Hi all,
I didn't get a response the last time I asked, so I'll try again, slightly differently.
What TNC or TNC-like equipment do I need to listen to BeeSat at 4800 bps? I have a TS-2000, yagi antenna, rotator, and KAM-XL, but the KAM-XL can only do GMSK at 9600 bps.
Thanks in advance for your time,
Nate KC2SVI
Symek sells modems that can be modified for operation at 4.8-614.4 kbaud (http://www.symek.com/g/index-g.html).
73,
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nathaniel S. Parsons" nsp25@cornell.edu To: "AMSAT-BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 16:40 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] BeeSat at 4800 GMSK
Hi all,
I didn't get a response the last time I asked, so I'll try again, slightly differently.
What TNC or TNC-like equipment do I need to listen to BeeSat at 4800 bps? I have a TS-2000, yagi antenna, rotator, and KAM-XL, but the KAM-XL can only do GMSK at 9600 bps.
Thanks in advance for your time,
Nate KC2SVI _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Thanks everyone who has responded. If you emailed me personally, I hope I have gotten back to you already (otherwise, please try to send again in a way my filter won't catch). For those that cc'd the list:
John - Thanks for the link, I'll look through it as soon as possible.
Henk - Thanks for the dk3wn website, it looks like it has a lot of good stuff (almost overwhelming).
Can I assume MSK=GMSK? I thought they were different, but they are the same, and since MixW has MSK, and I could use that with a Rigblaster, etc, right?
-Nate
On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 3:17 PM, John B. Stephensen kd6ozh@comcast.netwrote:
Symek sells modems that can be modified for operation at 4.8-614.4 kbaud ( http://www.symek.com/g/index-g.html).
73,
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nathaniel S. Parsons" < nsp25@cornell.edu> To: "AMSAT-BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 16:40 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] BeeSat at 4800 GMSK
Hi all,
I didn't get a response the last time I asked, so I'll try again, slightly differently.
What TNC or TNC-like equipment do I need to listen to BeeSat at 4800 bps? I have a TS-2000, yagi antenna, rotator, and KAM-XL, but the KAM-XL can only do GMSK at 9600 bps.
Thanks in advance for your time,
Nate KC2SVI _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi Nate,
I was not aware MixW had MSK in it but still identical to GMSK. Perhaps you are thinking of MFSK? In the MixW program there is MSFK16, a multitone frequency shift signal, is supported, but not Minimum Shift Keying or Gaussian Minimum Shift Keying signals. And also FSK, aka RTTY.
There is work going on to make a sound card 4800 bps 0.5 time-bandwidth product GMSK soundcard modems for use in GMSK DV adapters to use with D-STAR radios. Perhaps that could be adapted for your purpose?
http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/voip/dstar/G4KLX.html seems to describe some of the work.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dstar_development/ and ttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/pcrepeatercontroller/ are where I see the discussion underway.
Separate discussion is using an external sound card interface like the Rigblaster, to connect a computer and radio.
73, Tom n4zpt
Nathaniel S. Parsons wrote:
Can I assume MSK=GMSK? I thought they were different, but they are the same, and since MixW has MSK, and I could use that with a Rigblaster, etc, right?
-Nate
OOPs.... not identical....
Tom Azlin N4ZPT wrote:
I was not aware MixW had MSK in it but still identical to GMSK. Perhaps
Hi Nate,
Sorry for the long delay....
MixW doesn't support GMSK. You mix that with MFSK.
BeeSat has two CMX909B modems (CML) onboard. The data is sent in the MOBITEX format, not AX.25 ! See here for more information about Mobitex: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobitex
The CMX909B is a half-duplex Gaussian Minimum Shift Keyed (GMSK) BT = 0.3 modem data pump with on-chip packet data handling. GMSK modulation optimises the data throughput for a given bandwidth RF channel and the on-chip packet data handling relieves the host µC of regular processing tasks, such as maintaining Bit and Frame Synchronisation, Block Formatting, CRC and FEC Error Processing, Data Interleaving and Scrambling.
73, Mike DK3WN
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] Im Auftrag von Tom Azlin N4ZPT Gesendet: Freitag, 9. April 2010 00:28 An: AMSAT-BB Betreff: [amsat-bb] Re: BeeSat at 4800 GMSK
Hi Nate,
I was not aware MixW had MSK in it but still identical to GMSK. Perhaps you are thinking of MFSK? In the MixW program there is MSFK16, a multitone frequency shift signal, is supported, but not Minimum Shift Keying or Gaussian Minimum Shift Keying signals. And also FSK, aka RTTY.
There is work going on to make a sound card 4800 bps 0.5 time-bandwidth product GMSK soundcard modems for use in GMSK DV adapters to use with D-STAR radios. Perhaps that could be adapted for your purpose?
http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/voip/dstar/G4KLX.html seems to describe some of the work.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dstar_development/ and ttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/pcrepeatercontroller/ are where I see the discussion underway.
Separate discussion is using an external sound card interface like the Rigblaster, to connect a computer and radio.
73, Tom n4zpt
Nathaniel S. Parsons wrote:
Can I assume MSK=GMSK? I thought they were different, but they are the
same,
and since MixW has MSK, and I could use that with a Rigblaster, etc,
right?
-Nate
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the reply while we still have time to fix things and stay on schedule.
Do you think it would be feasible to implement Mobitex in software on a µC, given a transceiver in transparent mode (will modulate and send any bits it receives on serial, and demodulate/receive any RF it receives)? We already have one dedicated to comms, and all other algorithms take place on a separate processor. I ask because at this point, it would be easier to change the software than the hardware (software has no mass or volume).
I'd say Block formatting, CRC and bit & Frame Sync would be easy enough (everything's a multiple of a byte) because they're completely described, but the interleaving and scrambling aren't which makes things much harder.
-Nate KC2SVI
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 4:03 AM, Mike Rupprecht mail@mike-rupprecht.dewrote:
Hi Nate,
Sorry for the long delay....
MixW doesn't support GMSK. You mix that with MFSK.
BeeSat has two CMX909B modems (CML) onboard. The data is sent in the MOBITEX format, not AX.25 ! See here for more information about Mobitex: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobitex
The CMX909B is a half-duplex Gaussian Minimum Shift Keyed (GMSK) BT = 0.3 modem data pump with on-chip packet data handling. GMSK modulation optimises the data throughput for a given bandwidth RF channel and the on-chip packet data handling relieves the host µC of regular processing tasks, such as maintaining Bit and Frame Synchronisation, Block Formatting, CRC and FEC Error Processing, Data Interleaving and Scrambling.
73, Mike DK3WN
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] Im Auftrag von Tom Azlin N4ZPT Gesendet: Freitag, 9. April 2010 00:28 An: AMSAT-BB Betreff: [amsat-bb] Re: BeeSat at 4800 GMSK
Hi Nate,
I was not aware MixW had MSK in it but still identical to GMSK. Perhaps you are thinking of MFSK? In the MixW program there is MSFK16, a multitone frequency shift signal, is supported, but not Minimum Shift Keying or Gaussian Minimum Shift Keying signals. And also FSK, aka RTTY.
There is work going on to make a sound card 4800 bps 0.5 time-bandwidth product GMSK soundcard modems for use in GMSK DV adapters to use with D-STAR radios. Perhaps that could be adapted for your purpose?
http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/voip/dstar/G4KLX.html seems to describe some of the work.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dstar_development/ and ttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/pcrepeatercontroller/ are where I see the discussion underway.
Separate discussion is using an external sound card interface like the Rigblaster, to connect a computer and radio.
73, Tom n4zpt
Nathaniel S. Parsons wrote:
Can I assume MSK=GMSK? I thought they were different, but they are the
same,
and since MixW has MSK, and I could use that with a Rigblaster, etc,
right?
-Nate
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi Tom,
My mind had indeed played a trick on me, and I remembered MFSK as MSK.
As far as the DStar group goes, I don't see any mention of 4800 bps or 4k8 kbps on the public page, so if it's not the group's focus, I don't want to have to rely on that solution.
Thanks, -Nate KC2SVI
On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Tom Azlin N4ZPT n4zpt@cox.net wrote:
Hi Nate,
I was not aware MixW had MSK in it but still identical to GMSK. Perhaps you are thinking of MFSK? In the MixW program there is MSFK16, a multitone frequency shift signal, is supported, but not Minimum Shift Keying or Gaussian Minimum Shift Keying signals. And also FSK, aka RTTY.
There is work going on to make a sound card 4800 bps 0.5 time-bandwidth product GMSK soundcard modems for use in GMSK DV adapters to use with D-STAR radios. Perhaps that could be adapted for your purpose?
http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/voip/dstar/G4KLX.html seems to describe some of the work.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dstar_development/ and ttp:// groups.yahoo.com/group/pcrepeatercontroller/ are where I see the discussion underway.
Separate discussion is using an external sound card interface like the Rigblaster, to connect a computer and radio.
73, Tom n4zpt
Nathaniel S. Parsons wrote:
Can I assume MSK=GMSK? I thought they were different, but they are the same, and since MixW has MSK, and I could use that with a Rigblaster, etc, right?
-Nate
Hi Nate,
the D-STAR protocol is only GMSK at 4800 bps and they selected a time-bandwidth product of 0.5. 4,800 bps or 4k8 is perhaps not talked about as that IS the standard for D-STAR. So the software there might be adaptable. that is the reason I thought to suggest it.
Good luck and 73, Tom n4zpt
Nathaniel S. Parsons wrote:
Hi Tom,
My mind had indeed played a trick on me, and I remembered MFSK as MSK.
As far as the DStar group goes, I don't see any mention of 4800 bps or 4k8 kbps on the public page, so if it's not the group's focus, I don't want to have to rely on that solution.
Thanks, -Nate KC2SVI
Well, make that the digital voice part of the protocol. The high speed digital data part is up to 128kbps which was not what I was thinking of.
73, tom n4zpt
Tom Azlin N4ZPT wrote:
Hi Nate,
the D-STAR protocol is only GMSK at 4800 bps and they selected a time-bandwidth product of 0.5. 4,800 bps or 4k8 is perhaps not talked about as that IS the standard for D-STAR. So the software there might be adaptable. that is the reason I thought to suggest it.
Good luck and 73, Tom n4zpt
Nathaniel S. Parsons wrote:
Hi Tom,
My mind had indeed played a trick on me, and I remembered MFSK as MSK.
As far as the DStar group goes, I don't see any mention of 4800 bps or 4k8 kbps on the public page, so if it's not the group's focus, I don't want to have to rely on that solution.
Thanks, -Nate KC2SVI
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Ah, thanks for clarifying. Unfortunately, if I understand you correctly, we would have to talk to our satellite via digital voice, or at 128kbps, which would be great if we could!
-Nate
On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Tom Azlin N4ZPT n4zpt@cox.net wrote:
Well, make that the digital voice part of the protocol. The high speed digital data part is up to 128kbps which was not what I was thinking of.
73, tom n4zpt
Tom Azlin N4ZPT wrote:
Hi Nate,
the D-STAR protocol is only GMSK at 4800 bps and they selected a time-bandwidth product of 0.5. 4,800 bps or 4k8 is perhaps not talked about as that IS the standard for D-STAR. So the software there might be adaptable. that is the reason I thought to suggest it.
Good luck and 73, Tom n4zpt
Nathaniel S. Parsons wrote:
Hi Tom,
My mind had indeed played a trick on me, and I remembered MFSK as MSK.
As far as the DStar group goes, I don't see any mention of 4800 bps or 4k8 kbps on the public page, so if it's not the group's focus, I don't want to have to rely on that solution.
Thanks, -Nate KC2SVI
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
D-Star protocol is 4.8kb/sec for voice 1.2 kb for FEC and 1.2kb for data. It is GMSK data, transmit rate is 3.6KHz max transmission rate, (7.2kb NRZ), deviation is 1.8 KHz for a modulation index of 0.5. BW per Carlson's rule is 7.2 KHz A vocoder module provides for the voice compression. The Data side is used for Call Sign, Name, City/ State, Brag Tape, GPS position, and Texting all done with voice simultaneously. D-Star is not very successful in mobile operation. I have had lots of conversations go R2D2 from a truck or car passing me. From a fixed position range is surprisingly good. When used on a Satellite this narrow mode I suspect is very sensitive to Doppler as well as multipath. Circular antennas on both ends will solve multipath, but Doppler shift must be dealt with. Art, KC6UQH
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Nathaniel S. Parsons Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 10:02 PM To: Tom Azlin N4ZPT Cc: AMSAT-BB Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: BeeSat at 4800 GMSK
Ah, thanks for clarifying. Unfortunately, if I understand you correctly, we would have to talk to our satellite via digital voice, or at 128kbps, which would be great if we could!
-Nate
On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Tom Azlin N4ZPT n4zpt@cox.net wrote:
Well, make that the digital voice part of the protocol. The high speed digital data part is up to 128kbps which was not what I was thinking of.
73, tom n4zpt
Tom Azlin N4ZPT wrote:
Hi Nate,
the D-STAR protocol is only GMSK at 4800 bps and they selected a time-bandwidth product of 0.5. 4,800 bps or 4k8 is perhaps not talked
about
as that IS the standard for D-STAR. So the software there might be adaptable. that is the reason I thought to suggest it.
Good luck and 73, Tom n4zpt
Nathaniel S. Parsons wrote:
Hi Tom,
My mind had indeed played a trick on me, and I remembered MFSK as MSK.
As far as the DStar group goes, I don't see any mention of 4800 bps or 4k8 kbps on the public page, so if it's not the group's focus, I don't want to have to rely on that solution.
Thanks, -Nate KC2SVI
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5016 (20100410) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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I was not trying to start a D-STAR discussion! I was simply saying that there are 4800 bps GMSK sound card modems being worked on and pointed to the groups where that discussion is underway. Ignore the protocol and content and look at the modem design in software. Then go from there.
D-STAR DV has already been used via satellite and it worked fine is what I understood. But was just an experiment not a proposal for a new satellite mode.
73, Tom n4zpt
Art McBride wrote:
D-Star protocol is 4.8kb/sec for voice 1.2 kb for FEC and 1.2kb for data. It is GMSK data, transmit rate is 3.6KHz max transmission rate, (7.2kb NRZ), deviation is 1.8 KHz for a modulation index of 0.5. BW per Carlson's rule is 7.2 KHz A vocoder module provides for the voice compression. The Data side is used for Call Sign, Name, City/ State, Brag Tape, GPS position, and Texting all done with voice simultaneously. D-Star is not very successful in mobile operation. I have had lots of conversations go R2D2 from a truck or car passing me. From a fixed position range is surprisingly good. When used on a Satellite this narrow mode I suspect is very sensitive to Doppler as well as multipath. Circular antennas on both ends will solve multipath, but Doppler shift must be dealt with. Art, KC6UQH
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Nathaniel S. Parsons Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 10:02 PM To: Tom Azlin N4ZPT Cc: AMSAT-BB Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: BeeSat at 4800 GMSK
Ah, thanks for clarifying. Unfortunately, if I understand you correctly, we would have to talk to our satellite via digital voice, or at 128kbps, which would be great if we could!
-Nate
On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Tom Azlin N4ZPT n4zpt@cox.net wrote:
Well, make that the digital voice part of the protocol. The high speed digital data part is up to 128kbps which was not what I was thinking of.
73, tom n4zpt
Tom Azlin N4ZPT wrote:
Hi Nate,
the D-STAR protocol is only GMSK at 4800 bps and they selected a time-bandwidth product of 0.5. 4,800 bps or 4k8 is perhaps not talked
about
as that IS the standard for D-STAR. So the software there might be adaptable. that is the reason I thought to suggest it.
Good luck and 73, Tom n4zpt
Nathaniel S. Parsons wrote:
Hi Tom,
My mind had indeed played a trick on me, and I remembered MFSK as MSK.
As far as the DStar group goes, I don't see any mention of 4800 bps or 4k8 kbps on the public page, so if it's not the group's focus, I don't want to have to rely on that solution.
Thanks, -Nate KC2SVI
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
NO. I was simply saying that the open source is there for the 4800 bps GMSK sound card modem. NOT using D-STAR Digital Voice. That has already been done via satellite.
NO, I was just saying ignore the high speed mode.
73, Tom n4zpt
Nathaniel S. Parsons wrote:
Ah, thanks for clarifying. Unfortunately, if I understand you correctly, we would have to talk to our satellite via digital voice, or at 128kbps, which would be great if we could!
-Nate
On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Tom Azlin N4ZPT n4zpt@cox.net wrote:
Well, make that the digital voice part of the protocol. The high speed digital data part is up to 128kbps which was not what I was thinking of.
73, tom n4zpt
Tom Azlin N4ZPT wrote:
Hi Nate,
the D-STAR protocol is only GMSK at 4800 bps and they selected a time-bandwidth product of 0.5. 4,800 bps or 4k8 is perhaps not talked about as that IS the standard for D-STAR. So the software there might be adaptable. that is the reason I thought to suggest it.
Good luck and 73, Tom n4zpt
Nathaniel S. Parsons wrote:
Hi Tom,
My mind had indeed played a trick on me, and I remembered MFSK as MSK.
As far as the DStar group goes, I don't see any mention of 4800 bps or 4k8 kbps on the public page, so if it's not the group's focus, I don't want to have to rely on that solution.
Thanks, -Nate KC2SVI
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (5)
-
Art McBride -
John B. Stephensen -
Mike Rupprecht -
Nathaniel S. Parsons -
Tom Azlin N4ZPT