NASA's American Student Moon Orbiter...
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=25839 http://asmo.arc.nasa.gov/
Wouldn't it be fun to have a transponder on this! ;-)
Probably not. Would it not spend a significant amount of it's time behind the moon where you can't see it?
Dave hartzell wrote:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=25839 http://asmo.arc.nasa.gov/
Wouldn't it be fun to have a transponder on this! ;-) _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
When the Apollo orbited the Moon it was behind and out of contact about 20-minutes per orbit. Ed - KL7UW
At 12:45 PM 7/2/2008, Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote:
Probably not. Would it not spend a significant amount of it's time behind the moon where you can't see it?
Dave hartzell wrote:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=25839 http://asmo.arc.nasa.gov/
Wouldn't it be fun to have a transponder on this! ;-) _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
-- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Nigel A. Gunn. G8IFF W8IFF (was KC8NHF) 59 Beadlemead, Milton Keynes, MK6 4HF, England. 07951079089 OR 1865 El Camino Drive, Xenia, OH 45385-1115, USA 937 825 5032 e-mail nigel@ngunn.net www http://www.ngunn.net Member of ARRL, GQRP #11396, QRPARCI #11644, SOC #548, Flying Pig #385, Dayton ARA #2128, AMSAT-NA AMSAT-UK, LM-1691, MKARS, <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
--- On Wed, 2/7/08, Dave hartzell hartzell@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=25839 http://asmo.arc.nasa.gov/
Wouldn't it be fun to have a transponder on this! ;-)
Fun yes, but dare I say it, a waste of precious Volunteer resources.
All lunar orbits are inherently unstable and will impact after a couple of years. The link budget requirements would not attract a mass user base.
I suspect the number of Technically Capable volunteers is already being thinly stretched in trying to provide both the primary objective Phase-IV Lite (funded by Federal Government dollars) and the secondary objective the Eagle HEO.
73 Trevor M5AKA
__________________________________________________________ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html
As far as I can recall we are pursuing both Eagle and the P4 opportunity equally, concentrating on common elements until the details are ironed out. Neither has been identified as a primary or secondary objective.
I agree a package on a lunar orbiter would be neat, but also that it is not the best use of what volunteers we have. We need more folks to step up to do things, AND we need to make better use of them when they do.
73, Drew KO4MA
----- Original Message ----- From: "Trevor" m5aka@yahoo.co.uk To: "AMSAT BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 4:53 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: NASA's American Student Moon Orbiter...
--- On Wed, 2/7/08, Dave hartzell hartzell@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=25839 http://asmo.arc.nasa.gov/
Wouldn't it be fun to have a transponder on this! ;-)
Fun yes, but dare I say it, a waste of precious Volunteer resources.
All lunar orbits are inherently unstable and will impact after a couple of years. The link budget requirements would not attract a mass user base.
I suspect the number of Technically Capable volunteers is already being thinly stretched in trying to provide both the primary objective Phase-IV Lite (funded by Federal Government dollars) and the secondary objective the Eagle HEO.
73 Trevor M5AKA
__________________________________________________________Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
what would a sample average link budget be?
Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:
As far as I can recall we are pursuing both Eagle and the P4 opportunity equally, concentrating on common elements until the details are ironed out. Neither has been identified as a primary or secondary objective.
I agree a package on a lunar orbiter would be neat, but also that it is not the best use of what volunteers we have. We need more folks to step up to do things, AND we need to make better use of them when they do.
73, Drew KO4MA
----- Original Message ----- From: "Trevor" m5aka@yahoo.co.uk To: "AMSAT BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 4:53 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: NASA's American Student Moon Orbiter...
--- On Wed, 2/7/08, Dave hartzell hartzell@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=25839 http://asmo.arc.nasa.gov/
Wouldn't it be fun to have a transponder on this! ;-)
Fun yes, but dare I say it, a waste of precious Volunteer resources.
All lunar orbits are inherently unstable and will impact after a couple of years. The link budget requirements would not attract a mass user base.
I suspect the number of Technically Capable volunteers is already being thinly stretched in trying to provide both the primary objective Phase-IV Lite (funded by Federal Government dollars) and the secondary objective the Eagle HEO.
73 Trevor M5AKA
__________________________________________________________Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
The moon is roughly 360,000 to 400,000 km away. By comparison, AO-40 had a apogee of about 60,000km. At 2.4Ghz, that's about 16db difference each way. Put AO-40 at the moon, and if I'm doing this right, you'd need about 32 times the ground station antenna both coming and going to get with a few db. I'm gonna need a bigger rotor for sure! I'm sure smarter folks will check my math....
73, Drew KO4MA
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" nss@mwt.net To: "Andrew Glasbrenner" glasbrenner@mindspring.com Cc: "Trevor" m5aka@yahoo.co.uk; "AMSAT BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: NASA's American Student Moon Orbiter...
what would a sample average link budget be?
Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:
As far as I can recall we are pursuing both Eagle and the P4 opportunity equally, concentrating on common elements until the details are ironed out. Neither has been identified as a primary or secondary objective.
I agree a package on a lunar orbiter would be neat, but also that it is not the best use of what volunteers we have. We need more folks to step up to do things, AND we need to make better use of them when they do.
73, Drew KO4MA
----- Original Message ----- From: "Trevor" m5aka@yahoo.co.uk To: "AMSAT BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 4:53 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: NASA's American Student Moon Orbiter...
--- On Wed, 2/7/08, Dave hartzell hartzell@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=25839 http://asmo.arc.nasa.gov/
Wouldn't it be fun to have a transponder on this! ;-)
Fun yes, but dare I say it, a waste of precious Volunteer resources.
All lunar orbits are inherently unstable and will impact after a couple of years. The link budget requirements would not attract a mass user base.
I suspect the number of Technically Capable volunteers is already being thinly stretched in trying to provide both the primary objective Phase-IV Lite (funded by Federal Government dollars) and the secondary objective the Eagle HEO.
73 Trevor M5AKA
__________________________________________________________Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Drew-
Your math is feasible (e.g. too lazy to check it), but with advances in digital comms and personal computing, forward error correcting schemes can result in a huge "digital gain" of 6, 12 even 20+ dB towards the link budgets.
That is of course if you don't want to do SSB voice... ;-)
73,
Dave AF6KD (ex n0tgd)
On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner glasbrenner@mindspring.com wrote:
The moon is roughly 360,000 to 400,000 km away. By comparison, AO-40 had a apogee of about 60,000km. At 2.4Ghz, that's about 16db difference each way. Put AO-40 at the moon, and if I'm doing this right, you'd need about 32 times the ground station antenna both coming and going to get with a few db. I'm gonna need a bigger rotor for sure! I'm sure smarter folks will check my math....
73, Drew KO4MA
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" nss@mwt.net To: "Andrew Glasbrenner" glasbrenner@mindspring.com Cc: "Trevor" m5aka@yahoo.co.uk; "AMSAT BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: NASA's American Student Moon Orbiter...
what would a sample average link budget be?
Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:
As far as I can recall we are pursuing both Eagle and the P4 opportunity equally, concentrating on common elements until the details are ironed out. Neither has been identified as a primary or secondary objective.
I agree a package on a lunar orbiter would be neat, but also that it is not the best use of what volunteers we have. We need more folks to step up to do things, AND we need to make better use of them when they do.
73, Drew KO4MA
----- Original Message ----- From: "Trevor" m5aka@yahoo.co.uk To: "AMSAT BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 4:53 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: NASA's American Student Moon Orbiter...
--- On Wed, 2/7/08, Dave hartzell hartzell@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=25839 http://asmo.arc.nasa.gov/
Wouldn't it be fun to have a transponder on this! ;-)
Fun yes, but dare I say it, a waste of precious Volunteer resources.
All lunar orbits are inherently unstable and will impact after a couple of years. The link budget requirements would not attract a mass user base.
I suspect the number of Technically Capable volunteers is already being thinly stretched in trying to provide both the primary objective Phase-IV Lite (funded by Federal Government dollars) and the secondary objective the Eagle HEO.
73 Trevor M5AKA
__________________________________________________________Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
At 08:28 PM 7/2/2008, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:
The moon is roughly 360,000 to 400,000 km away. By comparison, AO-40 had a apogee of about 60,000km. At 2.4Ghz, that's about 16db difference each way. Put AO-40 at the moon, and if I'm doing this right, you'd need about 32 times the ground station antenna both coming and going to get with a few db. I'm gonna need a bigger rotor for sure! I'm sure smarter folks will check my math....
7
Hi Drew,
Let me add a little about antenna size. You are correct, the path loss is around 16 dB higher each way. This is about 40 times higher path loss.
Antenna gain is proportional to area (ignoring efficiency) so to get 40 times the gain you would need a little more than 6 times the diameter for a dish antenna. So, if you could receive AO-40 on 2.4GHz with a 1 meter dish, you would need something around a 6 meter diameter dish to receive AO-40 if it were on the moon.
73, Tony AA2TX
At 12:42 PM 7/3/2008, Anthony Monteiro wrote:
Antenna gain is proportional to area (ignoring efficiency) so to get 40 times the gain you would need a little more than 6 times the diameter for a dish antenna. So, if you could receive AO-40 on 2.4GHz with a 1 meter dish, you would need something around a 6 meter diameter dish to receive AO-40 if it were on the moon.
But if, instead of SSB, you used a mode which was able to cope with a 16dB weaker signal (plenty of weak signal data modes to choose from), then the 1m dish would work.
73 de VK3JED http://vkradio.com
Hi Trevor,
All you say is true of course but there could be a possibility to provide a microwave tracking beacon that would be especially useful during the long ...maybe 15 month (depending on the type of propulsion eventually decided upon), cruise phase in addition to the period whilst in lunar orbit and help to populate our presently under-utilised uwave allocations..
And then if it had a really sensitive GPS receiver..as already demonstrated by AO40 out to 60+k kilometres, modulating the signal, it would be even better...sorry mission creep strikes again:)
cheers
Graham G3VZV
----- Original Message ----- From: "Trevor" m5aka@yahoo.co.uk To: "AMSAT BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 9:53 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: NASA's American Student Moon Orbiter...
--- On Wed, 2/7/08, Dave hartzell hartzell@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=25839 http://asmo.arc.nasa.gov/
Wouldn't it be fun to have a transponder on this! ;-)
Fun yes, but dare I say it, a waste of precious Volunteer resources.
All lunar orbits are inherently unstable and will impact after a couple of years. The link budget requirements would not attract a mass user base.
I suspect the number of Technically Capable volunteers is already being thinly stretched in trying to provide both the primary objective Phase-IV Lite (funded by Federal Government dollars) and the secondary objective the Eagle HEO.
73 Trevor M5AKA
__________________________________________________________Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Trevor,
At first I thought this could be a winner - then I read the solicitation details.
In para 4.1 NASA says" NOTE: NASA does not foresee providing direct funding to the universities or partners." and in para 4.2 "University Teams Would Provide
* Launch Opportunity including launch vehicle and integration, and insurance"
So I haven't found the good part yet.
I don't see why any University would go after this one unless they have really, really big bucks lying about.
What did I miss??
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
Trevor wrote:
--- On Wed, 2/7/08, Dave hartzell hartzell@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=25839 http://asmo.arc.nasa.gov/
Wouldn't it be fun to have a transponder on this! ;-)
Fun yes, but dare I say it, a waste of precious Volunteer resources.
All lunar orbits are inherently unstable and will impact after a couple of years. The link budget requirements would not attract a mass user base.
I suspect the number of Technically Capable volunteers is already being thinly stretched in trying to provide both the primary objective Phase-IV Lite (funded by Federal Government dollars) and the secondary objective the Eagle HEO.
73 Trevor M5AKA
__________________________________________________________Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Trevor m5aka@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Fun yes, but dare I say it, a waste of precious Volunteer resources.
Who said anything about volunteers?
All lunar orbits are inherently unstable and will impact after a couple of years. The link budget requirements would not attract a mass user base.
A couple of years is about all we get out of most satellites. The link budgets would be challenging, but doable, especially with low bit-rate data, like JT65 (moonbound with 50 watts on 2m). Remember, AMSAT-DL is shooting the the Mars orbiter!
Anyway, its probably still a pipe dream (but one can always dream).
73, Dave AF6KD (ex n0tgd)
Around this discussion, take a look on
http://www.die.uniroma1.it/esmo-urm/
ESA is working on the same direction, and some works are now done here, with some italian University. AMSAT Italy has posted a proposal in a meeting held in Rome, march 2007.
73, Paolo IW3QBN
participants (11)
-
Andrew Glasbrenner -
Anthony Monteiro -
Bill Ress -
Dave hartzell -
Edward Cole -
Graham Shirville -
Joe -
Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF -
P.Pitacco＠fmc.units.it -
Tony Langdon -
Trevor