On Wednesday 05 December 2007 00:53:08 Rick Mann wrote:

On Dec 4, 2007, at 9:42 PM, kc6uqh wrote:

...

Before you give up I suggest you buy the silver plated PL-259' s If you can't find them, then with a pocket knife or small file remove the nickel plating, use a good grade of rosin flux 37% Pb 63%Sn solder. THe aluminum will not solder but the braid is tin plated copper. You need a 250 Watt soldering gun or 100Watt iron Heat the first hole add solder then the second etc after the third hole you will notice the connector is hot enough for the solder to wick into the holes.

Thanks, but I've already spent a small fortune in additional tools to do this. I'm done. I just want to buy well-made cables.

Well, I can't think of a better place than the RF Connection, in Maryland. Ask for Joel, and during the conversation mention "crabs". He'll be very puzzled that you said that. ;-) (we've met him in MD for maryland blue crabs).

--STeve Andre' wb8wsf en82

Edward Cole expunged (kl7uw@acsalaska.net):

One reason to use N-connectors is that they assemble with the 9913 and LMR-400 foil shielded cables without need for soldering. Either the traditional compression-clamp style or crimp style do not require soldering the shield. The benefit is a better designed RF connector will less impedance "bump".

I tend to use LMR-400 and LMR-400UF for most projects, even at HF. I'm seriously considering purchasing a complete toolset from Times Microwave for terminating connectors. The tools are expensive, but there is nothing like knowing you have a solid cable.

Times Microwave has some great videos on their site showing proper installation of connectors, it's worth watching even if you don't plan on buying their tools.

http://www.timesmicrowave.com/connectors/videos.shtml

-Steve N1JFU

I have just assembled PL-259's without soldering the shield and they seem to work (tested only with SWR meter). But without solder the contact will deteriorate over time as the copper braid oxidizes. Not so bad if only used for inside connections. Since compression is used with other style connectors this may work fine. I would just be sure to thoroughly wx-seal any connectors that will be outside. Then time will tell if this method is good. Soldering all the holes in the PL-259 seals the connector from moisture intrusion (if taped).

I much prefer using N-connectors just about everywhere because of the superior contact design. PL-259 is not a good connector above 2m and is marginal at 2m. I wonder how this method of construction affects use with very high power (1500w)? For satellite RF levels (<50w) it may be OK.

73 - Ed

At 06:59 PM 12/5/2007, Auke de Jong, VE6PWN wrote:

I thought it was a bad idea, untill I borrowed an anritsu 331D and swept my feedlines for proof one way or the other... I just folded the shield back over the sheath, and twisted the PL-259 onto the cable until the dielectric was past the solder holes, trimmed-off the excess shielding, soldered the centre conductor, and called it good. It seems to work well on both RG-8 and several different LMR-400 equivalent cables that I have tried. hardly even a bump on the tester thru 450MHz!

Auke, VE6PWN ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Mann" rmann@latencyzero.com To: "AMSAT-BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 9:47 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Where can I buy pre-made feedline?

...

I'd like Belden 9913 with PL-259 connectors pre-attached, 50'. Ham Radio Outlet (every store) is out of this, and so they sold me 50' bulk cable and connectors. I have been trying VERY unsuccessfully to solder these, but I am unable to do it. I can sold 0603 SMT resistors and 0.5 mm pitch TQFPs, but not this.

I have tried multiple techniques. I am no longer interested in trying to solder this.

Google has been less than helpful in finding online stores.

Can someone point me to a reputable online retailer who can ship this to me immediately? Thank you!

-- Rick

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On Dec 6, 2007, at 11:17 AM, Dave Guimont wrote:

I can't imagine using anything but "N" connectors on anything outside,to the point of changing the connector on the antenna if necessary. At any power level...

And of course it is done because of their mechanical and electrical superiority. And to improve both, secure them to something that will prohibit flexing at the connector.

Anything below VHF is ok with PL259's inside, but at VHF and above, inside, I replace the radio connector with an "N". That may be "gilding the lily".....

I have a brand-new Icom IC-910H. It has PL-259 on its VHF connector and N on the UHF. I have a duplexer with matching connectors, and PL-259 on its output. It is this that I am trying to connect to a single dual-band vertical antenna (Diamond X-30, something like that?). (I also have an Arrow II dual-band hand-held Yagi, limited to 20 W).

I don't know how feasible it is to replace the connectors. I would *love* it if all used N, but they don't. I could buy pre-made N- connector feedlines, but then I need an adapter, and that might result in more loss than it's worth.

If I could successfully solder them, it'd be great, but I simply cannot get solder to flow without first melting the outer jacket (I see it move and ooze where it exits the connector), and who knows how bad the foam dielectric is at this point?

I'm using a small butane torch, and vice grips on either side of the holes. I tried tinning the braided shield beforehand with my electric iron (a nice Metcal), but even that melts the dielectric if I'm not extremely careful (and I don't think it's bonding well to the foil shield).

How hard is it to replace the one PL-259 connector on the IC-910H with an N?

I use a male VHF to female N adapter. Do not remember where I got it, but it was one of the mail order houses. If you really do not want to use a VHF connector for 144, I would prefer the adapter over changing the socket on my 910. I prefer to stick with the different connectors as a guard against Mr. Murphy, but sometimes that is impossible.

Gene WB2LLP

I use a male VHF to female N adapter. Do not remember where I got it, but it was one of the mail order houses. If you really do not want to use a VHF connector for 144, I would prefer the adapter over changing the socket on my 910. I prefer to stick with the different connectors as a guard against Mr. Murphy, but sometimes that is impossible.

Gene,

The adapter is of no use to avoid the impedance "bump". It would be the same thing as using a 259 to begin with, and forget the adapter.

I'll say it again, Changing to an "N" on the radio is "gilding the lily", but for max performance saving every fraction of a db is heading in the right direction...

73, Dave, WB6LLO dguimon1@san.rr.com

Disagree: I learn....

Pulling for P3E...

On Dec 6, 2007, at 4:48 PM, Dave Guimont wrote:

I'll say it again, Changing to an "N" on the radio is "gilding the lily", but for max performance saving every fraction of a db is heading in the right direction...

So, as it turns out, HRO had a duplexer with an N connector on the antenna side. I just need to see about changing the connector on the antenna (and actually mounting my N-connectors), and I don't have to change the connector on the radio.

My PL-259s were all silver-plated. So are the Ns, but they are not crimp-on; I'll still have to solder them. The part that gets soldered is of substantially lower mass than the PL-259, so hopefully it'll go better. Sigh.

On Dec 6, 2007, at 6:25 PM, Rick Mann wrote:

So, as it turns out, HRO had a duplexer with an N connector on the antenna side. I just need to see about changing the connector on the antenna (and actually mounting my N-connectors), and I don't have to change the connector on the radio.

My PL-259s were all silver-plated. So are the Ns, but they are not crimp-on; I'll still have to solder them. The part that gets soldered is of substantially lower mass than the PL-259, so hopefully it'll go better. Sigh.

Who's N connectors are you using?

I've seen N connectors lately that look like PL-259's and have to be soldered on similarly to RG-8 sized coax. I tried one. Pulled on the connector after soldering it together and it had zero strain-relief for the cable being pulled on, and it ripped apart. (Well, the center conductor held on as long as it could). I wouldn't use those for anything.

There's three sitting here in the connector box, and I wouldn't wish them on my worst enemy. (In fact I should throw them out but I can't -- I'm a packrat and they'll stay there for "emergencies" that will never happen, because I have a small supply of ... see below...) They were supposed to "screw on" to the jacket of the cable for strain relief, and they frankly -- didn't. The cable I was using had a pretty stiff outer jacket -- perhaps some "softer" RG-8 sized cable would have worked better, but the "soft" stuff I have (some no-name RG-213) was not high enough quality that I wanted to use it for an outdoor run.

I have switched to LMR-400 and crimp N connectors put together with a good quality crimp tool for the VHF/UHF rover station in the Jeep, and haven't had a lick of trouble from any of those cables or connectors at all, in pretty harsh vibration and movement conditions. (The cables and things aren't fully "tied down" and things move in the shelf while I'm driving... not a lot, but the cables get flexed and moved and nothing has come apart yet. A Jeep on a dirt back road is pretty bumpy too... everything gets a good "shakedown" cruise, so to speak.

I think the investment in a good quality RF connector crimp tool, the use of Amphenol or other best-quality connectors (even when they're more expensive), and the good quality cable in the LMR-400 really helps make getting the rover ready to go or make changes a snap. For a more permanent installation, the connector would just need to be weatherproofed as needed.

We've been using crimped N connectors on repeater equipment using LMR400 for jumpers (not for the run up the tower, and LMR400 has been known to cause noise in duplexed transmit and receive repeater service, so we're limiting its use to short connections indoors) with modern crimp connectors when done right with proper cable stripping tools, crimp tools, and care of workmanship, work VERY well and exhibit some better qualities to me these days over the solder-on connectors.

-- Nate Duehr, WY0X nate@natetech.com

Hi ALL, The PL259 Connector is rated commercially to 300 MHz. Above that N, BN, BNC, TNC, MHV connectors are recommened. All but the PL259 are sealed to keep moisture out of the cables. The Family of BNC, N, etc are not without assembly problems, pin length and proper trimming of the dielectric are the main issues. 9913 and LMR 400 require special connectors to accept the larger center conductor. Made by RF Industries and others these are available at many suppliers. You must get or download the assembly / cutting instructions to make a proper connection. This includes the Crimp types. The connectors using Delrin insulators are good to 1800 MHz the ones that use Teflon are good to 22 GHz. Both materials are white but teflon doesn't melt with a soldering Iron. Good Luck, Learning by doing is a GOOD THING!

Art, KC6UQH

----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Mann" rmann@latencyzero.com To: "Dave Guimont" dguimon1@san.rr.com Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 2:11 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Where can I buy pre-made feedline?

On Dec 6, 2007, at 11:17 AM, Dave Guimont wrote:

...

I can't imagine using anything but "N" connectors on anything outside,to the point of changing the connector on the antenna if necessary. At any power level...

And of course it is done because of their mechanical and electrical superiority. And to improve both, secure them to something that will prohibit flexing at the connector.

Anything below VHF is ok with PL259's inside, but at VHF and above, inside, I replace the radio connector with an "N". That may be "gilding the lily".....

I have a brand-new Icom IC-910H. It has PL-259 on its VHF connector and N on the UHF. I have a duplexer with matching connectors, and PL-259 on its output. It is this that I am trying to connect to a single dual-band vertical antenna (Diamond X-30, something like that?). (I also have an Arrow II dual-band hand-held Yagi, limited to 20 W).

I don't know how feasible it is to replace the connectors. I would *love* it if all used N, but they don't. I could buy pre-made N- connector feedlines, but then I need an adapter, and that might result in more loss than it's worth.

If I could successfully solder them, it'd be great, but I simply cannot get solder to flow without first melting the outer jacket (I see it move and ooze where it exits the connector), and who knows how bad the foam dielectric is at this point?

I'm using a small butane torch, and vice grips on either side of the holes. I tried tinning the braided shield beforehand with my electric iron (a nice Metcal), but even that melts the dielectric if I'm not extremely careful (and I don't think it's bonding well to the foil shield).

How hard is it to replace the one PL-259 connector on the IC-910H with an N?

-- Rick

---

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Edward Cole wrote:

I have just assembled PL-259's without soldering the shield and they seem to work (tested only with SWR meter). But without solder the contact will deteriorate over time as the copper braid oxidizes. Not so bad if only used for inside connections. Since compression is used with other style connectors this may work fine. I would just be sure to thoroughly wx-seal any connectors that will be outside. Then time will tell if this method is good. Soldering all the holes in the PL-259 seals the connector from moisture intrusion (if taped).

Not soldering the braid seems to me like it could cause a big problem if you use a proper service entrance panel and polyphasers for lightning protection. You need a good shield connection for grounding. Granted, not many hams do the grounding/protection "properly" at home, but then again -- a lot of hams lose gear to lightning that probably wouldn't be lost if built properly.

It would also seem that if the shield has a questionable ground, you wouldn't get as much protection from other high RF noise sources in the local vicinity from the shield.

The partially or un-grounded shield could also become an IM generator in the form of metal-on-metal contact that's not solid. Not a problem in most home installations, but bad practice in general.

Nate WY0X