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{ "url": "https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/api/list/[email protected]/email/BK24477KXS5UP6ZJ56SNK3NHU2ENV4IW/?format=api", "mailinglist": "https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/api/list/[email protected]/?format=api", "message_id": "CAM42371ZxBrpty-zcxaATK32A0SsKBDTMY-oaRvqFxc9Jzbh4w@mail.gmail.com", "message_id_hash": "BK24477KXS5UP6ZJ56SNK3NHU2ENV4IW", "thread": "https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/api/list/[email protected]/thread/BK24477KXS5UP6ZJ56SNK3NHU2ENV4IW/?format=api", "sender": { "address": "marinesvcs (a) gmail.com", "mailman_id": "dd47a6c53e7644b98e5ba152cad3fa2c", "emails": "https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/api/sender/dd47a6c53e7644b98e5ba152cad3fa2c/emails/?format=api" }, "sender_name": "Paul F. Merrill", "subject": "Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read (Bruce Perens)", "date": "2020-07-14T04:51:46Z", "parent": null, "children": [], "votes": { "likes": 0, "dislikes": 0, "status": "neutral" }, "content": ">\n> Bruce - I responded to you privately - it took effort on your part to\n> choose to add the entire group to your reply. By doing so, you've\n> extablished, for me at least, your level of trustworthiness and integrity\n> in this discussion.\n\n\n Paul\n\n> ----------------------------------------------------------------------\n>\n> Message: 1\n> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 11:09:12 -0700\n> From: Bruce Perens <[email protected]>\n> To: \"Paul F. Merrill\" <[email protected]>, AMSAT BB\n> <[email protected]>\n> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read\n> Message-ID:\n> <\n> CAK2MWOv13HXELW1kRJiZWGo2GUTBXgOV39atn5xVWY5SrKztzw@mail.gmail.com>\n> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"UTF-8\"\n>\n> The point I was trying to make was that by posing Robert's Rules as the\n> tool of unsavory individuals, you seem to pose all rules that way. I think\n> we should both agree that corporate directors should know their bylaws. It\n> was my experience that Clayton did not read them before taking on operating\n> the AMSAT election. AMSAT had to be told that it had a responsibility to\n> provide addresses to the candidates for campaigning. The bylaws also call\n> for the organizations publications to be available for campaigning - which\n> is still not being fulfilled.\n>\n> Thanks\n>\n> Bruce\n>\n> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 12:31 AM Paul F. Merrill <[email protected]>\n> wrote:\n>\n> > I know what they are. It was an example, perhaps too subtle, of the\n> > continually-plumbed depths of human dipshittery.\n> >\n> > On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 23:01 Bruce Perens <[email protected]> wrote:\n> >\n> >> Paul,\n> >>\n> >> Roberts Rules are regarding parliamentary procedure. AMSAT's bylaws are\n> >> at\n> >>\n> https://www.amsat.org/bylaws-of-the-radio-amateur-satellite-corporation/\n> >> . They do not specify parliamentary procedure. They are about\n> >> responsibilities of a director, elections, etc. And if you have the\n> choice,\n> >> Roberts is an antique, good parliamentarians use Sturgis.\n> >>\n> >> Bruce\n> >>\n> >> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:12 PM Paul F. Merrill via AMSAT-BB <\n> >> [email protected]> wrote:\n> >>\n> >>> I agree that this mailing list has strayed from its strongest\n> >>> contribution:\n> >>> satellite information, discussion, and mentoring.\n> >>>\n> >>> I come from, and have been on the BOD of, a professional organization\n> >>> for a\n> >>> number of years now.\n> >>>\n> >>> FWIW, I know too well that an organization often lawyers up to protect\n> >>> itself, and in our issues, our attorney was engaged to act solely on\n> >>> behalf\n> >>> of the Organization and not necessarily current management.\n> >>>\n> >>> This thread has turned in to a long, ugly diatribe filled with\n> >>> accusations,\n> >>> counter-accusations, and painfully-obvious shills. I am a\n> >>> recently-renewed\n> >>> member who doesn?t have a dog in the fight, so I just want what?s best\n> >>> for\n> >>> AMSAT.\n> >>>\n> >>> Sadly, the stereotypes are starting to show - the members who\n> contribute\n> >>> nothing but want to tear down those ?In power,? the members who\n> >>> contribute\n> >>> nothing and don?t want anyone to make waves, and the few who actually\n> do\n> >>> anything. As a number of people have commented, working in a\n> non-profit\n> >>> or\n> >>> unpaid leadership role is utterly thankless, which is lost on many\n> >>> people -\n> >>> especially those who have never labored in this sort of endeavor.\n> >>>\n> >>> My favorite story from our times of trouble is when our Parliamentarian\n> >>> said, ?Roberts Rules are the last refuge of a scoundrel. Grown men and\n> >>> women should be able to comport themselves reasonably...but then I?d be\n> >>> out\n> >>> of a job.? I?m taking a little license with his exact words, but the\n> >>> sentiment, along with my experience, formed my native distrust of those\n> >>> who\n> >>> are right and everyone and everything before them is wrong.\n> So...there?s\n> >>> my bias. I will examine that, and all the information I can before I\n> >>> vote. I hope everyone else will take the time and expend the effort to\n> >>> vote as intelligently as they can.\n> >>>\n> >>> My overriding guidance to my Association is that we contribute to the\n> >>> group\n> >>> so that we all benefit from the group. A strong organization should\n> >>> outlive us.\n> >>>\n> >>> Personally, I can?t wait to vote and hopefully put a fork in this.\n> >>>\n> >>> Paul / W7IV\n> >>>\n> >>>\n> >>>\n> >>> ????????-\n> >>>\n> >>> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 19:27:24 -0700\n> >>> From: \"Daron Wilson\" <[email protected]>\n> >>> To: \"'AMSAT BB'\" <[email protected]>\n> >>> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read\n> >>> Message-ID: <00b501d658bd$26119cc0$7234d640$@org>\n> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"utf-8\"\n> >>>\n> >>> Is there a bulletin board that discusses amateur radio satellites\n> >>> operations still? Asking for a friend. This is getting old.\n> >>>\n> >>>\n> >>> Daron N7HQR\n> >>>\n> >> _______________________________________________\n> >>> Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available\n> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.\n> >>> Opinions expressed\n> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views\n> of\n> >>> AMSAT-NA.\n> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite\n> >>> program!\n> >>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n> >>>\n> >>\n>\n>\n> ------------------------------\n>\n> Message: 2\n> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:13:46 -0700\n> From: Bruce Perens <[email protected]>\n> To: AMSAT BB <[email protected]>\n> Subject: [amsat-bb] Why we are having this big unpleasant argument on\n> your satellite mailing list\n> Message-ID:\n> <\n> CAK2MWOsL+EO6q3QnLjL395uSeLZR8QnkUuD9q3nJ+O4e7Kvytw@mail.gmail.com>\n> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"UTF-8\"\n>\n> Most of you are members of AMSAT. IMO the organization has some serious\n> problems, and as members it is your duty to steer the organization with\n> your votes. That means that you should remain aware of what is going on and\n> you should make an informed vote. The satellite discussions go on, mostly\n> uninterrupted, all year. A short break for politics is not unreasonable,\n> and acrimonious discussion is to be expected when we take that break.\n>\n> Organisations are run by people who would not be doing the work if they did\n> not have strong emotions about it. And they all have their own failings.\n> Unfortunately, volunteer non-profit directors (and many public ones in big\n> corporations) never learn a critical skill of democracy: *how to deal\n> properly with opposition. *That is the root of what we are arguing about\n> now. Opposition are not the enemy! Yet, they are clearly being treated as\n> such. They are simply people who would reform the organization or take it\n> in a different direction from the incumbents.\n>\n> In this case, Michelle and Patrick, before they were elected, were the\n> loyal opposition - dedicated to a better organization, and deeply troubled\n> by the decisions and conduct of the incumbent board. The incumbent's\n> response was not to work with the opposition, but to hunker down and use\n> lawyers. To the incumbent's great distress, the very same people got sent\n> to the board by the membership! Leading to more lawyers. IMO the incumbents\n> should have read this as a signal from the membership, rather than doubling\n> down their resistance.\n>\n> The sad reality is that the newly-elected directors have never been allowed\n> to function as directors. You should be concerned, since they are the\n> people whom you elected to represent you. The main means used to disable\n> your elected representatives has been refusal by the incumbents to hold\n> board meetings. This refusal is almost total, with exactly *one* meeting\n> being held after the organization's annual convention.\n>\n> The second means used to disenfranchise the newly-elected directors was\n> that the incumbents withheld information which a director would generally\n> be expected to have access to. As it happened, this information was at\n> least in part discussion of those very same people, and contracting of\n> legal counsel in a process against them.\n>\n> Every board has the right to legal counsel. But it's expensive, and must be\n> used wisely. This was not a wise use. A wise use would have been to engage\n> the opposition rather than to hunker down.\n>\n> One very large cause of all of this is that the same people have been\n> running AMSAT for a very long time, and it becomes an echo chamber after a\n> while - the us-vs-them mentality of the board vs. the opposition - but\n> really the board vs. everyone else - becomes self-reinforcing.\n>\n> This is obviously wrong for the organization. The solution is simple, and\n> every organization needs it: *regular turn-over of the people in the\n> organization's leadership. *Not the stratification that we currently have.\n>\n> You can fix this by electing more new blood to the board.\n>\n> Thanks\n>\n> Bruce\n>\n> --\n> Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually\n> :-)\n>\n>\n> ------------------------------\n>\n> Message: 3\n> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:06:31 -0400\n> From: Efrem Acosta <[email protected]>\n> To: [email protected]\n> Subject: [amsat-bb] A question\n> Message-ID: <[email protected]>\n> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\n>\n> Is it true all posts now on this board are being held for approval by a\n> moderator?\n>\n>\n>\n> 73 De W2CZ\n> Sent from my iPhone\n>\n>\n> ------------------------------\n>\n> Message: 4\n> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:45:19 -0700\n> From: Bruce Perens <[email protected]>\n> To: David Swanson <[email protected]>\n> Cc: AMSAT BB <[email protected]>\n> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list\n> Message-ID:\n> <CAK2MWOv-v8yj5NwO7XKz=\n> [email protected]>\n> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"UTF-8\"\n>\n> David,\n>\n> My tweet was NOT deleted, and is still on twitter at\n> https://twitter.com/BrucePerens/status/1154844208458416128\n> As stated repeatedly, both by myself and Michelle, I did not handle the\n> mailing list, she did. Which was 100% her right as a candidate.\n>\n> Thanks\n>\n> Bruce\n>\n> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:26 AM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <\n> [email protected]> wrote:\n>\n> > It's always fun to remind folks tripping over their own feat lying that\n> the\n> > internet is forever. From a Bruce Perens Tweet on July 13, 2020:\n> >\n> > \"Please see my letter on the web, or the paper copy I've mailed to\n> everyone\n> > one of you\".\n> >\n> > Of course the original tweet was deleted, but the wayback machine never\n> > forgets. Don't Believe me? http://druidnetworks.com/2020-07-13.png\n> >\n> > If you still think the membership list wasn't compromised, I just heard\n> > Director Thompson will be auctioning off their ocean front property in\n> > Arizona to all the members this year to raise funds for their microwave,\n> > digital only, strictly open source crowd funded, vegan, social justice\n> > aware cubesat launch to Proxima Centauri. Of course this launch will only\n> > come after 10 years of ground station development, but fueled with enough\n> > hopes, dreams and promises it will become a reality!\n> >\n> > For the rest of us who actually want to keep amateur radio in (real)\n> space\n> > and are disgusted at the violations of privacy that occured by 3rd\n> parties\n> > working to get Director Thompson and Director Stoddard elected, well, you\n> > should know what to do.\n> >\n> > -Dave, KG5CCI\n> >\n> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:24 AM Michelle Thompson <\n> > [email protected]> wrote:\n> >\n> > > No database went anywhere except to candidates. This is allowed in the\n> > > bylaws.\n> > >\n> > > Then, an automated bulk mail printing server was used. I recommended\n> the\n> > > company to Brennan Price for this year's mailing. Good service,\n> > > inexpensive.\n> > >\n> > > Return addresses don't magically transfer information.\n> > >\n> > > -Michelle W5NYV\n> > >\n> > >\n> > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 04:32 David Swanson <[email protected]>\n> > wrote:\n> > >\n> > >> Spin Spin Spin. The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the\n> > AMSAT\n> > >> member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity\n> for\n> > the\n> > >> purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address,\n> yet\n> > ORI\n> > >> sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT\n> > >> members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any attempt\n> > to\n> > >> explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director Thompson\n> > about\n> > >> the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As I\n> > keep\n> > >> saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of\n> > >> reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and\n> > this\n> > >> community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign.\n> > >>\n> > >> -Dave, KG5CCI\n> > >>\n> > >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <\n> > >> [email protected]> wrote:\n> > >>\n> > >>> Yes, I can.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly\n> > clarified\n> > >>> before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark\n> > asked\n> > >>> me about it, as part of the record.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> He ran the election.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350\n> > words,\n> > >>> would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not include\n> > >>> links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of July\n> > >>> holiday with a deadline of the 7th.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> This is different than any election before, where statements went\n> > >>> directly\n> > >>> to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and no\n> > one\n> > >>> from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection\n> themselves)\n> > >>> had\n> > >>> any control over the content of their challengers' statements.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four\n> challengers)\n> > >>> already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up\n> six\n> > >>> weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link\n> to.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing\n> > list,\n> > >>> and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and distributed\n> it\n> > >>> widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios\n> and\n> > >>> statements.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said yes.\n> > >>> Since\n> > >>> he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted\n> the\n> > >>> return address to not be his private home address, but a business\n> > >>> address.\n> > >>> That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I\n> used\n> > >>> his\n> > >>> preferred return address.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so\n> > >>> undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I\n> sent\n> > >>> the\n> > >>> letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not\n> > included\n> > >>> with the ballots mailed out, at all.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the\n> > primary\n> > >>> factor. We were running against well-known people.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past and\n> > >>> seemed\n> > >>> set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only ballot.\n> > >>> Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need\n> to\n> > be\n> > >>> mailed out on paper. Paper was required.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting,\n> in\n> > >>> March, for a bylaws committee.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of\n> > >>> organizations doing electronic voting with working published bylaws.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot\n> about\n> > >>> the\n> > >>> return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was\n> commonly\n> > >>> done\n> > >>> in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to\n> use\n> > >>> AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce was\n> > >>> speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. *That*\n> > >>> would\n> > >>> be improper.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return\n> > address.\n> > >>> We\n> > >>> were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have\n> > time\n> > >>> or\n> > >>> funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short\n> > >>> notice.\n> > >>> The printer required a real return address.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me because\n> I\n> > >>> contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion.\n> That\n> > >>> is a\n> > >>> neat story in and of itself,, for another time.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for postage.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the board\n> > that\n> > >>> signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce\n> > >>> publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark brought\n> it\n> > >>> up\n> > >>> at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address\n> > >>> pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the\n> > record.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate\n> > >>> twisting\n> > >>> of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate statements\n> > out\n> > >>> to\n> > >>> voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and Bruce\n> > was\n> > >>> very generous in writing a cover letter.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for\n> election\n> > >>> purposes.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce\n> Perens,\n> > >>> and\n> > >>> ORI.\n> > >>>\n> > >>> -Michelle W5NYV\n> > >>>\n> > >>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <[email protected]>\n> > >>> wrote:\n> > >>>\n> > >>> > Hello All,\n> > >>> >\n> > >>> > In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we\n> > all\n> > >>> > received as members.\n> > >>> >\n> > >>> >\n> > >>> >\n> > >>>\n> >\n> https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Leadership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf\n> > >>> >\n> > >>> > I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed\n> > >>> before.\n> > >>> >\n> > >>> > \"AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses\n> to\n> > >>> > Open Research Institute.\"\n> > >>> >\n> > >>> > Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a\n> > >>> serious\n> > >>> > breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information\n> lost?\n> > >>> > was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they\n> > say\n> > >>> > \"out in the wind\"?\n> > >>> >\n> > >>> > Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack\n> how\n> > >>> > ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it\n> something\n> > >>> > that was procured online?\n> > >>> >\n> > >>> > AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what\n> > it\n> > >>> > found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening\n> in\n> > >>> > the future.\n> > >>> >\n> > >>> >\n> > >>> > I look forward to an answer\n> > >>> >\n> > >>> > 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623\n> > >>> >\n> > >>> >\n> > >>> >\n> > >>> >\n> > >>> >\n> > >>> >\n> > >>> > _______________________________________________\n> > >>> > Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum\n> > available\n> > >>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.\n> > >>> Opinions\n> > >>> > expressed\n> > >>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official\n> views\n> > >>> of\n> > >>> > AMSAT-NA.\n> > >>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite\n> > >>> program!\n> > >>> > Subscription settings:\n> > https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n> > >>> >\n> > >>> _______________________________________________\n> > >>> Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum\n> available\n> > >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.\n> > >>> Opinions expressed\n> > >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views\n> > of\n> > >>> AMSAT-NA.\n> > >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite\n> > >>> program!\n> > >>> Subscription settings:\n> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n> > >>>\n> > >>\n> > _______________________________________________\n> > Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available\n> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.\n> Opinions\n> > expressed\n> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of\n> > AMSAT-NA.\n> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite\n> program!\n> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n> >\n>\n>\n> --\n> Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually\n> :-)\n>\n>\n> ------------------------------\n>\n> Message: 5\n> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 03:04:44 +0700\n> From: Kenneth P Alexander <[email protected]>\n> To: Steve Kristoff <[email protected]>\n> Cc: AMSAT -BB <[email protected]>\n> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list\n> Message-ID:\n> <CAPOM0d=\n> [email protected]>\n> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"UTF-8\"\n>\n> It's not that simple Brian. If you follow that line of thinking then\n> people by the thousands would be renouncing their American citizenship\n> because of the current shitshow in Washington, but I haven't heard of that\n> happening.\n>\n> The best thing to do is stay in the game, sort through the hysteria and\n> misinformation and exercise your right to vote when the time comes. Then\n> you can move Amsat back to becoming an organization you'll want to remain a\n> part of.\n>\n> Ok, back to sleep for me!\n>\n> 73,\n>\n> Ken Alexander, VE3HLS\n> So Phisai, Thailand\n> Blog: bueng-ken.com\n>\n>\n> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 2:52 AM Steve Kristoff via AMSAT-BB <\n> [email protected]> wrote:\n>\n> >\n> > I worked a satellite just this morning. They are still up there. Just\n> have\n> > to step away from the computer and turn on the radio.\n> >\n> > Steve Ai9IN\n> >\n> >\n> > ----- Original Message -----\n> > From: Brian Karcher via AMSAT-BB ([email protected])\n> > Date: 07/13/20 12:10\n> > To: [email protected], [email protected]\n> > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list\n> >\n> > I thought being a member of AMSAT was about keeping amateur radio in\n> > space, learning about satellites and for some of us working amateur radio\n> > satellites in space. Since the last election AMSAT seems to be about\n> > nothing but politics and misinformation. In my opinion AMSAT was a lot\n> > more fun to be apart of before the last election. All the politics and\n> > misinformation drives people away from AMSAT and is not good for the\n> > organization. I have been told in the past by one of the new board\n> members\n> > that all of this is necessary for change to happen. I don't see that\n> AMSAT\n> > has to go through some fundamental change or movement. I am tired of the\n> > new AMSAT since the last election. I am seriously considering not\n> renewing\n> > my membership and I know plenty of other that are considering the same.\n> > When will all of this end so we can start enjoying AMSAT again and\n> working\n> > satellites?\n> >\n> > Brian D. Karcher\n> > KG5GJT\n> >\n> > >\n> >\n> > _______________________________________________\n> > Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available\n> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.\n> Opinions\n> > expressed\n> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of\n> > AMSAT-NA.\n> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite\n> program!\n> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n> >\n>\n>\n> ------------------------------\n>\n> Message: 6\n> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:23:41 -0500\n> From: David Swanson <[email protected]>\n> To: Bruce Perens <[email protected]>\n> Cc: AMSAT BB <[email protected]>\n> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list\n> Message-ID:\n> <\n> CANq+eyV985yF4XZAmiZ0oifyutc+nGosE8RgpC0rZjtuC8h6SA@mail.gmail.com>\n> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"UTF-8\"\n>\n> By your own words, it was YOUR letter, in a letter YOU sent. No matter how\n> many times you try and repeat the same line now - you've already proven\n> yourself to be a fraud.\n>\n> And by the way, people often violate the rules for stupid and unnecassary\n> reasons. It's very rarely the big lie you get caught in, it's all the\n> smaller ones you use to cover the big one up.\n>\n> -Dave, KG5CCI\n>\n> >\n>\n>\n> ------------------------------\n>\n> Message: 7\n> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:29:50 -0700\n> From: Fernando Ramirez <[email protected]>\n> To: Daniel Velez <[email protected]>\n> Cc: AMSAT -BB <[email protected]>\n> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] when is the election being discussed?\n> Message-ID:\n> <\n> CAGHXx8jLoX5ADt7jDHfkh-OOBnH3zWFukA8oAHT-0R3Fq9O3Fw@mail.gmail.com>\n> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"UTF-8\"\n>\n> If you joined our renewed before July 1st, you will be getting a ballot\n> after July 15.\n>\n> Saludos\n> Fernando, KF7R\n>\n> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 1:26 PM Daniel Velez via AMSAT-BB <\n> [email protected]>\n> wrote:\n>\n> > I joined in June but I haven't seen any ballot info.\n> > 73 de Dan\n> > _______________________________________________\n> > Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available\n> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.\n> Opinions\n> > expressed\n> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of\n> > AMSAT-NA.\n> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite\n> program!\n> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n> >\n>\n>\n> ------------------------------\n>\n> Message: 8\n> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:33:45 -0400\n> From: Arthur Feller <[email protected]>\n> To: Michelle Thompson <[email protected]>\n> Cc: AMSAT BB <[email protected]>\n> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-NA, another perspective\n> Message-ID: <[email protected]>\n> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8\n>\n> AMSAT Members:\n>\n> We?re going around in circles, getting nowhere fast. No resolution in\n> sight; only repetition, irritation, and turning away new and renewing\n> members. Not constructive.\n>\n> Much as these subjects need to be and should be discussed, may I suggest\n> taking this thread offline?\n>\n> I?m willing to facilitate an offline discussion.\n>\n> 73, art?..\n> W4ART Arlington VA\n> LM-113\n>\n> To thrive in life, you need three bones: a wish bone, a back bone, and a\n> funny bone.\n> - Reba McEntire\n>\n> http://afeller.us <http://afeller.us/>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n> ------------------------------\n>\n> Message: 9\n> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 20:35:14 +0000 (UTC)\n> From: GEO Badger <[email protected]>\n> To: AMSAT BB <[email protected]>\n> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-NA, another perspective\n> Message-ID: <[email protected]>\n> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8\n>\n> I believe that all 501(c)(3) orgs must hold at least one BOD meeting per\n> year or it is in violation of the incorporation rules and the org will risk\n> losing their tax exempt status.\n> 3 Annual Requirements Every Nonprofit Should Know\n>\n> |\n> |\n> |\n> | | |\n>\n> |\n>\n> |\n> |\n> | |\n> 3 Annual Requirements Every Nonprofit Should Know\n>\n> Congratulations, you?ve received 501(c)(3) status, so now what!? PAPERWORK\n> AND MEETINGS! And also working for th...\n> |\n>\n> |\n>\n> |\n>\n>\n>\n> ---??\n> Ciao baby, catch you on the flip side??\n> 73 de W3AB/GEO ????\n>\n> http://www.w3ab.org\n>\n> You can say \"over\", you can say \"out\", you just can't say \"over and out\".\n>\n>\n> ------------------------------\n>\n> Message: 10\n> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:13:20 -0700\n> From: Bruce Perens <[email protected]>\n> To: David Swanson <[email protected]>\n> Cc: AMSAT BB <[email protected]>\n> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list\n> Message-ID:\n> <CAK2MWOvcy8V-UUYKEi9QYKuB5p=\n> [email protected]>\n> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"UTF-8\"\n>\n> OK, Dave, you were not born yesterday :-) As I have said, I never touched\n> the mailing list, and never had to. I contributed $500 for postage, the\n> rest was provided by the candidates. But if I *had* touched the mailing\n> list, what nefarious things would I have done with it? You are mostly all\n> listed on QRZ, etc. Am I the guy sending you those mails about how Ed\n> McMahon will hand you the million-dollar check from Publishers Clearing\n> House?\n>\n> What I am getting at here is that people don't violate rules for really\n> stupid and unnecessary reasons. There was a simple way to send the letter\n> within the rules, and we did it.\n>\n> Thanks\n>\n> Bruce\n>\n> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 12:55 PM David Swanson <[email protected]>\n> wrote:\n>\n> > My apologies on the Twitter claim - when I tried loading it from source\n> > nothing was displaying pre January 28th, 2020 - the day of your 'I am\n> > signing off of social networking' declaration. (How'd that go btw?) I\n> only\n> > assumed you had deleted your tweets.\n> >\n> > As to your never ending story changing about the mailing list, I was born\n> > at night, but it wasn't last night. Go try your story on another mark.\n> >\n> > -Dave, KG5CCI\n> >\n> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 2:45 PM Bruce Perens <[email protected]> wrote:\n> >\n> >> David,\n> >>\n> >> My tweet was NOT deleted, and is still on twitter at\n> >> https://twitter.com/BrucePerens/status/1154844208458416128\n> >> As stated repeatedly, both by myself and Michelle, I did not handle the\n> >> mailing list, she did. Which was 100% her right as a candidate.\n> >>\n> >> Thanks\n> >>\n> >> Bruce\n> >>\n> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:26 AM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <\n> >> [email protected]> wrote:\n> >>\n> >>> It's always fun to remind folks tripping over their own feat lying that\n> >>> the\n> >>> internet is forever. From a Bruce Perens Tweet on July 13, 2020:\n> >>>\n> >>> \"Please see my letter on the web, or the paper copy I've mailed to\n> >>> everyone\n> >>> one of you\".\n> >>>\n> >>> Of course the original tweet was deleted, but the wayback machine never\n> >>> forgets. Don't Believe me? http://druidnetworks.com/2020-07-13.png\n> >>>\n> >>> If you still think the membership list wasn't compromised, I just heard\n> >>> Director Thompson will be auctioning off their ocean front property in\n> >>> Arizona to all the members this year to raise funds for their\n> microwave,\n> >>> digital only, strictly open source crowd funded, vegan, social justice\n> >>> aware cubesat launch to Proxima Centauri. Of course this launch will\n> only\n> >>> come after 10 years of ground station development, but fueled with\n> enough\n> >>> hopes, dreams and promises it will become a reality!\n> >>>\n> >>> For the rest of us who actually want to keep amateur radio in (real)\n> >>> space\n> >>> and are disgusted at the violations of privacy that occured by 3rd\n> >>> parties\n> >>> working to get Director Thompson and Director Stoddard elected, well,\n> you\n> >>> should know what to do.\n> >>>\n> >>> -Dave, KG5CCI\n> >>>\n> >>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:24 AM Michelle Thompson <\n> >>> [email protected]> wrote:\n> >>>\n> >>> > No database went anywhere except to candidates. This is allowed in\n> the\n> >>> > bylaws.\n> >>> >\n> >>> > Then, an automated bulk mail printing server was used. I recommended\n> >>> the\n> >>> > company to Brennan Price for this year's mailing. Good service,\n> >>> > inexpensive.\n> >>> >\n> >>> > Return addresses don't magically transfer information.\n> >>> >\n> >>> > -Michelle W5NYV\n> >>> >\n> >>> >\n> >>> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 04:32 David Swanson <[email protected]>\n> >>> wrote:\n> >>> >\n> >>> >> Spin Spin Spin. The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the\n> >>> AMSAT\n> >>> >> member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity\n> >>> for the\n> >>> >> purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address,\n> >>> yet ORI\n> >>> >> sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT\n> >>> >> members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any\n> >>> attempt to\n> >>> >> explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director\n> Thompson\n> >>> about\n> >>> >> the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As\n> >>> I keep\n> >>> >> saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of\n> >>> >> reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and\n> >>> this\n> >>> >> community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign.\n> >>> >>\n> >>> >> -Dave, KG5CCI\n> >>> >>\n> >>> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <\n> >>> >> [email protected]> wrote:\n> >>> >>\n> >>> >>> Yes, I can.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly\n> >>> clarified\n> >>> >>> before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark\n> >>> asked\n> >>> >>> me about it, as part of the record.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> He ran the election.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350\n> >>> words,\n> >>> >>> would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not\n> include\n> >>> >>> links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of\n> July\n> >>> >>> holiday with a deadline of the 7th.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> This is different than any election before, where statements went\n> >>> >>> directly\n> >>> >>> to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and\n> >>> no one\n> >>> >>> from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection\n> >>> themselves)\n> >>> >>> had\n> >>> >>> any control over the content of their challengers' statements.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four\n> >>> challengers)\n> >>> >>> already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up\n> >>> six\n> >>> >>> weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link\n> >>> to.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing\n> >>> list,\n> >>> >>> and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and\n> distributed\n> >>> it\n> >>> >>> widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios\n> >>> and\n> >>> >>> statements.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said\n> yes.\n> >>> >>> Since\n> >>> >>> he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted\n> >>> the\n> >>> >>> return address to not be his private home address, but a business\n> >>> >>> address.\n> >>> >>> That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I\n> >>> used\n> >>> >>> his\n> >>> >>> preferred return address.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so\n> >>> >>> undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I\n> >>> sent\n> >>> >>> the\n> >>> >>> letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not\n> >>> included\n> >>> >>> with the ballots mailed out, at all.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the\n> >>> primary\n> >>> >>> factor. We were running against well-known people.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past\n> and\n> >>> >>> seemed\n> >>> >>> set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only\n> ballot.\n> >>> >>> Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need\n> >>> to be\n> >>> >>> mailed out on paper. Paper was required.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting,\n> >>> in\n> >>> >>> March, for a bylaws committee.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of\n> >>> >>> organizations doing electronic voting with working published\n> bylaws.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot\n> >>> about\n> >>> >>> the\n> >>> >>> return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was\n> >>> commonly\n> >>> >>> done\n> >>> >>> in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to\n> >>> use\n> >>> >>> AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce\n> was\n> >>> >>> speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen.\n> *That*\n> >>> >>> would\n> >>> >>> be improper.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return\n> >>> address.\n> >>> >>> We\n> >>> >>> were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have\n> >>> time\n> >>> >>> or\n> >>> >>> funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short\n> >>> >>> notice.\n> >>> >>> The printer required a real return address.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me\n> because\n> >>> I\n> >>> >>> contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion.\n> >>> That\n> >>> >>> is a\n> >>> >>> neat story in and of itself,, for another time.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for\n> postage.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the\n> board\n> >>> that\n> >>> >>> signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce\n> >>> >>> publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark\n> brought\n> >>> it\n> >>> >>> up\n> >>> >>> at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address\n> >>> >>> pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the\n> >>> record.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate\n> >>> >>> twisting\n> >>> >>> of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate\n> statements\n> >>> out\n> >>> >>> to\n> >>> >>> voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and\n> Bruce\n> >>> was\n> >>> >>> very generous in writing a cover letter.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for\n> >>> election\n> >>> >>> purposes.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce\n> >>> Perens,\n> >>> >>> and\n> >>> >>> ORI.\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> -Michelle W5NYV\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <[email protected]\n> >\n> >>> >>> wrote:\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>> > Hello All,\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>> > In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter\n> >>> we all\n> >>> >>> > received as members.\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>>\n> >>>\n> https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Leadership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>> > I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed\n> >>> >>> before.\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>> > \"AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses\n> >>> to\n> >>> >>> > Open Research Institute.\"\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>> > Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a\n> >>> >>> serious\n> >>> >>> > breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information\n> >>> lost?\n> >>> >>> > was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as\n> they\n> >>> say\n> >>> >>> > \"out in the wind\"?\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>> > Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack\n> >>> how\n> >>> >>> > ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it\n> >>> something\n> >>> >>> > that was procured online?\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>> > AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back\n> >>> what it\n> >>> >>> > found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from\n> happening\n> >>> in\n> >>> >>> > the future.\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>> > I look forward to an answer\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>> > 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>> > _______________________________________________\n> >>> >>> > Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum\n> >>> available\n> >>> >>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.\n> >>> >>> Opinions\n> >>> >>> > expressed\n> >>> >>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official\n> >>> views\n> >>> >>> of\n> >>> >>> > AMSAT-NA.\n> >>> >>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite\n> >>> >>> program!\n> >>> >>> > Subscription settings:\n> >>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n> >>> >>> >\n> >>> >>> _______________________________________________\n> >>> >>> Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum\n> >>> available\n> >>> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.\n> >>> >>> Opinions expressed\n> >>> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official\n> >>> views of\n> >>> >>> AMSAT-NA.\n> >>> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite\n> >>> >>> program!\n> >>> >>> Subscription settings:\n> >>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n> >>> >>>\n> >>> >>\n> >>> _______________________________________________\n> >>> Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available\n> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.\n> >>> Opinions expressed\n> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views\n> of\n> >>> AMSAT-NA.\n> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite\n> >>> program!\n> >>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n> >>>\n> >>\n> >>\n> >> --\n> >> Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is\n> >> eventually :-)\n> >>\n> >\n>\n>\n> ------------------------------\n>\n> Subject: Digest Footer\n>\n> _______________________________________________\n> Sent via [email protected].\n> AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons\n> worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed\n> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of\n> AMSAT-NA.\n> Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!\n> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n>\n> ------------------------------\n>\n> End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 247\n> *****************************************\n>\n", "attachments": [] }
