Request for AMSAT Engineering and Operations
I respectfully ask that AMSAT-NA Engineering and/or Operations publish a copy of the IOC (In Orbit Checklist), with any sensitive information redacted. I will also ask that the reasons for the redaction be provided. For example: "This sentence redacted as it relates to proprietary launch provider information." Or "This paragraph redacted as it relates to trade secret uplink transmission protocols."
I feel this information can greatly enhance the collective knowledge of AMSAT-NA by getting more eyes on the procedure, perhaps even leading to some hindsight that could lead to future design changes/improvements, etc.
--Roy K3RLD
Speaking only for myself ...
Do you have an engineering background? If so, have you submitted your resume to AMSAT for consideration to be involved?
Clint Bradford K6LCS
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 25, 2021, at 13:44, Roy Dean royldean@gmail.com wrote:
I respectfully ask that AMSAT-NA Engineering and/or Operations publish a copy of the IOC (In Orbit Checklist), with any sensitive information redacted. I will also ask that the reasons for the redaction be provided. For example: "This sentence redacted as it relates to proprietary launch provider information." Or "This paragraph redacted as it relates to trade secret uplink transmission protocols."
I feel this information can greatly enhance the collective knowledge of AMSAT-NA by getting more eyes on the procedure, perhaps even leading to some hindsight that could lead to future design changes/improvements, etc.
--Roy K3RLD
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
Clint Bradford posted:
Speaking only for myself ... Do you have an engineering background? If so, have you submitted your resume to AMSAT for consideration to be involved? Clint Bradford K6LCS
I wasn't going to respond to this, but I'm going to. This is exactly the kind of elitist snobbery that turns people off and keeps them from even wanting to volunteer.
I have been involved with radio and electronics for 54 years without an engineering degree. When I was in college I tutored my EE program girlfriend on circuit theory that I'd learned studying for my Novice exam when I was 10 years old! I was able to make the jump from social sciences to computers because of my ham background and spent 35 years in IT. I learned control systems because I helped put on-line a large plant producing IC chemicals and ran it as its Sysadmin with a 99.9% uptime. During my career I added embedded OS's, networking, etc. All without an engineering degree.
One thing I have never understood about AMSAT is why, in the absence of any legal requirements such as NDAs or ITAR restrictions, we seem to keep our materials so close to the vest. And if those are the reasons why not state so plainly, along with the conditions that must be met before the materials can be released?
Are we worried about somebody stealing AMSAT work for commercial purposes? As hams we're supposed to help advance the state of the art in electronics, and I don't think that means only electronics used by us.
Whatever the reasons why we restrict access to engineering data, remarks like the one from K6LCS do not help attract people.
Dave Reinhart, W4DSR (ex-WA6ILT)
On 1/26/21 11:17 AM, David Reinhart wrote:
I have been involved with radio and electronics for 54 years without an engineering degree.
David,
Notice that Clint says "engineering background", not "degree". Self-taught engineers, such as yourself, definitely have things to contribute to the technical aspects of satellite design. You definitely would not want to drop someone with zero background into these areas, nor would it be good to have a volunteer who has no intent of learning or contributing.
My personal experience is that the lack of technical skills is usually _not_ the reason volunteers drop out of projects, it's the time required to volunteer. So, don't be shy! If you have the time and some background in the areas needed, sign up here:
https://www.amsat.org/volunteer-for-amsat/
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
Zach,
As someone who lost out on more than one job in his career because I don't have EE or CS behind my BS, I know exactly what the phrase "engineering background" means and it is one I always avoided in my own hiring. Do you really think somebody would even ask for that kind of information if there wasn't any chance of him being able to understand any of it? It'd be like a mouse asking how to make cheese.
Dave Reinhart, W4DSR
Dave,
I tend to agree with your views.
About a year ago I requested from a VIP in AMSAT-NL (he will recognize himself) some info about the FOX series design to work on the 3B8 first satellite MIR-SAT1 (a HAM one) and the reply I got was that everything was confidential due to NDAs/US laws, etc..., no even a hint provided. Just excuses and the end result is that I had to reinvent the wheel this side. Anyway thats life, just non-transparent this is why I am now also a member of AMSAT-DL with which communication is much easier and fully transparent and their outstanding results such as QO-100 and in the past the best satellite we got up there (hope that no-one will deny this). It is just that they have a better vision and transparency than others.
Fully agree also about open source as it promotes knowledge for all and also contributions from all thus improving technology as no-one as the monopoly on knowledge and ideas.
My greatest fear, as a member of AMSAT-NA, is that we end up soon well behind of other HAM institutions and I take this opportunity to congratulate our Chinese fellows to have so many projects in the pipeline compared with others, also AMSAT_DL for their vision about Lunar and MARS projects, they are both taking the lead now.
I may understand that my opinions above may create some debate/controversy but it is just an honest feedback.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Jan 26, 2021, at 9:17 PM, David Reinhart wa6ilt@cox.net wrote:
Clint Bradford posted:
Speaking only for myself ... Do you have an engineering background? If so, have you submitted your resume to AMSAT for consideration to be involved? Clint Bradford K6LCS
I wasn't going to respond to this, but I'm going to. This is exactly the kind of elitist snobbery that turns people off and keeps them from even wanting to volunteer.
I have been involved with radio and electronics for 54 years without an engineering degree. When I was in college I tutored my EE program girlfriend on circuit theory that I'd learned studying for my Novice exam when I was 10 years old! I was able to make the jump from social sciences to computers because of my ham background and spent 35 years in IT. I learned control systems because I helped put on-line a large plant producing IC chemicals and ran it as its Sysadmin with a 99.9% uptime. During my career I added embedded OS's, networking, etc. All without an engineering degree.
One thing I have never understood about AMSAT is why, in the absence of any legal requirements such as NDAs or ITAR restrictions, we seem to keep our materials so close to the vest. And if those are the reasons why not state so plainly, along with the conditions that must be met before the materials can be released?
Are we worried about somebody stealing AMSAT work for commercial purposes? As hams we're supposed to help advance the state of the art in electronics, and I don't think that means only electronics used by us.
Whatever the reasons why we restrict access to engineering data, remarks like the one from K6LCS do not help attract people.
Dave Reinhart, W4DSR (ex-WA6ILT)
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
On 1/26/21 12:11 PM, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
outstanding results such as QO-100
Small notes, as I have to get back the paying job in a few minutes:
1) This satellite is not of amateur design. According to AMSAT-DL's own publications, it is a Mitsubishi Electric Melco DS-2000.
2) If my memory is correct, one or more RF hardware paths were modified by Mitsubishi, to allow the satellite to operate in amateur allocations. This satellite does not carry amateur-designed hardware. (If I'm wrong, Peter, please correct me.)
3) This satellite was possible due to some superb negotiation by the AMSAT groups on the other side of the pond with an oil-rich country that just happened to be going their way. Comparing it to Fox, or even AO-40, is like comparing a go-kart you built to a Ferrari a rich person gave you.
--- Zach N0ZGO
I must agree with David.
David Reinhart wrote:
Clint Bradford posted:
Speaking only for myself ... Do you have an engineering background? If so, have you submitted your resume to AMSAT for consideration to be involved? Clint Bradford K6LCS
I wasn't going to respond to this, but I'm going to. This is exactly the kind of elitist snobbery that turns people off and keeps them from even wanting to volunteer.
I have been involved with radio and electronics for 54 years without an engineering degree. When I was in college I tutored my EE program girlfriend on circuit theory that I'd learned studying for my Novice exam when I was 10 years old! I was able to make the jump from social sciences to computers because of my ham background and spent 35 years in IT. I learned control systems because I helped put on-line a large plant producing IC chemicals and ran it as its Sysadmin with a 99.9% uptime. During my career I added embedded OS's, networking, etc. All without an engineering degree.
One thing I have never understood about AMSAT is why, in the absence of any legal requirements such as NDAs or ITAR restrictions, we seem to keep our materials so close to the vest. And if those are the reasons why not state so plainly, along with the conditions that must be met before the materials can be released?
Are we worried about somebody stealing AMSAT work for commercial purposes? As hams we're supposed to help advance the state of the art in electronics, and I don't think that means only electronics used by us.
Whatever the reasons why we restrict access to engineering data, remarks like the one from K6LCS do not help attract people.
Dave Reinhart, W4DSR (ex-WA6ILT)
Elitist snobbery...... really,,,,, !? It doesn't look like the response was "only particle physics graduates from cornell need apply". Geeeeeeez!
Instead of slamming the BB about it... why didn't you just take all your thoughts from paragraph 3 above, craft it into a reasonable introduction to the AMSAT team and send it off?
Why create this unnecessary drama on the BB?
Joseph Armbruster KJ4JIO
On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 12:18 PM David Reinhart wa6ilt@cox.net wrote:
Clint Bradford posted:
Speaking only for myself ... Do you have an engineering background? If so, have you submitted your resume to AMSAT for consideration to be involved? Clint Bradford K6LCS
I wasn't going to respond to this, but I'm going to. This is exactly the kind of elitist snobbery that turns people off and keeps them from even wanting to volunteer.
I have been involved with radio and electronics for 54 years without an engineering degree. When I was in college I tutored my EE program girlfriend on circuit theory that I'd learned studying for my Novice exam when I was 10 years old! I was able to make the jump from social sciences to computers because of my ham background and spent 35 years in IT. I learned control systems because I helped put on-line a large plant producing IC chemicals and ran it as its Sysadmin with a 99.9% uptime. During my career I added embedded OS's, networking, etc. All without an engineering degree.
One thing I have never understood about AMSAT is why, in the absence of any legal requirements such as NDAs or ITAR restrictions, we seem to keep our materials so close to the vest. And if those are the reasons why not state so plainly, along with the conditions that must be met before the materials can be released?
Are we worried about somebody stealing AMSAT work for commercial purposes? As hams we're supposed to help advance the state of the art in electronics, and I don't think that means only electronics used by us.
Whatever the reasons why we restrict access to engineering data, remarks like the one from K6LCS do not help attract people.
Dave Reinhart, W4DSR (ex-WA6ILT)
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
On 1/25/21 3:43 PM, Roy Dean wrote:
I respectfully ask that AMSAT-NA Engineering and/or Operations publish a copy of the IOC (In Orbit Checklist), with any sensitive information redacted. I will also ask that the reasons for the redaction be provided. For example: "This sentence redacted as it relates to proprietary launch provider information." Or "This paragraph redacted as it relates to trade secret uplink transmission protocols."
I feel this information can greatly enhance the collective knowledge of AMSAT-NA by getting more eyes on the procedure, perhaps even leading to some hindsight that could lead to future design changes/improvements, etc.
Hello Roy,
I doubt this will happen, and here's why: Monday-morning quarterbacking isn't productive.
You'll have a small window on the project without any background information, and you'll load down volunteers with questions and speculation while they're trying to use their considerable knowledge of the project to recover the bird. Accusations will fly, and unrealistic or nigh-impossible solutions will be fielded. I can think of at least one 2020 board candidate who has already started down this war path.
You know the downlink frequency. The best thing you can do is listen for any peep out of it, and forward that data on, as requested, to AMSAT.
If you think you have something to contribute to the future missions, such as GOLF, please _volunteer_ and put in the time learning the system. You'll likely not be granted any special access to prior missions, but those volunteers who span missions will carry forward what worked and what didn't.
Making mistakes is how we learn, and failures happen even with the largest of budgets. As a reminder, here's a collection of SpaceX learning experiences, and they have a budget many orders of magnitude greater than AMSAT's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvim4rsNHkQ
You've got to have a sense of humor to be an engineer.
(I am not speaking in any official capacity for AMSAT, nor am I empowered to do so on any occasion.)
--- Zach N0ZGO
Zach,
Interesting that you used SpaceX's failed landing clips. This is exactly what we (likely the entire amateur satellite community) are hoping to learn, what caused each of the failures. Sure, SpaceX didn't share HOW they learned what the failures were, but then they are a for-profit company with competitors. Who are AMSAT's competitors? If AMSAT is truly promoting space education (as eluded to in the mission and vision statements), why aren't these documents public? How can we help others (or ourselves) launch successful satellites if we keep all of our procedures secret?
And yes, I AM thinking about volunteering, but I have no clue if my skills are of value. So I'm hoping to see the extent of the engineering documentation in hopes of learning if I can add anything.
--Roy K3RLD
Hello,
I agree that transparency is the best policy. Why not just make the document available to the membership? I work in accelerator based particle physics, where systems can and do fail on a regular basis. When it happens, it is a matter of course for the experts to offer regular reports on the steps being taken to resolve the problem.
Sincerely, Dan K2QM AMSAT Member
From: Roy Dean royldean@gmail.com Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 at 8:55 AM To: "amsat-bb@amsat.org" amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Request for AMSAT Engineering and Operations
Zach,
Interesting that you used SpaceX's failed landing clips. This is exactly what we (likely the entire amateur satellite community) are hoping to learn, what caused each of the failures. Sure, SpaceX didn't share HOW they learned what the failures were, but then they are a for-profit company with competitors. Who are AMSAT's competitors? If AMSAT is truly promoting space education (as eluded to in the mission and vision statements), why aren't these documents public? How can we help others (or ourselves) launch successful satellites if we keep all of our procedures secret?
And yes, I AM thinking about volunteering, but I have no clue if my skills are of value. So I'm hoping to see the extent of the engineering documentation in hopes of learning if I can add anything.
--Roy K3RLD
-----------------------------------------------------------
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
Hi Daniel:But they are getting paid to do all that extra work.Kent WA5VJB On Tuesday, January 26, 2021, 08:09:36 AM CST, Daniel R. Marlow marlow@princeton.edu wrote:
Hello,
I agree that transparency is the best policy. Why not just make the document available to the membership? I work in accelerator based particle physics, where systems can and do fail on a regular basis. When it happens, it is a matter of course for the experts to offer regular reports on the steps being taken to resolve the problem.
Sincerely,
Dan K2QM
AMSAT Member
From: Roy Dean royldean@gmail.com Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 at 8:55 AM To: "amsat-bb@amsat.org" amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Request for AMSAT Engineering and Operations
Zach,
Interesting that you used SpaceX's failed landing clips. This is exactly what we (likely the entire amateur satellite community) are hoping to learn, what caused each of the failures. Sure, SpaceX didn't share HOW they learned what the failures were, but then they are a for-profit company with competitors. Who are AMSAT's competitors? If AMSAT is truly promoting space education (as eluded to in the mission and vision statements), why aren't these documents public? How can we help others (or ourselves) launch successful satellites if we keep all of our procedures secret?
And yes, I AM thinking about volunteering, but I have no clue if my skills are of value. So I'm hoping to see the extent of the engineering documentation in hopes of learning if I can add anything.
--Roy
K3RLD
-----------------------------------------------------------
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
View archives of this mailing list at
https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org
To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org
Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
Good point. I guess that’s the difference between professionals and amateurs. –DM
From: KENT BRITAIN wa5vjb@flash.net Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 at 9:31 AM To: Roy Dean royldean@gmail.com, "amsat-bb@amsat.org" amsat-bb@amsat.org, "Daniel R. Marlow" marlow@princeton.edu Subject: Re: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Request for AMSAT Engineering and Operations
Hi Daniel: But they are getting paid to do all that extra work. Kent WA5VJB
On Tuesday, January 26, 2021, 08:09:36 AM CST, Daniel R. Marlow marlow@princeton.edu wrote:
Hello,
I agree that transparency is the best policy. Why not just make the document available to the membership? I work in accelerator based particle physics, where systems can and do fail on a regular basis. When it happens, it is a matter of course for the experts to offer regular reports on the steps being taken to resolve the problem.
Sincerely,
Dan K2QM
AMSAT Member
From: Roy Dean royldean@gmail.com Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 at 8:55 AM To: "amsat-bb@amsat.org" amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Request for AMSAT Engineering and Operations
Zach,
Interesting that you used SpaceX's failed landing clips. This is exactly what we (likely the entire amateur satellite community) are hoping to learn, what caused each of the failures. Sure, SpaceX didn't share HOW they learned what the failures were, but then they are a for-profit company with competitors. Who are AMSAT's competitors? If AMSAT is truly promoting space education (as eluded to in the mission and vision statements), why aren't these documents public? How can we help others (or ourselves) launch successful satellites if we keep all of our procedures secret?
And yes, I AM thinking about volunteering, but I have no clue if my skills are of value. So I'm hoping to see the extent of the engineering documentation in hopes of learning if I can add anything.
--Roy
K3RLD
-----------------------------------------------------------
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
View archives of this mailing list at
https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org
To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org
Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
Hi Ray I currently have 6 antenna systems in orbit and working on 4 more at the moment.Currently on AMSAT, ESA, and Funcube design teams. The biggest negative I see is the hours and hours and hours of paperwork necessary to bring the documentation to the level you would like to see. I only have to document enough for an antenna guy to understand. Kent WA5VJB/G8EMY
On Tuesday, January 26, 2021, 07:55:11 AM CST, Roy Dean royldean@gmail.com wrote:
Zach,
Interesting that you used SpaceX's failed landing clips. This is exactly what we (likely the entire amateur satellite community) are hoping to learn, what caused each of the failures. Sure, SpaceX didn't share HOW they learned what the failures were, but then they are a for-profit company with competitors. Who are AMSAT's competitors? If AMSAT is truly promoting space education (as eluded to in the mission and vision statements), why aren't these documents public? How can we help others (or ourselves) launch successful satellites if we keep all of our procedures secret?
And yes, I AM thinking about volunteering, but I have no clue if my skills are of value. So I'm hoping to see the extent of the engineering documentation in hopes of learning if I can add anything.
--Roy K3RLD
-----------------------------------------------------------
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
Roy,
The symposium recording has some interesting information in it, particularly the lessons learned section: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHDgrI_w8hY&feature=youtu.be Thanks KO4MA for sending me the link.
I'm speculating, but maybe there's a lot they are worried about releasing because of ITAR.
After watching the video, I'd say they could use a mechanical engineer like yourself on the team. There seemed to be a number of problems with things like solder joints and antenna attachments. You should consider applying.
-Stephen N8URE
To be fair to AMSAT, there is a ton of documentation, papers, schematics, mechanical drawings, and reports that are published through the AMSAT journal and the annual symposium proceedings. Journal archives are available to members and symposium proceeding copies can be bought through the store.
That's not to say what you are looking for specifically is there, or that this is good enough for someone to consider it 'available'. I don't want to reopen the open source debate, but even when source code and hardware designs are "open" that does not mean they are in a usable / valuable format. I say this to highlight that there is a lot of information shared today.
-Corey KB9JHU
On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 8:55 AM Roy Dean royldean@gmail.com wrote:
Zach,
Interesting that you used SpaceX's failed landing clips. This is exactly what we (likely the entire amateur satellite community) are hoping to learn, what caused each of the failures. Sure, SpaceX didn't share HOW they learned what the failures were, but then they are a for-profit company with competitors. Who are AMSAT's competitors? If AMSAT is truly promoting space education (as eluded to in the mission and vision statements), why aren't these documents public? How can we help others (or ourselves) launch successful satellites if we keep all of our procedures secret?
And yes, I AM thinking about volunteering, but I have no clue if my skills are of value. So I'm hoping to see the extent of the engineering documentation in hopes of learning if I can add anything.
--Roy K3RLD
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
It's hard to know why people do or don't do the things they do, but if I were to speculate, I would say it seems like some of the AMSAT folks involved with Fox might be sensitive to questions about failures. People naturally want to know why things don't work out, and when their questions aren't answered or aren't answered adequately enough, they become frustrated. When questions come out in a frustrated manner, that makes someone who is sensitive to questions/criticism even less able to answer forthrightly. Now we're at this point where everyone is walking on eggshells and no one is happy. Also, some people are throwing actual insults and attacks. The situation sucks.
The point about information being available vs being usable/valuable is a good point. Reminds me of the open source term RTFM, compared to helping someone who is trying to learn. Here I think something like RTFM is being used not to intimidate or belittle noobs, but to push aside questions people are uncomfortable with. Do the people deploying RTFM like responses even know the answer? I don't think so. But don't we all agree it's hard to know the answer? I think so. There isn't "code" to describe the exact and complete state and functioning of a satellite after it leaves earth. Everyone knows that. People just want to know what we do know so they can come to a conclusion based on that. Probably they will come to the same conclusion that AMSAT leadership/engineering came to.
All that said, it should be pointed out that Drew KO4MA answered a couple questions about this on Twitter. [1] Info/ideas that weren't included in the status update about RadFxSat-2 that Jerry wrote. [2]
Among other info Drew shared, he seemed to suggest that the lack of signal (from RadFxSat-2 and perhaps the other six or seven sats that were also not heard) could be due to the 2.5 year delay in launch.
Good point. I asked a follow up question but I guess Drew went to bed before answering it: "So it was deployed, it was switched on in that process, it should have started TXing 45mins later... I assume the batteries were charged before integration. Could they have completely drained since then (how long was that)? If so could they recharge [from solar power] and it could come alive?"
Note: in Jerry's status update he said 54 minutes is when beacon was supposed to start. Was that a typo that should have been 45? I think I saw another Fox satellite was supposed to start beaconing after 59 minutes. And just now I found a source that says "about 60". [3]
73, John Brier KG4AKV
1) https://twitter.com/glasbrenner/status/1352403957755355137 2) https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org/thread/TLCPTS4V... 3) https://www.amsat.org/getting-ready-for-radfxsat-fox-1b/
On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 11:15 AM Corey Shields cshields@gmail.com wrote:
To be fair to AMSAT, there is a ton of documentation, papers, schematics, mechanical drawings, and reports that are published through the AMSAT journal and the annual symposium proceedings. Journal archives are available to members and symposium proceeding copies can be bought through the store.
That's not to say what you are looking for specifically is there, or that this is good enough for someone to consider it 'available'. I don't want to reopen the open source debate, but even when source code and hardware designs are "open" that does not mean they are in a usable / valuable format. I say this to highlight that there is a lot of information shared today.
-Corey KB9JHU
I renew my request for AMSAT-NA Engineering and Operations to publish the OIC.
If they still object, I'm sure the following questions would could be quickly answered for the benefit of the membership, with no chance of violating ITAR or NDAs with launch integrators or providers:
Was bombarding the transponder with high power CW a step taken during initial contact trials? -if YES, what was the result? What was the Tx power and antenna gain used? How many times was it tried successfully/unsuccessfully? What stations were used in these attempts (general location)? -if NO, why not? During the attempts to get Fox-1Cliff to respond, we were told that "high power stations" were used to try and get a response - why would that not have been tried for Fox-1E?
I would just like to point out, amid all the secrecy surrounding the OIC and commissioning of Fox-1E, it was a simple everyday sat op with a hamshack in his backyard in a little shed that was the first to publish a technical update on the satellite. Imagine what we could do if AMSAT-NA utilized the entire brain power of it's membership.....
I will not speak for the rest of the members, only for myself, when I say that the reason I request documentation related to the commissioning of this satellite is to improve the process for this and future satellites.
And here's my first suggestion for Golf's OIC: Every few major technical operations should have a secondary deliverable of updating the membership with a one or two line status report. Example: "Steps 12 though 26 completed - Beacon period observed to be 2:10 rather than expected 2:00. Telemetry frame count is consistent with Tx period. Telemetry shows no anomalies other than side Y over-temperature - however this is likely due to failed thermocouple/circuit as reported temperature is 800K."
--Roy K3RLD
The technical documents and schematics in the other thread were interesting, but the still didn't answer the simple question of what the LO is. I guess we can calculate them since we know the TX and RX frequencies and that the IF is 45 MHz.
I've been thinking about what this high power result might mean. If the output path from the satellite is bad but the input is good, then we should hear a weak downlink even with a normal uplink power. If the input path is bad but the output is good, we should hear a normal downlink when hitting it with a lot of power, and we should hear the beacon, like AO-95. So the fact that we need a lot of power up to get a little down seems to indicate both paths are having a problem. My first guess would then be that the antennas didn't deploy. So what's the gain of a still stowed cubesat antenna vs. open? Maybe someone with a cubesat model can measure it.
Another possibility is that power is not getting to the LNA and TX amplifiers, but we'd have to look at the PC board schematic to see if that makes sense.
-Stephen N8URE
On 01/29/21 15:13, sjdevience@gmail.com wrote:
The technical documents and schematics in the other thread were interesting, but the still didn't answer the simple question of what the LO is. I guess we can calculate them since we know the TX and RX frequencies and that the IF is 45 MHz.
You are correct: The IF, based on the schematic, looks to be 45 MHz. There are two stages of filter/amplifier with the ECS-75SMF45A30B crystal used as a band-pass filter. Knowing the uplink is ~145MHz, one can then assume that the MQF326D oscillator is 100 MHz.
However, any good RF design would be shielded and the LO leak-through using the LT5560 double-balanced mixer will likely be too weak to hear.
I've been thinking about what this high power result might mean.
< .. >
My first guess would then be that the antennas didn't deploy.
I might also hazard a guess that either or both of the U4 or U2 power amplifier driver stages has failed.
--- Zach N0ZGO
On 01/29/21 15:45, Zach Metzinger wrote:
I might also hazard a guess that either or both of the U4 or U2 power amplifier driver stages has failed.
I did a little more thinking, and one might be able to figure out if antenna deployed or it is a amplifier issue.
Transmit a powerful two-tone signal that is demonstrated on a ground model of the linear transponder (really a translator) to cause distortion products from the 1st mixer to fall in the passband, but just barely enough power to make this happen (given the additional path loss and possible polarization loss).
If the distortion products are detectable on the downlink, then the antenna is deployed and the IF strip is likely still active. The failure is probably in the PA section.
If the distortion products are not detectable on the downlink, then there is attenuation between the ground station and the first mixer (or you need a more sensitive RX antenna). This points to a failed antenna, coax, LNA, etc etc. This is a failure before the PA, in any case.
While the lack of detectable telemetry points more toward the failure being in the PA section, that failure could be additional and unrelated.
--- Zach N0ZGO
On 1/29/2021 15:13, sjdevience@gmail.com wrote:
The technical documents and schematics in the other thread were interesting, but the still didn't answer the simple question of what the LO is. I guess we can calculate them since we know the TX and RX frequencies and that the IF is 45 MHz.
I just noticed this, I don't go on here that often.
We have considered the same and have not had success nor spent a lot of time looking for a couple of reasons. The signals are at best, and to the max of the adjective, extremely weak. Our home equipment is narrow to the satellite band in both antenna and more importantly, preamps. Not hearing may well be a function of the frequencies being beyond the preamp filter/range. We tried this with AO-95 as well, not heard.
IF frequencies 190.875 MHz 390.775 MHz 44.975 MHz
Good luck, and thanks!
Jerry Buxton, NØJY
Thanks! Now that at least some signals have made the trip, it's reasonable to think the oscillators are all working at least, and there must be power to at least some of the circuits. I will keep listening.
-Stephen N8URE
Has there been any further confirmations of transmissions from the sat, apart from the initial report that the transponder might be operating?
There have been zero confirmed sightings of the BPSK beacon from FOX-1E on the SatNOGS network so far.
73 Mark VK5QI
On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 9:55 AM sjdevience@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks! Now that at least some signals have made the trip, it's reasonable to think the oscillators are all working at least, and there must be power to at least some of the circuits. I will keep listening.
-Stephen N8URE
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
I love it when a group of people come together and have ideas about how to troubleshoot a problem. Now if we could just get someone to do a spacewalk and fix it.
On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 4:46 PM Mark Jessop vk5qi@rfhead.net wrote:
Has there been any further confirmations of transmissions from the sat, apart from the initial report that the transponder might be operating?
There have been zero confirmed sightings of the BPSK beacon from FOX-1E on the SatNOGS network so far.
73 Mark VK5QI
On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 9:55 AM sjdevience@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks! Now that at least some signals have made the trip, it's reasonable to think the oscillators are all working at least, and there must be power to at least some of the circuits. I will keep listening.
-Stephen N8URE
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
Mark,
There has indeed been confirmation that the transponder shows some signs of life. Presently the important thing is to attempt to collect telemetry, no frames have been downloaded yet.
https://www.amsat.org/radfxsat-2-signals-detected-amsat-engineering-continue...
de KM1P Joe
Ok, well the SatNOGS network and its many, many ground stations still continue to monitor the Fox-1E frequency...
While telemetry is not decoded automatically (and won't be until effort is put into a decoder), the recordings made (signal at a 12kHz IF) can be used with FoxTelem thanks to great work from Chris Thompson.
73 Mark VK5QI
On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 11:59 AM Joseph B. Fitzgerald < jfitzgerald@alum.wpi.edu> wrote:
Mark,
There has indeed been confirmation that the transponder shows some signs of life. Presently the important thing is to attempt to collect telemetry, no frames have been downloaded yet.
https://www.amsat.org/radfxsat-2-signals-detected-amsat-engineering-continue...
de KM1P Joe
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
participants (16)
-
Clint Bradford -
Corey Shields -
Daniel R. Marlow -
David Reinhart -
H. Stephen Nipper -
Jean Marc Momple -
Jerry Buxton -
John Brier -
Joseph Armbruster -
Joseph B. Fitzgerald -
KENT BRITAIN -
Mark Jessop -
rhyolite＠leikhim.com -
Roy Dean -
sjdevience＠gmail.com -
Zach Metzinger