The end of daytime HF?
I don't want to be an alarmist, but we need the Hams with the proper knowledge to get involved in this disturbing news.
The National Electric Code now requires electronics on every module of a solar array communicating via signalling on the DC power lines to assure EACH pair of panels can shut down independently. This is to make all possible faults never allow more than 80 volts anywhere in the system. This is effective 1 Jan 2019
This is the nail in the coffin of simple DC series string arrays which are the quietest systems and almost demands microinverters or optimizers on every panel. Refer to the QST article a few years ago about how disastrous optimizers are to RFI and HF operations with modules all over the roof..
Here is the Solar news: https://solarbuildermag.com/bos/nec-2017-module-level-solar-system-shutdown/
Also, what is going to happen to an array that has signaling all over it in the near field of HF?
Although you can avoid it by going solar before then, you may have problems when your neighbors go later.
I hate to be an alarmist but we all know what happens when ham radio and commercial systems are incompatible and even though Ham radio might be in the right, we are only 1 in 600 and no one is going to side with us.
We took on broadband over power and squelched that dumb idea, but now this has the potential for equal demise of Ham radio. It should be fixable, but we also know that there is high competition in the solar market and the modules that are made the cheapest will be popular and will likely not be adequately filtered.
Sorry for posting to the AMSAT-bb but it is the only HAM email reflector I subscribe to.
If nothing else, we need to find out what systems are terrible emitters and nip them in the bud. Maybe all it takes is driving by solar systems you see and turing on your AM radio on a weak signal channel and seeing if the background noise peaks near that home. But also it has individual peaks, so it might also be nice to tune around too find the max and then check the range. I find the noise can go hundreds of feet along the power lines....
You cant miss em... just sounds like a 60 Hz buzz on all the harmonics of the inverter switching frequency.
Bob WB4APR
I don't want to be a pessimist, but I think HF (and lower) is history anyway. If it's not this new breed of solar arrays, then it will be something else. Residential noise levels are up so high in many places already that HF is unworkable anyway. Even VHF is starting to suffer from increased noise levels. The only hope is that any commercial or government service using that particular part of the spectrum is affected, then the solutions are available before you know it. Sad but true.
73 de Hans
BX2ABT
On 05/04/2018 09:27 AM, Robert Bruninga wrote:
I don't want to be an alarmist, but we need the Hams with the proper knowledge to get involved in this disturbing news.
The National Electric Code now requires electronics on every module of a solar array communicating via signalling on the DC power lines to assure EACH pair of panels can shut down independently. This is to make all possible faults never allow more than 80 volts anywhere in the system. This is effective 1 Jan 2019
This is the nail in the coffin of simple DC series string arrays which are the quietest systems and almost demands microinverters or optimizers on every panel. Refer to the QST article a few years ago about how disastrous optimizers are to RFI and HF operations with modules all over the roof..
Here is the Solar news: https://solarbuildermag.com/bos/nec-2017-module-level-solar-system-shutdown/
Also, what is going to happen to an array that has signaling all over it in the near field of HF?
Although you can avoid it by going solar before then, you may have problems when your neighbors go later.
I hate to be an alarmist but we all know what happens when ham radio and commercial systems are incompatible and even though Ham radio might be in the right, we are only 1 in 600 and no one is going to side with us.
We took on broadband over power and squelched that dumb idea, but now this has the potential for equal demise of Ham radio. It should be fixable, but we also know that there is high competition in the solar market and the modules that are made the cheapest will be popular and will likely not be adequately filtered.
Sorry for posting to the AMSAT-bb but it is the only HAM email reflector I subscribe to.
If nothing else, we need to find out what systems are terrible emitters and nip them in the bud. Maybe all it takes is driving by solar systems you see and turing on your AM radio on a weak signal channel and seeing if the background noise peaks near that home. But also it has individual peaks, so it might also be nice to tune around too find the max and then check the range. I find the noise can go hundreds of feet along the power lines....
You cant miss em... just sounds like a 60 Hz buzz on all the harmonics of the inverter switching frequency.
Bob WB4APR _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Well, I'll have to see how my brand new solar install sounds once it's operational. The 28 panels with micro-inverters on each panel are installed, but not energized yet. Being sunny southern California, there is lots of solar around here - the nearest being two doors east of me. However I'm not active on HF, so I have no basis for how the noise floor has changed. Since I have a couple weeks before my system can go on line (main panel replacement required), I will hook up an HF radio to something and try to get some before and after noise floor measurements.
Jim Walls K6CCC jim@k6ccc.org
On 05/04/2018 09:27 AM, Robert Bruninga wrote:
I don't want to be an alarmist, but we need the Hams with the proper knowledge to get involved in this disturbing news.
The National Electric Code now requires electronics on every module of a solar array communicating via signalling on the DC power lines to assure EACH pair of panels can shut down independently. This is to make all possible faults never allow more than 80 volts anywhere in the system. This is effective 1 Jan 2019
This is the nail in the coffin of simple DC series string arrays which are the quietest systems and almost demands microinverters or optimizers on every panel. Refer to the QST article a few years ago about how disastrous optimizers are to RFI and HF operations with modules all over the roof..
Here is the Solar news: https://solarbuildermag.com/bos/nec-2017-module-level-solar-system-shutdown/
Also, what is going to happen to an array that has signaling all over it in the near field of HF?
Although you can avoid it by going solar before then, you may have problems when your neighbors go later.
I hate to be an alarmist but we all know what happens when ham radio and commercial systems are incompatible and even though Ham radio might be in the right, we are only 1 in 600 and no one is going to side with us.
We took on broadband over power and squelched that dumb idea, but now this has the potential for equal demise of Ham radio. It should be fixable, but we also know that there is high competition in the solar market and the modules that are made the cheapest will be popular and will likely not be adequately filtered.
Sorry for posting to the AMSAT-bb but it is the only HAM email reflector I subscribe to.
If nothing else, we need to find out what systems are terrible emitters and nip them in the bud. Maybe all it takes is driving by solar systems you see and turing on your AM radio on a weak signal channel and seeing if the background noise peaks near that home. But also it has individual peaks, so it might also be nice to tune around too find the max and then check the range. I find the noise can go hundreds of feet along the power lines....
You cant miss em... just sounds like a 60 Hz buzz on all the harmonics of the inverter switching frequency.
Bob WB4APR
Great. This is the kind of measured data we need.
And I do try to remember to tune in the AM band when I drive by a solar house, but the RFI on AM in my electric car is so high, it is impossible to tell whether it is comoing from the solar and power lines or my car itself (on AM).
I know I can hear my array every XX Khz up through 10 meters (I forget the increment) but since all of my HF dipoles have fallen, I don't have a good benchmark, and now my neighbor has solar too, so I cant just shut mine down for quiet. Fortunately, my AC disconnect is right by the kitchen door if I ever do get back on HF.
Bob
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org On Behalf Of jim@k6ccc.org Sent: Friday, May 04, 2018 12:53 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] The end of daytime HF?
Well, I'll have to see how my brand new solar install sounds once it's operational. The 28 panels with micro-inverters on each panel are installed, but not energized yet. Being sunny southern California, there is lots of solar around here - the nearest being two doors east of me. However I'm not active on HF, so I have no basis for how the noise floor has changed. Since I have a couple weeks before my system can go on line (main panel replacement required), I will hook up an HF radio to something and try to get some before and after noise floor measurements.
Jim Walls K6CCC jim@k6ccc.org
On 05/04/2018 09:27 AM, Robert Bruninga wrote:
I don't want to be an alarmist, but we need the Hams with the proper knowledge to get involved in this disturbing news.
The National Electric Code now requires electronics on every module of a solar array communicating via signalling on the DC power lines to assure EACH pair of panels can shut down independently. This is to make all possible faults never allow more than 80 volts anywhere in the
system.
This is effective 1 Jan 2019
This is the nail in the coffin of simple DC series string arrays which are the quietest systems and almost demands microinverters or optimizers on every panel. Refer to the QST article a few years ago about how disastrous optimizers are to RFI and HF operations with
modules all over the roof..
Here is the Solar news: https://solarbuildermag.com/bos/nec-2017-module-level-solar-system-shu tdown/
Also, what is going to happen to an array that has signaling all over it in the near field of HF?
Although you can avoid it by going solar before then, you may have problems when your neighbors go later.
I hate to be an alarmist but we all know what happens when ham radio and commercial systems are incompatible and even though Ham radio might be in the right, we are only 1 in 600 and no one is going to side
with us.
We took on broadband over power and squelched that dumb idea, but now this has the potential for equal demise of Ham radio. It should be fixable, but we also know that there is high competition in the solar market and the modules that are made the cheapest will be popular and will likely not be adequately filtered.
Sorry for posting to the AMSAT-bb but it is the only HAM email reflector I subscribe to.
If nothing else, we need to find out what systems are terrible emitters and nip them in the bud. Maybe all it takes is driving by solar systems you see and turing on your AM radio on a weak signal channel and seeing if the background noise peaks near that home. But also it has individual peaks, so it might also be nice to tune around too find the max and then check the range. I find the noise can go
hundreds of feet along the power lines....
You cant miss em... just sounds like a 60 Hz buzz on all the harmonics of the inverter switching frequency.
Bob WB4APR
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
All:
I have an ongoing RFI case with the solar panel manufacturer, Solar Edge. Their field engineer, Tom Simpson, has handled many RFI cases in the past so they are aware of the problem.
My case is on schedule for repair and Tom assures me that the RFI will be negligible once the proper RFI suppression methods are installed. The RFI emanates from a neighbors solar panel system about 150 feet from my home.
In my case, the noise began the day the system was installed so finding the source was easy. Knowing who the manufacturer was helped get the ball rolling. If that's not possible, file a complaint with the FCC and be persistent. Mike Gruber of the ARRL can assist: mgruber@arrl.org mailto:Tom.Simpson@solaredge.com
If you know of a Solar Edge system causing RFI, contact Tom at: Tom.Simpson@solaredge.com mailto:Tom.Simpson@solaredge.com Additional Contact Info: T.J. Simpson, Solar Edge Field Engineer Phone: 510-498-3262
Tony-Brock Fishers April 2016 QST article "Can Home Solar Power and Amateur Radio Coexist?” may help those who purchased a home system. He writes about Solar Edge products and the RFI suppression methods he used.
By the way, the noise has shown itself on VHF as well so it's not just HF.
Tony -K2MO
I've had solar panels with optimizers for 4 months and they definitely cause RFI on both HF and VHF. I think they are Solar Edge panels. I'll confirm the manufacturer and, if they are Solar Edge panels, I'll contact Mr. Simpson. I'll send a follow-up to this forum once I found out more.
By the way, I specifically asked the installer about RFI and he told me that he never heard any complaints about it. Selective listening?
Of course, I should've done my homework first, but maybe there's a way to make it work.
Steve AI9IN
On 2018-05-04 14:56, Tony wrote:
All:
I have an ongoing RFI case with the solar panel manufacturer, Solar Edge. Their field engineer, Tom Simpson, has handled many RFI cases in the past so they are aware of the problem.
My case is on schedule for repair and Tom assures me that the RFI will be negligible once the proper RFI suppression methods are installed. The RFI emanates from a neighbors solar panel system about 150 feet from my home.
In my case, the noise began the day the system was installed so finding the source was easy. Knowing who the manufacturer was helped get the ball rolling. If that's not possible, file a complaint with the FCC and be persistent. Mike Gruber of the ARRL can assist: mgruber@arrl.org mailto:Tom.Simpson@solaredge.com
If you know of a Solar Edge system causing RFI, contact Tom at: Tom.Simpson@solaredge.com mailto:Tom.Simpson@solaredge.com Additional Contact Info: T.J. Simpson, Solar Edge Field Engineer Phone: 510-498-3262
Tony-Brock Fishers April 2016 QST article "Can Home Solar Power and Amateur Radio Coexist?" may help those who purchased a home system. He writes about Solar Edge products and the RFI suppression methods he used.
By the way, the noise has shown itself on VHF as well so it's not just HF.
Tony -K2MO
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On 5/4/2018 4:02 PM, skristof@etczone.com wrote:
By the way, I specifically asked the installer about RFI and he told me that he never heard any complaints about it. Selective listening?
Solar City (the company who installed my my neighbors Solar Edge system) said the same thing. I later learned that there were several other cases pending. It may also be that some decide to live with the problem and not to do anything about it. With so many solar systems being installed, I find it hard to believe the problem isn't affecting a large number of hams.
Of course, I should've done my homework first, but maybe there's a way to make it work.
Contact Tony K1FP. He can guide you in the right direction. barockteer@aol.com
Tony -K2MO
participants (5)
-
Hans (BX2ABT) -
jim＠k6ccc.org -
Robert Bruninga -
skristof＠etczone.com -
Tony