Well you kind of answered your own question. You don't understand why a group would be so disgruntled yet continue to be involved. Either they are all trolls or they care and want to change things in a way they truly believe is better. I don't doubt the incumbents have positive intentions and mean no harm... Mostly they do positive things, but they have done a few things I disagree with. You seem to be refusing to see why anyone could feel that way. Until then I guess it makes sense to just want it to go away.
As for your second paragraph, of course if you ask all the people who have been in charge for the last several years who did the things that got done, they will all point at each other. That is not the point. The point is, some people want to do new/different things that they haven't gotten an adequate chance to do.
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020, 22:17 Joseph Armbruster josepharmbruster@gmail.com wrote:
John Brier is signed on to your campaign, per the reference link that I provided... and, he's replying to me saying "well, Bruce shouldn't leave!" to my response. That's all i'm saying...
I don't understand what could make a group of people so disgruntled against the AMSAT BOD or just generally against the organization, volunteers, membership, etc... Negativity at this level never brings results. I can not understand why such a group would continue to be involved with the organization. Your thoughts and opinions do not intersect well with what I have observed in the past of the volunteers or members that i've known or my understanding of the present organization. In addition, the mis-characterizations of relationships and productivity is disheartening and damaging.
Anyhow, for all of you bb-members who just say "aw, well, I just want to discuss sats and no politics...."... understand that your vote will directly affect how AMSAT coordinates, communicates, negotiates and develops future satellite projects. It is a serious vote for the future of the organization in many, many ways. It's a vote that should support the engineers that put serious, difficult, hard work into many projects to-date. I suggest that you all reach out to the existing BOD members, all of them and talk to them individually. Read what they have written, talk to the engineers, talk to the project leads, seek their opinions, etc... ask who was writing software, designing hardware, working on schedules, logistics, launch requirements, testing, etc... Who worked documentation, etc... see who those people are and who they rely on and circle back to, ask explicitly! Ask who they are voting for. Talk to previous board members also, and ask about what the bottlenecks were, who were the individuals getting stuff done. It's not hard, just do not read the opinions of others on the -bb (myself included). Make an informed decision, Skype, Zoom, jit.si, phone call, email, etc... whatever it takes. Make a serious effort to reach out and determine what is in the best interest of AMSAT. I know who is, in my opinion (Hammond, Paige, Stoetzer) but everyone needs to resolve this individually.
73s & NM,
Joseph Armbruster
KJ4JIO
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 8:06 PM Bruce Perens bruce@perens.com wrote:
Joseph,
This is either ad-hominem or just incomprehensible. I know you are capable of presenting credible arguments. Please endeavor to do so.
Thanks BruceOn Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:59 PM Joseph Armbruster < josepharmbruster@gmail.com> wrote:
John,
I can see it being unhelpful, if you signed on with the guy that i'm asking to go away :-) ref: https://perens.com/static/AMSAT/Election2020.html
Cheers, Joseph Armbruster KJ4JIO
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 5:33 PM John Brier johnbrier@gmail.com wrote:
"wish you would just stop, go away and maybe work harder at growing ORI"
At this point it's clear there are big disagreements and issues that must be worked out so wishing or suggesting people just go away seems unhelpful. Might as well leave this point out as it just muddies the waters around any reasonable points you have.
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:08 PM Joseph Armbruster via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
Bruce,
All your statements about AMSAT leadership are a false narrative that
you
and your crew are constantly perpetuating to discredit the
organization,
for the sake of securing like-minded individuals on the BOD. I can
only
assume, with the intention of growing ORI? I mean, you did say they
got
three amateur radio in space grants, right? Why weren't those pursued through AMSAT? What you're doing to AMSAT on the bb publicly is quite sad, though no doubt, coordinated and with intent. There are many of
us
members (some vocal, many not) that really wish you would just stop,
go
away and maybe work harder at growing ORI. This action would
directly help
preserve AMSATs integrity and give you a path to direct your effort
and
energy more productively. Think of the problems you could solve if
you
were just not being held back..? I know engineers personally that
helped
developed that power supply for ARISS and they are really sharp,
*involved
AMSAT members* that from my own observation have invested countless
years
of their lives building kit for AMSAT. I saw it and it's some
amazing,
amazing, amazing hardware. I speak per my observations of these individuals, not for them. Every volunteer organization gains and
looses
members, all the time, depending on what's going on in their life,
state of
the economy, etc...that's not surprising nor necessarily a reflection
of
the work taking place within the organization, or its leadership.
Joseph Armbruster
KJ4JIO
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:07 PM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@amsat.org>
wrote:
It is entirely not in ARISS-USA's and AREx's interest to involve
themselves
publicly in AMSAT politics, or indeed that of almost any other organization. While I was curious about the "why now" and "was it
an AMSAT
issue", it is potentially damaging to ARISS-USA and AREx to pursue
that,
and I respect Frank's request that we stop, which he first made
several
weeks ago.
In contrast, my perception is that AMSAT leadership is pursuing a
course
that has so damaged its relationship with many previously-active volunteers, at least one major donor, and a good portion of the
membership
and non-member hams; that public intervention is necessary - and appropriate within the context of an election.
Thanks BruceOn Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:42 AM Fernando Ramirez via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
> I understand Frank's concerns and agree that these matters must be handled > very carefully. > > For that same reason I think two separate legally established
entities
must > discuss their current partnership beyond of a press release.
Probably
> both AMSAT > and ARISS USA need to draft and approve a Memorandum of
Understanding
> establishing, in writing, how are things going to work from now
on.
> > Like we say in good ol' Castilian "well defined business safeguard > friendships) > > 73 > > Fernando KF7R > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020, 11:13 AM Michelle Thompson < > mountain.michelle@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Frank sums up the problems very well. > > > > An organization with unaddressed unauthorized spending could
lose
> > opportunities in space. Refusing to even meet to talk about
this and
> other > > problems has put the organization at risk. That is what has
happened.
> > > > We can't collaborate when we are denied meetings. > > > > We can't have teamwork without collaboration. > > > > I am optimistic things can and will improve. > > > > -Michelle W5NYV > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:36 AM Frank Bauer via AMSAT-BB < > > amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote: > > > >> >>3. I had e-mailed Clayton Coleman and the Board on 13 June,
calling
> for > >> a meeting to discuss the announcement of the formation of the
new
> ARISS-USA > >> organization, and the effect that would have on AMSAT. > >> > >> I would like to respectfully request for folks to stop trying
to drag
> >> ARISS and the new AREx initiative into this political battle. > >> > >> In previous posts, Dave Taylor, W8AAS, the AMSAT delegate to
ARISS,
and > I > >> have stated that ARISS-USA became an entity to allow ARISS to
sign
> >> agreements (with NASA and others) and seek grants in the ARISS
name.
In > >> the past, AMSAT has done that in the US on behalf of ARISS.
The
> functional > >> change is that ARISS is assuming for itself some of the tasks
that
> AMSAT > >> has donated support to accomplish. (and we thank AMSAT for this donated > >> support!) The good working relationship that ARISS has had
with AMSAT
> over > >> the years is NOT changing. For more information, read the
press
> release on > >> the new ARISS-USA entity on the ARISS web site www.ariss.org
(6th
> >> article down). > >> > >> One item I will remind all of you: Getting into space is HARD. > >> Collaboration and teamwork are essential elements of space
mission
> >> success. Infighting and back biting are a recipe for disaster
in
> >> organizations and especially in space. If you all continue
these
> >> behaviors, you will lose your opportunities to fly your space
missions
> of > >> the future. Space agencies and space corporations only want
to work
> with > >> folks that are dedicated to mission success. I ask all to get
over
your > >> grievances and start working as a team as I would hate to see
AMSAT
lose > >> space opportunities and space relationships that have taken
decades to
> >> build. > >> > >> 73, Frank Bauer, KA3HDO > >> ARISS-USA Executive Director > >> AMSAT-NA V.P. for Human Spaceflight Programs > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) amsat-bb@wd9ewk.net > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 1:30 AM > >> To: Fernando Ramirez framirezferrer@gmail.com; AMSAT < > >> amsat-bb@amsat.org> > >> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Who Let THIS Info Out? > >> > >> Fernando, > >> > >> Thanks for asking. Yes, I have made calls for meetings, and
there
should > >> have been meetings since the last special meeting at the end
of March.
> >> > >> 1. Discuss the thousands of dollars in unauthorized spending
on legal
> >> expenses since 2018 - a point that is not disputed in the
letter AMSAT
> >> President Clayton Coleman sent to members last month. > >> > >> 2. After Robert Bankston's financial report was released in mid-March, I > >> asked for a meeting to discuss the "cost-saving and budgetary
control
> >> measures" he started to implement. After many months, Robert
has not
> >> discussed these measures. Given the unauthorized spending, it
appears
> AMSAT > >> is in dire need of budgetary control measures. > >> > >> 3. I had e-mailed Clayton Coleman and the Board on 13 June,
calling
for > a > >> meeting to discuss the announcement of the formation of the new > ARISS-USA > >> organization, and the effect that would have on AMSAT. > >> Clayton informed the Board on 16 June that he would gather his
notes
> >> regarding a discussion with Frank Bauer and ARISS-USA, and
review them
> with > >> the Board. As of tonight, nothing from Clayton. > >> > >> Michelle has also made calls for meetings. Yet none of the
other 5
> >> directors - including the two running for reelection this
summer -
have > >> joined our calls for meetings. Clayton could call meetings,
but has
> chosen > >> not to. I would be more than happy to discuss these, and other
issues,
> >> during an on-the-record Board meeting where minutes are made
available
> to > >> AMSAT members. > >> > >> Thank you. > >> > >> Patrick Stoddard, WD9EWK/VA7EWK > >> http://www.wd9ewk.net/ > >> Twitter: @WD9EWK or http://twitter.com/WD9EWK > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
available
> >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
membership.
> >> Opinions expressed > >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the
official views
of > >> AMSAT-NA. > >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur
satellite
> program! > >> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions > expressed > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
views of
> AMSAT-NA. > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! > Subscription settings:
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
-- Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is
eventually
:-) _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
views of
AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings:
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings:
-- Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually :-)