Kenneth,
It doesn't look like the president is crippling the organization, reference amsat-bb email "Reply to W5PFG's letter of 10 July 2020."
We're in the United States Ken and sadly a lot of people in the country are attorney/sue-happy and some use that as a method/means of intimidation or suppression of speech. If you want to see how bad this can get here, look up what Judy Munro-Leighton did to Brett Kavanaugh,when he was being appointed to the supreme court. The sad reality right now is that anyone can sue anyone over anything and ruin everything someone has worked for, over literally, Nothing. On the flip side, anyone that fears any form of legal action against them, has to lawyer-up, in an effort to learn the law, gather information and protect themselves.
When members or BOD members start hiring attorneys to write kind letters to other members (like the one posted publically to the -bb), that's not an invitation to engage in productive discussion. That's a clear threat of legal action. I mean, when's the last time You hired an attorney to have them write a letter on your behalf? I guess some people have time for that nonsense... I would venture to say that for most of the good keep-your-head-down-and-hack kindof engineers, if they receive a letter like that while working with at a volunteer group, they are more likely to just want to quit and move on and do something else with their life, rather than deal with the potential social/financial headache or having their names dragged through the mud unnecessarily. That just means it's more of a push to get people to quit/leave... resulting in a potential loss of talent for AMSAT. Which sucks.
I haven't been involved in any of the BOD meetings but I can see how if it's gotten to the point to where they need to walk on eggshells the entire meeting over fear of legal actions, then the activity comes to a halt. Then people on the opposing side turn around and say "Hoorah! Hoorah! The board isn't doing anything, look at how bad they are!!"... When in fact, that's not the case at all, it's all really a symptom, of another problem... From a third-party perspective, that's what this all looks like to me.
Joseph Armbruster
KJ4JIO
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 4:33 AM Kenneth P Alexander ve3hls@gmail.com wrote:
Well said John.
In the mean time we're crippled with a President who refuses to discuss these issues in the only forum we have where can express our views, supposedly out of 'respect' for Amsat's membership.
It's the membership's prerogative to speak out when we don't like decisions the Corporation makes, and it's the President's job to listen to the members and engage in ongoing discussions...not issue corporate edicts and then disengage from from the membership.
Ken Alexander, VE3HLS So Phisai, Thailand Blog: bueng-ken.com
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 10:05 John Brier via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
Well you kind of answered your own question. You don't understand why a group would be so disgruntled yet continue to be involved. Either they are all trolls or they care and want to change things in a way they truly believe is better. I don't doubt the incumbents have positive intentions and mean no harm... Mostly they do positive things, but they have done a few things I disagree with. You seem to be refusing to see why anyone could feel that way. Until then I guess it makes sense to just want it to go away.
As for your second paragraph, of course if you ask all the people who have been in charge for the last several years who did the things that got done, they will all point at each other. That is not the point. The point is, some people want to do new/different things that they haven't gotten an adequate chance to do.
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020, 22:17 Joseph Armbruster josepharmbruster@gmail.com wrote:
John Brier is signed on to your campaign, per the reference link that I provided... and, he's replying to me saying "well, Bruce shouldn't
leave!"
to my response. That's all i'm saying...
I don't understand what could make a group of people so disgruntled against the AMSAT BOD or just generally against the organization, volunteers, membership, etc... Negativity at this level never brings results. I can not understand why such a group would continue to be involved with the organization. Your thoughts and opinions do not intersect well with what I have observed in the past of the volunteers
or
members that i've known or my understanding of the present organization. In addition, the mis-characterizations of relationships and
productivity is
disheartening and damaging.
Anyhow, for all of you bb-members who just say "aw, well, I just want to discuss sats and no politics...."... understand that your vote will directly affect how AMSAT coordinates, communicates, negotiates and develops future satellite projects. It is a serious vote for the
future of
the organization in many, many ways. It's a vote that should support
the
engineers that put serious, difficult, hard work into many projects to-date. I suggest that you all reach out to the existing BOD members,
all
of them and talk to them individually. Read what they have written,
talk
to the engineers, talk to the project leads, seek their opinions, etc... ask who was writing software, designing hardware, working on schedules, logistics, launch requirements, testing, etc... Who worked
documentation,
etc... see who those people are and who they rely on and circle back to, ask explicitly! Ask who they are voting for. Talk to previous board members also, and ask about what the bottlenecks were, who were the individuals getting stuff done. It's not hard, just do not read the opinions of others on the -bb (myself included). Make an informed decision, Skype, Zoom, jit.si, phone call, email, etc... whatever it takes. Make a serious effort to reach out and determine what is in the best interest of AMSAT. I know who is, in my opinion (Hammond, Paige, Stoetzer) but everyone needs to resolve this individually.
73s & NM,
Joseph Armbruster
KJ4JIO
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 8:06 PM Bruce Perens bruce@perens.com wrote:
Joseph,
This is either ad-hominem or just incomprehensible. I know you are capable of presenting credible arguments. Please endeavor to do so.
Thanks BruceOn Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:59 PM Joseph Armbruster < josepharmbruster@gmail.com> wrote:
John,
I can see it being unhelpful, if you signed on with the guy that i'm asking to go away :-) ref: https://perens.com/static/AMSAT/Election2020.html
Cheers, Joseph Armbruster KJ4JIO
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 5:33 PM John Brier johnbrier@gmail.com
wrote:
"wish you would just stop, go away and maybe work harder at growing
ORI"
At this point it's clear there are big disagreements and issues that must be worked out so wishing or suggesting people just go away seems unhelpful. Might as well leave this point out as it just muddies the waters around any reasonable points you have.
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:08 PM Joseph Armbruster via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote: > > Bruce, > > > All your statements about AMSAT leadership are a false narrative
that
you > and your crew are constantly perpetuating to discredit the organization, > for the sake of securing like-minded individuals on the BOD. I can only > assume, with the intention of growing ORI? I mean, you did say
they
got > three amateur radio in space grants, right? Why weren't those
pursued
> through AMSAT? What you're doing to AMSAT on the bb publicly is
quite
> sad, though no doubt, coordinated and with intent. There are many
of
us > members (some vocal, many not) that really wish you would just
stop,
go > away and maybe work harder at growing ORI. This action would directly help > preserve AMSATs integrity and give you a path to direct your effort and > energy more productively. Think of the problems you could solve if you > were just not being held back..? I know engineers personally that helped > developed that power supply for ARISS and they are really sharp, *involved > AMSAT members* that from my own observation have invested countless years > of their lives building kit for AMSAT. I saw it and it's some amazing, > amazing, amazing hardware. I speak per my observations of these > individuals, not for them. Every volunteer organization gains and looses > members, all the time, depending on what's going on in their life, state of > the economy, etc...that's not surprising nor necessarily a
reflection
of > the work taking place within the organization, or its leadership. > > > Joseph Armbruster > > KJ4JIO > > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:07 PM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> > wrote: > > > It is entirely not in ARISS-USA's and AREx's interest to involve themselves > > publicly in AMSAT politics, or indeed that of almost any other > > organization. While I was curious about the "why now" and "was it an AMSAT > > issue", it is potentially damaging to ARISS-USA and AREx to
pursue
that, > > and I respect Frank's request that we stop, which he first made several > > weeks ago. > > > > In contrast, my perception is that AMSAT leadership is pursuing a course > > that has so damaged its relationship with many previously-active > > volunteers, at least one major donor, and a good portion of the membership > > and non-member hams; that public intervention is necessary - and > > appropriate within the context of an election. > > > > Thanks > > > > Bruce > > > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:42 AM Fernando Ramirez via AMSAT-BB < > > amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote: > > > > > I understand Frank's concerns and agree that these matters
must be
> > handled > > > very carefully. > > > > > > For that same reason I think two separate legally established entities > > must > > > discuss their current partnership beyond of a press release. Probably > > > both AMSAT > > > and ARISS USA need to draft and approve a Memorandum of Understanding > > > establishing, in writing, how are things going to work from now on. > > > > > > Like we say in good ol' Castilian "well defined business
safeguard
> > > friendships) > > > > > > 73 > > > > > > Fernando KF7R > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020, 11:13 AM Michelle Thompson < > > > mountain.michelle@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Frank sums up the problems very well. > > > > > > > > An organization with unaddressed unauthorized spending could lose > > > > opportunities in space. Refusing to even meet to talk about this and > > > other > > > > problems has put the organization at risk. That is what has happened. > > > > > > > > We can't collaborate when we are denied meetings. > > > > > > > > We can't have teamwork without collaboration. > > > > > > > > I am optimistic things can and will improve. > > > > > > > > -Michelle W5NYV > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:36 AM Frank Bauer via AMSAT-BB < > > > > amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote: > > > > > > > >> >>3. I had e-mailed Clayton Coleman and the Board on 13
June,
calling > > > for > > > >> a meeting to discuss the announcement of the formation of
the
new > > > ARISS-USA > > > >> organization, and the effect that would have on AMSAT. > > > >> > > > >> I would like to respectfully request for folks to stop
trying
to drag > > > >> ARISS and the new AREx initiative into this political
battle.
> > > >> > > > >> In previous posts, Dave Taylor, W8AAS, the AMSAT delegate to ARISS, > > and > > > I > > > >> have stated that ARISS-USA became an entity to allow ARISS
to
sign > > > >> agreements (with NASA and others) and seek grants in the
ARISS
name. > > In > > > >> the past, AMSAT has done that in the US on behalf of ARISS. The > > > functional > > > >> change is that ARISS is assuming for itself some of the
tasks
that > > > AMSAT > > > >> has donated support to accomplish. (and we thank AMSAT for
this
> > donated > > > >> support!) The good working relationship that ARISS has had with AMSAT > > > over > > > >> the years is NOT changing. For more information, read the press > > > release on > > > >> the new ARISS-USA entity on the ARISS web site
www.ariss.org
(6th > > > >> article down). > > > >> > > > >> One item I will remind all of you: Getting into space is
HARD.
> > > >> Collaboration and teamwork are essential elements of space mission > > > >> success. Infighting and back biting are a recipe for
disaster
in > > > >> organizations and especially in space. If you all continue these > > > >> behaviors, you will lose your opportunities to fly your
space
missions > > > of > > > >> the future. Space agencies and space corporations only want to work > > > with > > > >> folks that are dedicated to mission success. I ask all to
get
over > > your > > > >> grievances and start working as a team as I would hate to
see
AMSAT > > lose > > > >> space opportunities and space relationships that have taken decades to > > > >> build. > > > >> > > > >> 73, Frank Bauer, KA3HDO > > > >> ARISS-USA Executive Director > > > >> AMSAT-NA V.P. for Human Spaceflight Programs > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) <amsat-bb@wd9ewk.net
> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 1:30 AM > > > >> To: Fernando Ramirez framirezferrer@gmail.com; AMSAT < > > > >> amsat-bb@amsat.org> > > > >> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Who Let THIS Info Out? > > > >> > > > >> Fernando, > > > >> > > > >> Thanks for asking. Yes, I have made calls for meetings, and there > > should > > > >> have been meetings since the last special meeting at the end of March. > > > >> > > > >> 1. Discuss the thousands of dollars in unauthorized spending on legal > > > >> expenses since 2018 - a point that is not disputed in the letter AMSAT > > > >> President Clayton Coleman sent to members last month. > > > >> > > > >> 2. After Robert Bankston's financial report was released in > > mid-March, I > > > >> asked for a meeting to discuss the "cost-saving and
budgetary
control > > > >> measures" he started to implement. After many months, Robert has not > > > >> discussed these measures. Given the unauthorized spending,
it
appears > > > AMSAT > > > >> is in dire need of budgetary control measures. > > > >> > > > >> 3. I had e-mailed Clayton Coleman and the Board on 13 June, calling > > for > > > a > > > >> meeting to discuss the announcement of the formation of the
new
> > > ARISS-USA > > > >> organization, and the effect that would have on AMSAT. > > > >> Clayton informed the Board on 16 June that he would gather
his
notes > > > >> regarding a discussion with Frank Bauer and ARISS-USA, and review them > > > with > > > >> the Board. As of tonight, nothing from Clayton. > > > >> > > > >> Michelle has also made calls for meetings. Yet none of the other 5 > > > >> directors - including the two running for reelection this summer - > > have > > > >> joined our calls for meetings. Clayton could call meetings, but has > > > chosen > > > >> not to. I would be more than happy to discuss these, and
other
issues, > > > >> during an on-the-record Board meeting where minutes are made available > > > to > > > >> AMSAT members. > > > >> > > > >> Thank you. > > > >> > > > >> Patrick Stoddard, WD9EWK/VA7EWK > > > >> http://www.wd9ewk.net/ > > > >> Twitter: @WD9EWK or http://twitter.com/WD9EWK > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available > > > >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. > > > >> Opinions expressed > > > >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views > > of > > > >> AMSAT-NA. > > > >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite > > > program! > > > >> Subscription settings: > > https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > > >> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available > > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
membership.
> > Opinions > > > expressed > > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of > > > AMSAT-NA. > > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur
satellite
> > program! > > > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > > > > > > > > -- > > Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually > > :-) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions > > expressed > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of > > AMSAT-NA. > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! > > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > > _______________________________________________ > Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
views
of AMSAT-NA. > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
-- Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually :-)
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb