Re: [amsat-bb] ORI receives half million dollar grant, and, it's only the first.
Wow! Sounds like you guys have done and are doing an awful lot for the hobby. My thanks to you. It appears there are resources out there if AMSAT is willing to do what's necessary to have access to them. I guess the question is what's that involve? Is it simply just going open source or is there more to it than that? Are there other stumbling blocks that they wouldn't be comfortable with for some reason?
73,
Michael, W4HIJ
Message: 2 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 22:41:39 -0700 From: Phil Karn karn@ka9q.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] ORI receives half million dollar grant, and it's only the first. Message-ID: 38f30c90-6874-b8bc-5855-9e27bbb3bf66@ka9q.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On 9/10/20 19:40, Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB wrote:
In the present time, people have grown to take the Internet a lot more seriously, and the world ran out of IPV4 addresses in their 32-bit space. We now have IPV6, which has a much larger address space, but IPV4 is still important. So, Brian and friends sold 3/4 of our addresses to Amazon for a lot of money, and formed a non-profit to manage it.
Correction: ARDC sold 1/4 (not 3/4) of its original IPv4 address block, 44.0.0.0/8. The part that was sold is 44.192.0.0/10, i.e., the top quarter, which had never been used on the "real" Internet though it had been used internally in some European ampr subnets.
ampr.org still has the bottom 3/4 of its original assignment: 44.0.0.0/9 and 44.128.0.0/10. Hams running IP are still able to use these two blocks.
The 44.0.0.0/8 block was originally obtained by Hank Magnuski, KA6M, in the early 1980s, literally for the cost of a phone call. It did not see much use until the mid 1980s when I began work on my KA9Q NOS TCP/IP package; at that time, Hank transferred control of the 44 block to me. Brian Kantor WB6CYT and Wally Lindstruth WA6JPR soon joined in its management, with Brian running much of the infrastructure out of the University of California San Diego (UCSD) where he spent his entire career.
NONE of us had any idea whatsoever that these numbers would someday have serious monetary value. We did amprnet simply because we really believed in the potential of the Internet and, as hams, felt ham radio was the perfect place to experiment with the Internet protocols. (Some of you have fond memories of those days, as do I.) We thought it was a cool idea that would find good uses, but we had no idea that the Internet over radio would change the world as much as it did. It certainly changed my life; in 1991 I moved from New Jersey to San Diego to accept a position with Qualcomm largely on the basis of my work with TCP/IP over ham radio, and Brian and I became very close friends.
In the early 2010s, Brian obtained Hank's and my consent to transfer formal ownership of this address block to a nonprofit he created for the purpose: Amateur Radio Digital Communications, or ARDC. (Wally Lindstruth had passed away by this time). In 2018 and 2019, with full knowledge and consent of the ARDC board, Brian negotiated the sale of the 44.192.0.0/10 block with the proceeds to ARDC to be used for a wide range of charitable grants to benefit ham radio, the Internet, and especially the intersection of the two and their role in STEM education. Unfortunately, the nature of the IP address market and the size of the sale necessitated secrecy, which none of us liked. A nondisclosure agreement still limits what we can publicly say about the terms of the sale, though some facts can be readily determined from public sources such as the "whois" database and IP address market data.
Brian passed away unexpectedly in November 2019 and I've taken over as president and chair of ARDC. Hank continues to serve on the grant review committee chaired by John Hays, K7VE.
Since ARDC is an IRS 501(c)(3) nonprofit foundation, it is required to file detailed tax returns (990 forms) with the IRS; this will happen very shortly. By law, nonprofit tax returns are publicly available.
Phil Karn, KA9Q
ARDC President & Chair
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 8:29 AM Michael Tondee via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Is it simply just going open source or is there more to it than that? Are there other stumbling blocks that they wouldn't be comfortable with for some reason?
:-)
We've sort of just had this discussion, and yes AMSAT is very uncomfortable. Running the project as clear of ITAR and EAR is a requirement if you are going to put software out under an Open Source license and all of your other technical documentation under a Creative Commons license, and we have told you how to do that but people seem to be dubious so far. This also means the project has to be free of NDAs, at least for the funded part, and if you remember from past discussion the board found it really offensive that the new directors wanted to know what AMSAT's NDAs were and were inclined to get rid of them wherever possible.
Essentially, you can copy what we are doing at ORI.
But now, AMSAT is going to do that. AMSAT will not go Open Source because it is the right thing to do. AMSAT will not go Open Source because it allows them to collaborate with the international AMSAT organizations, LibreSpace, and ORI. AMSAT will not go Open Source because it provides the maximum benefit to Radio Amateurs. AMSAT will not go Open Source because it allows them to dispense with the pain of ITAR and EAR compliance. NO! AMSAT will go Open Source because THEY ARE BEING OFFERED MONEY TO DO SO, and THAT is the AMERICAN WAY!
:-)
OK, excuse me for having some fun with you. But there is an element of truth in that.
Thanks
Bruce
On 2020-09-11 12:04, Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB wrote:
OK, excuse me for having some fun with you. But there is an element of truth in that.
Bruce,
I speak only for myself and on behalf of none.
Irrespective of the bazillions that ARDC might be giving your organization, but I and I suspect many potential volunteers are being turned off by your incessant berating and criticizing of AMSAT (NA).
I've got a fixed number of hours to volunteer, and I prefer to give those to an organization that isn't trying to undermine another. Live and let live, and "vote with your feet" as a friend used to say.
ORI is not something I want to be associated with, at this point.
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
Zach,
The purpose is not to berate AMSAT but to make a point - that AMSAT can meet the requirements of ARDC and potentially have money for launches from a source that is actually giving out money on that scale. But the cost for AMSAT is running the project ITAR and EAR free, and producing the software as Open Source and the design documents under creative commons.
Now, most people would say "Sure, let's do that, it's worth it. As it happens, people here have just soundly rejected that plan.
At this point, AMSAT needs to make the decision to run some projects in Open Source mode, or turn its back on the potential for million-dollar checks. That is the point.
Thanks
Bruce
On 9/11/20 16:52, Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB wrote:
But the cost for AMSAT is running the project ITAR and EAR free, and producing the software as Open Source and the design documents under creative commons.
Now, most people would say "Sure, let's do that, it's worth it. As it
Bruce, I hesitate to jump in here but I want to ask the others here a sincere question:
Is AMSAT's hesitancy to embrace open project development due to a continuing fear of export controls, or are there other reasons? Are there ways to further resolve this fear and/or any other concerns about going open?
Again, this is a completely honest question; I really don't know the answer. Having some experience myself with the export control process, I know how illogical, irrational and opaque the whole thing can be, and I fully understand how it can play with everyone's minds.
So despite ORI's success in its ITAR commodity jurisdiction request I can't fault AMSAT for still being hesitant to jump in with both feet. It will probably take time for this development to be better understood by everyone and for people to become comfortable with it. i also see nothing to prevent AMSAT from filing its own CJRs for projects that it proposes to do in the open. The more favorable rulings we get, the better it will be for everyone.
ARDC certainly doesn't want to fund a project only to get the principals in legal trouble. On the other hand, our policy of only funding open development projects is non-negotiable. We certainly hope that AMSAT can find a way to move forward with projects that can be developed under open terms and we are as eager to evaluate their proposals as from anyone else, and as we already have from ORI.
73, Phil
Zach,
no you summed it up for myself too.
Peter, 2M0SQL
On Sat, 12 Sep 2020, 00:30 Zach Metzinger via AMSAT-BB, amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
On 2020-09-11 12:04, Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB wrote:
OK, excuse me for having some fun with you. But there is an element of truth in that.
Bruce,
I speak only for myself and on behalf of none.
Irrespective of the bazillions that ARDC might be giving your organization, but I and I suspect many potential volunteers are being turned off by your incessant berating and criticizing of AMSAT (NA).
I've got a fixed number of hours to volunteer, and I prefer to give those to an organization that isn't trying to undermine another. Live and let live, and "vote with your feet" as a friend used to say.
ORI is not something I want to be associated with, at this point.
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 04:46:19PM +0100, Peter Goodhall (2M0SQL) via AMSAT-BB wrote:
Zach,
no you summed it up for myself too.
Peter, 2M0SQL
On Sat, 12 Sep 2020, 00:30 Zach Metzinger via AMSAT-BB, amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
On 2020-09-11 12:04, Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB wrote:
OK, excuse me for having some fun with you. But there is an element of truth in that.
Bruce,
I speak only for myself and on behalf of none.
Irrespective of the bazillions that ARDC might be giving your organization, but I and I suspect many potential volunteers are being turned off by your incessant berating and criticizing of AMSAT (NA).
I've got a fixed number of hours to volunteer, and I prefer to give those to an organization that isn't trying to undermine another. Live and let live, and "vote with your feet" as a friend used to say.
It goes both ways. All the bickering at the ORI guys is turning me off from AMSAT. I have at least one article in the journal, I helped fix one article on the older website and I've handed out AMSAT material at one hamfest but all you guys whinging and calling ORI folks names makes me not want to be associated with you folks.
I think I can speak for everyone here that I am so looking forward to when all this unpleasant stuff is off of the BB.
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
73, Diane VA3DB
On 09/12/20 11:15, Diane Bruce wrote:
I think I can speak for everyone here that I am so looking forward to when all this unpleasant stuff is off of the BB.
Diane,
On this, we agree completely.
--- Zach N0ZGO
(FreeBSD-er since sometime in the late 90's)
AMSAT needs to have presentation to the ARDC public meeting happening this morning. Over one hundred others representing various organizations have signed up. The board of ARDC and the Grant election committee will be there to make a presentation and to answer questions.
The processes, laws to follow, structures needed have taken two years to put into place and it has all been retarded by COVID-19 and 2020 madness.
ARRL Foundation, YASME, FAR, TAPR, ARISS, ORI etc have all received "existence changing " grants for activities they have undertaken. Scholarships done by some of these organizations have doubled. ARISS and TAPR have had projects funded that didn't require begging cheap hams for funding.
Listen to the presentations and ask questions.
If AMSAT isn't signed up, ask why. I will be a moderator of the Q and A.
Bob N4HY ARDC Grant Committee
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 10:40 AM Michael Tondee via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Wow! Sounds like you guys have done and are doing an awful lot for the hobby. My thanks to you. It appears there are resources out there if AMSAT is willing to do what's necessary to have access to them. I guess the question is what's that involve? Is it simply just going open source or is there more to it than that? Are there other stumbling blocks that they wouldn't be comfortable with for some reason?
73,
Michael, W4HIJ
Message: 2 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 22:41:39 -0700 From: Phil Karn karn@ka9q.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] ORI receives half million dollar grant, and it's only the first. Message-ID: 38f30c90-6874-b8bc-5855-9e27bbb3bf66@ka9q.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On 9/10/20 19:40, Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB wrote:
In the present time, people have grown to take the Internet a lot more seriously, and the world ran out of IPV4 addresses in their 32-bit
space.
We now have IPV6, which has a much larger address space, but IPV4 is
still
important. So, Brian and friends sold 3/4 of our addresses to Amazon
for a
lot of money, and formed a non-profit to manage it.
Correction: ARDC sold 1/4 (not 3/4) of its original IPv4 address block, 44.0.0.0/8. The part that was sold is 44.192.0.0/10, i.e., the top quarter, which had never been used on the "real" Internet though it had been used internally in some European ampr subnets.
ampr.org still has the bottom 3/4 of its original assignment: 44.0.0.0/9 and 44.128.0.0/10. Hams running IP are still able to use these two
blocks.
The 44.0.0.0/8 block was originally obtained by Hank Magnuski, KA6M, in the early 1980s, literally for the cost of a phone call. It did not see much use until the mid 1980s when I began work on my KA9Q NOS TCP/IP package; at that time, Hank transferred control of the 44 block to me. Brian Kantor WB6CYT and Wally Lindstruth WA6JPR soon joined in its management, with Brian running much of the infrastructure out of the University of California San Diego (UCSD) where he spent his entire
career.
NONE of us had any idea whatsoever that these numbers would someday have serious monetary value. We did amprnet simply because we really believed in the potential of the Internet and, as hams, felt ham radio was the perfect place to experiment with the Internet protocols. (Some of you have fond memories of those days, as do I.) We thought it was a cool idea that would find good uses, but we had no idea that the Internet over radio would change the world as much as it did. It certainly changed my life; in 1991 I moved from New Jersey to San Diego to accept a position with Qualcomm largely on the basis of my work with TCP/IP over ham radio, and Brian and I became very close friends.
In the early 2010s, Brian obtained Hank's and my consent to transfer formal ownership of this address block to a nonprofit he created for the purpose: Amateur Radio Digital Communications, or ARDC. (Wally Lindstruth had passed away by this time). In 2018 and 2019, with full knowledge and consent of the ARDC board, Brian negotiated the sale of the 44.192.0.0/10 block with the proceeds to ARDC to be used for a wide range of charitable grants to benefit ham radio, the Internet, and especially the intersection of the two and their role in STEM education. Unfortunately, the nature of the IP address market and the size of the sale necessitated secrecy, which none of us liked. A nondisclosure agreement still limits what we can publicly say about the terms of the sale, though some facts can be readily determined from public sources such as the "whois" database and IP address market data.
Brian passed away unexpectedly in November 2019 and I've taken over as president and chair of ARDC. Hank continues to serve on the grant review committee chaired by John Hays, K7VE.
Since ARDC is an IRS 501(c)(3) nonprofit foundation, it is required to file detailed tax returns (990 forms) with the IRS; this will happen very shortly. By law, nonprofit tax returns are publicly available.
Phil Karn, KA9Q
ARDC President & Chair
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Bob,
AMSAT would have been pleased to send a representative to this meeting. Unfortunately, AMSAT's Senior Officers were not aware or informed that this meeting was taking place.
After doing a search on the ARDC website, I do see that there's a mention of a "Community Meeting" taking place today, but it does not list any details about the purpose of that meeting.
AMSAT's projects have been made possible through the incredible generosity of our members and donors. Outside of ARISS, we have generally not pursued grants for our satellite projects. However, we recognize that the availability of grant funds, from ARDC and others, certainly increases the possibilities of what we can do. For this reason, the Board of Directors created the position of Vice President - Development in 2019 to expand AMSAT's fundraising efforts, including the pursuit of grant funding.
73,
Paul Stoetzer, N8HM Executive Vice President Radio Amateur Satellite Corporation (AMSAT)
On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 6:50 AM Robert McGwier via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
AMSAT needs to have presentation to the ARDC public meeting happening this morning. Over one hundred others representing various organizations have signed up. The board of ARDC and the Grant election committee will be there to make a presentation and to answer questions.
The processes, laws to follow, structures needed have taken two years to put into place and it has all been retarded by COVID-19 and 2020 madness.
ARRL Foundation, YASME, FAR, TAPR, ARISS, ORI etc have all received "existence changing " grants for activities they have undertaken. Scholarships done by some of these organizations have doubled. ARISS and TAPR have had projects funded that didn't require begging cheap hams for funding.
Listen to the presentations and ask questions.
If AMSAT isn't signed up, ask why. I will be a moderator of the Q and A.
Bob N4HY ARDC Grant Committee
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 10:40 AM Michael Tondee via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Wow! Sounds like you guys have done and are doing an awful lot for the hobby. My thanks to you. It appears there are resources out there if AMSAT is willing to do what's necessary to have access to them. I guess the question is what's that involve? Is it simply just going open source or is there more to it than that? Are there other stumbling blocks that they wouldn't be comfortable with for some reason?
73,
Michael, W4HIJ
Message: 2 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 22:41:39 -0700 From: Phil Karn karn@ka9q.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] ORI receives half million dollar grant, and it's only the first. Message-ID: 38f30c90-6874-b8bc-5855-9e27bbb3bf66@ka9q.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On 9/10/20 19:40, Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB wrote:
In the present time, people have grown to take the Internet a lot more seriously, and the world ran out of IPV4 addresses in their 32-bit
space.
We now have IPV6, which has a much larger address space, but IPV4 is
still
important. So, Brian and friends sold 3/4 of our addresses to Amazon
for a
lot of money, and formed a non-profit to manage it.
Correction: ARDC sold 1/4 (not 3/4) of its original IPv4 address block, 44.0.0.0/8. The part that was sold is 44.192.0.0/10, i.e., the top quarter, which had never been used on the "real" Internet though it had been used internally in some European ampr subnets.
ampr.org still has the bottom 3/4 of its original assignment:
44.0.0.0/9
and 44.128.0.0/10. Hams running IP are still able to use these two
blocks.
The 44.0.0.0/8 block was originally obtained by Hank Magnuski, KA6M,
in
the early 1980s, literally for the cost of a phone call. It did not see much use until the mid 1980s when I began work on my KA9Q NOS TCP/IP package; at that time, Hank transferred control of the 44 block to me. Brian Kantor WB6CYT and Wally Lindstruth WA6JPR soon joined in its management, with Brian running much of the infrastructure out of the University of California San Diego (UCSD) where he spent his entire
career.
NONE of us had any idea whatsoever that these numbers would someday
have
serious monetary value. We did amprnet simply because we really
believed
in the potential of the Internet and, as hams, felt ham radio was the perfect place to experiment with the Internet protocols. (Some of you have fond memories of those days, as do I.) We thought it was a cool idea that would find good uses, but we had no idea that the Internet over radio would change the world as much as it did. It certainly changed my life; in 1991 I moved from New Jersey to San Diego to accept a position with Qualcomm largely on the basis of my work with TCP/IP over ham radio, and Brian and I became very close friends.
In the early 2010s, Brian obtained Hank's and my consent to transfer formal ownership of this address block to a nonprofit he created for
the
purpose: Amateur Radio Digital Communications, or ARDC. (Wally Lindstruth had passed away by this time). In 2018 and 2019, with full knowledge and consent of the ARDC board, Brian negotiated the sale of the 44.192.0.0/10 block with the proceeds to ARDC to be used for a
wide
range of charitable grants to benefit ham radio, the Internet, and especially the intersection of the two and their role in STEM
education.
Unfortunately, the nature of the IP address market and the size of the sale necessitated secrecy, which none of us liked. A nondisclosure agreement still limits what we can publicly say about the terms of the sale, though some facts can be readily determined from public sources such as the "whois" database and IP address market data.
Brian passed away unexpectedly in November 2019 and I've taken over as president and chair of ARDC. Hank continues to serve on the grant
review
committee chaired by John Hays, K7VE.
Since ARDC is an IRS 501(c)(3) nonprofit foundation, it is required to file detailed tax returns (990 forms) with the IRS; this will happen very shortly. By law, nonprofit tax returns are publicly available.
Phil Karn, KA9Q
ARDC President & Chair
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On 10/10/20 06:47, Paul Stoetzer via AMSAT-BB wrote:
Bob,
AMSAT would have been pleased to send a representative to this meeting. Unfortunately, AMSAT's Senior Officers were not aware or informed that this meeting was taking place.
This was just the first of what we expect will be an ongoing series of meetings, so we didn't advertise it very widely. Our initial notice went to the "net 44" (TCP/IP over amateur radio) group that gave rise to ARDC. Much of the meeting reviewed the results of a survey that also initially targeted the net 44 group, and based on the responses and comments we will update our surveys and solicit responses and comments from a much wider audience.
But I can summarize some of the salient points we made yesterday.
The NDA with Amazon that covered the sale of our surplus IP addresses required us to keep the exact dollar amounts private until we were legally required to disclose them in our annual tax filings, audit and financial reports. These have just been made public and are available online through the California Attorney General's website (since ARDC is incorporated in California). You can also get some background information through our (independently written) Wikipedia article.
The bottom line is that the sale netted us about US $108M, and we expect to grant at least US $5 million *per year* on an ongoing basis, depending on how our investments perform, to a wide variety of Internet and amateur radio digital communication projects. To date we have made about $2.5 million in grants, so we're only getting started.
73, Phil, KA9Q
ARDC President
participants (8)
-
Bruce Perens -
Diane Bruce -
Michael Tondee -
Paul Stoetzer -
Peter Goodhall (2M0SQL) -
Phil Karn -
Robert McGwier -
Zach Metzinger