Rocket Lab's definition of "sensible cost" is $10 million. That is indeed a bargain price for a dedicated HEO mission. Do we think that AMSAT could raise that amount of money in a sensible amount of time?
Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 10:28:36 PM EDT From: Wendy and Terry Osborne wandtosborne@gmail.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
With the recent success of Capstone and the Rocket Lab Photon spacecraft, it may be possible to put a transponder on a Photon mission to GEO at a sensible cost.
I may be pummeled for suggesting this to an enthusiastic community with many opinions. But if there are US and international hams able to cobble at least a million USD in the bank, they should consider buying test flights from any nanolauncher company where their payload would be the primary (and possibly the only payload) to orbit (Caveat Emptor, if it fails you dont get money back but you may get launch insurance coverage to recover damages).
After any sich launch, SmallSat EP can be engaged to gradually raise the orbit. A paper analysis that was developed using analytical geometry tools and Aerospace Corporation KnowledgeBase based upon the then hypothetical VAT thrusters being designed at GWU MpNL might be of interest, which I believe now was also covered by Jan King VK6GEY in a previous 2014 AMSAT HEO mission proposal. Many developments have happened since this paper was published, including space missions and even dual stage integrated EP VAT thruster configuration development.
Haque, Samudra E., Michael Keidar, and Taeyoung Lee. "Low-thrust orbital maneuver analysis for cubesat spacecraft with a micro-cathode arc thruster subsystem." 33rd International Electric Propulsion Conference. 2013.
Online free to read: http://electricrocket.org/IEPC/ujed2guj.pdf
BtW, to date several nanolauncher efforts have started and are "plodding" along the tech maturation stages of rocket flight.
One outfit I was associated with a decade ago was www.interorbitalsystems.com which at least has functional rockets systems being matured at a slow and steady pace.
They might not be everybody's cup of tea so others could also be contacted, I believe Scottish outfits are well on the way up up amd away, or at least the pictures indicate so.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S21 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone Get Outlook for Androidhttps://aka.ms/AAb9ysg ________________________________ From: Daniel Schultz n8fgv@usa.net Sent: Friday, August 12, 2022 9:42:37 AM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
Rocket Lab's definition of "sensible cost" is $10 million. That is indeed a bargain price for a dedicated HEO mission. Do we think that AMSAT could raise that amount of money in a sensible amount of time?
Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 10:28:36 PM EDT From: Wendy and Terry Osborne wandtosborne@gmail.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
With the recent success of Capstone and the Rocket Lab Photon spacecraft, it may be possible to put a transponder on a Photon mission to GEO at a sensible cost.
-----------------------------------------------------------
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The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
Just this month, a couple of NASA's own satellites had to be scratched from a launch because they did not meet the increasingly strict de-orbiting requirements for a license to orbit. (https://spacenews.com/nasa-cubesat-bumped-from-rideshare-launch-because-of-o...) And right now, even stricter international regulations are under consideration.
If NASA is having trouble meeting these restrictions, you can imagine how high the bar is for a non-profit organization of amateurs. Pipe dream all you want about launch opportunities, but if you can't get the necessary permits, it's just that -- pipe dreams. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd ----------------------------------------------- "Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
-- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd ----------------------------------------------- "Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Fri, Aug 12, 2022 at 8:43 AM Daniel Schultz n8fgv@usa.net wrote:
Rocket Lab's definition of "sensible cost" is $10 million. That is indeed a bargain price for a dedicated HEO mission. Do we think that AMSAT could raise that amount of money in a sensible amount of time?
Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 10:28:36 PM EDT From: Wendy and Terry Osborne wandtosborne@gmail.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
With the recent success of Capstone and the Rocket Lab Photon spacecraft, it may be possible to put a transponder on a Photon mission to GEO at a sensible cost.
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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Mark,
Good point, thus piggy back some HAM transponders (same as QO-100), on a commercial GEO which will surely meet all the regulatory requirement is probably the best option. However the difficulty is to find the agreeable landlord, I guest that we should do some serious research on all GEO projects still at an early stage and contact the promoters to incorporate our transponders, I believe also AMSAT-DL having some experience could coach us about the best way to approach such project.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 12, 2022, at 7:27 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM k0jm.mark@gmail.com wrote:
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
Just this month, a couple of NASA's own satellites had to be scratched from a launch because they did not meet the increasingly strict de-orbiting requirements for a license to orbit. (https://spacenews.com/nasa-cubesat-bumped-from-rideshare-launch-because-of-o...) And right now, even stricter international regulations are under consideration.
If NASA is having trouble meeting these restrictions, you can imagine how high the bar is for a non-profit organization of amateurs. Pipe dream all you want about launch opportunities, but if you can't get the necessary permits, it's just that -- pipe dreams. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
-- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Fri, Aug 12, 2022 at 8:43 AM Daniel Schultz n8fgv@usa.net wrote:
Rocket Lab's definition of "sensible cost" is $10 million. That is indeed a bargain price for a dedicated HEO mission. Do we think that AMSAT could raise that amount of money in a sensible amount of time?
Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 10:28:36 PM EDT From: Wendy and Terry Osborne wandtosborne@gmail.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
With the recent success of Capstone and the Rocket Lab Photon spacecraft, it may be possible to put a transponder on a Photon mission to GEO at a sensible cost.
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload. Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability. The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham (STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.
Enlist the help of universities with active ham clubs.
Equipment manufacturers might contribute to the program to help build an "Americas" market for GEO capable radios.
If this GEOsat capability used a hemispheric beam the coverage would be Antartica to Alaska. Wow.
73 - Paul - W2HRO
On Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 11:53 Jean Marc Momple jean.marc.momple@gmail.com wrote:
Mark,
Good point, thus piggy back some HAM transponders (same as QO-100), on a commercial GEO which will surely meet all the regulatory requirement is probably the best option. However the difficulty is to find the agreeable landlord, I guest that we should do some serious research on all GEO projects still at an early stage and contact the promoters to incorporate our transponders, I believe also AMSAT-DL having some experience could coach us about the best way to approach such project.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 12, 2022, at 7:27 PM, Mark Johns, K0JM k0jm.mark@gmail.com
wrote:
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
Just this month, a couple of NASA's own satellites had to be scratched from a launch because they did not meet the increasingly strict de-orbiting requirements for a license to orbit. (
https://spacenews.com/nasa-cubesat-bumped-from-rideshare-launch-because-of-o... )
And right now, even stricter international regulations are under consideration.
If NASA is having trouble meeting these restrictions, you can imagine how high the bar is for a non-profit organization of amateurs. Pipe dream all you want about launch opportunities, but if you can't get the necessary permits, it's just that -- pipe dreams. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
-- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Fri, Aug 12, 2022 at 8:43 AM Daniel Schultz n8fgv@usa.net wrote:
Rocket Lab's definition of "sensible cost" is $10 million. That is
indeed a
bargain price for a dedicated HEO mission. Do we think that AMSAT could
raise
that amount of money in a sensible amount of time?
Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 10:28:36 PM EDT From: Wendy and Terry Osborne wandtosborne@gmail.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
With the recent success of Capstone and the Rocket Lab Photon spacecraft, it may be possible to put a transponder on a Photon mission to GEO at a sensible cost.
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of AMSAT-NA.
Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at
https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
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AMSAT-NA.
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On 8/12/22 11:27, Paul Andrews wrote:
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload. Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability. The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham (STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.
Enlist the help of universities with active ham clubs.
Equipment manufacturers might contribute to the program to help build an "Americas" market for GEO capable radios.
If this GEOsat capability used a hemispheric beam the coverage would be Antartica to Alaska. Wow.
Hello Paul,
Do I hear a willing volunteer to make this happen? :-)
Everything is simple to do in concept, nothing is easy to do in reality.
--- Zach N0ZGO
The ground station program is already in development and has about $400,000 of their grant left, go to ORI if you want to volunteer with that.
I think there is some gap in understanding the role of small launch vendors like Rocket Lab vs. larger ones like SpaceX. The small launch vendors market is to get a payload to a specific orbit on a very short lead-time. This is attractive to governments when they have a reason to get a spy satellite to a specific geosynchronous location. And now we have "insperctor" satellites like Kosmos 2558, which surveil other satellites and perhaps are equipped to destroy them. They don't seem to be concerned about Kessler syndrome but they are also equipped to end all life on Earth so no surprise. The Russians like to use their own rockets, the small launch market might get into this market from other countries. Unfortunately there is enough government market to support one really-small launcher and one medium launcher. The other companies will fail.
Small launch vendors are not economical if you can get a ride on a larger rocket that is heading to a known orbit when the available payload space fills up. SpaceX will loft 440 lbs to a sun-synchronous orbit for $1.1M today and if Starship/Starlifter work it would drive the price lower.
Thanks
Bruce
On Fri, Aug 12, 2022 at 9:45 AM Zach Metzinger zmetzing@pobox.com wrote:
On 8/12/22 11:27, Paul Andrews wrote:
Yes! Find a commercial GEOsat with room to support an amateur payload. Leverage commercial economics for launch and platform reliability. The commercial operator can donate (tax break) the value of the ham (STEM) capability. Maybe ham bands at 10 GHz and above. Simple bent pipe.
Enlist the help of universities with active ham clubs.
Equipment manufacturers might contribute to the program to help build an "Americas" market for GEO capable radios.
If this GEOsat capability used a hemispheric beam the coverage would be Antartica to Alaska. Wow.
Hello Paul,
Do I hear a willing volunteer to make this happen? :-)
Everything is simple to do in concept, nothing is easy to do in reality.
--- Zach N0ZGO
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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Mark, Thanks for pointing out the de-orbiting requirement; it’s a tough one. But just thinking out loud: what about using the SmallSat EP that Samudra Haque mentioned in an earlier post. I skimmed the paper he and his co-authors produced. Equipping a cubesat with an EP unit looks like an elegant way not only to put the bird up (using the ISS as the launch platform) but also to bring it back down. RayKN2K
Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS
On Friday, August 12, 2022, 11:28 AM, Mark Johns, K0JM k0jm.mark@gmail.com wrote:
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
Just this month, a couple of NASA's own satellites had to be scratched from a launch because they did not meet the increasingly strict de-orbiting requirements for a license to orbit. (https://spacenews.com/nasa-cubesat-bumped-from-rideshare-launch-because-of-o...) And right now, even stricter international regulations are under consideration.
If NASA is having trouble meeting these restrictions, you can imagine how high the bar is for a non-profit organization of amateurs. Pipe dream all you want about launch opportunities, but if you can't get the necessary permits, it's just that -- pipe dreams. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd ----------------------------------------------- "Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
-- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd ----------------------------------------------- "Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Fri, Aug 12, 2022 at 8:43 AM Daniel Schultz n8fgv@usa.net wrote:
Rocket Lab's definition of "sensible cost" is $10 million. That is indeed a bargain price for a dedicated HEO mission. Do we think that AMSAT could raise that amount of money in a sensible amount of time?
Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 10:28:36 PM EDT From: Wendy and Terry Osborne wandtosborne@gmail.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
With the recent success of Capstone and the Rocket Lab Photon spacecraft, it may be possible to put a transponder on a Photon mission to GEO at a sensible cost.
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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I should have added: at least in the case of LEO sats.
Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS
On Friday, August 12, 2022, 11:28 AM, Mark Johns, K0JM k0jm.mark@gmail.com wrote:
The launch costs, while significant, are beside the point. The biggest issue with HEO satellites are the regulatory challenges. AMSAT and international partners could build and get ready for launch such a satellite within a few years, just as they did with AO-10, AO-13, and AO-40. But they would not get a license to put it into orbit in the current regulatory environment. The technical and financial challenges can be met, but the licensing requirements are killing us.
Just this month, a couple of NASA's own satellites had to be scratched from a launch because they did not meet the increasingly strict de-orbiting requirements for a license to orbit. (https://spacenews.com/nasa-cubesat-bumped-from-rideshare-launch-because-of-o...) And right now, even stricter international regulations are under consideration.
If NASA is having trouble meeting these restrictions, you can imagine how high the bar is for a non-profit organization of amateurs. Pipe dream all you want about launch opportunities, but if you can't get the necessary permits, it's just that -- pipe dreams. -- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd ----------------------------------------------- "Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
-- Mark D. Johns, KØJM AMSAT Ambassador & News Service Editor Brooklyn Park, MN USA EN35hd ----------------------------------------------- "Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain
On Fri, Aug 12, 2022 at 8:43 AM Daniel Schultz n8fgv@usa.net wrote:
Rocket Lab's definition of "sensible cost" is $10 million. That is indeed a bargain price for a dedicated HEO mission. Do we think that AMSAT could raise that amount of money in a sensible amount of time?
Dan N8FGV
------ Original Message ------ Received: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 10:28:36 PM EDT From: Wendy and Terry Osborne wandtosborne@gmail.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
With the recent success of Capstone and the Rocket Lab Photon spacecraft, it may be possible to put a transponder on a Photon mission to GEO at a sensible cost.
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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-----------------------------------------------------------
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participants (8)
-
Bruce Perens -
crohtun＠aol.com -
Daniel Schultz -
Jean Marc Momple -
Mark Johns, K0JM -
Paul Andrews -
Samudra Haque [TTLLC] -
Zach Metzinger