Re: Relative merits power divider vs power divider/combiner
As long as all ports are terminated properly, they both are reciprocal devices--they work the same on RX as they do on TX. If ports are mismatched, different things happen between A and B (and that's true for both RX and TX) Device A will show mismatched impedances at all other ports, and may no longer evenly divide power. Device B will show no mismatch at the 3 input/output ports, but power will be dissipated in the port 4 load. Note that a properly designed Device A will not be mismatched on RX at the split ports.
The main advantage of Device B is the relaxation of the requirements of precise impedance control. -- Scott Townley NX7U Gilbert, AZ DM43di
---- Joop & Tineke Verdoes [email protected] wrote:
OM-s As I got so much truely valuable and usable feedback on my hybrid power divider/combiner questions, I now dare to ask the following.
For making circulary polarised yagis one needs to split 'things' over two yagis There are basically two ways to split power A- use a 36 ohm power splitter, often a piece of waveguide with one connector on one end(for the TRX) and two connectors (for the Yagis) on the other end B- use a 70 (75) ohm hybrid power splitter/divider, which has 4 ports, one extra for a terminator. The TRX sees just 50Ohm.
A- and B- are both fine for SPLITTING power. In both cases the TRX sees 50ohm, although there are two 50ohm connected in parallel and the other side of the divider. So both are fine for transmit.
But...... A- Is ONLY a power splitter seen from the transmitter's side, it does present a mis-match as seen from the yagi, so on receive things are less than optimal B- Does work both ways, it presents a nice 50ohm port to the yagi, but the RX signal is split between the RX and the other yagi, so the signal that goes to the RX is 3db down.
Does anybody have a view on how "bad" A- is vs B-?
Have fun Joop, PA1JAV
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Scott, Joop:
The question was feeding two yagis to produce circular pol. The impedance is tranformed by either 36-ohm or 70-ohm sections of coax. However, in A the yagis must be physically offset one half wavelength to produce the 90-degree phase shift required for circular-pol (that can be accomplished by one leg of the phasing harness being longer by half-wavelength instead of physical offseting the yagis).
Approach B is using a quadrature hybrid which takes care of both impedance transform and phasing shifts. If one separates Rx and Tx on two of the input ports and connect each yagi to the two outpot ports, there is no loss. The input ports are isolated from each other depending on how well the hybrid is built. This is the common approach used for 1296-eme where RX and Tx are opposite sense of circular pol. (Tx-RHCP, Rx-LHCP). For satellite use one would terminate one input port with a 50-ohm load to use the same sense CP in Rx and Tx.
There is some transmission-line loss thru either approach.
73's Ed - KL7UW
At 09:58 AM 11/21/2006 -0500, Scott Townley wrote:
As long as all ports are terminated properly, they both are reciprocal
devices--they work the same on RX as they do on TX.
If ports are mismatched, different things happen between A and B (and
that's true for both RX and TX)
Device A will show mismatched impedances at all other ports, and may no
longer evenly divide power.
Device B will show no mismatch at the 3 input/output ports, but power will
be dissipated in the port 4 load.
Note that a properly designed Device A will not be mismatched on RX at the
split ports.
The main advantage of Device B is the relaxation of the requirements of
precise impedance control.
-- Scott Townley NX7U Gilbert, AZ DM43di
---- Joop & Tineke Verdoes [email protected] wrote:
OM-s As I got so much truely valuable and usable feedback on my hybrid power divider/combiner questions, I now dare to ask the following.
For making circulary polarised yagis one needs to split 'things' over two yagis There are basically two ways to split power A- use a 36 ohm power splitter, often a piece of waveguide with one connector on one end(for the TRX) and two connectors (for the Yagis) on the other end B- use a 70 (75) ohm hybrid power splitter/divider, which has 4 ports, one extra for a terminator. The TRX sees just 50Ohm.
A- and B- are both fine for SPLITTING power. In both cases the TRX sees 50ohm, although there are two 50ohm connected in parallel and the other side of the divider. So both are fine for transmit.
But...... A- Is ONLY a power splitter seen from the transmitter's side, it does present a mis-match as seen from the yagi, so on receive things are less than optimal B- Does work both ways, it presents a nice 50ohm port to the yagi, but the RX signal is split between the RX and the other yagi, so the signal that goes to the RX is 3db down.
Does anybody have a view on how "bad" A- is vs B-?
Have fun Joop, PA1JAV
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
73's, Ed - KL7UW ========================================= http://www.qsl.net/al7eb - BP40iq 144-EME: FT-847, mgf-1801/1402, 4xM2-xpol-20, 170w 432-EME: FT-847, mgf-1402, 1x21-ele (18.6 dBi), 60w USA Rep. for Dubus Magazine: [email protected] =========================================
Correction:
IN A: the spacing is 1/4 wavelength to produce 90-deg shift. IN B: the quadrature hybrid provides the 90-deg shift so yagis can be co-located on the boom.
Sorry for any confusion - KL7UW
At 06:42 AM 11/21/2006 -0900, Edward R. Cole wrote:
Scott, Joop:
The question was feeding two yagis to produce circular pol. The impedance is tranformed by either 36-ohm or 70-ohm sections of coax. However, in A the yagis must be physically offset one half wavelength to produce the 90-degree phase shift required for circular-pol (that can be accomplished by one leg of the phasing harness being longer by half-wavelength instead of physical offseting the yagis).
Approach B is using a quadrature hybrid which takes care of both impedance transform and phasing shifts. If one separates Rx and Tx on two of the input ports and connect each yagi to the two outpot ports, there is no loss. The input ports are isolated from each other depending on how well the hybrid is built. This is the common approach used for 1296-eme where RX and Tx are opposite sense of circular pol. (Tx-RHCP, Rx-LHCP). For satellite use one would terminate one input port with a 50-ohm load to use the same sense CP in Rx and Tx.
There is some transmission-line loss thru either approach.
73's Ed - KL7UW
At 09:58 AM 11/21/2006 -0500, Scott Townley wrote:
As long as all ports are terminated properly, they both are reciprocal
devices--they work the same on RX as they do on TX.
If ports are mismatched, different things happen between A and B (and
that's true for both RX and TX)
Device A will show mismatched impedances at all other ports, and may no
longer evenly divide power.
Device B will show no mismatch at the 3 input/output ports, but power will
be dissipated in the port 4 load.
Note that a properly designed Device A will not be mismatched on RX at the
split ports.
The main advantage of Device B is the relaxation of the requirements of
precise impedance control.
-- Scott Townley NX7U Gilbert, AZ DM43di
---- Joop & Tineke Verdoes [email protected] wrote:
OM-s As I got so much truely valuable and usable feedback on my hybrid power divider/combiner questions, I now dare to ask the following.
For making circulary polarised yagis one needs to split 'things' over two yagis There are basically two ways to split power A- use a 36 ohm power splitter, often a piece of waveguide with one connector on one end(for the TRX) and two connectors (for the Yagis) on the other end B- use a 70 (75) ohm hybrid power splitter/divider, which has 4 ports, one extra for a terminator. The TRX sees just 50Ohm.
A- and B- are both fine for SPLITTING power. In both cases the TRX sees 50ohm, although there are two 50ohm connected in parallel and the other side of the divider. So both are fine for transmit.
But...... A- Is ONLY a power splitter seen from the transmitter's side, it does present a mis-match as seen from the yagi, so on receive things are less than optimal B- Does work both ways, it presents a nice 50ohm port to the yagi, but the RX signal is split between the RX and the other yagi, so the signal that goes to the RX is 3db down.
Does anybody have a view on how "bad" A- is vs B-?
Have fun Joop, PA1JAV
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
73's, Ed - KL7UW ========================================= http://www.qsl.net/al7eb - BP40iq 144-EME: FT-847, mgf-1801/1402, 4xM2-xpol-20, 170w 432-EME: FT-847, mgf-1402, 1x21-ele (18.6 dBi), 60w USA Rep. for Dubus Magazine: [email protected] =========================================
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (2)
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Edward R. Cole -
Scott Townley