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{ "url": "https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/api/list/[email protected]/email/AR7EVGDAXOJ4JOYJTPHKWRMTFUY2MYGY/", "mailinglist": "https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/api/list/[email protected]/", "message_id": "[email protected]", "message_id_hash": "AR7EVGDAXOJ4JOYJTPHKWRMTFUY2MYGY", "thread": "https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/api/list/[email protected]/thread/AR7EVGDAXOJ4JOYJTPHKWRMTFUY2MYGY/", "sender": { "address": "k0vty (a) juno.com", "mailman_id": "69d7c9bb693a4435bee46454dd0afb25", "emails": "https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/api/sender/69d7c9bb693a4435bee46454dd0afb25/emails/" }, "sender_name": "[email protected]", "subject": "[amsat-bb] Re: Solar Power (I was wrong)", "date": "2009-10-02T17:50:07Z", "parent": null, "children": [], "votes": { "likes": 0, "dislikes": 0, "status": "neutral" }, "content": "Afternoon Sir:\n\nI have enjoyed your postings on the BB.\nHowever this time I have to ask a question of you.\nThe term Grid-Tie for the purpose of Solar efficiencies has me stumped\nIf you would be so kind I would like an explination.\nAs the old saying goes , \"when one in the class does not understand, bet\non 5 more in the same conditon\"\nAdditionally if there is data on where such a system is currently\navailable, that might help.\n\nBest Regards\n \nJoseph Murray ( K0VTY)\nAmsat # 860\nAmsat Coordinator NE.\n=========================\nOn Fri, 2 Oct 2009 09:03:18 -0400 (EDT) \"Bob Bruninga \"\n<[email protected]> writes:\n> > My simple math says it'll take almost \n> > 16 years to be reimbursed on a $30k system.\n> \n> Its more like 5.5 years.. I'll show you my numbers for Maryland:\n> \n> > Initial outlay: $30,000\n> > US tax credit: 5%\n> \n> No, Federal Credit is 30%\n> \n> > US reimbursement: $1500 (this is not \n> > real money, but a reduction in taxable income)\n> \n\n> at 30% it is $9,000 and it is a *credit*, not a deduction, so that \n> is cash in your pocket off the tax you pay.\n> \n> Then most states, give either similar Tax *credits* or grants, in my \n> state it would be about $4,000 check, payable to me when \n> installation is complete. Then the county makes up the difference \n> to 50% of the cost of the system.\n> \n> > Total: $28,500 \n> \n> No, here, my net outlay is reduced to 50% or only $15,000.\n> \n> > Savings per year in electricity: $1800 \n> \n> That, plus Solar Energy Renewable credits paid to you by the power \n> company or brokers at about $250 per KW capacity for a 4 Kw system = \n> $1000 per year. They buy this credit from you so that they dont \n> have to build solar systems. By paying you this credit, they get to \n> subtract the capacity from the amount they are required to build by \n> the year 2020? or whatever. So add the two and you get a payback of \n> $2800/year.\n> \n> > $30k / 1.8k = 15.83 years\n> \n> * My numbers show $15k / 2.8 = 5.3 years (even less if electric \n> rates go up)\n> \n> > One of the points of the post, I think, \n> > was to make ourselves less dependent on \n> > foreign oil..\n> \n> > Personally, I do not think PV cells are \n> > that efficient. To get the 12VDC I need \n> > to power my remote... repeaters, I...\n> > lose more than 30% in generated heat.\n> \n> Yes! That was my mistake too. Energy Storage in batteries is very \n> inefficient. About 30% or more losses. But GRID-TIE systems are \n> 95% efficient PLUS you are selling the power to the grid at PEAK \n> rates in the middle of the day, and buying it back at discout rates \n> at night. Net effect is not a loss, but a GAIN. Of course, this \n> does not help at a repeater, but do not carryover these losses to a \n> Grid Tie system where it does not apply...\n> \n> > they only last so long. \n> > Twenty years, tops maybe? \n> > Do they really pay for themselves?\n> \n> You bet for sure! Compare that to a $30,000 car, which is junk in \n> 10 years and you have nothing. The solar system cost $30,000 \n> (actually $15K) and you MAKE $15k in the first 5 years, and for the \n> next 15, you make $45,000, and then your array has decayed to maybe \n> only 80% of its original life... but it is still MAKING money at \n> then CURRENT rates...\n> \n> The 20 and 30 year life does not mean they die, it is just that \n> their power has dropped by XX%... Im guessing that the threshold is \n> 80%?\n> \n> \n> \n> > in California. .. the power company is \n> > only required to pay you the WHOLESALE \n> > cost of electricity. This amounts to 3 \n> > to 4 cents per kw-hr.\n> \n> Ah, but if you pay 15 cents per KWH during the day to run your home, \n> and you have enough solar to balance that, then the payback to you \n> is still 15 cents per KwH. Its only the excess you generate that \n> pays you the low rates.\n> \n> The key word is \"net metering\". In other states with net-metering, \n> they have to give you the full 15 cents credit for the excess power \n> you generate. But in most all cases, you cannot beuild up credits \n> beyond a year cycle. \n> \n> > ... bird poop to cut the efficiency.\n> > be prepared to get on the roof every \n> > month or so to clean the panels.\n> \n> AMEN. PV cells are in series. One big splat that covers one CELL, \n> reduces the power of the ENTIRE PANEL. A single Flag Pole shadow \n> across a roof, can reduce the power of the entire roof array \n> tremendously...\n> \n> >> if you sell back over 50,000 watts \n> >> of power you will incur additional taxes, \n> >> ... you are considered a \"generator\" \n> \n> I assume that is NET. To build up that much excess capacity would \n> require an array on my house covering 3 times the roof area I have \n> available. And it would make no sense to build an array that big, \n> since you aleady know that you get paid peanuts for excess net power \n> (wholesale). \n> \n> >> Lets say you were able to generate \n> >> and sell back 100,000 watts to the \n> >> utility company.\n> \n> Yes, that is my annual consumption. But my array will be sized so \n> that I generate 100,000 in that same year. SO the NET \"sell back\" \n> is ZERO. And I got all my electricity for FREE that year. You are \n> right, that if I make my array TWICE as big as I need, and spent \n> about $100,000 for it, that then, I would generate twice the \n> electricity I need, and would not get paid but probably HALF the \n> rate for it PLUS the taxes you mentino. Oh, and that array would \n> coer 8,000 square feet almost an Acre... So I would not worry about \n> a homeower making the mistake of building too big a system...\n> \n> >>> > 1) Solar panels (PV) are 1% of what they cost in 1970\n> >>> 2) PV dropped 40% this year due to 2007 Energy Boom and 2009 \n> economic bust\n> >>> 4) $5,000 to $20,000 tax and cash back incentives for YOU\n> >>> 5) Grid-tie systems operate at 95% efficiency compared to 70% of \n> battery systems\n> >>> 6) Local electric rates DOUBLED in the last 2 years\n> >>> 7) Laws require utilities to pay you the same peak rates they \n> charge you.\n> >>> 8) Solar Energy credits can gain an additional $275 per 1Kw \n> system per year\n> >>> 9) Payback is at least 10% per year or better\n> >>> 10) The same money in the bank gets 1% interest\n> \n> _______________________________________________\n> Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the \n> author.\n> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite \n> program!\n> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n> \n> \n \n____________________________________________________________\n$5,000 a Week For Life\nPublishers Clearing House winner annouced on NBC. Enter now.\nhttp://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=ivXBCqEdejvr9UOvcHT2YAAAJ1CmZcBa4CCYwgQDaZ1FJwo1AAQAAAAFAAAAAArXIzwAAAMlAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAkBmQAAAAA=\n", "attachments": [] }