OK.. a LARGE "punkin' chunker" or two really tall and flexible trees for a slingshot...
More seriously, it seems that for anything of reasonable size to be launched, particularly into an orbit that we rapidly enter not only the perview of costly specialization but also of military / government permissions, etc., probably much more delicate than ITAR considerations.
Please enlighten me if indeed there might be a way to get something up (and to stay up) more economically.
Would there be any feasiblity to an initial "launch" by using high-altitude weather ballons and THEN firing a small booster with appropriate guidance and CCC (command, control, and communications) to steer it into an orbital insertion? If the bird and booster weights were small enough, could a wx balloon lift them adequately?
Just wondering...
Lowell K9LDW EM12sr
------ Original Message ------ Received: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 04:38:33 PM CST From: Bob- W7LRD w7lrd@comcast.net To: George Henry ka3hsw@att.netCc: AMSAT amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Satellite Satire
Cool George! it's not the building and concepts that's difficult. It's
getting the damn things up there. We should have a division of AMSAT that does rockets, and launch our own. Like my Dad told me, "the difficult we do immediately, the impossible takes a little longer".
73 Bob W7LRD
----- Original Message ----- From: "George Henry" ka3hsw@att.net To: "AMSAT" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:06:39 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Satellite Satire
Better yet, take the 10.8 MHz IF output from one of their old Bearcat
scanners,
programmed for a 2-meter uplink, add an appropriate local oscillator and
high
pass filter, feed the resulting signal to the final stage from one of
their old
sideband CB's, and you've got a mode A *LINEAR* satellite!!
We could call it OSCAR 10-4!
George, KA3HSW
----- Original Message ----
From: K4FEG K4FEG@K4FEG.COM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tue, November 29, 2011 8:49:31 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Satellite Satire
OK I have a suggestion: a new inexpensive satellite, It will be
designated:
*ReNe-Sat-3, *that will be an abbreviation for: *Red Neck Satellite #3
(
Dale
Ernharts Sr. NASCAR #).
*We will take 2 Woxun HT's, 2 Larsen Mag-mounts, 2**1/4 wave
antennas, a
solar
panel with charger from Northern Hydraulics and last but not least
about 100
feet of NASCAR 200mph duct tape.
We take the 2 radios set them up for our frequencies, duct tape them
together
mount the antennas on the solar panel hook the solar panel up to the
HT
batteries and last but not least we send two of the south's finest:
*Astronaut
"Bubba & Cooter"* up with the new bird to deploy it. We will tell
Bubba &
Cooter that they can have free passes to all the NASCAR races for
2012 when
they get this satellite working and in orbit.
I promise they will have that thing (or should i say "thang") up
and
running
in HEO and be back before the first race in February 2012.
For those that are not sure, YES I AM MAKING A JOKE!
/*It is difficult work to keep these satellites working and the
control
operators deserve a round of applause from us for all that they have
done to
extend the life of AO51 and all of the other birds.
THANK YOU ONE AND ALL! A JOB WELL DONE! */ Frank K4FEG
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hmm, unlikely I would say:
A typical WX ballon goes up to about 30 km, maybe 50 km if you get a high performance one. The AO-51 orbit is at about 750 km. I witnessed the X2 (Spaceship one) launch in 2004. The rocket for the orbiter fired at about 15 km (from the carrier plane) and burned for 90 seconds just to reach 100 km. This is *a lot* of energy which needs to be invested into the object. Now we are talking 750 km, not 100, and then you still need to do a controlled orbit injection burn. I admin, we are talking 10 kg payload, not 200 kg, but doing this with a single stage booster launched from an unstable wx balloon would be quite a challenge IMHO.
Not sure if that already happened, but did somebody ever talk to the Europeans ? The ariane V is the most powerful, most reliable launch vehicle today. They launch commercial satellites more or less once a month. I wonder if they would donate a <10 kg payload every once in a while ?
Andreas
________________________________ From: Lowell White whiteld@usa.net To: Bob- W7LRD w7lrd@comcast.net; George Henry ka3hsw@att.net Cc: AMSAT amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, 30 November 2011 10:57 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Satellite Satire
OK.. a LARGE "punkin' chunker" or two really tall and flexible trees for a slingshot...
More seriously, it seems that for anything of reasonable size to be launched, particularly into an orbit that we rapidly enter not only the perview of costly specialization but also of military / government permissions, etc., probably much more delicate than ITAR considerations.
Please enlighten me if indeed there might be a way to get something up (and to stay up) more economically.
Would there be any feasiblity to an initial "launch" by using high-altitude weather ballons and THEN firing a small booster with appropriate guidance and CCC (command, control, and communications) to steer it into an orbital insertion? If the bird and booster weights were small enough, could a wx balloon lift them adequately?
Just wondering...
Lowell K9LDW EM12sr
------ Original Message ------ Received: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 04:38:33 PM CST From: Bob- W7LRD w7lrd@comcast.net To: George Henry ka3hsw@att.netCc: AMSAT amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Satellite Satire
Cool George! it's not the building and concepts that's difficult. It's
getting the damn things up there. We should have a division of AMSAT that does rockets, and launch our own. Like my Dad told me, "the difficult we do immediately, the impossible takes a little longer".
73 Bob W7LRD
----- Original Message ----- From: "George Henry" ka3hsw@att.net To: "AMSAT" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:06:39 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Satellite Satire
Better yet, take the 10.8 MHz IF output from one of their old Bearcat
scanners,
programmed for a 2-meter uplink, add an appropriate local oscillator and
high
pass filter, feed the resulting signal to the final stage from one of
their old
sideband CB's, and you've got a mode A *LINEAR* satellite!!
We could call it OSCAR 10-4!
George, KA3HSW
----- Original Message ----
From: K4FEG K4FEG@K4FEG.COM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tue, November 29, 2011 8:49:31 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Satellite Satire
OK I have a suggestion: a new inexpensive satellite, It will be
designated:
*ReNe-Sat-3, *that will be an abbreviation for: *Red Neck Satellite #3
(
Dale
Ernharts Sr. NASCAR #).
*We will take 2 Woxun HT's, 2 Larsen Mag-mounts, 2**1/4 wave
antennas, a
solar
panel with charger from Northern Hydraulics and last but not least
about 100
feet of NASCAR 200mph duct tape.
We take the 2 radios set them up for our frequencies, duct tape them
together
mount the antennas on the solar panel hook the solar panel up to the
HT
batteries and last but not least we send two of the south's finest:
*Astronaut
"Bubba & Cooter"* up with the new bird to deploy it. We will tell
Bubba &
Cooter that they can have free passes to all the NASCAR races for
2012 when
they get this satellite working and in orbit.
I promise they will have that thing (or should i say "thang") up
and
running
in HEO and be back before the first race in February 2012.
For those that are not sure, YES I AM MAKING A JOKE!
/*It is difficult work to keep these satellites working and the
control
operators deserve a round of applause from us for all that they have
done to
extend the life of AO51 and all of the other birds.
THANK YOU ONE AND ALL! A JOB WELL DONE! */ Frank K4FEG
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On 30/11/11 01:46, Andy Kellner wrote:
Hmm, unlikely I would say:
A typical WX ballon goes up to about 30 km, maybe 50 km if you get a high performance one.
You know, from 50km up you can see a fair chunk of the earth. While it might not be as cool as flying a satellite, a balloon-lofted repeater could be quite good fun. What next, though? Well, maybe a UAV-lofted repeater. I wonder how well a combination of a balloon for the heavy lifting with a UAV-based payload for station-keeping would work?
-- Gordon JC Pearce MM0YEQ
--- On Wed, 30/11/11, Gordon JC Pearce gordonjcp@gjcp.net wrote:
You know, from 50km up you can see a fair chunk of the earth. While it might not be as cool as flying a satellite, a balloon-lofted repeater could be quite good fun. What next, though? Well, maybe a UAV-lofted repeater. I wonder how well a combination of a balloon for the heavy lifting with a UAV-based payload for station-keeping would work?
I believe there are problems with maintaining a High Altitude Platform in position above 25 km.
Current research is based on platforms between 17 and 22 km high. At that height they could provide coverage over a radius of up to 500 km.
In the UK we have the drawback that aeronautical amateur radio systems are not permitted by our regulator.
http://www.elec.york.ac.uk/research/comms/haps.html
http://www.port.ac.uk/research/telecoms/researchareas/satellitecommunication...
73 Trevor M5AKA
On 30/11/11 13:34, Trevor . wrote:
Current research is based on platforms between 17 and 22 km high. At that height they could provide coverage over a radius of up to 500 km.
Roughly equivalent to NVIS HF communications, then.
In the UK we have the drawback that aeronautical amateur radio systems are not permitted by our regulator.
Ah, but there you are making the assumption that we'd tell them what we were going to do! This is the classic mistake when dealing with Ofcom or anyone else for that matter.
If Ofcom are going to get upset about airborne repeaters, then maybe before they get too involved in that they should turn their attention to some of the noisy idiots on the terrestrial ones.
-- Gordon JC Pearce MM0YEQ
At 02:19 AM 12/1/2011, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
On 30/11/11 13:34, Trevor . wrote:
Current research is based on platforms between 17 and 22 km high. At that height they could provide coverage over a radius of up to 500 km.
Roughly equivalent to NVIS HF communications, then.
One of those over SE Australia would be a very interesting proposition - a repeater that could potentially cover all of one state, parts of 3 others and the ACT. :) In other parts of the country, you'd get lightly used rural repeaters, which could be useful for travellers. Wondor how much one of those could be put up for.
73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com
On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 11:40:44AM +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
On 30/11/11 01:46, Andy Kellner wrote:
Hmm, unlikely I would say:
A typical WX ballon goes up to about 30 km, maybe 50 km if you get a high performance one.
You know, from 50km up you can see a fair chunk of the earth. While it might not be as cool as flying a satellite, a balloon-lofted repeater could be quite good fun. What next, though? Well, maybe a UAV-lofted repeater. I wonder how well a combination of a balloon for the heavy lifting with a UAV-based payload for station-keeping would work?
Gordon knows as well as I do, (Hi Gordon!) the military have been doing this for years. The commercial companies have been exploring this as well for some uses, why not amateurs? (Do a quick websearch for communications blimps) Using model aircraft electric motors and solar cells it might be possible to build something that would stay up a few months at a time that might be within reach for a club. Anyone here run the numbers already? I wonder what the civian aviation regs would be like too. ;-)
-- Gordon JC Pearce MM0YEQ
- 73 Diane VA3DB
Gordon,
There are at least two groups that know of that launch High altitude balloons with amateur payloads. I just joined one: Arizona Near Space Research. http://www.ansr.org/
The other s in Colorado, not sure of the organization's name though.
The balloons typically reach 90-100K feet in altitude and carry a Crossband repeater and several other payloads, including APRS Digipeaters & SSTV. The footprint is about 300 Miles at burst altitude.
I made several contacts during ANSR-65 a few weeks back.
Hopefully time will allow me to participate in the next launch.
Clear Skies
Rick Tejera Saguaro Astronomy Club Phoenix, Arizona www.saguaroastro.org saguaroastro@cox.net K7TEJ, AMSAT 38452
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:41 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Satellite Satire
On 30/11/11 01:46, Andy Kellner wrote:
Hmm, unlikely I would say:
A typical WX ballon goes up to about 30 km, maybe 50 km if you get a high
performance one.
You know, from 50km up you can see a fair chunk of the earth. While it might not be as cool as flying a satellite, a balloon-lofted repeater could be quite good fun. What next, though? Well, maybe a UAV-lofted repeater. I wonder how well a combination of a balloon for the heavy lifting with a UAV-based payload for station-keeping would work?
-- Gordon JC Pearce MM0YEQ
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi!
There are at least two groups that know of that launch High altitude balloons with amateur payloads. I just joined one: Arizona Near Space Research. http://www.ansr.org/
The other s in Colorado, not sure of the organization's name though.
Edge of Space Sciences. http://www.eoss.org/
The balloons typically reach 90-100K feet in altitude and carry a Crossband repeater and several other payloads, including APRS Digipeaters & SSTV. The footprint is about 300 Miles at burst altitude.
Actually, the footprint has a diameter of several hundred miles. For the ANSR launches from locations in central Arizona, the footprints easily cover almost all of Arizona along with portions of several neighboring states and northwestern Mexico. The following link is a bit old, but the coverage maps at different altitudes are still good and show this better than a text description:
73!
Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK http://www.wd9ewk.net/
Thanks for filling in the holes, Patrick. I'll see you Saturday at the hamfest.
73
Clear Skies
Rick Tejera Saguaro Astronomy Club Phoenix, Arizona www.saguaroastro.org saguaroastro@cox.net K7TEJ, AMSAT 38452
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:55 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Satellite Satire
Hi!
There are at least two groups that know of that launch High altitude balloons with amateur payloads. I just joined one: Arizona Near Space Research. http://www.ansr.org/
The other s in Colorado, not sure of the organization's name though.
Edge of Space Sciences. http://www.eoss.org/
The balloons typically reach 90-100K feet in altitude and carry a
Crossband
repeater and several other payloads, including APRS Digipeaters & SSTV.
The
footprint is about 300 Miles at burst altitude.
Actually, the footprint has a diameter of several hundred miles. For the ANSR launches from locations in central Arizona, the footprints easily cover almost all of Arizona along with portions of several neighboring states and northwestern Mexico. The following link is a bit old, but the coverage maps at different altitudes are still good and show this better than a text description:
73!
Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK http://www.wd9ewk.net/
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
At 11:57 AM 11/30/2011, Lowell White wrote:
Please enlighten me if indeed there might be a way to get something up (and to stay up) more economically.
Well, a bit of physics here. To get from the Earth's surface to LEO requires 10 km/S of delta-V. Even if you could get a payload to orbital altitude by some hypothetical means, you would still need to add 7.5km/S delta-V to bring it up to orbital velocity. From 30km (typical high altitude balloon), the requirement would be somewhere in between 7.5 and 10 km/S, which still means a considerable amount of fuel required.
insertion? If the bird and booster weights were small enough, could a wx balloon lift them adequately?
I suspect the rocket would still be very heavy.
73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com
On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 08:20:11PM +1100, Tony Langdon wrote:
At 11:57 AM 11/30/2011, Lowell White wrote:
Please enlighten me if indeed there might be a way to get something up (and to stay up) more economically.
Well, a bit of physics here. To get from the Earth's surface to LEO requires 10 km/S of delta-V. Even if you could get a payload to
It is an old old idea .
for one link http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/rockoon.htm
I see WB8ELK has been doing it too http://hiwaay.net/~bbrown/
Still, getting the right ratio of balloon/rocket is a problem. Getting the delta V into LEO is still going to be very hard.
73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com
- 73 Diane VA3DB
participants (8)
-
Andy Kellner -
Diane Bruce -
Gordon JC Pearce -
Lowell White -
Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) -
Rick Tejera -
Tony Langdon -
Trevor .