Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO
High orbit launch prices
It is hard to find exact values for the price per kilo to a geo-stationery orbit. I did find a few old numbers on the web suggesting that around the year 2000 prices were approximately 25,000 to 35,000 USD per kilo. I can only assume it will cost more today’s 2009 dollars. If we were to build our own Geo-stationary satellite and were able to keep the weight down to the same weight of AO-40 (244 kilos), that would only cost us $8.5 USD million in launching fees (plus inflation). That is not including the cost of the satellite. A ballpark Geo-stationary amateur radio satellite and launching fees would be in the 20-40 million-dollar range per satellite (SWAG).
If you have an extra 40 million kicking around then go ahead and build us a Geo satellite. Or if you work at Huges and can talk them into attaching a Micro Satellite to the next geo satellite for Free great, go for it.
I can’t afford that and I do not know anyone at Huges, so I am looking into the piggyback options. Let some other company pay the big bucks for the flight and navigation and just tag along for the ride.
In this case NASA wants to send Un-manned Landers to the Moon. All we need to do is convince them to let us attached a 1-2 kilo micro-satellite to the moon lander and use some of their power and antennas, etc.
Just look at the Huge Savings $$$ No navigation system (we have never had much luck at building our own rocket motors (AO-10- damaged satellite, AO-13 Miss fired and caused a premature reentry and AO-40 Kaboom)
No command and control RF links (just command between the Microsat and existing command and control system)
NASA will pay for the rocket (we hope)
Assuming a good landing, there will not be any need for periodic orbital changes.
It’s true that our resources for building new satellites are very limited. I believe that Putting the effort into building a Moon qualified micro satellite seems to be the most economical path to take. And will provide the greatest return on our investment.
Sincerely
Miles WF1F MarexMG.org
I realize this is still very early in the dreaming stage but it would be nice to start seeing some realistic proposals soon. How about starting with a blank worksheet that outlines the desirements and requirements. This would give folks some specifics to address.
*LUNAR System* Modulation type: Mode: Power source: Lunar transmitter (type, output power and band): Lunar TX antenna (type and gain): Lunar receiver (type and band): Lunar RX antenna (type and gain): Lunar controller (type and capability):
Delivery deadline for flight certified hardware to be launched: Length of time the system is expected to operate: Periods that the system is expected to be available for use:
Once you have some general ideas as to what the items are then you will have a good idea of the total weight, size and what it will cost to buy, build and certify for spaceflight. It would also be nice to know what sort of station equipment would be needed to use this lunar system.
*EARTH Station* Description of minimal Earth station capable of operation through above mentioned lunar system: Transmitter (type, output power and band): TX antenna (type and gain): Receiver (type and band): RX antenna (type and gain): Antenna tracking system:
The above should allow for a realistic guess at the number of users willing to and capable of operating through the system.
Kenneth ________________________________________ From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of MM [ka1rrw@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:14 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO
High orbit launch prices
It is hard to find exact values for the price per kilo to a geo-stationery orbit. I did find a few old numbers on the web suggesting that around the year 2000 prices were approximately 25,000 to 35,000 USD per kilo. I can only assume it will cost more today’s 2009 dollars. If we were to build our own Geo-stationary satellite and were able to keep the weight down to the same weight of AO-40 (244 kilos), that would only cost us $8.5 USD million in launching fees (plus inflation). That is not including the cost of the satellite. A ballpark Geo-stationary amateur radio satellite and launching fees would be in the 20-40 million-dollar range per satellite (SWAG).
If you have an extra 40 million kicking around then go ahead and build us a Geo satellite. Or if you work at Huges and can talk them into attaching a Micro Satellite to the next geo satellite for Free great, go for it.
I can’t afford that and I do not know anyone at Huges, so I am looking into the piggyback options. Let some other company pay the big bucks for the flight and navigation and just tag along for the ride.
In this case NASA wants to send Un-manned Landers to the Moon. All we need to do is convince them to let us attached a 1-2 kilo micro-satellite to the moon lander and use some of their power and antennas, etc.
Just look at the Huge Savings $$$ No navigation system (we have never had much luck at building our own rocket motors (AO-10- damaged satellite, AO-13 Miss fired and caused a premature reentry and AO-40 Kaboom)
No command and control RF links (just command between the Microsat and existing command and control system)
NASA will pay for the rocket (we hope)
Assuming a good landing, there will not be any need for periodic orbital changes.
It’s true that our resources for building new satellites are very limited. I believe that Putting the effort into building a Moon qualified micro satellite seems to be the most economical path to take. And will provide the greatest return on our investment.
Sincerely
Miles WF1F MarexMG.org
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi Kenneth, et al,
Would this be a good opportunity to dust off the low data rate digital package that was planned for Eagle? If I recall, it was to be multi-service and operate at relatively low s/n levels. Replace the antennas, of course, and the radio power amps. The resulting Earth station should still be quite affordable.
Just a thought,
Greg KO6TH
From: kenneth.g.ransom@nasa.gov To: ka1rrw@yahoo.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 21:29:47 -0500 Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO
I realize this is still very early in the dreaming stage but it would be nice to start seeing some realistic proposals soon. How about starting with a blank worksheet that outlines the desirements and requirements. This would give folks some specifics to address.
*LUNAR System* Modulation type: Mode: Power source: Lunar transmitter (type, output power and band): Lunar TX antenna (type and gain): Lunar receiver (type and band): Lunar RX antenna (type and gain): Lunar controller (type and capability):
Delivery deadline for flight certified hardware to be launched: Length of time the system is expected to operate: Periods that the system is expected to be available for use:
Once you have some general ideas as to what the items are then you will have a good idea of the total weight, size and what it will cost to buy, build and certify for spaceflight. It would also be nice to know what sort of station equipment would be needed to use this lunar system.
*EARTH Station* Description of minimal Earth station capable of operation through above mentioned lunar system: Transmitter (type, output power and band): TX antenna (type and gain): Receiver (type and band): RX antenna (type and gain): Antenna tracking system:
The above should allow for a realistic guess at the number of users willing to and capable of operating through the system.
Kenneth ________________________________________ From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of MM [ka1rrw@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:14 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO
High orbit launch prices
It is hard to find exact values for the price per kilo to a geo-stationery orbit. I did find a few old numbers on the web suggesting that around the year 2000 prices were approximately 25,000 to 35,000 USD per kilo. I can only assume it will cost more today’s 2009 dollars. If we were to build our own Geo-stationary satellite and were able to keep the weight down to the same weight of AO-40 (244 kilos), that would only cost us $8.5 USD million in launching fees (plus inflation). That is not including the cost of the satellite. A ballpark Geo-stationary amateur radio satellite and launching fees would be in the 20-40 million-dollar range per satellite (SWAG).
If you have an extra 40 million kicking around then go ahead and build us a Geo satellite. Or if you work at Huges and can talk them into attaching a Micro Satellite to the next geo satellite for Free great, go for it.
I can’t afford that and I do not know anyone at Huges, so I am looking into the piggyback options. Let some other company pay the big bucks for the flight and navigation and just tag along for the ride.
In this case NASA wants to send Un-manned Landers to the Moon. All we need to do is convince them to let us attached a 1-2 kilo micro-satellite to the moon lander and use some of their power and antennas, etc.
Just look at the Huge Savings $$$ No navigation system (we have never had much luck at building our own rocket motors (AO-10- damaged satellite, AO-13 Miss fired and caused a premature reentry and AO-40 Kaboom)
No command and control RF links (just command between the Microsat and existing command and control system)
NASA will pay for the rocket (we hope)
Assuming a good landing, there will not be any need for periodic orbital changes.
It’s true that our resources for building new satellites are very limited. I believe that Putting the effort into building a Moon qualified micro satellite seems to be the most economical path to take. And will provide the greatest return on our investment.
Sincerely
Miles WF1F MarexMG.org
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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We have been discussing building and packaging a system that is SEPARATE from the rest of the landing craft that would take up weight and not supply ANY benefit to any mission support.
What if we change that to from just asking for a FREE ride to helping provide mission specific support ALONG with supplying the band width for our needs? If we could build a package that would support the PRIMARY mission and then could be switched over for our needs during or after the mission, don't you think that we MAY get a better consideration for a FREE ride for these ideas?
Domenico, I8CVS, brings up a good point about IF bandwidth also. 1) How many QSOs do we want to be able to have on this? FM would be a HUGE waste of resources (even though a modulated CW beacon may be an idea to entice some of the FM users). a) 2 SBB/6 CW? b) 5 SSB/15 CW? c) 10 SSB/30 CW? 2) How much electrical power do we need to supply for each of these amounts? 3) IS it feasible to have that many or do we have to limit ourselves?
Kenneth brings up good points also. 1) How LONG do we PLAN this to be usable? 2) Power source - solar? nuclear? battery (even though I don't think they would last very long, still have to consider them here)? 3) WHAT do we need to do to certify this package for flight? 4) HOW many do we need to build to get ONE certified as flight ready hardware? 5) How do we control it? 6) How complicated do we want to go?
As far as the Earth station, the bigger the better as always. But anything above 23cm would be feasible EVEN for that antenna restricted home station that is becoming the norm now a days.
45 element 1.2GHz antenna: Boom Length: 144 inches Weight: 5 pounds Gain: 20dbi 3db Beamwidth: 16 degrees
52 element 2.4GHz loop antenna: Boom Length: 96 inches Weight: 3 pounds Gain: 21 dbi 3db Beamwidth: 14 degrees
45 element 3.4GHz antenna: Boom Length: 60 inches Weight: 1.5 pounds Gain: 20dbi 3db Beamwidth: 16 degrees
These are figures that I have handy for antennas I already have. Each of these antennas can be had from Directive Systems for about one hundred and fifty dollars each as a kit, more if you want it already assembled. I give these as EXAMPLES to help out. Preamps and amplifiers are extra. But even those are cheap if you want to tinker some. I found a 75 watt 2.4GHz amplifier for 20 dollars at Dayton this year that would give me about half that if I run it on 12 volts instead of 26 volts.
1.2GHz/2.4GHz antennas: 300 dollars 1.2GHz preamp: 50 dollars 2.4GHz amplifier: 25 dollars sequencer: 60 dollars 1.2GHz transverter: 100 dollars (W1GHZ type) 2.4GHz transverter: 100 dollars (W1GHZ type) Misc. parts: 100 dollars TOTAL: 735 dollars (+/-) This is presuming that the station ALREADY has a 2m SSB radio and no homebrewing other than putting together the W1GHZ transverters, sequencer, 2.4GHZ amplifier, and antenna mounting hardware. So cost CAN be kept down to about 1000 dollars, maybe even less than the 735 dollar figure if the station is very creative (possibly around the 500 dollar mark then).
If the plan stays at using 2m and 70cms, antennas do get bulkier and harder to handle for teardown and setup. ( I know - I am preaching to the choir here...<L>)
Figures are based on what I already have handy, so I may have to add or change depending on what bands are used.
James W8ISS ===== On Thu, 2009-07-02 at 21:29 -0500, Ransom, Kenneth G. (JSC-OC)[BARRIOS TECHNOLOGY] wrote:
I realize this is still very early in the dreaming stage but it would be nice to start seeing some realistic proposals soon. How about starting with a blank worksheet that outlines the desirements and requirements. This would give folks some specifics to address.
*LUNAR System* Modulation type: Mode: Power source: Lunar transmitter (type, output power and band): Lunar TX antenna (type and gain): Lunar receiver (type and band): Lunar RX antenna (type and gain): Lunar controller (type and capability):
Delivery deadline for flight certified hardware to be launched: Length of time the system is expected to operate: Periods that the system is expected to be available for use:
Once you have some general ideas as to what the items are then you will have a good idea of the total weight, size and what it will cost to buy, build and certify for spaceflight. It would also be nice to know what sort of station equipment would be needed to use this lunar system.
*EARTH Station* Description of minimal Earth station capable of operation through above mentioned lunar system: Transmitter (type, output power and band): TX antenna (type and gain): Receiver (type and band): RX antenna (type and gain): Antenna tracking system:
The above should allow for a realistic guess at the number of users willing to and capable of operating through the system.
Kenneth ________________________________________ From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of MM [ka1rrw@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:14 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO
High orbit launch prices
It is hard to find exact values for the price per kilo to a geo-stationery orbit. I did find a few old numbers on the web suggesting that around the year 2000 prices were approximately 25,000 to 35,000 USD per kilo. I can only assume it will cost more today’s 2009 dollars. If we were to build our own Geo-stationary satellite and were able to keep the weight down to the same weight of AO-40 (244 kilos), that would only cost us $8.5 USD million in launching fees (plus inflation). That is not including the cost of the satellite. A ballpark Geo-stationary amateur radio satellite and launching fees would be in the 20-40 million-dollar range per satellite (SWAG).
If you have an extra 40 million kicking around then go ahead and build us a Geo satellite. Or if you work at Huges and can talk them into attaching a Micro Satellite to the next geo satellite for Free great, go for it.
I can’t afford that and I do not know anyone at Huges, so I am looking into the piggyback options. Let some other company pay the big bucks for the flight and navigation and just tag along for the ride.
In this case NASA wants to send Un-manned Landers to the Moon. All we need to do is convince them to let us attached a 1-2 kilo micro-satellite to the moon lander and use some of their power and antennas, etc.
Just look at the Huge Savings $$$ No navigation system (we have never had much luck at building our own rocket motors (AO-10- damaged satellite, AO-13 Miss fired and caused a premature reentry and AO-40 Kaboom)
No command and control RF links (just command between the Microsat and existing command and control system)
NASA will pay for the rocket (we hope)
Assuming a good landing, there will not be any need for periodic orbital changes.
It’s true that our resources for building new satellites are very limited. I believe that Putting the effort into building a Moon qualified micro satellite seems to be the most economical path to take. And will provide the greatest return on our investment.
Sincerely
Miles WF1F MarexMG.org
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
James French wrote:
We have been discussing building and packaging a system that is SEPARATE from the rest of the landing craft that would take up weight and not supply ANY benefit to any mission support.
What if we change that to from just asking for a FREE ride to helping provide mission specific support ALONG with supplying the band width for our needs? If we could build a package that would support the PRIMARY mission and then could be switched over for our needs during or after the mission, don't you think that we MAY get a better consideration for a FREE ride for these ideas?
I like that,
Domenico, I8CVS, brings up a good point about IF bandwidth also.
- How many QSOs do we want to be able to have on this?
FM would be a HUGE waste of resources (even though a modulated CW beacon may be an idea to entice some of the FM users). a) 2 SBB/6 CW? b) 5 SSB/15 CW? c) 10 SSB/30 CW?
How about PSK? I've seen like 20 of them in a single ssb window, and pretty deep into the noise still too. something to think about?
- How much electrical power do we need to supply for each of these
amounts? 3) IS it feasible to have that many or do we have to limit ourselves?
Kenneth brings up good points also.
- How LONG do we PLAN this to be usable?
- Power source - solar? nuclear? battery (even though I don't think they would last very long, still have to consider them here)?
- WHAT do we need to do to certify this package for flight?
- HOW many do we need to build to get ONE certified as flight ready
hardware? 5) How do we control it? 6) How complicated do we want to go?
As far as the Earth station, the bigger the better as always. But anything above 23cm would be feasible EVEN for that antenna restricted home station that is becoming the norm now a days.
45 element 1.2GHz antenna: Boom Length: 144 inches Weight: 5 pounds Gain: 20dbi 3db Beamwidth: 16 degrees
52 element 2.4GHz loop antenna: Boom Length: 96 inches Weight: 3 pounds Gain: 21 dbi 3db Beamwidth: 14 degrees
45 element 3.4GHz antenna: Boom Length: 60 inches Weight: 1.5 pounds Gain: 20dbi 3db Beamwidth: 16 degrees
These are figures that I have handy for antennas I already have. Each of these antennas can be had from Directive Systems for about one hundred and fifty dollars each as a kit, more if you want it already assembled. I give these as EXAMPLES to help out. Preamps and amplifiers are extra. But even those are cheap if you want to tinker some. I found a 75 watt 2.4GHz amplifier for 20 dollars at Dayton this year that would give me about half that if I run it on 12 volts instead of 26 volts.
1.2GHz/2.4GHz antennas: 300 dollars 1.2GHz preamp: 50 dollars 2.4GHz amplifier: 25 dollars sequencer: 60 dollars 1.2GHz transverter: 100 dollars (W1GHZ type) 2.4GHz transverter: 100 dollars (W1GHZ type) Misc. parts: 100 dollars TOTAL: 735 dollars (+/-) This is presuming that the station ALREADY has a 2m SSB radio and no homebrewing other than putting together the W1GHZ transverters, sequencer, 2.4GHZ amplifier, and antenna mounting hardware. So cost CAN be kept down to about 1000 dollars, maybe even less than the 735 dollar figure if the station is very creative (possibly around the 500 dollar mark then).
If the plan stays at using 2m and 70cms, antennas do get bulkier and harder to handle for teardown and setup. ( I know - I am preaching to the choir here...<L>)
Figures are based on what I already have handy, so I may have to add or change depending on what bands are used.
James W8ISS
On Thu, 2009-07-02 at 21:29 -0500, Ransom, Kenneth G. (JSC-OC)[BARRIOS TECHNOLOGY] wrote:
I realize this is still very early in the dreaming stage but it would be nice to start seeing some realistic proposals soon. How about starting with a blank worksheet that outlines the desirements and requirements. This would give folks some specifics to address.
*LUNAR System* Modulation type: Mode: Power source: Lunar transmitter (type, output power and band): Lunar TX antenna (type and gain): Lunar receiver (type and band): Lunar RX antenna (type and gain): Lunar controller (type and capability):
Delivery deadline for flight certified hardware to be launched: Length of time the system is expected to operate: Periods that the system is expected to be available for use:
Once you have some general ideas as to what the items are then you will have a good idea of the total weight, size and what it will cost to buy, build and certify for spaceflight. It would also be nice to know what sort of station equipment would be needed to use this lunar system.
*EARTH Station* Description of minimal Earth station capable of operation through above mentioned lunar system: Transmitter (type, output power and band): TX antenna (type and gain): Receiver (type and band): RX antenna (type and gain): Antenna tracking system:
The above should allow for a realistic guess at the number of users willing to and capable of operating through the system.
Kenneth ________________________________________ From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of MM [ka1rrw@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:14 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Moon can cost less than HEO/GEO
High orbit launch prices
It is hard to find exact values for the price per kilo to a geo-stationery orbit. I did find a few old numbers on the web suggesting that around the year 2000 prices were approximately 25,000 to 35,000 USD per kilo. I can only assume it will cost more today’s 2009 dollars. If we were to build our own Geo-stationary satellite and were able to keep the weight down to the same weight of AO-40 (244 kilos), that would only cost us $8.5 USD million in launching fees (plus inflation). That is not including the cost of the satellite. A ballpark Geo-stationary amateur radio satellite and launching fees would be in the 20-40 million-dollar range per satellite (SWAG).
If you have an extra 40 million kicking around then go ahead and build us a Geo satellite. Or if you work at Huges and can talk them into attaching a Micro Satellite to the next geo satellite for Free great, go for it.
I can’t afford that and I do not know anyone at Huges, so I am looking into the piggyback options. Let some other company pay the big bucks for the flight and navigation and just tag along for the ride.
In this case NASA wants to send Un-manned Landers to the Moon. All we need to do is convince them to let us attached a 1-2 kilo micro-satellite to the moon lander and use some of their power and antennas, etc.
Just look at the Huge Savings $$$ No navigation system (we have never had much luck at building our own rocket motors (AO-10- damaged satellite, AO-13 Miss fired and caused a premature reentry and AO-40 Kaboom)
No command and control RF links (just command between the Microsat and existing command and control system)
NASA will pay for the rocket (we hope)
Assuming a good landing, there will not be any need for periodic orbital changes.
It’s true that our resources for building new satellites are very limited. I believe that Putting the effort into building a Moon qualified micro satellite seems to be the most economical path to take. And will provide the greatest return on our investment.
Sincerely
Miles WF1F MarexMG.org
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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participants (5)
-
Greg D. -
James French -
Joe -
MM -
Ransom, Kenneth G. (JSC-OC)[BARRIOS TECHNOLOGY]