We now know more about the VUCC fee changes than we did when the discussion started thanks to comments by Bill Moore and others. As someone stated, the sticker shock has everyone upset. If the costs of the VUCC program justify what is being charged, there's not much you can do about it unless you find someone in addition to Yaesu to sponsor the program. The money has to come from somewhere. As Americans, we are painfully aware of what happens when you spend more than you take in.
The League should have been adjusting rates over the years. The Post Office, our government and businesses all do this gradually to avoid a rebellion. If this had been done, we wouldn't be having such a big outcry right now.
I think the other problem with how this was done involved notification. Announcing that effective today, the cost for VUCC submissions is going up drastically, was not a good move. Rolling out the costs for LOTW VUCC submissions is one thing, but including the traditional filing rates as part of it without publishing an "effective date" ahead of time is another matter. It wasn't well thought out.
Now that it is done, how do we proceed from here? I think there are two main issues that can be looked at by the Directors. They control what happens at the League. My Director has been very responsive to things that I have brought to him. I hope your Director is equally as responsive. Just make sure that when writing to them that you don't rant. State the facts and be specific as to what you want them to do.
The first thing they should look at is the cost of the VUCC program. Bill Moore has suggested that they don't even break even considering everything involved. Ask your Director to get the numbers and validate the claim. Any evaluation should include monies derived from the website. Yaesu sponsors LOTW but it is unclear as to what extent they do. There may be other sources of funding as well.
As a subset of the cost, ask your Director to find out why hybird applications are part of the DXCC LOTW program but are not provided for in the VUCC program. After all, it's the same system. I would expect that we will always be submitting some cards along with LOTW matches. Most of the cost of a paper submission is subsidized by the card checkers. It takes a lot of time to scrutinize a card to find the Grid. After the initial application, only the Grid numbers are sent to the ARRL. A typist can enter 4 character grids into a computer very quickly. Callsigns, date, time, band, etc. are not entered for VUCC. If you send your cards to the ARRL and a paid employee has to go through the cards, the cost is significantly higher than if a volunteer does it. Hybrid applications for a single filing fee should be part of VUCC as they are now for DXCC.
The ARRL Membership was not given a warning about the fee increases. Establishing the fees for LOTW VUCC is one thing. Increasing the fees for paper submissions should have had an effective date into the future. This would allow those who were on the verge of filing the opportunity to do so at the current rate. Ask your Director to have the old paper fees reinstated until say, May 1st. This will give the applicants and the volunteer card checkers some time to process everything. If the new fees are found to be reasonable they go into effect after that date.
I have been licensed for 50 years and prior to getting my license I was involved with ham radio for more than 10 years. I attended many club meetings with my older cousin. The topic of dissatisfaction with the ARRL was always a big deal. The hams talked about it all the time. But if you think that we would be where we are now with Ham Radio if the ARRL had not been there representing our interests, you are sadly mistaken.
Radio spectrum is always in demand. You can't make more of it. You can digitize and process till you are blue in the face but there is never enough spectrum. Cellphones sound lousy because they don't have enough bandwidth. But we put up with it because they are portable and there is no other choice given the number of users. If the ARRL had not been there for us, we would all be on 80 meters. The League is our voice. If you don't like what they are doing, contact your Director or run for the position yourself. Ham Radio is a hobby but there are costs involved. You can choose what you want to spend. No one is forcing you. But do consider that we need the ARRL to preserve ham radio into the future. It takes money to run the organization and we are up against others who have very deep pockets. Supporting the ARRL makes good sense as does supporting AMSAT. They are our advocates.
73, John K8YSE
Very well thought out post John. I do have another question, though. Why did VUCC take the rate hit when DXCC probably uses LOTW the most, and is now very cheap compared to the VUCC. For example, I can make 1 DXCC submission each year of 120 QSOs for $12. That covers any endorsements I get on my 7 different single band DXCCs, plus any for my Mixed, CW, or RTTY DXCCs. If I want to submit 120 QSOs for VUCC and get endorsements for my 6m, 2m and satellite VUCCs that would cost $48, or 4 times as much. It breaks down to
$24 for 120 QSOs at 20 cents each $7 application fee times 3 for the 3 different VUCCs. $1 endorsement sticker fee times 3 for the 3 different endorsements.
This is fair?????
It seems that DXCC should be paying for more of the shortfall than VUCC is since it is using LOTW much more and probably has many more submissions per year. As you state, if I had a local card checker do my VUCC paperwork (as I have in the past) the league spends very little time or money on my award.
73s John AA5JG
On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 2:31 PM, John Papay john@papays.com wrote:
We now know more about the VUCC fee changes than we did when the discussion started thanks to comments by Bill Moore and others. As someone stated, the sticker shock has everyone upset. If the costs of the VUCC program justify what is being charged, there's not much you can do about it unless you find someone in addition to Yaesu to sponsor the program. The money has to come from somewhere. As Americans, we are painfully aware of what happens when you spend more than you take in.
The League should have been adjusting rates over the years. The Post Office, our government and businesses all do this gradually to avoid a rebellion. If this had been done, we wouldn't be having such a big outcry right now.
I think the other problem with how this was done involved notification. Announcing that effective today, the cost for VUCC submissions is going up drastically, was not a good move. Rolling out the costs for LOTW VUCC submissions is one thing, but including the traditional filing rates as part of it without publishing an "effective date" ahead of time is another matter. It wasn't well thought out.
Now that it is done, how do we proceed from here? I think there are two main issues that can be looked at by the Directors. They control what happens at the League. My Director has been very responsive to things that I have brought to him. I hope your Director is equally as responsive. Just make sure that when writing to them that you don't rant. State the facts and be specific as to what you want them to do.
The first thing they should look at is the cost of the VUCC program. Bill Moore has suggested that they don't even break even considering everything involved. Ask your Director to get the numbers and validate the claim. Any evaluation should include monies derived from the website. Yaesu sponsors LOTW but it is unclear as to what extent they do. There may be other sources of funding as well.
As a subset of the cost, ask your Director to find out why hybird applications are part of the DXCC LOTW program but are not provided for in the VUCC program. After all, it's the same system. I would expect that we will always be submitting some cards along with LOTW matches. Most of the cost of a paper submission is subsidized by the card checkers. It takes a lot of time to scrutinize a card to find the Grid. After the initial application, only the Grid numbers are sent to the ARRL. A typist can enter 4 character grids into a computer very quickly. Callsigns, date, time, band, etc. are not entered for VUCC. If you send your cards to the ARRL and a paid employee has to go through the cards, the cost is significantly higher than if a volunteer does it. Hybrid applications for a single filing fee should be part of VUCC as they are now for DXCC.
The ARRL Membership was not given a warning about the fee increases. Establishing the fees for LOTW VUCC is one thing. Increasing the fees for paper submissions should have had an effective date into the future. This would allow those who were on the verge of filing the opportunity to do so at the current rate. Ask your Director to have the old paper fees reinstated until say, May 1st. This will give the applicants and the volunteer card checkers some time to process everything. If the new fees are found to be reasonable they go into effect after that date.
I have been licensed for 50 years and prior to getting my license I was involved with ham radio for more than 10 years. I attended many club meetings with my older cousin. The topic of dissatisfaction with the ARRL was always a big deal. The hams talked about it all the time. But if you think that we would be where we are now with Ham Radio if the ARRL had not been there representing our interests, you are sadly mistaken.
Radio spectrum is always in demand. You can't make more of it. You can digitize and process till you are blue in the face but there is never enough spectrum. Cellphones sound lousy because they don't have enough bandwidth. But we put up with it because they are portable and there is no other choice given the number of users. If the ARRL had not been there for us, we would all be on 80 meters. The League is our voice. If you don't like what they are doing, contact your Director or run for the position yourself. Ham Radio is a hobby but there are costs involved. You can choose what you want to spend. No one is forcing you. But do consider that we need the ARRL to preserve ham radio into the future. It takes money to run the organization and we are up against others who have very deep pockets. Supporting the ARRL makes good sense as does supporting AMSAT. They are our advocates.
73, John K8YSE
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
You're absolutely correct John, AA5JG. I did a full electronic LoTW submission last year for under $25 which included the LoTW QSO credits, yet yesterday, 1/24/11, I took my VUCC Satellite submission over to my local card checker and the total was $47.40. I grant you, $12 of that total is for the award, but we're still looking at $35.40 for fees alone.
Fees should be equal across the board. However one fee is questionable and that's the QSO fee. What purpose does it serve to tax a QSO to obtain an award? Yes, a fee is just another way of saying tax. Not letting the membership know of impending price structure changes was no doubt underhanded and just plan wrong.
Eventually LoTW will be open to non-ARRL awards. The only two I can see are the County Hunters and IOTA. If and when this happens, what fees are going to be imposed to provide such a service to those who want to use it?
73,
Jeff WB3JFS
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Geiger" aa5jg@fidmail.com To: "John Papay" john@papays.com Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 12:44 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: LOTW & VUCC Discussion
Very well thought out post John. I do have another question, though. Why did VUCC take the rate hit when DXCC probably uses LOTW the most, and is now very cheap compared to the VUCC. For example, I can make 1 DXCC submission each year of 120 QSOs for $12. That covers any endorsements I get on my 7 different single band DXCCs, plus any for my Mixed, CW, or RTTY DXCCs. If I want to submit 120 QSOs for VUCC and get endorsements for my 6m, 2m and satellite VUCCs that would cost $48, or 4 times as much. It breaks down to
$24 for 120 QSOs at 20 cents each $7 application fee times 3 for the 3 different VUCCs. $1 endorsement sticker fee times 3 for the 3 different endorsements.
This is fair?????
It seems that DXCC should be paying for more of the shortfall than VUCC is since it is using LOTW much more and probably has many more submissions per year. As you state, if I had a local card checker do my VUCC paperwork (as I have in the past) the league spends very little time or money on my award.
73s John AA5JG
On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 2:31 PM, John Papay john@papays.com wrote:
We now know more about the VUCC fee changes than we did when the discussion started thanks to comments by Bill Moore and others. As someone stated, the sticker shock has everyone upset. If the costs of the VUCC program justify what is being charged, there's not much you can do about it unless you find someone in addition to Yaesu to sponsor the program. The money has to come from somewhere. As Americans, we are painfully aware of what happens when you spend more than you take in.
The League should have been adjusting rates over the years. The Post Office, our government and businesses all do this gradually to avoid a rebellion. If this had been done, we wouldn't be having such a big outcry right now.
I think the other problem with how this was done involved notification. Announcing that effective today, the cost for VUCC submissions is going up drastically, was not a good move. Rolling out the costs for LOTW VUCC submissions is one thing, but including the traditional filing rates as part of it without publishing an "effective date" ahead of time is another matter. It wasn't well thought out.
Now that it is done, how do we proceed from here? I think there are two main issues that can be looked at by the Directors. They control what happens at the League. My Director has been very responsive to things that I have brought to him. I hope your Director is equally as responsive. Just make sure that when writing to them that you don't rant. State the facts and be specific as to what you want them to do.
The first thing they should look at is the cost of the VUCC program. Bill Moore has suggested that they don't even break even considering everything involved. Ask your Director to get the numbers and validate the claim. Any evaluation should include monies derived from the website. Yaesu sponsors LOTW but it is unclear as to what extent they do. There may be other sources of funding as well.
As a subset of the cost, ask your Director to find out why hybird applications are part of the DXCC LOTW program but are not provided for in the VUCC program. After all, it's the same system. I would expect that we will always be submitting some cards along with LOTW matches. Most of the cost of a paper submission is subsidized by the card checkers. It takes a lot of time to scrutinize a card to find the Grid. After the initial application, only the Grid numbers are sent to the ARRL. A typist can enter 4 character grids into a computer very quickly. Callsigns, date, time, band, etc. are not entered for VUCC. If you send your cards to the ARRL and a paid employee has to go through the cards, the cost is significantly higher than if a volunteer does it. Hybrid applications for a single filing fee should be part of VUCC as they are now for DXCC.
The ARRL Membership was not given a warning about the fee increases. Establishing the fees for LOTW VUCC is one thing. Increasing the fees for paper submissions should have had an effective date into the future. This would allow those who were on the verge of filing the opportunity to do so at the current rate. Ask your Director to have the old paper fees reinstated until say, May 1st. This will give the applicants and the volunteer card checkers some time to process everything. If the new fees are found to be reasonable they go into effect after that date.
I have been licensed for 50 years and prior to getting my license I was involved with ham radio for more than 10 years. I attended many club meetings with my older cousin. The topic of dissatisfaction with the ARRL was always a big deal. The hams talked about it all the time. But if you think that we would be where we are now with Ham Radio if the ARRL had not been there representing our interests, you are sadly mistaken.
Radio spectrum is always in demand. You can't make more of it. You can digitize and process till you are blue in the face but there is never enough spectrum. Cellphones sound lousy because they don't have enough bandwidth. But we put up with it because they are portable and there is no other choice given the number of users. If the ARRL had not been there for us, we would all be on 80 meters. The League is our voice. If you don't like what they are doing, contact your Director or run for the position yourself. Ham Radio is a hobby but there are costs involved. You can choose what you want to spend. No one is forcing you. But do consider that we need the ARRL to preserve ham radio into the future. It takes money to run the organization and we are up against others who have very deep pockets. Supporting the ARRL makes good sense as does supporting AMSAT. They are our advocates.
73, John K8YSE
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Good evening John and the group,
Against my better judgment, but after thinking about your thoughtful memo, I am going to reply to several points. (also, in the interest of full disclosure, I will admit to you being my original 'satellite' Elmer, just about a year or so ago. (i.e., its all your fault !!)
As to the ARRL, there really cannot be much doubt that they are a classic example of an anachronistic organization. It is a classic example of a top-down organization where the 'top is the top' until they carry you out the door on a gurney and to the Newington morgue. As for Division Directors, someone please point out ONE instance where these folks made any change whatsoever on behalf of the members. A free plane ride to Hartford does not count.
Your point about the 'no notice' regarding the fee increase is right on point! Again, something like this is really a slap in the face to those of us that send in our $50.00 or so each year.
Now, the critical issue here is really LoTW. Unless I'm missing something, LoTW is a software program. Is the ARRL seriously, I mean seriously, suggesting that this program cannot keep track of all of our contacts, etc., etc. without some human getting their hands in the process? I submit that the next 'Young Ham of The Year' could probably do the programming in between texting the pizza place! To charge the members for 'electronic entries' to the program is onerous. The obvious comparison is, of course, eQSL.cc, the 'QSO' stepchild'. That organization seems to have no problem doing all the machinations, scoring, black magic, etc. without hardly a burp ! (some question the credibility of eQSL but that is another subject)
Let us face facts. The LoTW process is cumbersome and convoluted. There are minimal instructions on the site and this has put off people from attempting to up load logs. The big pitch from the ARRL (and a classic example of their BIAS against eQSL, is the implied credibility of the system. Does anyone really doubt that if someone wanted to cheat about getting an award that that person could not have a hundred cards in the mail to ARRL Monday morning? Get real. The entire 'paper chase' is based on trust among our community. I am not putting an award on my shack wall that is phony. (if anyone is going to get .20 cents a card, it should be the volunteer card checkers, not the fat cats at ARRL)
Bottom line: The LoTW process is flawed. ARRL is trying to impose excessive fees on its membership for those flaws. The members need to wake up and challenge the process. (an equivalent VUCC Satellite Award from AMSAT has been suggested - GOOD IDEA)
Lastly, John is correct, in that ARRL does protect our interests and this type of organization is necessary to protect our interests. ARRL, just don't put your front hand out asking for funds for 'spectrum defense' BPL fights, etc. and then put your other hand in my wallet for an 8 x 10 award paper.
Respectfully submitted, Ted, K7TRK
From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of John Papay Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 12:32 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] LOTW & VUCC Discussion
We now know more about the VUCC fee changes than we did when the discussion started thanks to comments by Bill Moore and others. As someone stated, the sticker shock has everyone upset. If the costs of the VUCC program justify what is being charged, there's not much you can do about it unless you find someone in addition to Yaesu to sponsor the program. The money has to come from somewhere. As Americans, we are painfully aware of what happens when you spend more than you take in.
The League should have been adjusting rates over the years. The Post Office, our government and businesses all do this gradually to avoid a rebellion. If this had been done, we wouldn't be having such a big outcry right now.
I think the other problem with how this was done involved notification. Announcing that effective today, the cost for VUCC submissions is going up drastically, was not a good move. Rolling out the costs for LOTW VUCC submissions is one thing, but including the traditional filing rates as part of it without publishing an "effective date" ahead of time is another matter. It wasn't well thought out.
Now that it is done, how do we proceed from here? I think there are two main issues that can be looked at by the Directors. They control what happens at the League. My Director has been very responsive to things that I have brought to him. I hope your Director is equally as responsive. Just make sure that when writing to them that you don't rant. State the facts and be specific as to what you want them to do.
The first thing they should look at is the cost of the VUCC program. Bill Moore has suggested that they don't even break even considering everything involved. Ask your Director to get the numbers and validate the claim. Any evaluation should include monies derived from the website. Yaesu sponsors LOTW but it is unclear as to what extent they do. There may be other sources of funding as well.
As a subset of the cost, ask your Director to find out why hybird applications are part of the DXCC LOTW program but are not provided for in the VUCC program. After all, it's the same system. I would expect that we will always be submitting some cards along with LOTW matches. Most of the cost of a paper submission is subsidized by the card checkers. It takes a lot of time to scrutinize a card to find the Grid. After the initial application, only the Grid numbers are sent to the ARRL. A typist can enter 4 character grids into a computer very quickly. Callsigns, date, time, band, etc. are not entered for VUCC. If you send your cards to the ARRL and a paid employee has to go through the cards, the cost is significantly higher than if a volunteer does it. Hybrid applications for a single filing fee should be part of VUCC as they are now for DXCC.
The ARRL Membership was not given a warning about the fee increases. Establishing the fees for LOTW VUCC is one thing. Increasing the fees for paper submissions should have had an effective date into the future. This would allow those who were on the verge of filing the opportunity to do so at the current rate. Ask your Director to have the old paper fees reinstated until say, May 1st. This will give the applicants and the volunteer card checkers some time to process everything. If the new fees are found to be reasonable they go into effect after that date.
I have been licensed for 50 years and prior to getting my license I was involved with ham radio for more than 10 years. I attended many club meetings with my older cousin. The topic of dissatisfaction with the ARRL was always a big deal. The hams talked about it all the time. But if you think that we would be where we are now with Ham Radio if the ARRL had not been there representing our interests, you are sadly mistaken.
Radio spectrum is always in demand. You can't make more of it. You can digitize and process till you are blue in the face but there is never enough spectrum. Cellphones sound lousy because they don't have enough bandwidth. But we put up with it because they are portable and there is no other choice given the number of users. If the ARRL had not been there for us, we would all be on 80 meters. The League is our voice. If you don't like what they are doing, contact your Director or run for the position yourself. Ham Radio is a hobby but there are costs involved. You can choose what you want to spend. No one is forcing you. But do consider that we need the ARRL to preserve ham radio into the future. It takes money to run the organization and we are up against others who have very deep pockets. Supporting the ARRL makes good sense as does supporting AMSAT. They are our advocates.
73, John K8YSE
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (4)
-
Jeff Yanko -
John Geiger -
John Papay -
Ted