Over on eHam.net today ...
Ok, so I go check out the Amsat website. Yawn. I look through their mission statement and history sections. Yawn.
Seems that they have not updated their website for awhile. I mean, they still are talking about their "up and coming" phase 3-D satellite! (c.1996) Hmmm, that was what, 13 years ago? And they want me to join, and give them *money*? What a joke.
Ok, now that I have picked myself off of the floor from laughing so hard, here is the question. Why should I (or anyone else) give these clowns money if they cannot even update their web site. Comeon, everyone knows that 3-D was a flop, except maybe AMSAT.
The originators of the OSCAR program were cutting edge amateurs that were rivaling the commercial telecomunications satellite industry. They were trying to place their 5th bird in a geostationary orbit, but launch vehicle failure prevented that. Now all that Amsat seems to be able to do is (in the words of a certain late USSR dictator, paraphrased) is launch grapfruit sized microsats.
So I never like to criticize something without some suggestions for improving the situation. Here is my idea... Why not a group of American amateur radio people get together that have nothing to do with the incompetence of AMSAT, and actually build an OSCAR 5 for geo- synch orbit? If it could be done thirty years ago, it can be done now. No need to have a "global" effort involving millions of dollars and amateurs from thirty countries building a thousand pound bird. Lets do this like the original OSCAR folks did, keep it simple(r), and let the politicos at AMSAT continue to try to justify their existence while some honest to God hams get the bird built and lofted. With today's improved solar cells and hardened electronics, if we could get a bird in a Clark slot, it would last for quite awhile, and actually provide a (non-digital) communication service to the amateur radio community.
Best and 73,
Joe KB0TXC
Clint Bradford, K6LCS / KAF3359 909-241-7666
Wasn't Oscar 5 launched by/for Australia in the mid 1960s? Doesn't the front page of the Amsat web site carry details of the Japanese sats launched 2 days ago? Where's this bloke been looking?
Clint Bradford wrote:
Over on eHam.net today ...
Ok, so I go check out the Amsat website. Yawn. I look through their mission statement and history sections. Yawn.
Seems that they have not updated their website for awhile. I mean, they still are talking about their "up and coming" phase 3-D satellite! (c.1996) Hmmm, that was what, 13 years ago? And they want me to join, and give them *money*? What a joke.
Ok, now that I have picked myself off of the floor from laughing so hard, here is the question. Why should I (or anyone else) give these clowns money if they cannot even update their web site. Comeon, everyone knows that 3-D was a flop, except maybe AMSAT.
The originators of the OSCAR program were cutting edge amateurs that were rivaling the commercial telecomunications satellite industry. They were trying to place their 5th bird in a geostationary orbit, but launch vehicle failure prevented that. Now all that Amsat seems to be able to do is (in the words of a certain late USSR dictator, paraphrased) is launch grapfruit sized microsats.
So I never like to criticize something without some suggestions for improving the situation. Here is my idea... Why not a group of American amateur radio people get together that have nothing to do with the incompetence of AMSAT, and actually build an OSCAR 5 for geo- synch orbit? If it could be done thirty years ago, it can be done now. No need to have a "global" effort involving millions of dollars and amateurs from thirty countries building a thousand pound bird. Lets do this like the original OSCAR folks did, keep it simple(r), and let the politicos at AMSAT continue to try to justify their existence while some honest to God hams get the bird built and lofted. With today's improved solar cells and hardened electronics, if we could get a bird in a Clark slot, it would last for quite awhile, and actually provide a (non-digital) communication service to the amateur radio community.
Best and 73,
Joe KB0TXC
Clint Bradford, K6LCS / KAF3359 909-241-7666
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.13/1914 - Release Date: 1/24/2009 8:40 PM
During the last 2 decades of the last century ESA was providing space on specific launches at heavily-discounted prices and a global effort was still required to raise the money. Now everyone has to pay the full rate so AMSAT-DL and AMSAT-NA are looking for outside sources of money. If you have several million dollars the problem could be solved.
Cubesats in 800 km orbits have much lower launch costs. However, the vast majority of members told AMSAT that they didn't want more LEO satellites after AO-51. Perhaps small is better.
The AO-40 entry that I see on the AMSAT web site (http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/satellites/satInfo.php?satID=15&returl=sa...) seems to be accurate.
73,
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "Clint Bradford" clintbrad4d@earthlink.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 18:29 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Messageboard Post
Over on eHam.net today ...
Ok, so I go check out the Amsat website. Yawn. I look through their mission statement and history sections. Yawn.
Seems that they have not updated their website for awhile. I mean, they still are talking about their "up and coming" phase 3-D satellite! (c.1996) Hmmm, that was what, 13 years ago? And they want me to join, and give them *money*? What a joke.
Ok, now that I have picked myself off of the floor from laughing so hard, here is the question. Why should I (or anyone else) give these clowns money if they cannot even update their web site. Comeon, everyone knows that 3-D was a flop, except maybe AMSAT.
The originators of the OSCAR program were cutting edge amateurs that were rivaling the commercial telecomunications satellite industry. They were trying to place their 5th bird in a geostationary orbit, but launch vehicle failure prevented that. Now all that Amsat seems to be able to do is (in the words of a certain late USSR dictator, paraphrased) is launch grapfruit sized microsats.
So I never like to criticize something without some suggestions for improving the situation. Here is my idea... Why not a group of American amateur radio people get together that have nothing to do with the incompetence of AMSAT, and actually build an OSCAR 5 for geo- synch orbit? If it could be done thirty years ago, it can be done now. No need to have a "global" effort involving millions of dollars and amateurs from thirty countries building a thousand pound bird. Lets do this like the original OSCAR folks did, keep it simple(r), and let the politicos at AMSAT continue to try to justify their existence while some honest to God hams get the bird built and lofted. With today's improved solar cells and hardened electronics, if we could get a bird in a Clark slot, it would last for quite awhile, and actually provide a (non-digital) communication service to the amateur radio community.
Best and 73,
Joe KB0TXC
Clint Bradford, K6LCS / KAF3359 909-241-7666
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
AMSAT is a volunteer organisation and with that obviously comes limitations concerning Member's time and effort.
Over the last two weeks I have tried on four separate occasions to complete and send the volunteer form that is on the AMSAT NA website - each time I have received an error message at the point of sending the form and each time I have completed the bug report form and checked the box that asks if I want an acknowledgement of my report.
So far, nothing heard.
So AMSAT needs help but the help mechanism does not work and there is not enough help to fix the help page!
Classic "catch 22"
David KG4ZLB/M0ZLB www.kg4zlb.com
John B. Stephensen wrote:
During the last 2 decades of the last century ESA was providing space on specific launches at heavily-discounted prices and a global effort was still required to raise the money. Now everyone has to pay the full rate so AMSAT-DL and AMSAT-NA are looking for outside sources of money. If you have several million dollars the problem could be solved.
Cubesats in 800 km orbits have much lower launch costs. However, the vast majority of members told AMSAT that they didn't want more LEO satellites after AO-51. Perhaps small is better.
The AO-40 entry that I see on the AMSAT web site (http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/satellites/satInfo.php?satID=15&returl=sa...) seems to be accurate.
73,
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "Clint Bradford" clintbrad4d@earthlink.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 18:29 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Messageboard Post
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
The reliable "help mechanism" is to phone Martha. She never fails.
David - KG4ZLB/MØZLB wrote:
AMSAT is a volunteer organisation and with that obviously comes limitations concerning Member's time and effort.
Over the last two weeks I have tried on four separate occasions to complete and send the volunteer form that is on the AMSAT NA website - each time I have received an error message at the point of sending the form and each time I have completed the bug report form and checked the box that asks if I want an acknowledgement of my report.
Phone Martha. Works every time.
David - KG4ZLB/MØZLB wrote:
Over the last two weeks I have tried on four separate occasions to complete and send the volunteer form that is on the AMSAT NA website - each time I have received an error message at the point of sending the form and each time I have completed the bug report form and checked the box that asks if I want an acknowledgement of my report.
My point is that the first portal a visitor sees is the website and if that doesn't work then gives more ammunition to those that post disparaging e-mails!
David KG4ZLB/M0ZLB www.kg4zlb.com
Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote:
Phone Martha. Works every time.
David - KG4ZLB/MØZLB wrote:
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
You are both right. AMSAT-NA is in dire need of someone to manage the website, and we also need volunteers for many, many other things. It sounds cliché, but the saying "We are AMSAT" is very true. I was upset with how the Echo Ops committee was being handled pre-launch, and look where it got me :-)
If anyone ever runs into a dead end or needs help with something AMSAT, getting on the phone with Martha is a sure fire way to find a solution. If she cannot do it, she will direct you to someone who can.
David, send me an email with what you might like to volunteer for, and I'll point you in the right direction.
73, Drew KO4MA ----- Original Message ----- From: "David - KG4ZLB/MØZLB" m0zlb@btinternet.com To: "Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF" nigel@ngunn.net Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 3:09 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Messageboard Post
My point is that the first portal a visitor sees is the website and if that doesn't work then gives more ammunition to those that post disparaging e-mails!
David KG4ZLB/M0ZLB www.kg4zlb.com
Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote:
Phone Martha. Works every time.
David - KG4ZLB/MØZLB wrote:
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Classic one webmaster problem. That's why things go stale.
Hint: if there's a need to keep timely information up to date, distribute the control of accessing and updating the information. Like for example a wiki or something that allows the community of experts to keep the wider public aware. Give keys to several active AMSAT members who can keep their sections up to date, rather than let one webmaster keep all the information up to date.
The result we want is Net-centric operations: right information to the right people at the right time to make the right decisions. The design solution to get that result is remove the one-webmaster problem and replace it with a distributed mechanism to allow mutliple experts keeping time sensitive sections up to date.
$0.02
-jeff
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:
You are both right. AMSAT-NA is in dire need of someone to manage the website, and we also need volunteers for many, many other things. It sounds cliché, but the saying "We are AMSAT" is very true. I was upset with how the Echo Ops committee was being handled pre-launch, and look where it got me :-)
If anyone ever runs into a dead end or needs help with something AMSAT, getting on the phone with Martha is a sure fire way to find a solution. If she cannot do it, she will direct you to someone who can.
David, send me an email with what you might like to volunteer for, and I'll point you in the right direction.
73, Drew KO4MA ----- Original Message ----- From: "David - KG4ZLB/MØZLB" m0zlb@btinternet.com To: "Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF" nigel@ngunn.net Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 3:09 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Messageboard Post
My point is that the first portal a visitor sees is the website and if that doesn't work then gives more ammunition to those that post disparaging e-mails!
David KG4ZLB/M0ZLB www.kg4zlb.com
Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote:
Phone Martha. Works every time.
David - KG4ZLB/MØZLB wrote:
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Here's my 0.02 worth.
I agree that having one individual, no matter how well they excel at their job, being placed (or finding themselves placed) in charge of a large project, or organization; is doomed to failure.
I disagree with those who keep insisting that without HEOs, there's no point in getting on the air. Sure many people spent a lot of time, energy and money to buy equipment which they no have a regular use for. No one is to blame about the satellite's failure. You made the decision to buy the equipment. Those things happen.
Next, to those who constantly complain about the lack of HEOs, why don't you try some of the LEOs? I've been having a great time with them for the last few months. I have made many friends, and have helped several hams who have heard me on the sats, but needed a hand with software, hardware, etc. I have emailed many hams who call CQ on the FM birds, yet can't hear the downlink, and so far they are all thrilled to hear that someone heard them; and I have attempted to steer them to what they need for their station. Those of you with that experience, who don't get on the air, are failing the amateur service by not offering your experience to those who are starting out; thus you are also contributing to the potential demise of AMSAT-NA.
Those of you with the equipment that's just sitting there unused, are contributing to the potential loss of the frequencies which we have available to use. Turn on your radio and listen to FO-29 or VO-52, you are lucky to hear one qso on there. That is such a shame, when you consider the relatively large bandwidth available there. If you listen on 20 meters you will hear lots of PSK31 signals. Why aren't we using that mode on the satellites?
I didn't find it dull when I spoke to Mike, an astronaut inside the space shuttle three times last week. Three times because there weren't that many hams on there to talk to him. We even spoke about how they get news feeds, video, and internet on board. Another ham talked about football with him.
You say we don't need any more LEOs? Well then I guess you haven't heard a recent pass of AO-51. Once you do, you will change your mind. There also appears to be a lot of interest in the satellites which were recently launched - yet as far as I know, those only send beacons or telemetry.
If none of this changes your mind, then consider selling your equipment, at a reasonable cost to someone who will put it to use. It 's not easy finding used satellite antennas, mast mounted preamps; and even more difficult to find Yaesu G5400/G5500s. Get rid of the dust, get some money back, and let someone else enjoy the gear.
Now on the other hand; I submitted my payment to AMSAT 2 weeks ago. I requested the free key for SATPC32. I haven't heard a thing back. I emailed Martha a week ago, and I still haven't heard anything back from her. Not a complaint; but new members should be welcomed, that's one way of getting additional members; and keeping existing members.
73 de W4AS Sebastian AMSAT # ?
On Jan 25, 2009, at 3:55 PM, Jeff Wandling W7BRS wrote:
Classic one webmaster problem. That's why things go stale.
Hint: if there's a need to keep timely information up to date, distribute the control of accessing and updating the information. Like for example a wiki or something that allows the community of experts to keep the wider public aware. Give keys to several active AMSAT members who can keep their sections up to date, rather than let one webmaster keep all the information up to date.
The result we want is Net-centric operations: right information to the right people at the right time to make the right decisions. The design solution to get that result is remove the one-webmaster problem and replace it with a distributed mechanism to allow mutliple experts keeping time sensitive sections up to date.
$0.02
-jeff
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:
You are both right. AMSAT-NA is in dire need of someone to manage the website, and we also need volunteers for many, many other things. It sounds cliché, but the saying "We are AMSAT" is very true. I was upset with how the Echo Ops committee was being handled pre-launch, and look where it got me :-)
If anyone ever runs into a dead end or needs help with something AMSAT, getting on the phone with Martha is a sure fire way to find a solution. If she cannot do it, she will direct you to someone who can.
David, send me an email with what you might like to volunteer for, and I'll point you in the right direction.
73, Drew KO4MA ----- Original Message ----- From: "David - KG4ZLB/MØZLB" m0zlb@btinternet.com To: "Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF" nigel@ngunn.net Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 3:09 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Messageboard Post
My point is that the first portal a visitor sees is the website and if that doesn't work then gives more ammunition to those that post disparaging e-mails!
David KG4ZLB/M0ZLB www.kg4zlb.com
Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF wrote:
Phone Martha. Works every time.
Sebastian,
Why would you get a "free key" for SatPC32?
I paid for mine on the AMSAT website on Thursday morning and the "key" was e-mailed to me by Martha a couple of hours later!
Are they giving them away now? :-\
David KG4ZLB/M0ZLB www.kg4zlb.com
Sebastian wrote:
Now on the other hand; I submitted my payment to AMSAT 2 weeks ago. I requested the free key for SATPC32. I haven't heard a thing back. I emailed Martha a week ago, and I still haven't heard anything back from her. Not a complaint; but new members should be welcomed, that's one way of getting additional members; and keeping existing members.
73 de W4AS Sebastian AMSAT # ?
You are correct, that was my mistake. There is a list of items you can get without additional cost to become a member, however to get a key for SATPC32 the membership fee is more expensive. I stand corrected.
73 de W4AS Sebastian
On Jan 25, 2009, at 8:05 PM, David - KG4ZLB/MØZLB wrote:
Sebastian,
Why would you get a "free key" for SatPC32?
I paid for mine on the AMSAT website on Thursday morning and the "key" was e-mailed to me by Martha a couple of hours later!
Are they giving them away now? :-\
David KG4ZLB/M0ZLB www.kg4zlb.com
Sebastian wrote:
Now on the other hand; I submitted my payment to AMSAT 2 weeks ago. I requested the free key for SATPC32. I haven't heard a thing back. I emailed Martha a week ago, and I still haven't heard anything back from her. Not a complaint; but new members should be welcomed, that's one way of getting additional members; and keeping existing members.
73 de W4AS Sebastian AMSAT # ?
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On Sun, 2009-01-25 at 21:24 -0500, Sebastian wrote:
You are correct, that was my mistake. There is a list of items you can get without additional cost to become a member, however to get a key for SATPC32 the membership fee is more expensive. I stand corrected.
So an email to say "You're a muppet, you need to pay for a SATPC32 key" would have been courteous.
Gordon
At the bottom of the current AMSAT website is a link to
http://www.amsat.org/amsat/AmsatHomeOld.html
From where you can see lots of old archived information.
- If you really want to
73
Graham G3VZV
On Sun, 2009-01-25 at 19:33 +0000, John B. Stephensen wrote:
ats in 800 km orbits have much lower launch costs. However, the vast majority of members told AMSAT that they didn't want more LEO satellites after AO-51. Perhaps small is better.
For the kind of money that cubesats cost, you could launch about a dozen of them instead of one geosynchronous one. That way you'd *always* have a cubesat or two visible. Add some sat-to-sat comms, and you're in business.
Gordon
Gordon... YOU add some sat-to-sat comms and WE will be in business.
Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: Add some sat-to-sat comms, and you're in
business.
Sat-to-sat comms is hard because there's not space for gain antennas. However, sat to ground to sat would work.
73,
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ" gordonjcp@gjcp.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 21:28 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Messageboard Post
On Sun, 2009-01-25 at 19:33 +0000, John B. Stephensen wrote:
ats in 800 km orbits have much lower launch costs. However, the vast majority of members told AMSAT that they didn't want more LEO satellites after AO-51. Perhaps small is better.
For the kind of money that cubesats cost, you could launch about a dozen of them instead of one geosynchronous one. That way you'd *always* have a cubesat or two visible. Add some sat-to-sat comms, and you're in business.
Gordon
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
For the kind of money that cubesats cost, you could launch about a dozen of them instead of one geosynchronous one.
Just to illustrate how insanely expensive GEO/GTO launches are, it's more like 1 small GEO/GTO package launch= 200 cubesat launches.
73, Drew KO4MA
Now all that Amsat seems to be able to do is ... is launch grapfruit sized microsats.
Ever looked at an Ipod or cell phone or anything else modern? What's wrong with grapefruit size, especially if it can save volunteer's hard won donations?
With today's improved solar cells...
Which cost about $300 per single cell, or maybe $10,000 per square foot.
and hardened electronics...
Which can cost about $500 to $1000 per chip...
it would last for quite awhile, and actually provide a (non-digital) communication service to the amateur radio community.
But it will serve amateurs wourldwide and and so it makes sense to organize internationally to get it up there...
Bob, WB4APR
participants (10)
-
Andrew Glasbrenner -
Clint Bradford -
David - KG4ZLB/MØZLB -
Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ -
Graham Shirville -
Jeff Wandling W7BRS -
John B. Stephensen -
Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF -
Robert Bruninga -
Sebastian