AMSAT-NA, another perspective
I have been a member on/off since 2012. I have never been removed from this AMSAT mailing list, but have not always been able to log into the AMSAT.org web site. In spite of this, I have renewed my membership, typically at Hamvention (until this year, but did so online), and made extra purchases to support the work of AMSAT.
I definitely echo the message of Hans BX2ABT. Not everyone is bad, but unfortunately too many are not good either.
When reading over each point of view of this ongoing dispute, it is not very clear what started this dispute. In a statement in response to allegations of financial mismanagement, Clayton wrote:
*AMSAT's corporate records give a full accounting of all expendituresand are provided to its Directors upon request, in compliance with ourgoverning documents and law of the District of Columbia (D.C.) Ouroffice remains closed due to COVID-19, where those documents reside.Furthermore, AMSAT complies with IRS rules for 501(c)(3) disclosure ofpublic financial documents, such as the Form 990 available on theAMSAT website *
The above statement is either wholly true, or gray, because making a statement like this which is completely false would be illegal.
Michelle, you have claimed that you (and Patrick) were denied access to financial transaction records upon your written request. Can we simply focus on *what* specifically started this whole thing?
Russ Ramirez K0WFS
We were denied access to corporate records and communications from the first day of our terms.
We commissioned a formal legal demand letter and sent it to AMSAT's secretly hired law firm.
Two days later, Joe Spier resigned.
Clayton Coleman was (duly) elected in a short emergency meeting.
Clayton Coleman restored access to communications, and some additional records were available. He called the first (and only) regular board meeting of the year, and we heard some reports, made some motions, and kicked off some plans. This was nearly 5 months into our term.
The biggest step forward at this meeting was Clayton agreed to end the business relationship with the secretly hired law firm. That spigot was off.
Things actually looked like they were improving.
No followup since then. No regular meetings since then. No resolution on who actually signed the checks. Could we recover the money?
When the rest of the board finally angrily revealed they really did know all about the secretly hired law firm all along, and it was ok with them that the lawyers were used specifically to make our lives harder, and when some of them decided to run for another term, we decided to speak up. That's all we can do.
If members want another year of zero board meetings because the incumbents really hate Patrick and Michelle asking inconvenient questions about unauthorized expenses, then members will return the same people to the board.
Every month, Patrick and I will still be going through the financials carefully and asking questions. That's an essential part of the job.
If members want a functional board that publishes minutes and can show progress, collaboration, and decision-making, then please vote for people that will help do that: Robert McGwier, Howie DeFelice, and Jeff Johns.
Thank you for the opportunity to answer.
-Michelle W5NYV
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 10:06 AM Russ Ramirez via AMSAT-BB < [email protected]> wrote:
I have been a member on/off since 2012. I have never been removed from this AMSAT mailing list, but have not always been able to log into the AMSAT.org web site. In spite of this, I have renewed my membership, typically at Hamvention (until this year, but did so online), and made extra purchases to support the work of AMSAT.
I definitely echo the message of Hans BX2ABT. Not everyone is bad, but unfortunately too many are not good either.
When reading over each point of view of this ongoing dispute, it is not very clear what started this dispute. In a statement in response to allegations of financial mismanagement, Clayton wrote:
*AMSAT's corporate records give a full accounting of all expendituresand are provided to its Directors upon request, in compliance with ourgoverning documents and law of the District of Columbia (D.C.) Ouroffice remains closed due to COVID-19, where those documents reside.Furthermore, AMSAT complies with IRS rules for 501(c)(3) disclosure ofpublic financial documents, such as the Form 990 available on theAMSAT website *
The above statement is either wholly true, or gray, because making a statement like this which is completely false would be illegal.
Michelle, you have claimed that you (and Patrick) were denied access to financial transaction records upon your written request. Can we simply focus on *what* specifically started this whole thing?
Russ Ramirez K0WFS _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
AMSAT Members:
We’re going around in circles, getting nowhere fast. No resolution in sight; only repetition, irritation, and turning away new and renewing members. Not constructive.
Much as these subjects need to be and should be discussed, may I suggest taking this thread offline?
I’m willing to facilitate an offline discussion.
73, art….. W4ART Arlington VA LM-113
To thrive in life, you need three bones: a wish bone, a back bone, and a funny bone. - Reba McEntire
I believe that all 501(c)(3) orgs must hold at least one BOD meeting per year or it is in violation of the incorporation rules and the org will risk losing their tax exempt status. 3 Annual Requirements Every Nonprofit Should Know
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| | | | 3 Annual Requirements Every Nonprofit Should Know
Congratulations, you’ve received 501(c)(3) status, so now what!? PAPERWORK AND MEETINGS! And also working for th... |
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--- Ciao baby, catch you on the flip side 73 de W3AB/GEO
You can say "over", you can say "out", you just can't say "over and out".
I wonder why Joe Spier didn't sign AMSAT's statement as a Past President and the one who authorized some of those legal expenses...
Fernando Ramírez KF7R
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 1:31 PM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB < [email protected]> wrote:
We were denied access to corporate records and communications from the first day of our terms.
We commissioned a formal legal demand letter and sent it to AMSAT's secretly hired law firm.
Two days later, Joe Spier resigned.
Clayton Coleman was (duly) elected in a short emergency meeting.
Clayton Coleman restored access to communications, and some additional records were available. He called the first (and only) regular board meeting of the year, and we heard some reports, made some motions, and kicked off some plans. This was nearly 5 months into our term.
The biggest step forward at this meeting was Clayton agreed to end the business relationship with the secretly hired law firm. That spigot was off.
Things actually looked like they were improving.
No followup since then. No regular meetings since then. No resolution on who actually signed the checks. Could we recover the money?
When the rest of the board finally angrily revealed they really did know all about the secretly hired law firm all along, and it was ok with them that the lawyers were used specifically to make our lives harder, and when some of them decided to run for another term, we decided to speak up. That's all we can do.
If members want another year of zero board meetings because the incumbents really hate Patrick and Michelle asking inconvenient questions about unauthorized expenses, then members will return the same people to the board.
Every month, Patrick and I will still be going through the financials carefully and asking questions. That's an essential part of the job.
If members want a functional board that publishes minutes and can show progress, collaboration, and decision-making, then please vote for people that will help do that: Robert McGwier, Howie DeFelice, and Jeff Johns.
Thank you for the opportunity to answer.
-Michelle W5NYV
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 10:06 AM Russ Ramirez via AMSAT-BB < [email protected]> wrote:
I have been a member on/off since 2012. I have never been removed from
this
AMSAT mailing list, but have not always been able to log into the
AMSAT.org
web site. In spite of this, I have renewed my membership, typically at Hamvention (until this year, but did so online), and made extra purchases to support the work of AMSAT.
I definitely echo the message of Hans BX2ABT. Not everyone is bad, but unfortunately too many are not good either.
When reading over each point of view of this ongoing dispute, it is not very clear what started this dispute. In a statement in response to allegations of financial mismanagement, Clayton wrote:
*AMSAT's corporate records give a full accounting of all expendituresand are provided to its Directors upon request, in compliance with
ourgoverning
documents and law of the District of Columbia (D.C.) Ouroffice remains closed due to COVID-19, where those documents reside.Furthermore, AMSAT complies with IRS rules for 501(c)(3) disclosure ofpublic financial documents, such as the Form 990 available on theAMSAT website *
The above statement is either wholly true, or gray, because making a statement like this which is completely false would be illegal.
Michelle, you have claimed that you (and Patrick) were denied access to financial transaction records upon your written request. Can we simply focus on *what* specifically started this whole thing?
Russ Ramirez K0WFS _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
From what I understand, what started this was just different opinions
about ways of doing things between Patrick and officers/directors, and in different ways, between Michelle and officers/directors. They each have very different contributions to AMSAT, and that they ran into similar issues from those different avenues gives more credence to their claims.
With Patrick it was mostly about issues with how AO-92 L-band operations were run. With Michelle there seems to have been tensions going back further, between her and Jerry most recently it seems. She has dealt with sexism in this community. I saw it first hand when she gave the AMSAT/TAPR keynote at Hamvention a few years ago. I talk about that here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ9Rch9MjjM
BTW, IMO I felt there was never a threat she would sue AMSAT over discrimination. From talking to Michelle, she has dealt with sexism a lot in her career and much worse than what she reported publicly about AMSAT. I think she is more interested in doing things and the sexism was just one of the impediments she experienced related to getting things done. With the money she has raised recently for AMSAT I think she is trying to show that, and I think she succeeded. She has a lot of free time and abilities and has and is offering a lot to the community.
AMSAT didn't have to hire a lawyer to get an anti-discrimination policy. There are dozens of open source projects, sponsored by large corporations, that have policies they could have adapted. It is also interesting that they adopted a policy after the accusations, and then decided hers didn't meet the definition of discrimination in the adopted policy. Not that that can't be done ethically, there is just a huge pitfall in adopting a policy after accusations have been made.
I am not sure about the accusations she made, but does anyone else remember what I referred to in my video? Could AMSAT publicly acknowledge that and say it is not acceptable?
With Patrick, the idea that he harassed Drew over issues with AO-92 L-band does not seem like a reasonable description of what I know about that situation.
As I said in the video above Drew behaved hypocritically and when Patrick pointed that out I thought it was courageous. There were also issues with Drew blocking Patrick on Twitter. That info is on Patrick's website.
IMO the use of words like attack to describe accusations is over the top. It was criticism. And what threats were levied? That he would run for a directors seat? Attack and threat are strong words and some definitions use violence to describe them.
I don't think Drew or others handled valid criticism well. The blocking of access to the email archives and then the opening due to the demand letter show to me that their judgement in blocking that was wrong, and that they actually haven't been welcoming to the new directors. Clayton also said in his own letter that the only power they have is to vote during meetings... and they only had one meeting in a year!
The last thing I will leave you with is a quote from a blogger I follow that outlines how the ways we evolved make it exceptionally hard for anyone to deal with situations like this well:
"As some evolutionary psychologists argue, our moral instincts didn’t evolve to help us to discern right from wrong, but to help us convince other humans that we’d make good additions to their clan—that we hate their enemies, share their affinities, and shake our heads at the same behaviors.
That’s why having your beliefs affirmed by others feels so good, even when the belief is devoid of moral significance: that the Packers are better than the Vikings, or that your favorite movie doesn’t deserve its bad reviews.
Enjoying this feeling doesn’t even require the belief to be true, which explains why people are generally uninterested in contradictory evidence, and why solidarity groups form around claims that the earth is flat, that vaccines cause autism, and that the real Paul McCartney died in a 1966 car crash.
Because existing beliefs feel so much better than ideas we don’t yet believe, we all drift naturally toward the comforts of the echo chamber."
- David Cain
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 1:06 PM Russ Ramirez via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:
I have been a member on/off since 2012. I have never been removed from this AMSAT mailing list, but have not always been able to log into the AMSAT.org web site. In spite of this, I have renewed my membership, typically at Hamvention (until this year, but did so online), and made extra purchases to support the work of AMSAT.
I definitely echo the message of Hans BX2ABT. Not everyone is bad, but unfortunately too many are not good either.
When reading over each point of view of this ongoing dispute, it is not very clear what started this dispute. In a statement in response to allegations of financial mismanagement, Clayton wrote:
*AMSAT's corporate records give a full accounting of all expendituresand are provided to its Directors upon request, in compliance with ourgoverning documents and law of the District of Columbia (D.C.) Ouroffice remains closed due to COVID-19, where those documents reside.Furthermore, AMSAT complies with IRS rules for 501(c)(3) disclosure ofpublic financial documents, such as the Form 990 available on theAMSAT website *
The above statement is either wholly true, or gray, because making a statement like this which is completely false would be illegal.
Michelle, you have claimed that you (and Patrick) were denied access to financial transaction records upon your written request. Can we simply focus on *what* specifically started this whole thing?
Russ Ramirez K0WFS _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I forgot to mention, I was on the BoD of a local online radio station (we had intentions of being an LPFM, but that didn't work out). We had quarterly meetings, and the org was extremely small. So one meeting a year for an org as large as AMSAT seems very odd to me.
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 2:21 PM John Brier [email protected] wrote:
From what I understand, what started this was just different opinions about ways of doing things between Patrick and officers/directors, and in different ways, between Michelle and officers/directors. They each have very different contributions to AMSAT, and that they ran into similar issues from those different avenues gives more credence to their claims.
With Patrick it was mostly about issues with how AO-92 L-band operations were run. With Michelle there seems to have been tensions going back further, between her and Jerry most recently it seems. She has dealt with sexism in this community. I saw it first hand when she gave the AMSAT/TAPR keynote at Hamvention a few years ago. I talk about that here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ9Rch9MjjM
BTW, IMO I felt there was never a threat she would sue AMSAT over discrimination. From talking to Michelle, she has dealt with sexism a lot in her career and much worse than what she reported publicly about AMSAT. I think she is more interested in doing things and the sexism was just one of the impediments she experienced related to getting things done. With the money she has raised recently for AMSAT I think she is trying to show that, and I think she succeeded. She has a lot of free time and abilities and has and is offering a lot to the community.
AMSAT didn't have to hire a lawyer to get an anti-discrimination policy. There are dozens of open source projects, sponsored by large corporations, that have policies they could have adapted. It is also interesting that they adopted a policy after the accusations, and then decided hers didn't meet the definition of discrimination in the adopted policy. Not that that can't be done ethically, there is just a huge pitfall in adopting a policy after accusations have been made.
I am not sure about the accusations she made, but does anyone else remember what I referred to in my video? Could AMSAT publicly acknowledge that and say it is not acceptable?
With Patrick, the idea that he harassed Drew over issues with AO-92 L-band does not seem like a reasonable description of what I know about that situation.
As I said in the video above Drew behaved hypocritically and when Patrick pointed that out I thought it was courageous. There were also issues with Drew blocking Patrick on Twitter. That info is on Patrick's website.
IMO the use of words like attack to describe accusations is over the top. It was criticism. And what threats were levied? That he would run for a directors seat? Attack and threat are strong words and some definitions use violence to describe them.
I don't think Drew or others handled valid criticism well. The blocking of access to the email archives and then the opening due to the demand letter show to me that their judgement in blocking that was wrong, and that they actually haven't been welcoming to the new directors. Clayton also said in his own letter that the only power they have is to vote during meetings... and they only had one meeting in a year!
The last thing I will leave you with is a quote from a blogger I follow that outlines how the ways we evolved make it exceptionally hard for anyone to deal with situations like this well:
"As some evolutionary psychologists argue, our moral instincts didn’t evolve to help us to discern right from wrong, but to help us convince other humans that we’d make good additions to their clan—that we hate their enemies, share their affinities, and shake our heads at the same behaviors.
That’s why having your beliefs affirmed by others feels so good, even when the belief is devoid of moral significance: that the Packers are better than the Vikings, or that your favorite movie doesn’t deserve its bad reviews.
Enjoying this feeling doesn’t even require the belief to be true, which explains why people are generally uninterested in contradictory evidence, and why solidarity groups form around claims that the earth is flat, that vaccines cause autism, and that the real Paul McCartney died in a 1966 car crash.
Because existing beliefs feel so much better than ideas we don’t yet believe, we all drift naturally toward the comforts of the echo chamber."
- David Cain
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 1:06 PM Russ Ramirez via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:
I have been a member on/off since 2012. I have never been removed from this AMSAT mailing list, but have not always been able to log into the AMSAT.org web site. In spite of this, I have renewed my membership, typically at Hamvention (until this year, but did so online), and made extra purchases to support the work of AMSAT.
I definitely echo the message of Hans BX2ABT. Not everyone is bad, but unfortunately too many are not good either.
When reading over each point of view of this ongoing dispute, it is not very clear what started this dispute. In a statement in response to allegations of financial mismanagement, Clayton wrote:
*AMSAT's corporate records give a full accounting of all expendituresand are provided to its Directors upon request, in compliance with ourgoverning documents and law of the District of Columbia (D.C.) Ouroffice remains closed due to COVID-19, where those documents reside.Furthermore, AMSAT complies with IRS rules for 501(c)(3) disclosure ofpublic financial documents, such as the Form 990 available on theAMSAT website *
The above statement is either wholly true, or gray, because making a statement like this which is completely false would be illegal.
Michelle, you have claimed that you (and Patrick) were denied access to financial transaction records upon your written request. Can we simply focus on *what* specifically started this whole thing?
Russ Ramirez K0WFS _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
As it happens, I am already familiar with your YT channel and referenced video, good stuff - thanks for the reply John.
Also want to give Peter, W2PP, a shout for spending so much time reading through all the documentation there is out there, bravo for taking the time to do that.
The two observations I have made is that 1) there seems to be right and wrong on both sides, and that 2) the entire BoD should resign, opening up the positions to anyone who's willing to put forth details on what they plan to contribute to AMSAT if elected, and let the rest of us decide from there based (mostly) on not knowing any of the players personally. If that means delaying the next election cycle, then so be it. I agree with the opinion that others shared that AMSAT-NA is/was falling behind the other global organizations; simply based on who's putting Sats into orbit. Maybe an attempt has been made to get support from the likes of Elon Musk or similar, but if there's not even been an attempt made to do something along these lines, that would be unfortunate. Seems like putting Sats into space is about more than ham radio, or pure commercial interests.
Russ K0WFS
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 1:33 PM John Brier [email protected] wrote:
I forgot to mention, I was on the BoD of a local online radio station (we had intentions of being an LPFM, but that didn't work out). We had quarterly meetings, and the org was extremely small. So one meeting a year for an org as large as AMSAT seems very odd to me.
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 2:21 PM John Brier [email protected] wrote:
From what I understand, what started this was just different opinions about ways of doing things between Patrick and officers/directors, and in different ways, between Michelle and officers/directors. They each have very different contributions to AMSAT, and that they ran into similar issues from those different avenues gives more credence to their claims.
With Patrick it was mostly about issues with how AO-92 L-band operations were run. With Michelle there seems to have been tensions going back further, between her and Jerry most recently it seems. She has dealt with sexism in this community. I saw it first hand when she gave the AMSAT/TAPR keynote at Hamvention a few years ago. I talk about that here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ9Rch9MjjM
BTW, IMO I felt there was never a threat she would sue AMSAT over discrimination. From talking to Michelle, she has dealt with sexism a lot in her career and much worse than what she reported publicly about AMSAT. I think she is more interested in doing things and the sexism was just one of the impediments she experienced related to getting things done. With the money she has raised recently for AMSAT I think she is trying to show that, and I think she succeeded. She has a lot of free time and abilities and has and is offering a lot to the community.
AMSAT didn't have to hire a lawyer to get an anti-discrimination policy. There are dozens of open source projects, sponsored by large corporations, that have policies they could have adapted. It is also interesting that they adopted a policy after the accusations, and then decided hers didn't meet the definition of discrimination in the adopted policy. Not that that can't be done ethically, there is just a huge pitfall in adopting a policy after accusations have been made.
I am not sure about the accusations she made, but does anyone else remember what I referred to in my video? Could AMSAT publicly acknowledge that and say it is not acceptable?
With Patrick, the idea that he harassed Drew over issues with AO-92 L-band does not seem like a reasonable description of what I know about that situation.
As I said in the video above Drew behaved hypocritically and when Patrick pointed that out I thought it was courageous. There were also issues with Drew blocking Patrick on Twitter. That info is on Patrick's website.
IMO the use of words like attack to describe accusations is over the top. It was criticism. And what threats were levied? That he would run for a directors seat? Attack and threat are strong words and some definitions use violence to describe them.
I don't think Drew or others handled valid criticism well. The blocking of access to the email archives and then the opening due to the demand letter show to me that their judgement in blocking that was wrong, and that they actually haven't been welcoming to the new directors. Clayton also said in his own letter that the only power they have is to vote during meetings... and they only had one meeting in a year!
The last thing I will leave you with is a quote from a blogger I follow that outlines how the ways we evolved make it exceptionally hard for anyone to deal with situations like this well:
"As some evolutionary psychologists argue, our moral instincts didn’t evolve to help us to discern right from wrong, but to help us convince other humans that we’d make good additions to their clan—that we hate their enemies, share their affinities, and shake our heads at the same behaviors.
That’s why having your beliefs affirmed by others feels so good, even when the belief is devoid of moral significance: that the Packers are better than the Vikings, or that your favorite movie doesn’t deserve its bad reviews.
Enjoying this feeling doesn’t even require the belief to be true, which explains why people are generally uninterested in contradictory evidence, and why solidarity groups form around claims that the earth is flat, that vaccines cause autism, and that the real Paul McCartney died in a 1966 car crash.
Because existing beliefs feel so much better than ideas we don’t yet believe, we all drift naturally toward the comforts of the echo chamber."
- David Cain
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 1:06 PM Russ Ramirez via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:
I have been a member on/off since 2012. I have never been removed from
this
AMSAT mailing list, but have not always been able to log into the
AMSAT.org
web site. In spite of this, I have renewed my membership, typically at Hamvention (until this year, but did so online), and made extra
purchases
to support the work of AMSAT.
I definitely echo the message of Hans BX2ABT. Not everyone is bad, but unfortunately too many are not good either.
When reading over each point of view of this ongoing dispute, it is not very clear what started this dispute. In a statement in response to allegations of financial mismanagement, Clayton wrote:
*AMSAT's corporate records give a full accounting of all
expendituresand
are provided to its Directors upon request, in compliance with
ourgoverning
documents and law of the District of Columbia (D.C.) Ouroffice remains closed due to COVID-19, where those documents reside.Furthermore, AMSAT complies with IRS rules for 501(c)(3) disclosure ofpublic financial documents, such as the Form 990 available on theAMSAT website *
The above statement is either wholly true, or gray, because making a statement like this which is completely false would be illegal.
Michelle, you have claimed that you (and Patrick) were denied access to financial transaction records upon your written request. Can we simply focus on *what* specifically started this whole thing?
Russ Ramirez K0WFS _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (6)
-
Arthur Feller -
Fernando Ramirez -
GEO Badger -
John Brier -
Michelle Thompson -
Russ Ramirez