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{ "url": "https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/api/list/[email protected]/email/RIHFHJSKWVMT7NOPRLKVNH5P5QYJW5UA/?format=api", "mailinglist": "https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/api/list/[email protected]/?format=api", "message_id": "[email protected]", "message_id_hash": "RIHFHJSKWVMT7NOPRLKVNH5P5QYJW5UA", "thread": "https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/api/list/[email protected]/thread/SIXPKKGCZPTSPBHHUXMF3S4L4I5LJQQH/?format=api", "sender": { "address": "ko6th_greg (a) hotmail.com", "mailman_id": null, "emails": null }, "sender_name": "Greg D.", "subject": "[amsat-bb] Re: ITAR is interesting to me", "date": "2009-10-26T05:35:39Z", "parent": "https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/api/list/[email protected]/email/IVYCS23CV4NAXQNPB32OTZPBWEAMJTRP/?format=api", "children": [], "votes": { "likes": 0, "dislikes": 0, "status": "neutral" }, "content": "\nAh, so our universities can *teach* foreign nationals how to design and build everything needed to make a satellite, we just can't engage them in the \"research of satellites\"? I give up.\n\nGreg KO6TH\n\n\n> Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 17:38:12 -0700\n> From: [email protected]\n> To: [email protected]\n> CC: [email protected]; [email protected]\n> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: ITAR is interesting to me\n> \n> Greg, the same rules apply to Universities (even our military schools, \n> ie. West Point el al.). This continues to be a real sore spot with \n> University research programs on things related to satellites or any of \n> the areas subject to ITAR. It's get especially tricky when students, \n> which are foreign nationals, try to become involved.\n> \n> But, as I keep saying, if you're involved with \"munitions\" controlled by \n> ITAR and many things related to satellites are, them become familiar \n> with the rules and follow them. If your in doubt, them become familiar \n> with the rules and follow them.\n> \n> Regards...Bill - N6GHz\n> \n> \n> \n> Greg D. wrote:\n> > I wonder if we could hook up with a university somewhere? Become part \n> > of their graduate program in Astro-something, even get some graduate \n> > students to help with the design and manufacture... What sort of \n> > restrictions do they have on the definition of a \"student\"? \n> > \n> > Just a thought,\n> > \n> > Greg KO6TH\n> > \n> > \n> > > Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 12:14:38 -0700\n> > > From: [email protected]\n> > > To: [email protected]\n> > > CC: [email protected]\n> > > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: ITAR is interesting to me\n> > >\n> > > Hi John,\n> > >\n> > > The completed satellite is usually exempt. This is how AO-51, as a\n> > > completed satellite, went to Russia and was launched on a Dnepr. AMSAT\n> > > has in the past and will in the future, apply for an export license for\n> > > a satellite. It's when you try to export satellite components or\n> > > technology, like the IHU, the SDX for the P3E, or engage in dialog\n> > > regarding a satellites thermal performance the the AMSAT-DL folks to\n> > > assist them, that you run afoul of ITAR.\n> > >\n> > > There's a big different between sharing technology and components than\n> > > it is to export a complete satellite for launch. Often the State Dept.\n> > > will require that a representative(s) of the satellite builders (and\n> > > sometimes the State Dept. itself) accompany the satellite at all times,\n> > > insuring that no one can get a closer look than just the outside, right\n> > > through the launch.\n> > >\n> > > Yes, a bit confusing and frustrating, but workable.\n> > >\n> > > Regards...Bill - N6GHz\n> > >\n> > > John P. Toscano wrote:\n> > > > Bob McGwier wrote:\n> > > >> ANY aspect dealing with a satellite, software, hardware, ground \n> > stations\n> > > >> (hardware, software, protocols, etc.), ideas, random ejaculations \n> > from a\n> > > >> diseased mind or whatever that deals with spacecraft or ground \n> > stations\n> > > >> are DEEMED EXPORTS when they depart a U.S. citizen and are \n> > delivered to\n> > > >> a non-U.S. citizen. It is a nearly impossible task to abide by and \n> > one\n> > > >> that really makes me want to throw my hands up in despair and walk \n> > away.\n> > > >>\n> > > >> There are exceptions for classrooms and courses taught in U.S.\n> > > >> university's. A person, even a non-U.S. citizen, who can pay for \n> > taking\n> > > >> a course, may go and involve themselves in course work, even if it is\n> > > >> dealing with the design, construction, and control of spacecraft \n> > during\n> > > >> the course work. Some of this applies to your earlier questions \n> > but for\n> > > >> US service academies, there are very few non-U.S. citizens in them.\n> > > >\n> > > > Bob:\n> > > >\n> > > > I would not dream of second-guessing you for a moment, since you are\n> > > > fully engaged in this stuff and I am simply an interested observer.\n> > > >\n> > > > However, why doesn't the following quotation directly from the ITAR\n> > > > regulations provide the exemption we need? The quotation comes from \n> > the\n> > > > section that defines what are the items that are covered by ITAR:\n> > > >\n> > > > ITAR Part 121 - The United States Munitions List\n> > > >\n> > > > -----------------------< begin quote >-------------------------------\n> > > >\n> > > > Category XV - Spacecraft Systems and Associated Equipment\n> > > >\n> > > > *(a) Spacecraft, including communications satellites, remote sensing\n> > > > satellites, scientific satellites, research satellites, navigation\n> > > > satellites, experimental and multi-mission satellites.\n> > > >\n> > > > *NOTE TO PARAGRAPH (a): Commercial communications satellites, \n> > scientific\n> > > > satellites, research satellites, and experimental satellites are\n> > > > designated as SME only when the equipment is intended for use by the\n> > > > armed forces of any foreign country.\n> > > >\n> > > > -----------------------< end quote >---------------------------------\n> > > >\n> > > > Note that SME refers to \"Significant Military Equipment\"\n> > > >\n> > > > Paragraph (a) seems to cover everything and anything having to do with\n> > > > satellites, but the asterisk and \"NOTE\" attached to it seems to say \n> > that\n> > > > an Amateur radio satellite for use by Amateurs instead of foreign \n> > armed\n> > > > forces should be exempted, doesn't it?\n> > > >\n> > > > Granted, I realize that we have already lost one argument with ITAR\n> > > > about our past cooperation with AMSAT-DL, but is there some compelling\n> > > > reason why the lawyers didn't point out this exception?\n> > > >\n> > > > Just wondering...\n> > > > If I had to guess the answer myself, after looking at the horribly\n> > > > convoluted language of the small piece of the ITAR regulations that I\n> > > > have looked at, there is probably another paragraph elsewhere that\n> > > > effectively says, \"we were just kidding when we said that it had to be\n> > > > used by foreign armed forces, we really mean it to cover everything\"\n> > > >\n> > > > John\n> > > > W0JT\n> > > >\n> > > >\n> > > > _______________________________________________\n> > > > Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the \n> > author.\n> > > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite \n> > program!\n> > > > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n> > > >\n> > >\n> > > _______________________________________________\n> > > Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author.\n> > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite \n> > program!\n> > > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb\n> > \n> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------\n> > Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow! \n> > <http://microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:102009>\n \t\t \t \t\t \n_________________________________________________________________\nWindows 7: It helps you do more. Explore Windows 7.\nhttp://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen3:102009", "attachments": [] }