Dominico,
Thank you very much for the calculations. It would seem that it is possible to work EME on the higher HF bands using WSJT modes under the right conditions. But, I can see that it would take an exceptional HF station to work CW on a regular basis. Of course there's the ionosphere to contend with as well.
Thanks again.
Tony -K2MO
On 6/30/2010 6:11 PM, i8cvs wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony"dxdx@optonline.net To: "AMSAT-BB"amsat-bb@amsat.org; "i8cvs"domenico.i8cvs@tin.it Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: HF Satellite Relay
Dominico,
The 10M sphere brought another question to mind -- Mike Wantanabe, JH1KRC, managed to hear his own EME echoes on the 21MHz using a KW and a 6 element Yagi. Details and recordings are on his website (see below). I was wondering how the path loss calculations compare with his EME results.
http://eme.dokidoki.ne.jp/sound/jh1krc/index.html
Thanks Dominico...
Tony -K2MO
Hi Tony, K2MO
I have heard the EME echoes on the 21 MHz EME test from JH1KRC and they are very strong for a 6 element yagi claiming 18 dBi at 10° elevation and 1 KW output at the antenna but the moon was only 10.8° above the horizon for JH1KRC so that he was advantaged by the gain of the ground at such low moon elevation.
By the way on day 14 jan 2006 the moon was at a distance of 400.000 km from the earth and at a range of 405.000 km from JH1KRC so that the elapsed time from TXing to the echoes must be ( 405.000 x 2 ) / 300.000 = 2.7 seconds and this by hears seems to be accordingly.
We know that the range from the Moon and JH1KRC was 405.000 km and we know that the radius of the Moon is 1735 km or 1735 x 10^3 meters Also we know that the reflectivity coefficient of the moon at 21 MHz is 7 %
The 21 MHz Round Trip Isotropic Attenuation using the concept of Radar Equation is as follows:
Pt x Gt x Ar x SigmaPr = ------------------------------ (4 x 3.14 x R^2)^2
where :
Pr = received power
Pt = transmitted power = 1watt
Gt = gain of a 21 MHz isotropic antenna = 1 in power ratio
Ar = Aperture of the isotropic antenna at 21 MHz in square meters.
R = Radius of a sphere wich distance from the earth is 405 x 10^6 meters i.e the distance from the Moon and the earth expressed in meters.
Sigma = Surface of the Moon in square meters i.e. of the Moon as a radar target like a disc multiplied by the reflectivity coefficient of 7 %
Computing:
/ 2 2 /\ 14.3Ar = ---------- = ----------- = 16.24 square meters 4 x 3,14 4 x 3,14
Sigma = (1735 x 10^3) ^2 x 3.14 x 0.07 = 6.62 x 10^11 square meters
1 x 1 x 16.24 x (6.62 x 10^11)Pr = --------------------------------------- = 2.53 x 10^-24 watt [(4 x 3.14 x ( 405 x 10^6)^2]^2
1Round trip attenuation = 10 log ----------------- = 236 dB 2.53 x 10^-24
Assuming that we are using a good HF receiver with a NF= 8 dB equivalent to 1539 kelvin we must consider in addition that the receiver sensitivity is limited by the external available noise power.For quiet,rural locations as that of JH1KRC the galactic noise is the limiting factor and at 21 MHz the noise temperature is around 29.000 kelvin so that reducing the Noise Figure belove 8 dB at 21 MHz do not improve the S/N ratio.
In addition during the 15mEME01 QRO test on CW JH1KRC claims to have used a RX CW filter with a bandwidth of only 10 Hz as you can read in his web page.
http://eme.dokidoki.ne.jp/sound/jh1krc/index.html
With the above data the noise floor of this receiver for CW into a bandwidth of 10 Hz can be calculated as follows:
Noise Floor = KTB = 1.38 x 10^-23 ( 1539 + 29.000 ) x 10 = - 173.7 dBW or - 142.6 dBm
Link budged calculation:
TX power 1000 watt.............................+30 dBW TX Antenna gain....................................+18 dBi ----------- Transmitted EIRP .................................+48 dBW Round trip attenuation 1500 km..........- 236 dB ----------- Received power Pr on isotropic antenna on the earth ..............................-188 dBW RX antenna gain....................................+ 18 dB ----------- Available power at RX input............... - 170 dBW RX noise floor...................................... - 173.7 dBW ----------- Signal received with a S/N ratio.......... + 3.7 dB
So according with the above calculations the signal of JH1KRC is 3.7 dB over the noise and so it is detectable very strong as recorded in the file 15m01142006_31qro in the following web page.
http://eme.dokidoki.ne.jp/sound/jh1krc/index.html
In addition since the test was made with the Moon at a very low elevation of 10.8° we must add to 3.7 dB at least 1 or 2 dB or more due to the gain of the ground.
Probably if a new test will be made at higher moon elevation the echoes of file 15m01142006_31qro would be audible but not so spectacular.
Best 73" de
i8CVS Domenico
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