I'll be darned. 9 (nine!) cubesats on board of this launch vehicle and the whole world wide amateur radio community has major problems finding somebody to launch 1 every 5 years ? Whats wrong with this picture ? I would like to find out why ESA for example has no problems launching the cubesats by the dozend  (for free i bet you), but refuse to carry just one for us. Does somebody has ESA's email address ?  :) Is it really all about the educational aspect of things ? We can use that sales pitch, too.

Andreas - VK4HHH

________________________________ From: Trevor . m5aka@yahoo.co.uk To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Thursday, 8 December 2011 9:56 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: LARES To Test Einstein's Theory

--- On Thu, 8/12/11, Bob- W7LRD w7lrd@comcast.net wrote:

can't we squeeze a little bird in there?

They'll be some CubeSat's on the launch I believe going into a 1500 by 300 km orbit see

http://www.esa.int/esaMI/Education/SEM3N03MDAF_0.html

73 Trevor M5AKA

_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

On 08.12.2011 16:17, Stefan Wagener wrote:

very simple, politics.

AMSAT-DL's leadership has openly denouced Cubesats. So two of the biggest AMSATs either can't or don't want to. Talk about a pathetic situation for our community.

Stefan VE4NSA

I don't know what kind of problem you have and why you make such crude and false presences.

What is so wrong when we are saying that we (the AMSAT-DL members and BOD) want to build and fly another "AMSAT P3-E" rather than a CubeSat?

Should we scrap P3-E for the sake of another CubeSat??

Neither does the AMSAT-DL BOD nor does our membership condemn or disapprove CubeSats.

In the past years we had CubeSat team from German Universities coming to our Symposium. We have even given advice to some of them or help *if wanted*. We also attended a critical design review of SwissCube, etc.. I was personally at the CubeSat laboratory of the University of Tokyo a couple of years ago to see some of their first CubeSats and discuss some ideas with the Students and their Professor.

We have simply decided to concentrate our efforts to what is more important for our community.

If you would have listen *carefuly* and not blinded by rage to what I have said during the AMSAT-UK Colloquium, you would not make repeatedly such statements...

Peter DB2OS President AMSAT-DL

Now, now kids...play nice over there in EU Land..

73

-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Peter Guelzow Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 3:36 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: 9 cubesats on board Vega

On 08.12.2011 16:17, Stefan Wagener wrote:

very simple, politics.

AMSAT-DL's leadership has openly denouced Cubesats. So two of the biggest AMSATs either can't or don't want to. Talk about a pathetic situation for our community.

Stefan VE4NSA

I don't know what kind of problem you have and why you make such crude and false presences.

What is so wrong when we are saying that we (the AMSAT-DL members and BOD) want to build and fly another "AMSAT P3-E" rather than a CubeSat?

Should we scrap P3-E for the sake of another CubeSat??

Neither does the AMSAT-DL BOD nor does our membership condemn or disapprove CubeSats.

In the past years we had CubeSat team from German Universities coming to our Symposium. We have even given advice to some of them or help *if wanted*. We also attended a critical design review of SwissCube, etc.. I was personally at the CubeSat laboratory of the University of Tokyo a couple of years ago to see some of their first CubeSats and discuss some ideas with the Students and their Professor.

We have simply decided to concentrate our efforts to what is more important for our community.

If you would have listen *carefuly* and not blinded by rage to what I have said during the AMSAT-UK Colloquium, you would not make repeatedly such statements...

Peter DB2OS President AMSAT-DL _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

Whatever the politics or attitudes involved, I think it is possible to view the situation more optimistically.

We all know that in today's climate a HEO flight will entail either a huge donation campaign or a free ride. If both AMSAT-NA and AMSAT-DL were chasing these funds, we would lose the opportunities that FOX is offering in Cubesat design, and we'd certainly never raise the money necessary for HEO. As it is, I think -DL is doing a great job positioning themselves within the Euro context, but obviously there are difficult economic headwinds for them to overcome.

I suppose we can all agree that the SDX on ARISSAT and about to be flown on the FOXES will be an important technology whatever the orbit of a future amateur communication satellite. In many ways, the advantages of SDX are even more profound in HEO; indeed, if I remember correctly, it was first conceived for Eagle, a HEO bird.

Thus if ITAR relaxes somewhat, AMSAT-NA's know-how in SDX can assist a future HEO project in countries like India, where a future HEO launch subsidized by the government is still possible. (And if it doesn't, AMSAT-NA can still partner with cubesat projects within the US, a sizable number.)

I suspect the misunderstanding below comes from two meanings of the word 'cubesat', a confusion that I've noticed several times in the last couple of weeks. Most accurately defined, cubesat is a physical format and cheap launch system. However, because until now most satellites in the cubesat format have not had a communications component, we amateurs have tended to consider them 'telemetry and control' satellites, omitting the communications component which we all enjoy.

If, with reference to this latter definition, you were to say 'most amateurs aren't interested in cubesats', you'd probably be right. (Though I'm among those who find them fascinating.) However, the goal of Fox-and-Friends (sorry, I've been avoiding making that joke for a while now) is to provide Echo-quality communications. If you say 'most amateurs aren't interested in cubesats' with reference to those capabilities, I think you'd be quite wrong: who would stipulate that the satellite must be big, heavy and expensive to launch in order to have fun communicating with a neighboring country through it?

I hope nobody thinks I've misrepresented their ideas. I just think there is far more that unites us than divides, especially with the amazing opportunities that are on the way.

73, VE9QRP

Bruce

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 12:56 AM, Stefan Wagener wageners@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Peter,

Thanks for responding. I am amazed by your reaction to a simple post. Calling it "crude, false, blinded by rage" is quite a statement. But hey, you have every right to your opinion!

Now then, please help me and others understand your comments you made at AMSAT-UK (listed below):

"The amateur community in general is not interested in Cubesats, "I know some of you might not like to hear that "It might sound like a high nose attitude, but it is life "Those that have done P3 satellites have no interest in Cubesats

If those statements, which by the way come directly from the AMSAT-UK video of your presentation (available online) are made by the president of AMSAT-DL at an international meeting, I certainly do not call this an endorsement but rather a denouncement of AMSAT-DL's interest in cubesats.

If you call this "crude, false and blinded by rage"...  I am not sure what your talking about and it certainly does not help or aid in the discussion.

The simple basic fact is that AMSAT-DL under your leadership is not building, designing or planning any CubeSat projects (as far as I know). Now, please prove me wrong. I would love to support (financially) an AMSAT-DL Cubesat mission.

Stefan VE4NSA (DG1GWS)

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Peter Guelzow peter.guelzow@kourou.de wrote:

...

On 08.12.2011 16:17, Stefan Wagener wrote:

...

very simple, politics.

AMSAT-DL's  leadership has openly denouced Cubesats. So two of the biggest AMSATs either can't or don't want to. Talk about a pathetic situation for our community.

Stefan VE4NSA

I don't know what kind of problem you have and why you make such crude and false presences.

What is so wrong when we are saying that we (the AMSAT-DL members and BOD) want to build and fly another "AMSAT P3-E" rather than a CubeSat?

Should we scrap P3-E for the sake of another CubeSat??

Neither does the AMSAT-DL BOD nor does our membership condemn or disapprove CubeSats.

In the past years we had CubeSat team from German Universities coming to our Symposium. We have even given advice to some of them or help *if wanted*. We also attended a critical design review of SwissCube, etc.. I was personally at the CubeSat laboratory of the University of Tokyo a couple of years ago to see some of their first CubeSats and discuss some ideas with the Students and their Professor.

We have simply decided to concentrate our efforts to what is more important for our community.

If you would have listen *carefuly* and not blinded by rage to what I have said during the AMSAT-UK Colloquium, you would not make repeatedly such statements...

Peter DB2OS President AMSAT-DL _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

---

Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

Fair enough,

No permanent damage done. I certainly respect the decisions made by AMSAT-DL to focus on P3E. It's a great satellite! Let's have us go back to building and launching satellites, the big ones and the small ones. I believe we are all on the same page and the more diverse the satellites are the better for all of us.

Good luck with P3E!

Stefan

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Peter Guelzow peter.guelzow@kourou.de wrote:

Hi Stefan and all,

First of all, English is not my mother language. Please apologize..

Also I'm not a politician who thinks twice about what he is saying, in particular if you have to give a talk under time pressure and not in you native language. This is also "life".. I have to live with it..

So it might be that I could be wrongly interpreted, in particular if someone already has a strong bias in another direction.. there is always room for false interpretations based on your own attitude.

In my translation book "to denounce so" (denunciate the CubeSat community) is a very crude word,  in particular if used in an false accusation which was made.

People have been killed because of this in the past!!

So I felt it appropriate to reply in the way I did..

If I misinterpreted your words and you did not mean it that way, I can only apologize for saying you were “crude” and “blinded by rage” in your interpretation of what I have said (or not said)...

Unfortunately you ignored the rest of my Statements.

On 09.12.2011 05:56, Stefan Wagener wrote:

Now then, please help me and others understand your comments you made at AMSAT-UK (listed below): "The amateur community in general is not interested in Cubesats, "I know some of you might not like to hear that "It might sound like a high nose attitude, but it is life "Those that have done P3 satellites have no interest in Cubesats If those statements, which by the way come directly from the AMSAT-UK video of your presentation

I do not read anywhere that I or AMSAT-DL is denouncing the CubeSats (or the CubeSat community) ??

I can not speak for the whole amateur community in general, but only for the AMSAT-DL membership and a lot of them had the luck to experiences satellites like P3-B (AO-10), P3-C (AO-13) and P3-D AO-40).

What is so wrong with our membership favoring another P3-E over a CubeSat?

Who was it who called those P3-E supporters being from or living in the past century and of high nosed attitude?

Our membership is favor in finishing P3-E and getting it launched.  Thus we are concentrating in getting enough funding to finish and launch it.  We even have to go “out of the ordinary” ways to achieve this goal and beyond. This is not easy, we never told it would be easy.. I agree, we could have chosen an simpler way.

One of the good things of Amateur Radio is it's so-called Ham Spirit and the many facets our hobby has.

So why not let one group doing THIS and the other doing THAT !?!?

If someone within the AMSAT-DL community comes up with a good idea, if he thinks can raise money for it and if he is willing to actively work on it, why should I or the AMSAT-DL membership refuse him?

Well, I suggest to read my previous mail without the mentioned words, so that I don't have to repeat it again and again..

Sorry for the rest of you folks... "Ich habe fertig..." I hope to have some better news soon :-)

73s Peter DB2OS