Hi Rico,

Thank you for that explanation.

The main problem here is that the original antenna has the UHF elements just to help the VHF tune into UHF. It's not a true dual feed VHF/UHF. So if I get this concept in circular polarisation it'll always be for the VHF leaving UHF to the mercy of a low gain.

The simulation confirms that the gain will bend into an elliptical polarisation, but not that significant.

It's tricky alright.

Here are the calculations from 4nec2.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6751494/single_VHF.png https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6751494/single_UHF.png

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6751494/3inch_VHF.png https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6751494/3inch_UHF.png

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6751494/16inch_VHF.png https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6751494/16inch_UHF.png

73s Pedro CU2ZG

Quoting Rico van Genugten [email protected]:

Hi Pedro,

I have thought about this subject a lot. How to build an antenna that is single boom, dual band, circularly polarized. I have come to the conclusion that it is pretty difficult due to the following considerations:

• To create a circularly polarized antenna a phase shift of 1/4 wl is

needed. A phase shift can be obtained through physical distance on the boom, or a difference in feed line length.

• When a phase shift of 0 is produced, for instance when the elements are

on the same location on the boom and there is no feed line difference, you will end up with a diagonal linear polarized antenna. Think about it: You have two perpendicular linear antennas in the same plane, the resultant will be the summation of the two antennes: a diagonal antenna.

• When a phase shift of anything in between 0 and 1/4 wl (or any multiple)

is produced, the antenna polarization is somewhere between linear and circular: it will be elliptically polarized. This will mean that it is not completely deaf in one plane like a linear antenna, but will have a gain optimum in a particular plane and a gain minimum in a plane perpendicular to it.

• 1/4 wl spacing on UHF is (obviously) not the same as 1/4 wl spacing on

VHF, but if you use open-sleeve feeding (2 feed points) there is no way to manipulate either the position on the boom or the feed line difference for VHF and UHF independently

• If you use 4 feed points you have full control of the placing of the four

antennas on the boom and the feed line differences and are probably able to produce a true single boom, dual band, circularly polarized antenna, but the VHF and UHF antennas will influence each other so strongly that you will probably end up placing the UHF antenna after the last element of the VHF antenna, leaving you with either a very long boom or very little gain.

My two cents. :)

73, Rico PA3RVG

On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 1:16 PM, Pedro via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:

...

Hi all,

The best of ham radio is that you can build and experiment.

My current portable yagi is a dualband single fed (VHF element) home built, from DK7ZB designs, 4+5 elements version. VHF has 9.25dB gain 1.03SWR, UHF 8.67dB 1.12SWR. It works like a charm.

Now that I'm on the final stages of condo permits for a tower - although it's a tower on top of the building there are still space limitations - my goal is to build a crossed polarity set of my portable antenna. Something similar to what Gulf Alpha had, but instead of 4 feed points, one for each band/polarisation, I'll have only two, combined into one impedance matched feed line to the shack.

Due to the required materials for the feed points and the elements positions I came up with 2 versions where the vertical antenna is ahead of the horizontal by 3 inches and 16 inches. My understanding is that circular polarisation would require a specific position for the vertical antenna plus the proper cable circuit for it. I'm aware that RHCP would give me a stable signal reception, rather than my setup even tilted 45 degrees instead of plain horizontal/vertical. I saw PU3GUO report on his VHF only antenna while receiving ANDE.

I've ran the model in 4nec2 for the two options, 145MHz and 435MHz, and using 5W. Here are my findings.

3 inches separation:

VHF Both antennas 1.03SWR Combined gain 9.25dB

UHF Both antennas 1.12SWR Combined gain 8.67dB

16 inches separation:

VHF Both antennas 1.03SWR Combined gain 9.24dB

UHF Horizontal antenna 1.12SWR; Vertical antenna 1.49SWR Combined gain 8.27dB

My conclusion is that advancing the vertical antenna by so many inches will result in interference from the horizontal one in such way that the gain is lower and SWR increases. Gain in UHF is lower, expected as same happens in my current portable antenna, and that's because it's being fed in the VHF element.

Has anyone built something similar that can share any comments? Would there be any other configuration possible for a single boom?

Thanks in advance.

73s de Pedro CU2ZG, HM77

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What about putting the VHF elements at a 45 degree angle to the UHF elements? Say, for example, the VHF elements were vertical and horizontal, then the UHF elements would be the two diagonals, up-to-the-right and down-to-the-right. That might help to reduce interference between the two bands. This would (at least theoretically) allow the VHF and UHF elements to be interspersed within one another. One VHF feed and one UHF feed could start at nearly the same boom position, and the second VHF feed could be spaced 1/4 of the VHF frequency forward, while the second UHF feed could be spaced 1/4 of the UHF frequency (i.e., about a third as far of a distance) forward. I suppose it could get pretty crowded on the boom, but it is at least theoretically possible. I'd be curious to see what a NEC simulation predicts.

On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 9:48 AM, Pedro via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:

Hi Rico,

Thank you for that explanation.

The main problem here is that the original antenna has the UHF elements just to help the VHF tune into UHF. It's not a true dual feed VHF/UHF. So if I get this concept in circular polarisation it'll always be for the VHF leaving UHF to the mercy of a low gain.

The simulation confirms that the gain will bend into an elliptical polarisation, but not that significant.

It's tricky alright.

Here are the calculations from 4nec2.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6751494/single_VHF.png https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6751494/single_UHF.png

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6751494/3inch_VHF.png https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6751494/3inch_UHF.png

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6751494/16inch_VHF.png https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6751494/16inch_UHF.png

73s Pedro CU2ZG

Quoting Rico van Genugten [email protected]:

Hi Pedro,

...

I have thought about this subject a lot. How to build an antenna that is single boom, dual band, circularly polarized. I have come to the conclusion that it is pretty difficult due to the following considerations:

• To create a circularly polarized antenna a phase shift of 1/4 wl is

needed. A phase shift can be obtained through physical distance on the boom, or a difference in feed line length.

• When a phase shift of 0 is produced, for instance when the elements are

on the same location on the boom and there is no feed line difference, you will end up with a diagonal linear polarized antenna. Think about it: You have two perpendicular linear antennas in the same plane, the resultant will be the summation of the two antennes: a diagonal antenna.

• When a phase shift of anything in between 0 and 1/4 wl (or any multiple)

is produced, the antenna polarization is somewhere between linear and circular: it will be elliptically polarized. This will mean that it is not completely deaf in one plane like a linear antenna, but will have a gain optimum in a particular plane and a gain minimum in a plane perpendicular to it.

• 1/4 wl spacing on UHF is (obviously) not the same as 1/4 wl spacing on

VHF, but if you use open-sleeve feeding (2 feed points) there is no way to manipulate either the position on the boom or the feed line difference for VHF and UHF independently

• If you use 4 feed points you have full control of the placing of the

four antennas on the boom and the feed line differences and are probably able to produce a true single boom, dual band, circularly polarized antenna, but the VHF and UHF antennas will influence each other so strongly that you will probably end up placing the UHF antenna after the last element of the VHF antenna, leaving you with either a very long boom or very little gain.

My two cents. :)

73, Rico PA3RVG

On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 1:16 PM, Pedro via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:

Hi all,

...

The best of ham radio is that you can build and experiment.

My current portable yagi is a dualband single fed (VHF element) home built, from DK7ZB designs, 4+5 elements version. VHF has 9.25dB gain 1.03SWR, UHF 8.67dB 1.12SWR. It works like a charm.

Now that I'm on the final stages of condo permits for a tower - although it's a tower on top of the building there are still space limitations - my goal is to build a crossed polarity set of my portable antenna. Something similar to what Gulf Alpha had, but instead of 4 feed points, one for each band/polarisation, I'll have only two, combined into one impedance matched feed line to the shack.

Due to the required materials for the feed points and the elements positions I came up with 2 versions where the vertical antenna is ahead of the horizontal by 3 inches and 16 inches. My understanding is that circular polarisation would require a specific position for the vertical antenna plus the proper cable circuit for it. I'm aware that RHCP would give me a stable signal reception, rather than my setup even tilted 45 degrees instead of plain horizontal/vertical. I saw PU3GUO report on his VHF only antenna while receiving ANDE.

I've ran the model in 4nec2 for the two options, 145MHz and 435MHz, and using 5W. Here are my findings.

3 inches separation:

VHF Both antennas 1.03SWR Combined gain 9.25dB

UHF Both antennas 1.12SWR Combined gain 8.67dB

16 inches separation:

VHF Both antennas 1.03SWR Combined gain 9.24dB

UHF Horizontal antenna 1.12SWR; Vertical antenna 1.49SWR Combined gain 8.27dB

My conclusion is that advancing the vertical antenna by so many inches will result in interference from the horizontal one in such way that the gain is lower and SWR increases. Gain in UHF is lower, expected as same happens in my current portable antenna, and that's because it's being fed in the VHF element.

Has anyone built something similar that can share any comments? Would there be any other configuration possible for a single boom?

Thanks in advance.

73s de Pedro CU2ZG, HM77

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-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.

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---

Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb