Hello To play the devils advocate for a moment. With a geo (stuck) sattelite we are pretty much stuck with the same foot print forever. Unless of course there is some sort of cross linking in the future. I very fondly recall AO-40 and bringing it up on my computer and seeing where the foot print was today. Maybe it's the Europeans or perhaps the VK's, ZL's (love their accent), or maybe some JA's, (practice my Japanese). At some time, I knew I could cover the whole planet. I do of course believe this is an excellent opportunity, though there are a some limitations.
-- 73 Bob W7LRD AMSAT member 28498 Seattle
This is kind of along the lines of what I was thinking. Please don't get me wrong, I think AMSAT has an excellent opportunity here but won't this take some of the challenge out of things? I missed AO-40 altogether and I'm not active now because I had to sell my equipment but what originally drew me to sat operation in the first place was the challenge and thrill of working birds like the LEO linear and FM birds. I enjoy watching the footprint move across my PC screen. Heck, sometimes I just liked to go out on the deck on a not particularly good pass and watch the antennas track! I'll certainly be back in business for geostationary piggy back systems and use them but I'm thinking it will seem rather ordinary. Any ham who is capable of pointing an antenna to a fixed spot can become satellite active. I know, I know, thats good but it also takes away some of the novelty of it. I guess we can still challenge ourselves with P3E. Again, please don't misconstrue my intention here, I'm not meaning to criticize or complain, I'm just making an observation. 73, Michael, W4HIJ w7lrd@comcast.net wrote:
Hello To play the devils advocate for a moment. With a geo (stuck) sattelite we are pretty much stuck with the same foot print forever. Unless of course there is some sort of cross linking in the future. I very fondly recall AO-40 and bringing it up on my computer and seeing where the foot print was today. Maybe it's the Europeans or perhaps the VK's, ZL's (love their accent), or maybe some JA's, (practice my Japanese). At some time, I knew I could cover the whole planet. I do of course believe this is an excellent opportunity, though there are a some limitations.
-- 73 Bob W7LRD AMSAT member 28498 Seattle _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I was thinking the same thing. One of the things that brought me back into ham radio was the challenge and new experiences. But a geosat sounds like it would be nothing more than an internet chatroom - all it takes is a connection. Don't get me wrong, it will be great for EMCOMM. But, other than that, meh.
Bob
--- Michael Tondee mat_62@netcommander.com wrote:
This is kind of along the lines of what I was thinking. Please don't get me wrong, I think AMSAT has an excellent opportunity here but won't this take some of the challenge out of things? I missed AO-40 altogether and I'm not active now because I had to sell my equipment but what originally drew me to sat operation in the first place was the challenge and thrill of working birds like the LEO linear and FM birds. I enjoy watching the footprint move across my PC screen. Heck, sometimes I just liked to go out on the deck on a not particularly good pass and watch the antennas track! I'll certainly be back in business for geostationary piggy back systems and use them but I'm thinking it will seem rather ordinary. Any ham who is capable of pointing an antenna to a fixed spot can become satellite active. I know, I know, thats good but it also takes away some of the novelty of it. I guess we can still challenge ourselves with P3E. Again, please don't misconstrue my intention here, I'm not meaning to criticize or complain, I'm just making an observation. 73, Michael, W4HIJ w7lrd@comcast.net wrote:
Hello To play the devils advocate for a moment. With a geo (stuck) sattelite we are pretty much stuck with the same foot
print forever. Unless of course there is some sort of cross linking in the future. I very fondly recall AO-40 and bringing it up on my computer and seeing where the foot print was today. Maybe it's the Europeans or perhaps the VK's, ZL's (love their accent), or maybe some JA's, (practice my Japanese). At some time, I knew I could cover the whole planet. I do of course believe this is an excellent opportunity, though there are a some limitations.
-- 73 Bob W7LRD AMSAT member 28498 Seattle _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Are you kidding. It would be a wild West shootout on Field Day (remember there is NO limit on the number of QSOs on the linear sats) Field Day on this satellite would be wall to wall 24 hour contacts. it would make the HF ops with their limited openings salivate at the prospects of what ... 1000 sat contacts, 2000 contacts, more? I can see the sat station by itself with more contacts than all the HF stations at a club's site on FD. Then the sat station would decide where the club would setup. How many could one station work in 1 hour and multiple that by 24. Is there a limit of only one sat station on FD or could we run multiple rigs? The last good FD for me was when AO40 was up. I told my club that i will not even bother going to their FD next year basically because of the sat situation (no help and basically no birds to waste my time and effort).
Les W4SCO
At 04:14 PM 10/31/2007, you wrote:
I was thinking the same thing. One of the things that brought me back into ham radio was the challenge and new experiences. But a geosat sounds like it would be nothing more than an internet chatroom - all it takes is a connection. Don't get me wrong, it will be great for EMCOMM. But, other than that, meh.
Bob
--- Michael Tondee mat_62@netcommander.com wrote:
This is kind of along the lines of what I was thinking. Please don't get me wrong, I think AMSAT has an excellent opportunity here but won't this take some of the challenge out of things? I missed AO-40 altogether and I'm not active now because I had to sell my equipment but what originally drew me to sat operation in the first place was the challenge and thrill of working birds like the LEO linear and FM birds. I enjoy watching the footprint move across my PC screen. Heck, sometimes I just liked to go out on the deck on a not particularly good pass and watch the antennas track! I'll certainly be back in business for geostationary piggy back systems and use them but I'm thinking it will seem rather ordinary. Any ham who is capable of pointing an antenna to a fixed spot can become satellite active. I know, I know, thats good but it also takes away some of the novelty of it. I guess we can still challenge ourselves with P3E. Again, please don't misconstrue my intention here, I'm not meaning to criticize or complain, I'm just making an observation. 73, Michael, W4HIJ w7lrd@comcast.net wrote:
Hello To play the devils advocate for a moment. With a geo (stuck) sattelite we are pretty much stuck with the same foot
print forever. Unless of course there is some sort of cross linking in the future. I very fondly recall AO-40 and bringing it up on my computer and seeing where the foot print was today. Maybe it's the Europeans or perhaps the VK's, ZL's (love their accent), or maybe some JA's, (practice my Japanese). At some time, I knew I could cover the whole planet. I do of course believe this is an excellent opportunity, though there are a some limitations.
-- 73 Bob W7LRD AMSAT member 28498 Seattle _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur
satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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Bob Stewart wrote:
I was thinking the same thing. One of the things that brought me back into ham radio was the challenge and new experiences. But a geosat sounds like it would be nothing more than an internet chatroom - all it takes is a connection. Don't get me wrong, it will be great for EMCOMM. But, other than that, meh.
Bob
The challenge with geosat birds due to the higher orbit (distance) and what not, is in how ACCURATELY you can send the proper uplink signal into the bird without trying it first.
(GRIN... can you calculate your uplink gain to the geosync belt accurately enough to send the right signal level up the first time?)
Sure, it's a one-time trick pony... but it's still a nice little math and knowledge of your own system setup kind of challenge.
I'm sure there'll be plenty of people blowing away the uplink and/or not heard until some folks do the math for them. :-)
(Thus, LEILA on AO-40... when really, if people were doing their math homework and measuring their systems ahead of time -- she shouldn't have been necessary -- right? There's always challenges available in RF systems if you look for them...)
Ask the 70's and 80's TV folks if uplink power into the video bird's transponders was important! (GRIN)
They have some good war-stories of remote trucks blowing away whole transponders while the control rooms yelled at them on the phone to knock it off.
(Nowadays, the TV folks use automated systems that set their uplink power automatically from the control rooms that use a data channel from the control room through the birds that the truck systems monitor, unless that's changed since I last saw one in action.)
Wouldn't that be nifty? A server/automated system that can "see" the bird via it's own receivers, and could command the uplink power automatically from mobile ham's stations so uplink tuning/aiming and power levels for portable stations could be automated?
Now, there's a challenge for ya!
And of course, since it's hams here, and not commercial companies that have control over the uplink equipment, it'd have to be a very flexible system, and be designed in such a way so that hams could assemble/build it on their own (like hams like to do) or if they're a little more lazy or too busy, they might be able to buy a pre-built box that someone else assembled, with connectors for various radios and trackers...
(Sounds like too big a project, but might be fun to try to go do on a limited basis by limiting which trackers and radios are supported.)
Automated anti-QRM... neat-o!
There's always cool stuff to try to do on ham radio! :-)
Nate WY0X
... GEO systems... will seem rather ordinary. Any ham capable of pointing an antenna to a fixed spot can become satellite active.
What is needed for this new opportunity is encouraging the mind set of many AMSAT members towards community service and emeregency preparedness. Just pointing a dish on demand, in crisis, where needed may not be all that easy. The trusty and valuable OM's that show up for most public service events with their trusty IC-2AT's may not be ready for satellite operations.
I am thinking AMSAT (we) need to do more emergency service preparations and tests with our satellites. Not only will that test our capabilities, but we will also need to demonstrate our emergency response capabilities as a group to help sell the nw P4 concept to the supporters of this new Geo initiative.
Can we work up a SSET, Satellite Simulated Emergency Test? Something AMSAT can do to get this bandwagon rolling. Here's a web page on what I am thinking:
http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/sset.html
SATELLITE SIMULATED EMERGENCY TEST:
For the APRS satellites, everyone with an APRS station, or D7 or D700 would try to send an EMAIL reporting location and status via satellite from the field.
For the PACSAT message birds, similarly send a message reporting status from the field.
For the FM and linear birds, have a net control take check-in status from as many field stations as possible.
I hope I'm not not re-inventing someone's wheel. SET was in October and I am not a routine satellite operator, but I do think we need field preparedness. This is not another Field day contest. But this is different. We will have good powerful net controls taking as many low-power check-ins as possible to demonstrate our capability to handle emergency traffic from anywhere. By my count, there is a LEO satellite pass on average at least once an hour most of the day long. Plenty of time during a 2 day test for eveyone to checkin.
With PCSAT-1 returning to service for the next two weeks, I would propose to do this during the 2nd week in November. And to schedule it monthly from then on. Sign up net controls for the FM birds, etc...
Field Operations IS part of this new P4 opportunity. Lets start exercising...
And you can do this all from your mobile without a PC!
See my draft web page... http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/sset.html
Bob, WB4APR
Having heard no objections to the proposed Satellite Simulated Emergency Test, we are proceeding with the APRS satellites: http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/sset.html
I have 4 SSET check'ins so far.
-----Original Message----- What is needed for this new opportunity is encouraging a mind set... Towards... emeregency preparedness.
I am thinking AMSAT (we) need to do more emergency service preparations and tests with our satellites. Not only will that test our capabilities, but we will also need to demonstrate our emergency response capabilities as a group to help sell the new P4 concept to the supporters of this new Geo initiative.
Can we work up a SSET, Satellite Simulated Emergency Test? Something AMSAT can do to get this bandwagon rolling. Here's a web page on what I am thinking:
http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/sset.html
SATELLITE SIMULATED EMERGENCY TEST:
For the APRS satellites, everyone with an APRS station, or D7 or D700 mobile would try to send an EMAIL reporting location and status via satellite from the field.
For the PACSAT message birds, similarly send a message reporting status from the field.
For the Voice birds, have a net control take check-in status from as many field stations as possible.
I hope I'm not not re-inventing someone's wheel. SET was in October and I am not a routine satellite operator, but I do think we need field preparedness. This is not another Field day contest. But this is different. We will have good powerful net controls taking as many low-power check-ins as possible to demonstrate our capability to handle emergency traffic from anywhere. By my count, there is a LEO satellite pass on average at least once an hour most of the day long. Plenty of time during a 2 day test for eveyone to checkin.
With PCSAT-1 returning to service for the next two weeks, I would propose to do this during the 2nd week in November. And to schedule it monthly from then on. Sign up net controls for the FM birds, etc...
Field Operations IS part of this new P4 opportunity. Lets start exercising...
And you can do this all from your mobile without a PC!
See my draft web page... http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/sset.html
Bob, WB4APR
I look forward to a mixture of satellites, including a geo-bird. The geo-bird would allow for system testing with a known source at a known position. The presence of a beacon(s) up above the horizon would mean it would be an excellent source for antenna testing, antenna contests, receiver development, beacon data demodulation development, etc. And, for beginners, it eliminates or drastically reduces two variables to getting on - easy tracking and Doppler compensation. Then, they could move on to more complicated antenna and receiving systems. The satellite could also be used for disseminating important periodic information - even live transmissions from AMSAT conferences.
My two cents,
John WA4WDL AMSAT 10211
Well unless I've misread or misunderstood something the Eagle payloads would now be put to use in the geostationary orbit. There would be no HEO Eagles. We would have one conventional HEO bird in orbit and that would be P3E. Can someone in the know clarify or is it just to early to know for sure? 73, Michael, W4HIJ AMSAT 36017 John Franke wrote:
I look forward to a mixture of satellites, including a geo-bird. The geo-bird would allow for system testing with a known source at a known position. The presence of a beacon(s) up above the horizon would mean it would be an excellent source for antenna testing, antenna contests, receiver development, beacon data demodulation development, etc. And, for beginners, it eliminates or drastically reduces two variables to getting on - easy tracking and Doppler compensation. Then, they could move on to more complicated antenna and receiving systems. The satellite could also be used for disseminating important periodic information - even live transmissions from AMSAT conferences.
My two cents,
John WA4WDL AMSAT 10211
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Quoting Michael Tondee mat_62@netcommander.com:
Well unless I've misread or misunderstood something the Eagle payloads would now be put to use in the geostationary orbit. There would be no HEO Eagles. We would have one conventional HEO bird in orbit and that would be P3E. Can someone in the know clarify or is it just to early to
know for sure? 73, Michael, W4HIJ
We should keep SSETI-ESEO's mode U/S transponder in mind.
http://www.sseti.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=198&a...
Could be a bit of a black-belt affair, since the power would be 10w and I don't think they can count on much gain, but still seems to me to be a conventional HEO bird.
In any case, phase IV has been a long-standing dream of AMSAT; it seems we are closer than ever to realizing that dream. It also is a very practical platform for emergency communications, an application that as a group we have wanted to support but to which our current and prospective orbits have frankly not been ideally-suited. Finally, the scarcity of HEO rides has been a dark cloud over two of three up-coming HEO projects worldwide. By negotiating a new source for these, our board is taking important steps in assuring the future of just about any project.
There is some concern that a geostationary HEO will be less fun because it is easier to track. We should remember that the equation that solves for 'fun' has 'experience' as one of its variables. Thus, for a new ham, setting up an s-band dish to point at a geostationary satellite will provide a great deal of challenge and of satisfaction. For the more experienced, the advanced communication package should make a similar offer.
It's amazing to read some of the great ideas spinning off from this opportunity. I imagine my daughter's grade 7 geology class being augmented by a live link with a park ranger in the Canadian North. No other AMSAT project would lend itself well to such a use.
We should seek to make this not only an important part of the amateur emergency toolkit, but also a must-have resource for schools around North America. Just as ARISS offers schools a glimpse into life aboard ISS, a 'Learning on the Edge' program could link students with people in remote locations. It would train and equip people destined for remote locations and would, with local ham help, equip schools to communicate with the people in the field. These adventurers and scientists would make 1/2h contacts with each of the schools in the network, explaining their work and the place they are in.
73, Bruce VE9QRP
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Robertson" broberts@mta.ca To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 10:14 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: geo stationary bird
Quoting Michael Tondee mat_62@netcommander.com:
Well unless I've misread or misunderstood something the Eagle payloads would now be put to use in the geostationary orbit. There would be no HEO Eagles. We would have one conventional HEO bird in orbit and that would be P3E. Can someone in the know clarify or is it just to early to
know for sure? 73, Michael, W4HIJ
We should keep SSETI-ESEO's mode U/S transponder in mind.
http://www.sseti.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=198&a...
Could be a bit of a black-belt affair, since the power would be 10w and I don't think they can count on much gain, but still seems to me to be a conventional HEO bird.
In any case, phase IV has been a long-standing dream of AMSAT; it seems we are closer than ever to realizing that dream. It also is a very practical platform for emergency communications, an application that as a group we have wanted to support but to which our current and prospective orbits have frankly not been ideally-suited. Finally, the scarcity of HEO rides has been a dark cloud over two of three up-coming HEO projects worldwide. By negotiating a new source for these, our board is taking important steps in assuring the future of just about any project.
There is some concern that a geostationary HEO will be less fun because it is easier to track. We should remember that the equation that solves for 'fun' has 'experience' as one of its variables. Thus, for a new ham, setting up an s-band dish to point at a geostationary satellite will provide a great deal of challenge and of satisfaction. For the more experienced, the advanced communication package should make a similar offer.
It's amazing to read some of the great ideas spinning off from this opportunity. I imagine my daughter's grade 7 geology class being augmented by a live link with a park ranger in the Canadian North. No other AMSAT project would lend itself well to such a use.
We should seek to make this not only an important part of the amateur emergency toolkit, but also a must-have resource for schools around North America. Just as ARISS offers schools a glimpse into life aboard ISS, a 'Learning on the Edge' program could link students with people in remote locations. It would train and equip people destined for remote locations and would, with local ham help, equip schools to communicate with the people in the field. These adventurers and scientists would make 1/2h contacts with each of the schools in the network, explaining their work and the place they are in.
73, Bruce VE9QRP _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
-- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12 - Release Date: 10/26/2007 12:00 AM
Oops, sorry about the blank message i previously sent...
I just wanted to add my little bit to the geostationary thing: I suppose that going over the stuff already said about the pros and cons, of this new possible venue, some of us seem to be focussed on either the pros or the cons, but just barely failing to see an important larger picture. I prefer to see the issue as comparing it to all the other forms of the larger Amateur Radio community: nothing is for everybody, but as long as people can benefit from it, the interested parties should be encouraged to complete their project. For the unimpressed parties who see the limitations, this won't be the last satellite.
Personally, I will be GLAD to see a HEO(gerstationary or otherwise) satellite FINALLY operable again, and opening-up a range of opportunities beyond line-of-sight for operators who do not posess HF equipment, as well as for those so-restricted for other reasons. The VHF and up bands can get pretty lonely if you live in a remote place... which is something an HF operator might not be familiar with. If there is congestion on the HEO transponder(s), that can only feed the need for additional satellites... I'd rather see sats overutilized, than empty! One benefit I am particularly fond of, is the emergency/priority communications aspect. for the first time EVER, a satellite can be used by amateur class stations located in dire places/situations which will not require active tracking, allowing an antenna system to be set-up and aimed by means of listening for a beacon, and then proceeding to act of communicating without adjustments to the antenna for any amount of time! The communications package that can be used, can be compact-enough to stow, and reliable enough to set up in any situation. As Emergency comms has become somewhat of a cornerstone of Amateur Radio's public image, in addition to it's bargaining power with the bandplanning regulators, The importance of this ability carries implications affecting the hobby as a whole. The large footprint of such a satellite also virtually guarantees an audience when one is needed. I envision a specific section of a linear transponder or other type of transponder provision being dedicated to emergency calling just as CB channel 19 had always been intended. Permanent monitoring of such a system brings yet another benefit to the emergency caller.
I am also curious about the 15-year lifespan mentioned... Would that mean that the spacecraft is expected to fail after about 15 years, or is it expected to last a minimum of 15 years? As we have seen before, certain spacecraft have been known to have useful lifetimes easily doubling 15 years, and 6 times it's own design lifespan!
well, what I thought was going to be a few lines turned out to be a rambling few paragraphs! I can't wait to hear a new satellite whose footprint coverage lasts more than 15 minutes be it geostationary, or Elliptical, or Molniya!
Auke, VE6PWN
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Robertson" broberts@mta.ca To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 10:14 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: geo stationary bird
Quoting Michael Tondee mat_62@netcommander.com:
Well unless I've misread or misunderstood something the Eagle payloads would now be put to use in the geostationary orbit. There would be no HEO Eagles. We would have one conventional HEO bird in orbit and that would be P3E. Can someone in the know clarify or is it just to early to
know for sure? 73, Michael, W4HIJ
We should keep SSETI-ESEO's mode U/S transponder in mind.
http://www.sseti.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=198&a...
Could be a bit of a black-belt affair, since the power would be 10w and I don't think they can count on much gain, but still seems to me to be a conventional HEO bird.
In any case, phase IV has been a long-standing dream of AMSAT; it seems we are closer than ever to realizing that dream. It also is a very practical platform for emergency communications, an application that as a group we have wanted to support but to which our current and prospective orbits have frankly not been ideally-suited. Finally, the scarcity of HEO rides has been a dark cloud over two of three up-coming HEO projects worldwide. By negotiating a new source for these, our board is taking important steps in assuring the future of just about any project.
There is some concern that a geostationary HEO will be less fun because it is easier to track. We should remember that the equation that solves for 'fun' has 'experience' as one of its variables. Thus, for a new ham, setting up an s-band dish to point at a geostationary satellite will provide a great deal of challenge and of satisfaction. For the more experienced, the advanced communication package should make a similar offer.
It's amazing to read some of the great ideas spinning off from this opportunity. I imagine my daughter's grade 7 geology class being augmented by a live link with a park ranger in the Canadian North. No other AMSAT project would lend itself well to such a use.
We should seek to make this not only an important part of the amateur emergency toolkit, but also a must-have resource for schools around North America. Just as ARISS offers schools a glimpse into life aboard ISS, a 'Learning on the Edge' program could link students with people in remote locations. It would train and equip people destined for remote locations and would, with local ham help, equip schools to communicate with the people in the field. These adventurers and scientists would make 1/2h contacts with each of the schools in the network, explaining their work and the place they are in.
73, Bruce VE9QRP _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
-- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12 - Release Date: 10/26/2007 12:00 AM
Speaking as someone who operates commercial communications satellites, I think one of the bigger negative points of geo is cost. My employer pays approx $200 - $250 Million per satellite to be delivered on orbit. Plus we operate a 24 hour station that employs 25+ people and pay contract support to the manufacturer for each spacecraft we have in geo orbit. That would get a little pricey for an AMSAT project. I do however think we could get a commercial operator to allow us to piggy back a payload on one of their birds if we approached it from that angle. That would allow us to save the expense since they would be flying it anyway.
To answer your question on spacecraft life, most of the satellites our company purchases have a "Contract Life" of 13-15 years. That is they are designed to last 13-15 years minimum, and have enough fuel on board for station keeping that long. They may last longer, they may last shorter. I have seen spacecraft last 18 years (beyond station keeping fuel supply), and I have seen spacecraft catastrophically fail within a few years, or even on boost to orbit. Examples would be spacecraft like AO-40 that catastrophically failed long before it was expected to.
73 DE Mark KK7CU Auke de Jong wrote:
Oops, sorry about the blank message i previously sent...
I just wanted to add my little bit to the geostationary thing: I suppose that going over the stuff already said about the pros and cons, of this new possible venue, some of us seem to be focussed on either the pros or the cons, but just barely failing to see an important larger picture. I prefer to see the issue as comparing it to all the other forms of the larger Amateur Radio community: nothing is for everybody, but as long as people can benefit from it, the interested parties should be encouraged to complete their project. For the unimpressed parties who see the limitations, this won't be the last satellite.
Personally, I will be GLAD to see a HEO(gerstationary or otherwise) satellite FINALLY operable again, and opening-up a range of opportunities beyond line-of-sight for operators who do not posess HF equipment, as well as for those so-restricted for other reasons. The VHF and up bands can get pretty lonely if you live in a remote place... which is something an HF operator might not be familiar with. If there is congestion on the HEO transponder(s), that can only feed the need for additional satellites... I'd rather see sats overutilized, than empty! One benefit I am particularly fond of, is the emergency/priority communications aspect. for the first time EVER, a satellite can be used by amateur class stations located in dire places/situations which will not require active tracking, allowing an antenna system to be set-up and aimed by means of listening for a beacon, and then proceeding to act of communicating without adjustments to the antenna for any amount of time! The communications package that can be used, can be compact-enough to stow, and reliable enough to set up in any situation. As Emergency comms has become somewhat of a cornerstone of Amateur Radio's public image, in addition to it's bargaining power with the bandplanning regulators, The importance of this ability carries implications affecting the hobby as a whole. The large footprint of such a satellite also virtually guarantees an audience when one is needed. I envision a specific section of a linear transponder or other type of transponder provision being dedicated to emergency calling just as CB channel 19 had always been intended. Permanent monitoring of such a system brings yet another benefit to the emergency caller.
I am also curious about the 15-year lifespan mentioned... Would that mean that the spacecraft is expected to fail after about 15 years, or is it expected to last a minimum of 15 years? As we have seen before, certain spacecraft have been known to have useful lifetimes easily doubling 15 years, and 6 times it's own design lifespan!
well, what I thought was going to be a few lines turned out to be a rambling few paragraphs! I can't wait to hear a new satellite whose footprint coverage lasts more than 15 minutes be it geostationary, or Elliptical, or Molniya!
Auke, VE6PWN
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Robertson" broberts@mta.ca To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 10:14 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: geo stationary bird
Quoting Michael Tondee mat_62@netcommander.com:
Well unless I've misread or misunderstood something the Eagle payloads would now be put to use in the geostationary orbit. There would be no HEO Eagles. We would have one conventional HEO bird in orbit and that would be P3E. Can someone in the know clarify or is it just to early to
know for sure? 73, Michael, W4HIJ
We should keep SSETI-ESEO's mode U/S transponder in mind.
http://www.sseti.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=198&a...
Could be a bit of a black-belt affair, since the power would be 10w and I don't think they can count on much gain, but still seems to me to be a conventional HEO bird.
In any case, phase IV has been a long-standing dream of AMSAT; it seems we are closer than ever to realizing that dream. It also is a very practical platform for emergency communications, an application that as a group we have wanted to support but to which our current and prospective orbits have frankly not been ideally-suited. Finally, the scarcity of HEO rides has been a dark cloud over two of three up-coming HEO projects worldwide. By negotiating a new source for these, our board is taking important steps in assuring the future of just about any project.
There is some concern that a geostationary HEO will be less fun because it is easier to track. We should remember that the equation that solves for 'fun' has 'experience' as one of its variables. Thus, for a new ham, setting up an s-band dish to point at a geostationary satellite will provide a great deal of challenge and of satisfaction. For the more experienced, the advanced communication package should make a similar offer.
It's amazing to read some of the great ideas spinning off from this opportunity. I imagine my daughter's grade 7 geology class being augmented by a live link with a park ranger in the Canadian North. No other AMSAT project would lend itself well to such a use.
We should seek to make this not only an important part of the amateur emergency toolkit, but also a must-have resource for schools around North America. Just as ARISS offers schools a glimpse into life aboard ISS, a 'Learning on the Edge' program could link students with people in remote locations. It would train and equip people destined for remote locations and would, with local ham help, equip schools to communicate with the people in the field. These adventurers and scientists would make 1/2h contacts with each of the schools in the network, explaining their work and the place they are in.
73, Bruce VE9QRP _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I think that people tend to wax sentimental when a new satellite goes up that fails to meet their sense of what the hobby is. I see geosync/phase4 being a great boon for the entire amateur hobby. Not only does it provide a means for us to do plug-n-play radio, but it also allows us to use parts of the spectrum that until recently have had no reason for usage. We would be able to utilize our band allocation rather than having them sit dormant risking reallocation by the FCC or other governing authority. Not having to compensate for doppler and with higher frequencies means we'll be able to fit more into what we're given and be able to "get back to our roots" instead of using the Internet as a bandaid for what we do. (Remember those old battles about IRLP repeaters is not really ham radio since the long haul isn't over a radio link?). Most definitely there will be extra expense unless you're a S-Band operator already which in their case, they probably have all the parts to hit 24+ghz in their junk bins. But the ability to have clear radio links anywhere the footprint sits, makes for an exciting hobby. Since most of us use directional antennas already, the thrill of tracking/tuning is still there for the existing LEO birds *and* I doubt by any stretch of the imagination that microsat/picosats will be going away for a long time. Colleges and Universities are sending them up more and more so they can teach engineering practices and be able to send up new "experiments" that would most likely be beyond the realm of the geosync/phase4 constellation.
That being said, I think the payload that goes up on the geosync/phase4 birds should reflect not only the current but the future of radio since they'll be sitting there for the better part of 15-20 years. Let's not dwell on the past where we try to accommodate everyone from DC to daylight and focus on bands/technologies that reflect the experience we've gained from 50 years of space flight. And since we don't have to deal with much stationkeeping tasks, more effort can be put into redundant RUDAK's and better efficiency in the power budget.
Any idea of where the proposed longitude locations will be and footprints? Will it be a shared antenna array? I'd love to know the engineering details of the agreement.
de Don - KL7EET
Michael Tondee wrote:
This is kind of along the lines of what I was thinking. Please don't get me wrong, I think AMSAT has an excellent opportunity here but won't this take some of the challenge out of things? I missed AO-40 altogether and I'm not active now because I had to sell my equipment but what originally drew me to sat operation in the first place was the challenge and thrill of working birds like the LEO linear and FM birds. I enjoy watching the footprint move across my PC screen. Heck, sometimes I just liked to go out on the deck on a not particularly good pass and watch the antennas track! I'll certainly be back in business for geostationary piggy back systems and use them but I'm thinking it will seem rather ordinary. Any ham who is capable of pointing an antenna to a fixed spot can become satellite active. I know, I know, thats good but it also takes away some of the novelty of it. I guess we can still challenge ourselves with P3E. Again, please don't misconstrue my intention here, I'm not meaning to criticize or complain, I'm just making an observation. 73, Michael, W4HIJ w7lrd@comcast.net wrote:
Hello To play the devils advocate for a moment. With a geo (stuck) sattelite we are pretty much stuck with the same foot print forever. Unless of course there is some sort of cross linking in the future. I very fondly recall AO-40 and bringing it up on my computer and seeing where the foot print was today. Maybe it's the Europeans or perhaps the VK's, ZL's (love their accent), or maybe some JA's, (practice my Japanese). At some time, I knew I could cover the whole planet. I do of course believe this is an excellent opportunity, though there are a some limitations.
-- 73 Bob W7LRD AMSAT member 28498 Seattle _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
At 07:50 AM 11/1/2007, Don Fanning wrote:
I think that people tend to wax sentimental when a new satellite goes up that fails to meet their sense of what the hobby is. I see geosync/phase4 being a great boon for the entire amateur hobby. Not
I agree. I certainly see a lot of opportunity in a Phase 4 bird (providing there's one I can reach!). LEOs are OK to dabble in, but with the distances involved, they barely get us out of our backyard. Exotic prefixes for a LEO are VK9, P29 and 3D2, with the rest being VKs and ZLs. The rest of the neighbouring countries don't have anyone capable of even FM satellite operation (2m all mode and 70cm FM gear is not common outside of VK/ZL). Phase 3 and Phase 4 are much more interesting to us here as a result. Phase 4 could also be useful for travellers, if one can be reached using a reasonably sized surplus TV dish. This could be a nice alternative path to the "Travellers Net", especially when HF conditions are poor across the country.
only does it provide a means for us to do plug-n-play radio, but it also allows us to use parts of the spectrum that until recently have had no reason for usage. We would be able to utilize our band allocation rather than having them sit dormant risking reallocation by the FCC or other governing authority. Not having to compensate for doppler and with higher frequencies means we'll be able to fit more into what we're given and be able to "get back to our roots" instead of using the
A geosync bird with extensive microwave bandwidth could have a lot of utility in both analog and digital modes.
That being said, I think the payload that goes up on the geosync/phase4 birds should reflect not only the current but the future of radio since they'll be sitting there for the better part of 15-20 years. Let's not
Agreed, and I feel that high speed digital and SDXs should be a major part of the package. If course, analog backup for redundancy is a good idea, in case the DSPs get fried by severe radiation levels.
Any idea of where the proposed longitude locations will be and footprints? Will it be a shared antenna array? I'd love to know the engineering details of the agreement.
Guess that will have to come out later. :)
73 de VK3JED http://vkradio.com
participants (12)
-
Auke de Jong -
Bob Stewart -
Bruce Robertson -
Don Fanning -
John Franke -
Mark Lockwood -
Michael Tondee -
Nate Duehr -
Robert Bruninga -
sco＠sco-inc.com -
Tony Langdon -
w7lrd＠comcast.net