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{ "url": "https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/api/list/[email protected]/email/6OOLL3YV4DLDOHU47P7MWCFIZD5LT7CX/?format=api", "mailinglist": "https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/api/list/[email protected]/?format=api", "message_id": "[email protected]", "message_id_hash": "6OOLL3YV4DLDOHU47P7MWCFIZD5LT7CX", "thread": "https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/api/list/[email protected]/thread/W27HVCEZGA5HF7NUIX26HUJ3UXQINXEF/?format=api", "sender": { "address": "bill (a) hsmicrowave.com", "mailman_id": "d7ecbf0c1df148f289f27dd7a8c37974", "emails": "https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/api/sender/d7ecbf0c1df148f289f27dd7a8c37974/emails/?format=api" }, "sender_name": "Bill Ress", "subject": "[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 464", "date": "2009-09-13T06:18:55Z", "parent": "https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/api/list/[email protected]/email/W27HVCEZGA5HF7NUIX26HUJ3UXQINXEF/?format=api", "children": [], "votes": { "likes": 0, "dislikes": 0, "status": "neutral" }, "content": "Hi Lou,\n\nThanks for taking your time to present the facts. While this takes you \naway from the important work at hand, it needed to be said.\n\nRegards...Bill - N6GHz\nARRISat Team Member\n\nLouis McFadin wrote:\n> It pains me to have to spend any energy answering all these comments \n> about the Suitsat-2 and AMSAT problems.\n> Here are the facts:\n> No flights were missed. The Russians and the ARISS team have been \n> working very hard to put together Suitsat-2 in a timely manner so that \n> we could catch a ride to ISS on a Progress mission. The Russians \n> declared the suit excess quite a while ago. The ISS is getting more \n> and more crowded since it is now crewed by six people.\n> There is a real problem with clearance around all the equipment on \n> ISS. It's to the point of becoming a safety hazard. Each side has a \n> finite amount of volume allocated.\n> The suits were seen as a safety hazard because of this crowdedness. \n> There wasn't a case of no one being notified. We all knew there was a \n> space problem.\n> It simply came down to a priority situation. Do you throw away \n> something that you need to keep and have spent an enormous amount of \n> money getting to ISS, or something that is very low on the priority? \n> It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where Suitsat fell on \n> that list.\n> In actuality this may have been a very good thing. We were having a \n> very difficult time trying to figure out how to properly attach the \n> solar panels to the suit so that they could properly power the \n> electronics. Now we will take the solar panels and form a satellite \n> enclosure around the electronics planned for Suitsat 2 and call it \n> ARISSat-1.\n> \n> We have been working very hard on designing this new configuration and \n> are making excellent progress due to some very hard working volunteers \n> both here in the U.S. and in Russia. I am sure the amount of work that \n> is going on will never be realized by most on this BB but it is \n> tremendous. What you hear about is only the tip of the iceberg. Not \n> because its a secret but because most of us don't take the time to \n> toot our horn. We should but thats the facts.\n> \n> The team has not had time to listen to this series of comments on the \n> BB because we are all dedicated to getting the project done in as fast \n> and reliable a way as we can.\n> I can tell you this is a very dedicated team and all are working hard \n> and doing their best to finish their tasks while keeping their jobs \n> and sanity. If you want names and more information come to the AMSAT \n> symposium and meet some of them.\n> \n> The Russians send up Progress resupply missions to ISS regularly so \n> there will be other chances to send up the new ARISSat-1 satellite.\n> There are at least four Russian EVAs planned for next year so there \n> will be other chances to deploy ARISSat-1 so not to fret. The most \n> important thing is to take the proper time to make sure it is done \n> right so it will work properly and safely.\n> \n> So those of you who have actual questions about the facts can send me \n> or Gould Smith a private e-mail and I will try to answer you with \n> facts. If you want to complain and not help, please don't send them to \n> me or the team. We are too busy trying our best to make it happen just \n> like we have been doing for many years on AMSAT, SAREX and ARISS \n> projects.\n> If you really do want to help, send me or any of the BOD a resume and \n> tell us how you can help.\n> \n> So I suggest you use this BB for it's intended purpose as being a way \n> to exchange information about satellite operations. Don't use it as a \n> way to pump your ego or to trash others.\n> \n> Let's don't loose sight of the true objectives here. Let's have fun \n> and leave a legacy for those coming after us that we will all be proud \n> of. My grandson just got his Ham license that makes me very proud!\n> \n> \n> \n> Lou McFadin\n> W5DID\n> AMSAT BOD\n> ARISS US Hardware manager\n> \n> \n> On Sep 12, 2009, at 11:10 PM, [email protected] wrote:\n> \n>> Send AMSAT-BB mailing list submissions to\n>> \[email protected]\n>>\n>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n>> \thttp://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n>> \[email protected]\n>>\n>> You can reach the person managing the list at\n>> \[email protected]\n>>\n>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\n>> than \"Re: Contents of AMSAT-BB digest...\"\n>>\n>>\n>> Today's Topics:\n>>\n>> 1. Re: Volunteered (Mark Lunday)\n>> 2. FN51 operations (Dave Webb KB1PVH)\n>> 3. AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009 (Mark L. Hammond)\n>> 4. Re: (Reporting web pages needing updates) (John P. Toscano)\n>> 5. Re: AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009 (Andrew Rich)\n>> 6. Re: Volunteered (Bill Ress)\n>> 7. Re: Volunteered (Rocky Jones)\n>> 8. Re: Volunteered ([email protected])\n>> 9. Re: Volunteered (Dale Hershberger)\n>> 10. Re: Volunteered (Rocky Jones)\n>> 11. Re: Volunteered (Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF)\n>> 12. Re: Volunteered (Kevin Smith)\n>> 13. Re: Volunteered (Rocky Jones)\n>> 14. Re: Volunteered (Andrew Rich)\n>>\n>>\n>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------\n>>\n>> Message: 1\n>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 16:50:30 -0400\n>> From: \"Mark Lunday\" <[email protected]>\n>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered\n>> To: \"'Rocky Jones'\" <[email protected]>, <[email protected]>,\n>> \t<[email protected]>\n>> Cc: [email protected], 'Amsat BB' <[email protected]>\n>> Message-ID: <[email protected]>\n>> Content-Type: text/plain;\tcharset=\"us-ascii\"\n>>\n>> Chiming in, after watching this go back and forth and feeling \n>> frustrated\n>> here.\n>>\n>> The issue here is about holding volunteers accountable as if they \n>> were paid\n>> staff. It's about expectations as well.\n>>\n>> Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off. \n>> What\n>> we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, \n>> anyway) have\n>> an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by\n>> full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that\n>> expectation is not reasonable (IMHO). None of the volunteers can \n>> provide\n>> that kind of support day-in and day-out. Holding volunteers to that\n>> standard is, in my opinion, a mistake.\n>>\n>> Having said that, what AMSAT volunteers have accomplished is SO FAR \n>> ABOVE\n>> what a normal volunteer organization achieves, that it BOGGLES THE \n>> MIND. I\n>> have been an AMSAT member for 18 months and active on satellites for \n>> about\n>> as long. To see what has been achieved by volunteers, spanning across\n>> geography, is AMAZING. The ability to ask ANY question about \n>> satellites in\n>> general and AMSAT in particular on this BB, and get an accurate \n>> response in\n>> a timely fashion is impressive. The collective intellectual capital \n>> and\n>> horsepower is deep and very valuable.\n>>\n>> And THAT'S the issue! We're so accustomed to outstanding \n>> performance on so\n>> many things with AMSAT that we start *expecting* above and beyond in \n>> all\n>> cases. That's not always realistic.\n>>\n>> I had a few 1:1 threads with some folks about this over the past few \n>> days,\n>> and I think we could address some of the problems if we had a paid \n>> position\n>> or two. I understand that this is being presented to the ARRL in the \n>> near\n>> future (additional funding support)\n>>\n>> Another side note: it sounds like more communication/interaction \n>> would help\n>> clarify some of these questions and concerns. Regular status \n>> reporting on\n>> progress for specific projects would help the community understand:\n>> (1) the progress\n>> (2) the risks\n>> (3) the level of effort provided by the volunteers\n>> (4) opportunities for additional input for addressing problems \n>> (leveraging\n>> some of that powerful intellectual capital and horsepower in our \n>> community).\n>>\n>>\n>> Meanwhile, as a project manager w/ PMP cert, Electrical Engineer, \n>> and a 35\n>> year ham with military background, I am raising my hand as a \n>> volunteer for\n>> helping with the planning of future AMSAT projects\n>>\n>> Mark Lunday\n>> WD4ELG\n>> Hillsborough, NC - FM06kb\n>> [email protected]\n>> http://wd4elg.net\n>> http://wd4elg.blogspot.com\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>> ------------------------------\n>>\n>> Message: 2\n>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:18:07 +0000\n>> From: \"Dave Webb KB1PVH\" <[email protected]>\n>> Subject: [amsat-bb] FN51 operations\n>> To: \"AMSAT BB\" <[email protected]>\n>> Message-ID:\n>> \t<1853931992-1252790287- \n>> cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-401973086- \n>> @bda400.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>\n>> \t\n>> Content-Type: text/plain\n>>\n>> Hello all,\n>>\n>> I have arrived at FN51 on Cape Cod. Unfortunately, it is raining, \n>> thundering, and a bit of lightning. I think it is best to hold off \n>> for a bit from waving my lightning rod at the sky.\n>> If things clear up a bit, I will give it a shot. The weather is \n>> supposed to be better tomorrow.\n>>\n>> 73,\n>>\n>> Dave KB1PVH\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry\n>>\n>>\n>> ------------------------------\n>>\n>> Message: 3\n>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:27:15 -0400\n>> From: \"Mark L. Hammond\" <[email protected]>\n>> Subject: [amsat-bb] AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009\n>> To: [email protected]\n>> Message-ID: <[email protected]>\n>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n>>\n>> Reloading of the satellite continues.\n>>\n>> From the front page of the AMSAT web page:\n>>\n>> AO-51 is off the air while the software reload is in progress. We \n>> hope to have it operational by the first of the week.\n>>\n>> AO-51 Command team\n>>\n>>\n>> 73,\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>> Mark L. Hammond [N8MH]\n>>\n>> ------------------------------\n>>\n>> Message: 4\n>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 16:46:06 -0500\n>> From: \"John P. Toscano\" <[email protected]>\n>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: (Reporting web pages needing updates)\n>> Cc: \"'Amsat BB'\" <[email protected]>\n>> Message-ID: <[email protected]>\n>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n>>\n>> Andrew Rich (Home) wrote:\n>>> No I meant\n>>>\n>>> [email protected]\n>>>\n>>> \" I found this page is old and needs to be deleted\"\n>>>\n>>> Many hands make light work\n>> Andrew: I think that the following solution will help you accomplish\n>> your goal...\n>>\n>> At the bottom of many pages of the AMSAT web site is a link entitled:\n>> \"Report a bug on this page\"\n>>\n>> Click on the link, and a form pops up. The form is pre-filled with the\n>> URL of the \"offending\" web page, i.e. the web page you were on at the\n>> time you clicked on the link. Fill in the rest of the form and click \n>> on\n>> the button labeled:\n>> Submit Report\n>>\n>> One of the questions on the form is \"Issue Type\", and the drop-down \n>> list\n>> include numerous choices, such as:\n>> -- malformed text\n>> -- broken link\n>> -- outdated information\n>> -- misspelling\n>> -- punctuation\n>> and several others. You don't even have to start up your email client;\n>> the form goes to the appropriate person when you click on the Submit \n>> button.\n>>\n>> If the page with a problem does not have one of these links on it, you\n>> could manually type in the following URL into your browser:\n>> http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/bugform.php\n>>\n>> The only problem with this is you will have to manually fill in the \n>> line\n>> on the form that specifies what web page is problematic. Of course,\n>> before you change to this URL, use your mouse to highlight the current\n>> URL (where the problem is located), hit Ctrl+C to copy the URL to the\n>> Windows Clipboard, then go to the bugform page, mouse or tab to that\n>> field, and hit Ctrl+V to paste in the URL. [My apologies in advance \n>> for\n>> giving you Windows-centric instructions if you are using a different \n>> OS\n>> family.]\n>>\n>> This seems even easier to me than an email alias to which you send\n>> problem reports, but maybe that's just me...\n>>\n>> But I clearly agree, a thousand pairs of eyes can find more errors and\n>> omissions than a single pair of eyes. www.nlrs.org (which I maintain)\n>> is comprised of over 4000 files, so I assume that www.amsat.org is \n>> much\n>> bigger!\n>>\n>> 73 de W0JT\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>> ------------------------------\n>>\n>> Message: 5\n>> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 07:51:59 +1000\n>> From: \"Andrew Rich\" <[email protected]>\n>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009\n>> To: <[email protected]>, \"Mark L. Hammond\" <[email protected]>\n>> Message-ID: <1E3E3D647EFE4E4E899F5249C789AC3B@home9e3111fa81>\n>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n>> \treply-type=original\n>>\n>> Vista probs huh\n>>\n>>\n>> ----------------------------------------------------------\n>> Andrew Rich\n>> Airways Technical Officer Grade 4\n>> Surveillance - RADAR ADS-B\n>> Amateur Radio Callsign VK4TEC\n>> email: [email protected]\n>> web: www.tech-software.net\n>> ----- Original Message -----\n>> From: \"Mark L. Hammond\" <[email protected]>\n>> To: <[email protected]>\n>> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 7:27 AM\n>> Subject: [amsat-bb] AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009\n>>\n>>\n>>> Reloading of the satellite continues.\n>>>\n>>> From the front page of the AMSAT web page:\n>>>\n>>> AO-51 is off the air while the software reload is in progress. We \n>>> hope to\n>>> have it operational by the first of the week.\n>>>\n>>> AO-51 Command team\n>>>\n>>>\n>>> 73,\n>>>\n>>>\n>>>\n>>> Mark L. Hammond [N8MH]\n>>> _______________________________________________\n>>> Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the \n>>> author.\n>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite \n>>> program!\n>>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n>>\n>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>> No virus found in this incoming message.\n>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com\n>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.92/2364 - Release Date: \n>> 09/11/09\n>> 17:51:00\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>> ------------------------------\n>>\n>> Message: 6\n>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:06:49 -0700\n>> From: Bill Ress <[email protected]>\n>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered\n>> To: Mark Lunday <[email protected]>\n>> Cc: [email protected], 'Amsat BB' <[email protected]>\n>> Message-ID: <[email protected]>\n>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n>>\n>> Hi Mark,\n>>\n>> Thanks for your comments and your offer to volunteer.\n>>\n>> Why don't you contact me off line and we can talk about your specific\n>> interests.\n>>\n>> Regards...Bill - N6GHz\n>>\n>> Mark Lunday wrote:\n>>> Chiming in, after watching this go back and forth and feeling \n>>> frustrated\n>>> here.\n>>>\n>>> The issue here is about holding volunteers accountable as if they \n>>> were paid\n>>> staff. It's about expectations as well.\n>>>\n>>> Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts \n>>> off. What\n>>> we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, \n>>> anyway) have\n>>> an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by\n>>> full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that\n>>> expectation is not reasonable (IMHO). None of the volunteers can \n>>> provide\n>>> that kind of support day-in and day-out. Holding volunteers to that\n>>> standard is, in my opinion, a mistake.\n>>>\n>>> Having said that, what AMSAT volunteers have accomplished is SO FAR \n>>> ABOVE\n>>> what a normal volunteer organization achieves, that it BOGGLES THE \n>>> MIND. I\n>>> have been an AMSAT member for 18 months and active on satellites \n>>> for about\n>>> as long. To see what has been achieved by volunteers, spanning \n>>> across\n>>> geography, is AMAZING. The ability to ask ANY question about \n>>> satellites in\n>>> general and AMSAT in particular on this BB, and get an accurate \n>>> response in\n>>> a timely fashion is impressive. The collective intellectual \n>>> capital and\n>>> horsepower is deep and very valuable.\n>>>\n>>> And THAT'S the issue! We're so accustomed to outstanding \n>>> performance on so\n>>> many things with AMSAT that we start *expecting* above and beyond \n>>> in all\n>>> cases. That's not always realistic.\n>>>\n>>> I had a few 1:1 threads with some folks about this over the past \n>>> few days,\n>>> and I think we could address some of the problems if we had a paid \n>>> position\n>>> or two. I understand that this is being presented to the ARRL in \n>>> the near\n>>> future (additional funding support)\n>>>\n>>> Another side note: it sounds like more communication/interaction \n>>> would help\n>>> clarify some of these questions and concerns. Regular status \n>>> reporting on\n>>> progress for specific projects would help the community understand:\n>>> (1) the progress\n>>> (2) the risks\n>>> (3) the level of effort provided by the volunteers\n>>> (4) opportunities for additional input for addressing problems \n>>> (leveraging\n>>> some of that powerful intellectual capital and horsepower in our \n>>> community).\n>>>\n>>>\n>>> Meanwhile, as a project manager w/ PMP cert, Electrical Engineer, \n>>> and a 35\n>>> year ham with military background, I am raising my hand as a \n>>> volunteer for\n>>> helping with the planning of future AMSAT projects\n>>>\n>>> Mark Lunday\n>>> WD4ELG\n>>> Hillsborough, NC - FM06kb\n>>> [email protected]\n>>> http://wd4elg.net\n>>> http://wd4elg.blogspot.com\n>>>\n>>>\n>>>\n>>>\n>>\n>>\n>> ------------------------------\n>>\n>> Message: 7\n>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:09:47 -0500\n>> From: Rocky Jones <[email protected]>\n>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered\n>> To: <[email protected]>, <[email protected]>, <[email protected]>\n>> Cc: [email protected], Amsat BB <[email protected]>\n>> Message-ID: <[email protected]>\n>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>>> Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts \n>>> off. What\n>>> we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, \n>>> anyway) have\n>>> an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by\n>>> full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that\n>>> expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).\n>> Mark.\n>>\n>> \"level of performance\".\n>>\n>> No one at least in their right mind would expect a \"volunteer\" to \n>> equal the work through put of a paid employee...\n>>\n>> For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can \n>> get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is \n>> expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...\n>>\n>> But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the \n>> tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into \n>> the pulpit in the first place.\n>>\n>> It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who \n>> professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is \n>> on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to \n>> meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.\n>>\n>> No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.\n>>\n>> Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links \n>> and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit \n>> more \"sophisticated\" but not all that much more...if for no other \n>> reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are \n>> well understood.\n>>\n>> Instead what happened is that the \"team\" put together a project so \n>> complicated that they missed their free launch.\n>>\n>> I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad \n>> management.\n>>\n>> That reality seems to bite some folks\n>>\n>> Robert WB5MZO\n>>\n>> _________________________________________________________________\n>> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.\n>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/\n>>\n>> ------------------------------\n>>\n>> Message: 8\n>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:05:07 +0000\n>> From: [email protected]\n>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered\n>> To: \"Rocky Jones\" <[email protected]>, [email protected],\n>> \[email protected], [email protected], \"Bill Ress\"\n>> \t<[email protected]>\n>> Cc: [email protected], amsat bb <[email protected]>\n>> Message-ID:\n>> \t<1167601682-1252796952- \n>> cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1812505125- \n>> @bda357.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>\n>> \t\n>> Content-Type: text/plain\n>>\n>> This is unadulterated bull shit made from whole cloth.\n>>\n>> We have a free launch just as we have always have. The russians, as \n>> is their right when they have command, decided with all the \n>> equipment modeled people coming up to toss all orlan suits without \n>> notice to us (and they owed us nothing).\n>>\n>> I would be the very last person to say AMSAT is above all criticism \n>> but you are clearly nor the spokesperson needed for the critics. \n>> Your notes are those of a person who wants to fiddle while he burns \n>> Rome. What is needed in my not so humble opinion is a spokesperson \n>> for the critics who is not perceived as full of animus.\n>>\n>> Bob\n>> N4HY LM\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry\n>>\n>> -----Original Message-----\n>> From: Rocky Jones <[email protected]>\n>>\n>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:09:47\n>> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>\n>> Cc: <[email protected]>; Amsat BB<[email protected]>\n>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>>> Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts \n>>> off. What\n>>> we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, \n>>> anyway) have\n>>> an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by\n>>> full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that\n>>> expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).\n>> Mark.\n>>\n>> \"level of performance\".\n>>\n>> No one at least in their right mind would expect a \"volunteer\" to \n>> equal the work through put of a paid employee...\n>>\n>> For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can \n>> get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is \n>> expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...\n>>\n>> But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the \n>> tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into \n>> the pulpit in the first place.\n>>\n>> It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who \n>> professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is \n>> on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to \n>> meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.\n>>\n>> No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.\n>>\n>> Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links \n>> and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit \n>> more \"sophisticated\" but not all that much more...if for no other \n>> reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are \n>> well understood.\n>>\n>> Instead what happened is that the \"team\" put together a project so \n>> complicated that they missed their free launch.\n>>\n>> I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad \n>> management.\n>>\n>> That reality seems to bite some folks\n>>\n>> Robert WB5MZO\n>>\n>> _________________________________________________________________\n>> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.\n>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/\n>> _______________________________________________\n>> Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the \n>> author.\n>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite \n>> program!\n>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>> ------------------------------\n>>\n>> Message: 9\n>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:21:43 -0700\n>> From: Dale Hershberger <[email protected]>\n>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered\n>> To: Rocky Jones <[email protected]>, amsat bbs <[email protected]>\n>> Cc: amsat bbs <[email protected]>\n>> Message-ID: <[email protected]>\n>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n>>\n>> Rocky Jones wrote:\n>>>\n>>>\n>>>> Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts \n>>>> off. What\n>>>> we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, \n>>>> anyway) have\n>>>> an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided \n>>>> by\n>>>> full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that\n>>>> expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).\n>>>>\n>>> Mark.\n>>>\n>>> \"level of performance\".\n>>>\n>>> No one at least in their right mind would expect a \"volunteer\" to \n>>> equal the work through put of a paid employee...\n>>>\n>>> For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can \n>>> get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is \n>>> expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...\n>>>\n>>> But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the \n>>> tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into \n>>> the pulpit in the first place.\n>>>\n>>> It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who \n>>> professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is \n>>> on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to \n>>> meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.\n>>>\n>>> No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.\n>>>\n>>> Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak \n>>> links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a \n>>> bit more \"sophisticated\" but not all that much more...if for no \n>>> other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure \n>>> are well understood.\n>>>\n>>> Instead what happened is that the \"team\" put together a project so \n>>> complicated that they missed their free launch.\n>>>\n>>> I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is \n>>> bad management.\n>>>\n>>> That reality seems to bite some folks\n>>>\n>>> Robert WB5MZO\n>>>\n>>> _________________________________________________________________\n>>> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.\n>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/\n>>> _______________________________________________\n>>> Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the \n>>> author.\n>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite \n>>> program!\n>>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n>>>\n>>>\n>> I really want to reply in good faith. It is very difficult in light \n>> of\n>> the nature the tone of the way this thread is going. I am a member of\n>> AMSAT and\n>> proud of it. The organization is made up of volunteers.....Read\n>> Volunteers! Things will go wrong.. When we have problems we look \n>> for\n>> the weak points and focus\n>> on the corrections that can be made.\n>>\n>> What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or\n>> managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the\n>> Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.\n>>\n>> If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal\n>> directly with them.\n>> The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then\n>> degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of \n>> AMSAT.\n>> We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good\n>> information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed\n>> to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point where \n>> it\n>> turns others off.\n>>\n>> I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion\n>>\n>> Dale - KL7XJ\n>>\n>>\n>> ------------------------------\n>>\n>> Message: 10\n>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 20:17:45 -0500\n>> From: Rocky Jones <[email protected]>\n>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered\n>> To: <[email protected]>, Amsat BB <[email protected]>\n>> Message-ID: <[email protected]>\n>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>> What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or\n>> managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the\n>>\n>> Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>> If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal\n>> directly with them.\n>>\n>> The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then\n>> degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of \n>> AMSAT.\n>>\n>> We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good\n>> information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed\n>>\n>> to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point where \n>> it\n>> turns others off.\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>> I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>> Dale - KL7XJ\n>>\n>> Dale. Pointing out errors in performance that are consistent is not \n>> bashing...and it doesnt matter if they are volunteers or paid staff.\n>>\n>> If they cannot deal with responsible criticism, and oddly enough no \n>> one has refuted the statement I made that 1) they missed a launch \n>> date and 2) in large measure because they bit off to large a \n>> project...\n>>\n>> instead all one gets is \"wow I am upset because you are pointing out \n>> flaws in my performance, I am a volunteer I work 16-18 hours a day \n>> and wow this is space\".\n>>\n>> No one is calling them stupid, indeed the only people who have blown \n>> their corks are those who dont have answers to reasonable questions.\n>>\n>> Robert WB5MZO\n>>\n>> _________________________________________________________________\n>> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.\n>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/\n>>\n>> ------------------------------\n>>\n>> Message: 11\n>> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 02:12:41 +0000\n>> From: Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF <[email protected]>\n>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered\n>> To: Amsat BB <[email protected]>\n>> Message-ID: <[email protected]>\n>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed\n>>\n>> It amazes me that this group does not have an owner/moderator/ \n>> administrator to stop/delete/kill all this worthless\n>> bitching.\n>>\n>> Rocky Jones wrote:\n>>>\n>>>\n>>>\n>>> What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or\n>>> managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the\n>>\n>> ------------------------------\n>>\n>> Message: 12\n>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:15:17 -0400\n>> From: Kevin Smith <[email protected]>\n>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered\n>> To: Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF <[email protected]>\n>> Cc: Amsat BB <[email protected]>\n>> Message-ID: <[email protected]>\n>> Content-Type: text/plain;\tcharset=us-ascii;\tformat=flowed;\tdelsp=yes\n>>\n>> Failing that can we at least stop feeding this troll.\n>>\n>> Kevin Smith\n>> N3HKQ\n>>\n>> On Sep 12, 2009, at 10:12 PM, Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF <[email protected]>\n>> wrote:\n>>\n>>> It amazes me that this group does not have an owner/moderator/\n>>> administrator to stop/delete/kill all this worthless\n>>> bitching.\n>>>\n>>> Rocky Jones wrote:\n>>>>\n>>>>\n>>>>\n>>>> What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or\n>>>> managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the\n>>> _______________________________________________\n>>> Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the\n>>> author.\n>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite\n>>> program!\n>>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n>>\n>> ------------------------------\n>>\n>> Message: 13\n>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:41:32 -0500\n>> From: Rocky Jones <[email protected]>\n>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered\n>> To: <[email protected]>, <[email protected]>,\n>> \t<[email protected]>, \t<[email protected]>, <[email protected]>\n>> Cc: [email protected], Amsat BB <[email protected]>\n>> Message-ID: <[email protected]>\n>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>>> We have a free launch just as we have always have. The russians, \n>>> as is their right when they have command, decided with all the \n>>> equipment modeled people coming up to toss all orlan suits without \n>>> notice to us (and they owed us nothing).\n>>>\n>> Bob. I am told by people at JSC that this is not an accurate \n>> statement.\n>>\n>> Robert WB5MZO\n>>\n>> _________________________________________________________________\n>> Bing brings you health info from trusted sources.\n>> http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1\n>>\n>> ------------------------------\n>>\n>> Message: 14\n>> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:19:04 +1000\n>> From: \"Andrew Rich\" <[email protected]>\n>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered\n>> To: \"Dale Hershberger\" <[email protected]>,\t\"Rocky Jones\"\n>> \t<[email protected]>, \"amsat bbs\" <[email protected]>\n>> Cc: amsat bbs <[email protected]>\n>> Message-ID: <670D13D572204184BDA77DF2B146F0A0@home9e3111fa81>\n>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n>> \treply-type=original\n>>\n>> http://php.opensourcecms.com/scripts/show.php?catid=all&cat=All%20Scripts\n>>\n>> CMS - kewl\n>>\n>> ----------------------------------------------------------\n>> Andrew Rich\n>> Airways Technical Officer Grade 4\n>> Surveillance - RADAR ADS-B\n>> Amateur Radio Callsign VK4TEC\n>> email: [email protected]\n>> web: www.tech-software.net\n>> ----- Original Message -----\n>> From: \"Dale Hershberger\" <[email protected]>\n>> To: \"Rocky Jones\" <[email protected]>; \"amsat bbs\" <[email protected] \n>> Cc: \"amsat bbs\" <[email protected]>\n>> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:21 AM\n>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered\n>>\n>>\n>>> Rocky Jones wrote:\n>>>>\n>>>>\n>>>>> Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off.\n>>>>> What\n>>>>> we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some, \n>>>>> anyway)\n>>>>> have\n>>>>> an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be \n>>>>> provided by\n>>>>> full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that\n>>>>> expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).\n>>>>>\n>>>> Mark.\n>>>>\n>>>> \"level of performance\".\n>>>>\n>>>> No one at least in their right mind would expect a \"volunteer\" to \n>>>> equal\n>>>> the work through put of a paid employee...\n>>>>\n>>>> For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool \n>>>> can get\n>>>> into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is \n>>>> expected\n>>>> to have three sermons a week ready to go...\n>>>>\n>>>> But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in \n>>>> the tools\n>>>> being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the \n>>>> pulpit\n>>>> in the first place.\n>>>>\n>>>> It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who\n>>>> professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is \n>>>> on...but\n>>>> for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a \n>>>> minimium\n>>>> level of competency and demonstrate that.\n>>>>\n>>>> No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.\n>>>>\n>>>> Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak \n>>>> links and\n>>>> then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more\n>>>> \"sophisticated\" but not all that much more...if for no other \n>>>> reason to\n>>>> make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well \n>>>> understood.\n>>>>\n>>>> Instead what happened is that the \"team\" put together a project so\n>>>> complicated that they missed their free launch.\n>>>>\n>>>> I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad\n>>>> management.\n>>>>\n>>>> That reality seems to bite some folks\n>>>>\n>>>> Robert WB5MZO\n>>>>\n>>>> _________________________________________________________________\n>>>> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.\n>>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/\n>>>> _______________________________________________\n>>>> Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the \n>>>> author.\n>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite\n>>>> program!\n>>>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n>>>>\n>>>>\n>>> I really want to reply in good faith. It is very difficult in \n>>> light of\n>>> the nature the tone of the way this thread is going. I am a member \n>>> of\n>>> AMSAT and\n>>> proud of it. The organization is made up of volunteers.....Read\n>>> Volunteers! Things will go wrong.. When we have problems we look \n>>> for\n>>> the weak points and focus\n>>> on the corrections that can be made.\n>>>\n>>> What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or\n>>> managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the\n>>> Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.\n>>>\n>>> If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal\n>>> directly with them.\n>>> The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then\n>>> degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of \n>>> AMSAT.\n>>> We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good\n>>> information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed\n>>> to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point \n>>> where it\n>>> turns others off.\n>>>\n>>> I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion\n>>>\n>>> Dale - KL7XJ\n>>> _______________________________________________\n>>> Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the \n>>> author.\n>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite \n>>> program!\n>>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n>>\n>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>> No virus found in this incoming message.\n>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com\n>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.94/2366 - Release Date: \n>> 09/12/09\n>> 17:50:00\n>>\n>>\n>>\n>> ------------------------------\n>>\n>> _______________________________________________\n>> Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the \n>> author.\n>> Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite \n>> program!\n>> http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n>>\n>>\n>> End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 464\n>> ****************************************\n> \n> _______________________________________________\n> Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author.\n> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!\n> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n> \n", "attachments": [] }