Re: OT: Universal Text Messaging and Pagers (WAS Re: Re: dream)
Using paging devices on Amateur Radio is perfectly legal like any other radio. It all boils down to use. If you use it for setting up a one-way systemm for a pizza delivery service, it is clearly illegal. If you use it as part of your overall local communications network of amateur radio volunters it is just one more tool in the tool box.
Unfortunately, the way Part 97 currently reads is that most pager transmissions to an individual are illegal under §97.111(b), as it is a "one way" transmission that, in most cases, would not qualify under the "legal" list.
Sorry, one can also claim that every transmission is one-way because only under full duplex conditions is a system truely two-way. There are all kinds of applications in amateur radio where one side of the link uses different hardware than the other return side, and once can make all kinds of arguments as to how much delay is involved between the transmission and the receiption.. 3 seconds? 10 seconds, a minute? 10 minutes? A day? When you make a call to a party TO ESTABLISH commmunications it is one way, until the person gets his system going and responds.
In my mind a pager is just another way of making the call. THe intent is NOT ONE WAY, it is to provide a call-up or a message as part of a CLEARLY TWO-WAY amateur network.
There is no reason to nit pick rules. When one is broadcasting (one way) to the general public or using amateur radio inappropriately, I think everyone can tell when it is blatanly illegal. I just don't see the FCC cares one nit about some of these debates when any one can see that hams are taking initiative to better their use of the radio art.
You just have to ignore the curmudgeons who have nothing better to do than nit-pick ways to prevent other hams from developing useful applications of technology. A pager is simply the text-to-user device integrated into the normal local 2-way amateur radio communications system.
The issue is that, according to Part 97, it can't be used beyond QSTs, telemetry, or "necessary" emergency communications. Could I get away with setting up such a system? Likely. Do I foot to stand on when my local OO comes knocking? Not so much.
Some OO's are part of the problem, not the solution...
An amateur satellite would make a great downlink to these pagers. Again, the goal should simply be, any message, any time, anywhere using any device to any user by callsign alone.
Bob, WB4APR
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Bob Bruninga wrote:
*snip*
We'll agree to disagree regarding your take of the rules as almost everyone else did on APRSSIG. ;)
There is no reason to nit pick rules. When one is broadcasting (one way) to the general public or using amateur radio inappropriately, I think everyone can tell when it is blatanly illegal. I just don't see the FCC cares one nit about some of these debates when any one can see that hams are taking initiative to better their use of the radio art.
Considering that they've recently ruled on whether contesters should give blanket "5-by-9" signals, I'd think they'd be glad to rule on something interesting and relevant. :)
You just have to ignore the curmudgeons who have nothing better to do than nit-pick ways to prevent other hams from developing useful applications of technology. A pager is simply the text-to-user device integrated into the normal local 2-way amateur radio communications system.
The issue is that, according to Part 97, it can't be used beyond QSTs, telemetry, or "necessary" emergency communications. Could I get away with setting up such a system? Likely. Do I foot to stand on when my local OO comes knocking? Not so much.
Some OO's are part of the problem, not the solution...
Then the solution has presented itself. Get a ruling from the FCC regarding the use of transmissions to receive-only devices such as pagers. Then we can finally put this issue to rest and if anyone comes knocking regarding the legality of these transmissions, we can have something concrete to cite.
Again, I'd love to set up something like this, but I'd be hard pressed to spend a chunk of money on a system that could be taken down if someone files a complaint to the FCC.
Let's take any further discussion about this offline.
- -- Ben Jackson - N1WBV - New Bedford, MA bbj <at> innismir.net - http://www.innismir.net/
But traditionally we've always transmitted to receive only devices. In the early days, you had a general coverage receiverand a seperate crystal controlled transmitter with, in the days of battery supplies, nothing connecting the two. They are definately both one way only devices.
And where in the rules does it say that the reply to a transmission has to be instant. It rarely was using the AX25 packet network. Whilst with packet or TOR there is usually an ACK packet, that's for housekeeping and not communication between the stations. A reply tomorrow to a message today is valid.
Ben Jackson wrote: Get a ruling from the FCC regarding the use of transmissions to receive-only devices
Having been the recipient of many OO reports during my Novice Days (I used to tune my Globe Scout for maximum smoke into a 60 watt light bulb as a dummy load and then just switch to my 80 meter antenna...)and a rabid satellite APRS user...
...I volunteer to be the first person to send out pager data on the satellites as the test station...not having changed callsigns in 40+ years, some of the OOs will probably recognize me as already being in their logs...
My Mom can forward the cards from my original address if the OO's don't have up to date Callbooks.
Roger WA1KAT
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Jackson" bbj@innismir.net To: "Bob Bruninga" bruninga@usna.edu Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:20 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: OT: Universal Text Messaging and Pagers (WAS Re: Re:dream)
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Bob Bruninga wrote:
*snip*
We'll agree to disagree regarding your take of the rules as almost everyone else did on APRSSIG. ;)
There is no reason to nit pick rules. When one is broadcasting (one way) to the general public or using amateur radio inappropriately, I think everyone can tell when it is blatanly illegal. I just don't see the FCC cares one nit about some of these debates when any one can see that hams are taking initiative to better their use of the radio art.
Considering that they've recently ruled on whether contesters should give blanket "5-by-9" signals, I'd think they'd be glad to rule on something interesting and relevant. :)
You just have to ignore the curmudgeons who have nothing better to do than nit-pick ways to prevent other hams from developing useful applications of technology. A pager is simply the text-to-user device integrated into the normal local 2-way amateur radio communications system.
The issue is that, according to Part 97, it can't be used beyond QSTs, telemetry, or "necessary" emergency communications. Could I get away with setting up such a system? Likely. Do I foot to stand on when my local OO comes knocking? Not so much.
Some OO's are part of the problem, not the solution...
Then the solution has presented itself. Get a ruling from the FCC regarding the use of transmissions to receive-only devices such as pagers. Then we can finally put this issue to rest and if anyone comes knocking regarding the legality of these transmissions, we can have something concrete to cite.
Again, I'd love to set up something like this, but I'd be hard pressed to spend a chunk of money on a system that could be taken down if someone files a complaint to the FCC.
Let's take any further discussion about this offline.
Ben Jackson - N1WBV - New Bedford, MA bbj <at> innismir.net - http://www.innismir.net/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
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Doesn't anyone know someone at the FCC to get a prelim opinion or 'sense of the commission' without a rule having to be made? A phone call maybe...
Dave DM78qd // KA0SWT If it weren't for Philo T. Farnsworth, inventor of television, we'd still be eating frozen radio dinners.-- Johnny Carson +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Bob Bruninga Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 7:55 AM To: Ben Jackson Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: OT: Universal Text Messaging and Pagers (WAS Re: Re: dream)
Using paging devices on Amateur Radio is perfectly legal like any other radio. It all boils down to use. If you use it for setting up a one-way systemm for a pizza delivery service, it is clearly illegal. If you use it as part of your overall local communications network of amateur radio volunters it is just one more tool in the tool box.
Unfortunately, the way Part 97 currently reads is that most pager transmissions to an individual are illegal under §97.111(b), as it is a "one way" transmission that, in most cases, would not qualify under the "legal" list.
Sorry, one can also claim that every transmission is one-way because only under full duplex conditions is a system truely two-way. There are all kinds of applications in amateur radio where one side of the link uses different hardware than the other return side, and once can make all kinds of arguments as to how much delay is involved between the transmission and the receiption.. 3 seconds? 10 seconds, a minute? 10 minutes? A day? When you make a call to a party TO ESTABLISH commmunications it is one way, until the person gets his system going and responds.
In my mind a pager is just another way of making the call. THe intent is NOT ONE WAY, it is to provide a call-up or a message as part of a CLEARLY TWO-WAY amateur network.
There is no reason to nit pick rules. When one is broadcasting (one way) to the general public or using amateur radio inappropriately, I think everyone can tell when it is blatanly illegal. I just don't see the FCC cares one nit about some of these debates when any one can see that hams are taking initiative to better their use of the radio art.
You just have to ignore the curmudgeons who have nothing better to do than nit-pick ways to prevent other hams from developing useful applications of technology. A pager is simply the text-to-user device integrated into the normal local 2-way amateur radio communications system.
The issue is that, according to Part 97, it can't be used beyond QSTs, telemetry, or "necessary" emergency communications. Could I get away with setting up such a system? Likely. Do I foot to stand on when my local OO comes knocking? Not so much.
Some OO's are part of the problem, not the solution...
An amateur satellite would make a great downlink to these pagers. Again, the goal should simply be, any message, any time, anywhere using any device to any user by callsign alone.
Bob, WB4APR
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
At 11:55 PM 7/7/2009, Bob Bruninga wrote:
In my mind a pager is just another way of making the call. THe intent is NOT ONE WAY, it is to provide a call-up or a message as part of a CLEARLY TWO-WAY amateur network.
For me, the use of modified pagers has a LOT of advantages. There are times when I don't get to listen to the radio much, or wander off at the wrong moment, when someone's looking for me. Having a pager facility would fill those gaps, and it sounds like it's not too difficult to integrate that into the APRS network. I'm also an easy case, because I spend a lot of time in the same general area (around here). Anyway, might be a way to recycle some redundant hardware that's lying around.
There is no reason to nit pick rules. When one is broadcasting (one way) to the general public or using amateur radio inappropriately, I think everyone can tell when it is blatanly illegal. I just don't see the FCC cares one nit about some of these debates when any one can see that hams are taking initiative to better their use of the radio art.
Besides, it's easier to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission, when it comes to the rules, if you breached them unknowingly, while acting in good faith.
We had some similar issues in the past with a local club wanting to do an innovative amateur related (i.e. club and local ham goings on) news broadcast, and one of the rules that was brought into play was about 1 way transmissions, so the news broadcasters came up with a clever solution. It was to be an extended test transmission, with signal reports from those "participating" in the "test" before and afterwards. :) While the news broadcast lasted only 3 years, due to participant burnout, it did lead to a significant change in the regulations here, for the better. I participated as a relay station and also automatically recorded each news broadcast as it went to air. There are archives lurking around somewhere. Should also have them on a hard disk and on the web too.
73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com
On Tue, 2009-07-07 at 09:55 -0400, Bob Bruninga wrote:
Sorry, one can also claim that every transmission is one-way because only under full duplex conditions is a system truely two-way. There are all kinds of applications in amateur radio where one side of the link uses different hardware than the other return side, and once can make all kinds of arguments as to how much delay is involved between the transmission and the receiption.. 3 seconds? 10 seconds, a minute? 10 minutes? A day? When you make a call to a party TO ESTABLISH commmunications it is one way, until the person gets his system going and responds.
A good example of this is the amateur satellites. You might fire an email off to someone - "I heard you but you couldn't hear me" after the pass. I think you'd have a hard time describing that as anything other than a one-way radio communication, but I don't see where that would become illegal.
Gordon 2M0YEQ
participants (7)
-
Ben Jackson -
Bob Bruninga -
Dave -
Gordon JC Pearce -
Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF -
Roger Kolakowski -
Tony Langdon