Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 179

4 Jun 2012

      Just checked again and actually I have HI confirmed on 6 and I worked that 
ZF before on 6, no QSL.
KHP
-----Original Message----- 
From: amsat-bb-request@amsat.org
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2012 3:00 PM
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 179
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Icom Power Cord (Clint Bradford)
   2. A great suggestion (Thomas Doyle)
   3. 1K grids (Bruce)
   4. Re: full duplex w/ 2 HT's (Ronald Nutter)
   5. Re: full duplex w/ 2 HT's (Greg D)
   6. Re: A great suggestion (Clint Bradford)
   7. Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations (Stefan Wagener)
   8. Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations (i8cvs)
   9. Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations
      (Jari Koivurinne)
  10. Re: full duplex w/ 2 HT's (Andrew Glasbrenner)
  11. nitinol wire vs steel tape (Nick Pugh)
  12. Re: full duplex w/ 2 HT's (Dobarrows)
  13. Re: [CubeSat] nitinol wire vs steel tape (chantal cappelletti)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 12:57:42 -0700
From: Clint Bradford clintbrad4d@earthlink.net
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Icom Power Cord
Message-ID: 095A1B02-67B6-40A6-AE56-2B533CEF27D9@earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I believe the IC-910 also uses the IC-OPC-657A power cord - if that helps in 
your searching.
Clint K6LCS
...
...
... IC-821 ...
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 15:59:58 -0500
From: Thomas Doyle tomdoyle1948@gmail.com
To: AMSAT-BB@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] A great suggestion
Message-ID:
CAHnRQRKmTZgvrezjAEPOu=KW2QQmeD07=sAh_nE5+q+TbhANfQ@mail.gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
A great suggestion was made for a simple addition to the
program written for demos and education.
You can now add your own images to the little slide show that takes
place in the lower right hand portion of the screen. This is a good
way to personalize your presentation by including images that
are of specific interest to your group or add images that for one
reason or another are not included in the program.
If any group or organization would like an image added to the gallery
and/or included with the program distribution just send me your request
in an email with the image attached and I will try to include it. If any
registered trademark or copyright issues are involved with the image
simply add a line or two to your request authorizing use of the image
in this application.
The updated version of the program, information on how to add your
own images and a little gallery of images to try out is on the
web site.
http://www.tomdoyle.org/simplesatlookdown
Have Fun - 73 W9KE Tom Doyle
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 14:31:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bruce kk5do@arrl.net
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] 1K grids
Message-ID:
1338759062.77954.YahooMailMobile@web180015.mail.gq1.yahoo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Congrats to Jerry, K5OE. He just submitted his VUCC upgrade to 1,000 grids 
today, actually 1,008 but who&#39;s counting.
It was an easy set of cards to check. About 30 from a bunch of hams and 100 
or so grids from Yuri. Not a bad haul. and... I have never worked Yuri on 
satellite.
73...bruce
Sent from my iPhone
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 16:17:07 -0500
From: Ronald Nutter ron.nutter@networkref.com
To: Robert Coppock robertinorbit@webtv.net
Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: full duplex w/ 2 HT's
Message-ID: 4FCBD453.3000401@networkref.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Robert:
I have used a duplexer on the UHF side of my satellite ops for several
years.  I find that some radios have more of a desense problem than
others.  Here is a link to my website where I briefly talk about what I
do on portable ops and using what is referred to as a Mode J filter -
http://www.ka4kyi.com/satellite_gear/misc_equipment/
Ron Nutter
KA4KYI
AMSAT Area Coordinator for Missouri
On 6/2/12 11:33 AM, Robert Coppock wrote:
...
hola,   i am trying to determine the best way to work full duplex on the 
birds with 2 HT's or radios.   i cannot find any info so far on the web. 
my concern is to keep the transmit power out of the receive radio, i guess 
basically the difference between a diplexer and duplexer. since i am 
efficient (lazy) i thought i would just look for suggestions here while i 
am checking google also.    what do i need, di/du/ plexer, and what is the 
correct wiring scheme ?  i will be using the arrow antenna without the 
built in duplexer, from the 2 feeds (vhf/uhf)  and 2 HT's for now.  my 
picture of it so far, is to wire the vhf radio direct to the vhf feed port 
on the arrow, and have the uhf port on the arrow come into a duplexer, 
with the duplexer uhf port going to the uhf radio, and the duplexer vhf 
port terminated into a 50 ohm dummy load.   also, any suggestions of 
specific duplexers would be appreciated. i think i started on this project 
a few years ago, but never got around to get!
ti!
...
ng it all together. grazie mille,   Robert   k f 0 g    cn81   in the 
woodwork, literally, 
shasta/klamath national forests.
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
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.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 19:45:36 -0700
From: Greg D ko6th.greg@gmail.com
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: full duplex w/ 2 HT's
Message-ID: 4FCC2150.6050608@gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
So, all the on-line information seems to point to this solution -
putting a diplexer (filter) on the 70cm side to tap off and absorb the
incoming 2m signal. Isn't there also a design where one puts a filter on
the 2m side, to tap off and absorb the 70 cm (3rd harmonic of 2m) signal?
I would think that any (reasonable) 70cm receiver would have enough
rejection for a signal so far out of band, but the in-band 3rd harmonic
can only be taken care of at its source. At least, I think that's the logic.
Is there anything worthy about the other design, or is the most common
problem that our HTs can't possibly deal with a strong 2m signal on the
70cm side because of their "DC to Daylight" receivers?
I've been on the mode-J birds without much of a problem with this sort
of desense, though I did have a lot of trouble on AO-40 with reflected
RF when aiming through a big oak tree behind the house. The 70cm uplink
was interfering with the 13cm downlink, and I was pretty sure at the
time that it was a 3rd harmonic sort of problem.
Just curious,
Greg KO6TH
Ronald Nutter wrote:
...
Robert:
I have used a duplexer on the UHF side of my satellite ops for several
years. I find that some radios have more of a desense problem than
others. Here is a link to my website where I briefly talk about what I
do on portable ops and using what is referred to as a Mode J filter -
http://www.ka4kyi.com/satellite_gear/misc_equipment/
Ron Nutter
KA4KYI
AMSAT Area Coordinator for Missouri
On 6/2/12 11:33 AM, Robert Coppock wrote:
...
hola, i am trying to determine the best way to work full duplex on
the birds with 2 HT's or radios. i cannot find any info so far on the
web. my concern is to keep the transmit power out of the receive
radio, i guess basically the difference between a diplexer and
duplexer. since i am efficient (lazy) i thought i would just look for
suggestions here while i am checking google also. what do i need,
di/du/ plexer, and what is the correct wiring scheme ? i will be
using the arrow antenna without the built in duplexer, from the 2
feeds (vhf/uhf) and 2 HT's for now. my picture of it so far, is to
wire the vhf radio direct to the vhf feed port on the arrow, and have
the uhf port on the arrow come into a duplexer, with the duplexer uhf
port going to the uhf radio, and the duplexer vhf port terminated
into a 50 ohm dummy load. also, any suggestions of specific duplexers
would be appreciated. i think i started on this project a few years
ago, but never got around to get!
ti!
...
ng it all together. grazie mille, Robert k f 0 g cn81 in the
woodwork, literally, shasta/klamath national forests.
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
.

Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 20:27:33 -0700
From: Clint Bradford clintbradford@mac.com
To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: A great suggestion
Message-ID: 65DC0D43-E6E0-441C-A8FA-8E9792B44E24@mac.com
Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Brilliant! Great program ... accurate tracking ... simple and elegant - 
GREAT work, Tom.
Clint Bradford K6LCS
http://www.work-sat.com
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 02:26:20 -0500
From: Stefan Wagener wageners@gmail.com
To: i8cvs domenico.i8cvs@tin.it
Cc: Amsat - BBs amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations
Message-ID:
CAKu8kHCN5PQZmbDjYeqWnZcarjVi2g-qRiwueQ=uKYSt-pkPfw@mail.gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Thanks folks,
That's a very helpful and constructive discussion. It will certainly allow
for better assessment of the feasibility, options and limitations.
Stefan, VE4NSA
On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 8:54 PM, i8cvs domenico.i8cvs@tin.it wrote:
...
Hi Peter, DB2OS
I was reading the document in particular point 2.2.2
Communication and 2.2.3 but in my opinion the Radio
Hams are off side because everyting has been already
designed and in my opinion there is no room available
on the Lander for a Moon-Earth experimental communication
transponder in our L band and S band because our antennas
are too big.
Since the main 7.2 and 8.5 GHz X band High Gain Antennas
of the Lander are oriented toward the Earth in a fixed position
to compensate the pointing for libration probably only a 5 watt
pep and a circularly polarized horn on our 10.5 GHz should be
possible.
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Guelzow" peter.guelzow@kourou.de
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 12:57 AM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations
Hi together,
Please also have a look at this document:
http://wsn.spaceflight.esa.int/docs/lunarlander/LunarLander_EIDA_CDI_230512.
pdf
in particular see point 2.2.2 Communication and 2.2.3:
"Visibility of the Earth from the landing site imposes the following
constraint:
? communications shall only be possible within a 13.7 day (TBC) window
each month, and shall depend on the availability of the ground station."
further:
"the mean power available for an individual payload is expected not to
exceed 20W"
73s Peter DB2OS
On 03.06.2012 00:29, Peter Guelzow wrote:
...
Check also this discussion from James Miller, G3RUH:
              http://www.amsat.org/amsat/articles/g3ruh/110.html

73s Peter, DB2OS

Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 10:01:14 +0200
From: "i8cvs" domenico.i8cvs@tin.it
To: "Stefan Wagener" wageners@gmail.com
Cc: Amsat - BBs amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations
Message-ID: 000001cd4228$79df1300$0401a8c0@b3o7f1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Hi Stefan VE4NSA, Peter DB2OS and folks on BB
It should be very nice to have a transponder on the Lunar Lander operating 
into the X/K band 10,5 GHz Uplink and 24 GHz downlink. As on AO40 the 
antennas are very small and probably there is room for a transponder.
For a good feasibility and assesment with ESA it would be very important to 
have also a 24 GHz Beacon relaying to us TLM data concerning some primary 
ESA experiments.
Just my idea.
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Stefan Wagener
  To: i8cvs
  Cc: Peter Guelzow ; Amsat - BBs
  Sent: Monday, June 04, 2012 9:26 AM
  Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations
Thanks folks,
That's a very helpful and constructive discussion. It will certainly allow 
for better assessment of the feasibility, options and limitations.
Stefan, VE4NSA
On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 8:54 PM, i8cvs domenico.i8cvs@tin.it wrote:
Hi Peter, DB2OS
I was reading the document in particular point 2.2.2
    Communication and 2.2.3 but in my opinion the Radio
    Hams are off side because everyting has been already
    designed and in my opinion there is no room available
    on the Lander for a Moon-Earth experimental communication
    transponder in our L band and S band because our antennas
    are too big.
Since the main 7.2 and 8.5 GHz X band High Gain Antennas
    of the Lander are oriented toward the Earth in a fixed position
    to compensate the pointing for libration probably only a 5 watt
    pep and a circularly polarized horn on our 10.5 GHz should be
    possible.
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
----- Original Message -----
    From: "Peter Guelzow" peter.guelzow@kourou.de
    To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
    Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 12:57 AM
    Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations
Hi together,
Please also have a look at this document:
http://wsn.spaceflight.esa.int/docs/lunarlander/LunarLander_EIDA_CDI_230512.
    pdf
in particular see point 2.2.2 Communication and 2.2.3:
"Visibility of the Earth from the landing site imposes the following
    constraint:
    ? communications shall only be possible within a 13.7 day (TBC) window
    each month, and shall depend on the availability of the ground station."
further:
"the mean power available for an individual payload is expected not to
    exceed 20W"
73s Peter DB2OS
On 03.06.2012 00:29, Peter Guelzow wrote:
> Check also this discussion from James Miller, G3RUH:
    >
    >                   http://www.amsat.org/amsat/articles/g3ruh/110.html
    >
    >
    > 73s Peter, DB2OS
_______________________________________________
    Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
    Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite 
program!
    Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 11:32:38 +0300
From: "Jari Koivurinne" jari.koivurinne@aina.net
To: "i8cvs" domenico.i8cvs@tin.it
Cc: Amsat - BBs amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations
Message-ID:
e4cf25caf059daa81574d170077e930e.squirrel@webmail.aina.net
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Hi all
There is nothing much to do with 20W mean power. Just a 5W pep beacon...
-jari oh3uw
...
Hi Stefan VE4NSA, Peter DB2OS and folks on BB
It should be very nice to have a transponder on the Lunar Lander operating
into the X/K band 10,5 GHz Uplink and 24 GHz downlink. As on AO40 the 
antennas
are very small and probably there is room for a transponder.
For a good feasibility and assesment with ESA it would be very important 
to
have also a 24 GHz Beacon relaying to us TLM data concerning some primary 
ESA
experiments.
Just my idea.
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 06:01:21 -0400
From: Andrew Glasbrenner glasbrenner@mindspring.com
To: Greg D ko6th.greg@gmail.com
Cc: "amsat-bb@amsat.org" amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: full duplex w/ 2 HT's
Message-ID: 75438E63-EE7F-4C7E-A981-E41774EE5A15@mindspring.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Usually the diplexer as a filter is only needed to keep the 2m tx from 
overloading a 70cm preamp. For a two radio setup with no preamp, it usually 
isn't needed at all.
73, Drew KO4MA
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 3, 2012, at 10:45 PM, Greg D ko6th.greg@gmail.com wrote:
...
So, all the on-line information seems to point to this solution - putting 
a diplexer (filter) on the 70cm side to tap off and absorb the incoming 2m 
signal. Isn't there also a design where one puts a filter on the 2m side, 
to tap off and absorb the 70 cm (3rd harmonic of 2m) signal?
I would think that any (reasonable) 70cm receiver would have enough 
rejection for a signal so far out of band, but the in-band 3rd harmonic 
can only be taken care of at its source. At least, I think that's the 
logic.
Is there anything worthy about the other design, or is the most common 
problem that our HTs can't possibly deal with a strong 2m signal on the 
70cm side because of their "DC to Daylight" receivers?
I've been on the mode-J birds without much of a problem with this sort of 
desense, though I did have a lot of trouble on AO-40 with reflected RF 
when aiming through a big oak tree behind the house. The 70cm uplink was 
interfering with the 13cm downlink, and I was pretty sure at the time that 
it was a 3rd harmonic sort of problem.
Just curious,
Greg KO6TH
Ronald Nutter wrote:
...
Robert:
I have used a duplexer on the UHF side of my satellite ops for several 
years. I find that some radios have more of a desense problem than 
others. Here is a link to my website where I briefly talk about what I do 
on portable ops and using what is referred to as a Mode J filter - 
http://www.ka4kyi.com/satellite_gear/misc_equipment/
Ron Nutter
KA4KYI
AMSAT Area Coordinator for Missouri
On 6/2/12 11:33 AM, Robert Coppock wrote:
...
hola, i am trying to determine the best way to work full duplex on the 
birds with 2 HT's or radios. i cannot find any info so far on the web. 
my concern is to keep the transmit power out of the receive radio, i 
guess basically the difference between a diplexer and duplexer. since i 
am efficient (lazy) i thought i would just look for suggestions here 
while i am checking google also. what do i need, di/du/ plexer, and what 
is the correct wiring scheme ? i will be using the arrow antenna without 
the built in duplexer, from the 2 feeds (vhf/uhf) and 2 HT's for now. my 
picture of it so far, is to wire the vhf radio direct to the vhf feed 
port on the arrow, and have the uhf port on the arrow come into a 
duplexer, with the duplexer uhf port going to the uhf radio, and the 
duplexer vhf port terminated into a 50 ohm dummy load. also, any 
suggestions of specific duplexers would be appreciated. i think i 
started on this project a few years ago, but never got around to get!
ti!
...
ng it all together. grazie mille, Robert k f 0 g cn81 in the woodwork, 
literally, shasta/klamath national forests.
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite 
program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
.

Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite 
program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 05:47:29 -0500
From: "Nick Pugh" quadpugh@bellsouth.net
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org, CubeSat@cubesat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] nitinol wire vs steel tape
Message-ID: 095b01cd423f$70bfe710$523fb530$@net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Does anyone on the list know if there is any trade off using nitinol  wire
over steel tape for antennas on cube sats?
Thanks
nick
Office   337 593 8700
Cell      337 258 2527
Helping UL become a world Class Engineering  and Educational School
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 11:53:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dobarrows dobarrows@aol.com
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: full duplex w/ 2 HT's
Message-ID: 8CF108141285A4D-134C-12EB6@webmail-m052.sysops.aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
My portable setup using an arrow antenna doesn't use a diplexor or duplexor.
With the setup for 2m uplink, I connect my VX5R to the two meter driven 
element with a piece of RG-8X.
I connect my Icom IC R10 to the 432 mhz driven element with another piece of 
RG-8X.  Just turn the radios on,
adjust the frequencies, and wave the antenna around until you hear the 
satellite on the receive radio.  When I transmit and I can hear my signal in 
the IC-R10 I know that I may be heard.  If I hear someone else in the 
downlink, I stop transmitting and wait for another chance
Now note that my IC R10 is not a second HT, but just a receiver.  You should 
be able to swap in a second HT for the IC R10 with no problem.
Most of the time, I use a better setup by inserting a Down East Microwave 
preamp between the antenna and the IC R10.  The preamp improves reception on 
the downlink considerably.  By using a receive only radio with the pre amp, 
I don't have to worry about accidently transmitting on 432 and burning up 
the pre amp.  I run the preamp with two six volt lantern batteries in 
series.
When working a pass, I start with the receiver in usb mode and tuned about 
10 mhz higher than the published downlink frequency.  This helps me zero in 
on the satellite.  When the signal gets better (the squawking noise 
listening to a FM signal with usb setting gets loud) I switch the receiver 
to FM and gradually tune down frequency to keep up with the doppler.  I 
usually don't touch the transmit frequency on the VX 5R.  I just keep it on 
the published downlink frequency for the whole pass.
73, W8IJ
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 18:07:32 +0200
From: chantal cappelletti chantal.cappelletti@gmail.com
To: Nick Pugh quadpugh@bellsouth.net
Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org, CubeSat@cubesat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: [CubeSat] nitinol wire vs steel tape
Message-ID:
CAERGK4esKyX0nVSnQkectrUMc8WzGt5yM=bB+sEwws3yDZaicA@mail.gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Dear Nick.
we have tried to use the Nitinol for our CubeSat but for our
experience it is better to use the steel tape.
If you want to have more details please contact us:
gauss.group@gmail.com
Thanks,
Chantal
2012/6/4 Nick Pugh quadpugh@bellsouth.net:
...
Does anyone on the list know if there is any trade off using nitinol ?wire
over steel tape for antennas on cube sats?
Thanks
nick
Office?? 337 593 8700
Cell????? 337 258 2527
Helping UL become a world Class Engineering ?and Educational School

CubeSat mailing list
CubeSat@cubesat.org
http://lists.cubesat.org/mailman/listinfo/cubesat
-- 
Chantal Cappelletti, PhD
G.A.U.S.S. coordinator
ITALY : +39-0688346436
? ? ? ? ? ? +393336200333 ?(cell)
? ? ? ? ? ? G.A.U.S.S.- Gruppo di Astrodinamica
? ? ? ? ? ? via Salaria 851,
? ? ? ? ? ? 00138 ROMA

USA :?? 001-606-783-9597 (office)
? ? ? ? ?? Space Science Center
? ? ? ? ?? Morehead State University
? ? ? ? ?? 200A Martindale Dr.
? ? ? ? ?? Morehead, Kentucky 40351

------------------------------

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Sent via amsat-bb@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
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End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 179
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