I see lots of talk about some new sats going up that will be utilizing 23cm. so I have some questions.. first let me explain what I have setup currently.
1) Icom IC-9100 (23cm module not added yet)
2) M2 eggbeaters (70cm and 2m) with preamps
So I am contemplating adding the 23cm add on for the 9100 but perplexed about an antenna. suggestions?
Thanks
David, KK4QOE
Hi David,
It comes down to whether you want to build or buy. If you want to build, a helix is one way. If you want to buy, check out the loop yagis from Directive Systems. Be aware, you want the loop yagis that cover the satellite uplink band rather than terrestrial operation which is at 1296 MHz.
I use a Directive Systems 45 element loop yagi and ~80 watts.
Mike
--- 73, Mike, N1JEZ "A closed mouth gathers no feet"
On 2015-08-04 11:32, David wrote:
I see lots of talk about some new sats going up that will be utilizing 23cm. so I have some questions.. first let me explain what I have setup currently.
Icom IC-9100 (23cm module not added yet)M2 eggbeaters (70cm and 2m) with preampsSo I am contemplating adding the 23cm add on for the 9100 but perplexed about an antenna. suggestions?
Thanks
David, KK4QOE
Directive Systems and engineering has loop yagis specifically for the amateur satellite service in this band. It is what we will be using in the Virginia Tech ground station. No feedback yet on performance (we're not up yet) but they look very well made and the folks at the company are fantastic and they have a great reputation with their antennas at microwave and up. They are fairly compact and lightweight as well and could likely be added to a G5500 style setup with ease and minimal additional strain on the motors.
I'm not aware of any omnis for this band off the top of my head, but being that it is an uplink only allocation, lack of gain and increased path loss could be made up for with power (bearing in mind the recent threads on proper uplink power levels). Consider though that there is about 18.8dB and 9.7dB of additional path loss over VHF and UHF respectively. Assuming similar rx gains and noise performance on the bird at 23cm, as well as atmo/iono losses, that additional loss will have to be overcome on the ground, either with increased antenna gains, or with increased power. Given that the 9100 makes about 10W on 23cm, it may be time for a decision. a) 23cm module plus fairly beefy amp plus homebrew omni, or b) 23cm module plus rotator system plus well built (and factory tuned) yagi.
Personally, I'd recommend option b with rotator plus beam plus lower power, mainly because antenna gain is easy/cheap at 23cm and PAs can be expensive/tricky at 23cm, but I have access to existing rotator systems which bias my opinions.
My two cents....
Also it might be interesting to see some more rigorous analysis and antenna designs for 23cm (omnis and beams). Maybe comparisons of various omnis and various beams and how they affect G/T (imagine a cute little lindenblad or turnstyle or eggbeater for 23cm and how physically small it would be compared to what we are used to at VHF/UHF, it would be roughly a third of the size of its UHF equivalent!). Once we can get some details from the Fox engineering crew or Ops crew on the expected performance of the uplink receiver on 23cm, could make for a good article or two for the Journal (especially the bit on 'microwave omnis' and their feasibility, I'm sure the eng/ops crew has or will have a solid handle on the overall receiver performance and link budgets).
-Zach, KJ4QLP
On Aug 4, 2015 11:32 AM, David [email protected] wrote:
I see lots of talk about some new sats going up that will be utilizing 23cm. so I have some questions.. first let me explain what I have setup currently.
1) Icom IC-9100 (23cm module not added yet)
2) M2 eggbeaters (70cm and 2m) with preamps
So I am contemplating adding the 23cm add on for the 9100 but perplexed about an antenna. suggestions?
Thanks
David, KK4QOE
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sorry, typo... G/T doesn't make sense since uplink only band....please substitute 'affect G/T' with 'affect overall link budgets' in my previous email.
Apologies, its late and I need sleep.
-Zach, KJ4QLP
On Aug 5, 2015 1:12 AM, Zach Leffke [email protected] wrote:
Directive Systems and engineering has loop yagis specifically for the amateur satellite service in this band. It is what we will be using in the Virginia Tech ground station. No feedback yet on performance (we're not up yet) but they look very well made and the folks at the company are fantastic and they have a great reputation with their antennas at microwave and up. They are fairly compact and lightweight as well and could likely be added to a G5500 style setup with ease and minimal additional strain on the motors.
I'm not aware of any omnis for this band off the top of my head, but being that it is an uplink only allocation, lack of gain and increased path loss could be made up for with power (bearing in mind the recent threads on proper uplink power levels). Consider though that there is about 18.8dB and 9.7dB of additional path loss over VHF and UHF respectively. Assuming similar rx gains and noise performance on the bird at 23cm, as well as atmo/iono losses, that additional loss will have to be overcome on the ground, either with increased antenna gains, or with increased power. Given that the 9100 makes about 10W on 23cm, it may be time for a decision. a) 23cm module plus fairly beefy amp plus homebrew omni, or b) 23cm module plus rotator system plus well built (and factory tuned) yagi.
Personally, I'd recommend option b with rotator plus beam plus lower power, mainly because antenna gain is easy/cheap at 23cm and PAs can be expensive/tricky at 23cm, but I have access to existing rotator systems which bias my opinions.
My two cents....
Also it might be interesting to see some more rigorous analysis and antenna designs for 23cm (omnis and beams). Maybe comparisons of various omnis and various beams and how they affect G/T (imagine a cute little lindenblad or turnstyle or eggbeater for 23cm and how physically small it would be compared to what we are used to at VHF/UHF, it would be roughly a third of the size of its UHF equivalent!). Once we can get some details from the Fox engineering crew or Ops crew on the expected performance of the uplink receiver on 23cm, could make for a good article or two for the Journal (especially the bit on 'microwave omnis' and their feasibility, I'm sure the eng/ops crew has or will have a solid handle on the overall receiver performance and link budgets).
-Zach, KJ4QLP
On Aug 4, 2015 11:32 AM, David [email protected] wrote:
I see lots of talk about some new sats going up that will be utilizing 23cm. so I have some questions.. first let me explain what I have setup currently.
1) Icom IC-9100 (23cm module not added yet)
2) M2 eggbeaters (70cm and 2m) with preamps
So I am contemplating adding the 23cm add on for the 9100 but perplexed about an antenna. suggestions?
Thanks
David, KK4QOE
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Zach, all... thanks very much for all the replies, it does give me some things to ponder... I do realize the add on 23cm module for the IC-9100 has only 10 watts output.. so it seems to limit my options or add more cost to the final setup...
Again thanks everyone for the replies, as par for the course you guys are very helpful
Thanks All
David, KK4QOE
-----Original Message----- From: Zach Leffke [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 1:20 AM To: David Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] new sats and 23cm
Sorry, typo... G/T doesn't make sense since uplink only band....please substitute 'affect G/T' with 'affect overall link budgets' in my previous email.
Apologies, its late and I need sleep.
-Zach, KJ4QLP
On Aug 5, 2015 1:12 AM, Zach Leffke [email protected] wrote:
Directive Systems and engineering has loop yagis specifically for the amateur satellite service in this band. It is what we will be using in the Virginia Tech ground station. No feedback yet on performance (we're not up yet) but they look very well made and the folks at the company are fantastic and they have a great reputation with their antennas at microwave and up. They are fairly compact and lightweight as well and could likely be added to a G5500 style setup with ease and minimal additional strain on the motors.
I'm not aware of any omnis for this band off the top of my head, but being that it is an uplink only allocation, lack of gain and increased path loss could be made up for with power (bearing in mind the recent threads on proper uplink power levels). Consider though that there is about 18.8dB and 9.7dB of additional path loss over VHF and UHF respectively. Assuming similar rx gains and noise performance on the bird at 23cm, as well as atmo/iono losses, that additional loss will have to be overcome on the ground, either with increased antenna gains, or with increased power. Given that the 9100 makes about 10W on 23cm, it may be time for a decision. a) 23cm module plus fairly beefy amp plus homebrew omni, or b) 23cm module plus rotator system plus well built (and factory tuned) yagi.
Personally, I'd recommend option b with rotator plus beam plus lower power, mainly because antenna gain is easy/cheap at 23cm and PAs can be expensive/tricky at 23cm, but I have access to existing rotator systems which bias my opinions.
My two cents....
Also it might be interesting to see some more rigorous analysis and antenna designs for 23cm (omnis and beams). Maybe comparisons of various omnis and various beams and how they affect G/T (imagine a cute little lindenblad or turnstyle or eggbeater for 23cm and how physically small it would be compared to what we are used to at VHF/UHF, it would be roughly a third of the size of its UHF equivalent!). Once we can get some details from the Fox engineering crew or Ops crew on the expected performance of the uplink receiver on 23cm, could make for a good article or two for the Journal (especially the bit on 'microwave omnis' and their feasibility, I'm sure the eng/ops crew has or will have a solid handle on the overall receiver performance and link budgets).
-Zach, KJ4QLP
On Aug 4, 2015 11:32 AM, David [email protected] wrote:
I see lots of talk about some new sats going up that will be utilizing 23cm. so I have some questions.. first let me explain what I have setup currently.
Icom IC-9100 (23cm module not added yet)M2 eggbeaters (70cm and 2m) with preampsSo I am contemplating adding the 23cm add on for the 9100 but perplexed about an antenna. suggestions?
Thanks
David, KK4QOE
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I also have 10w on 23cm from my Yaesu FT-736R, and a reasonable beam on the rotor. At least, it worked quite well through the recent LEOs.
How much EIRP are we expected to need for tthis one?
Greg KO6TH
On August 5, 2015 5:52:06 AM PDT, David [email protected] wrote:
Zach, all... thanks very much for all the replies, it does give me some things to ponder... I do realize the add on 23cm module for the IC-9100 has only 10 watts output.. so it seems to limit my options or add more cost to the final setup...
Again thanks everyone for the replies, as par for the course you guys are very helpful
Thanks All
David, KK4QOE
-----Original Message----- From: Zach Leffke [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 1:20 AM To: David Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] new sats and 23cm
Sorry, typo... G/T doesn't make sense since uplink only band....please substitute 'affect G/T' with 'affect overall link budgets' in my previous email.
Apologies, its late and I need sleep.
-Zach, KJ4QLP
On Aug 5, 2015 1:12 AM, Zach Leffke [email protected] wrote:
Directive Systems and engineering has loop yagis specifically for the
amateur satellite service in this band. It is what we will be using in the Virginia Tech ground station. No feedback yet on performance (we're not up yet) but they look very well made and the folks at the company are fantastic and they have a great reputation with their antennas at microwave and up. They are fairly compact and lightweight as well and could likely be added to a G5500 style setup with ease and minimal additional strain on the motors.
I'm not aware of any omnis for this band off the top of my head, but
being that it is an uplink only allocation, lack of gain and increased path loss could be made up for with power (bearing in mind the recent threads on proper uplink power levels). Consider though that there is about 18.8dB and 9.7dB of additional path loss over VHF and UHF respectively. Assuming similar rx gains and noise performance on the bird at 23cm, as well as atmo/iono losses, that additional loss will have to be overcome on the ground, either with increased antenna gains, or with increased power. Given that the 9100 makes about 10W on 23cm, it may be time for a decision. a) 23cm module plus fairly beefy amp plus homebrew omni, or b) 23cm module plus rotator system plus well built (and factory tuned) yagi.
Personally, I'd recommend option b with rotator plus beam plus lower
power, mainly because antenna gain is easy/cheap at 23cm and PAs can be expensive/tricky at 23cm, but I have access to existing rotator systems which bias my opinions.
My two cents....
Also it might be interesting to see some more rigorous analysis and
antenna designs for 23cm (omnis and beams). Maybe comparisons of various omnis and various beams and how they affect G/T (imagine a cute little lindenblad or turnstyle or eggbeater for 23cm and how physically small it would be compared to what we are used to at VHF/UHF, it would be roughly a third of the size of its UHF equivalent!). Once we can get some details from the Fox engineering crew or Ops crew on the expected performance of the uplink receiver on 23cm, could make for a good article or two for the Journal (especially the bit on 'microwave omnis' and their feasibility, I'm sure the eng/ops crew has or will have a solid handle on the overall receiver performance and link budgets).
-Zach, KJ4QLP
On Aug 4, 2015 11:32 AM, David [email protected] wrote:
I see lots of talk about some new sats going up that will be
utilizing 23cm.
so I have some questions.. first let me explain what I have setup currently.
Icom IC-9100 (23cm module not added yet)M2 eggbeaters (70cm and 2m) with preampsSo I am contemplating adding the 23cm add on for the 9100 but perplexed about an antenna. suggestions?
Thanks
David, KK4QOE
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and
do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect
the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
FUNcube on ESEO says 100w EIRP for their L/V FM transponder. I don't recall seeing any estimates for Fox-1C or Fox-1D.
http://amsat-uk.org/2013/02/02/amsat-uk-to-provide-amateur-radio-payload-for...
I did link budget calculations a while ago (can't find them though...) and came to the same conclusion, assuming the sensitivity of the L band downconverter on Fox-1C and 1D is similar to the specification for the 435 MHz receiver (-120 dBm for a 12 dB SINAD), about 100w EIRP will be needed at maximum range given the high path losses on 23cm.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 8:46 PM, Greg Dolkas [email protected] wrote:
I also have 10w on 23cm from my Yaesu FT-736R, and a reasonable beam on the rotor. At least, it worked quite well through the recent LEOs.
How much EIRP are we expected to need for tthis one?
Greg KO6TH
On August 5, 2015 5:52:06 AM PDT, David [email protected] wrote:
Zach, all... thanks very much for all the replies, it does give me some things to ponder... I do realize the add on 23cm module for the IC-9100 has only 10 watts output.. so it seems to limit my options or add more cost to the final setup...
Again thanks everyone for the replies, as par for the course you guys are very helpful
Thanks All
David, KK4QOE
-----Original Message----- From: Zach Leffke [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 1:20 AM To: David Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] new sats and 23cm
Sorry, typo... G/T doesn't make sense since uplink only band....please substitute 'affect G/T' with 'affect overall link budgets' in my previous email.
Apologies, its late and I need sleep.
-Zach, KJ4QLP
On Aug 5, 2015 1:12 AM, Zach Leffke [email protected] wrote:
Directive Systems and engineering has loop yagis specifically for the
amateur satellite service in this band. It is what we will be using in the Virginia Tech ground station. No feedback yet on performance (we're not up yet) but they look very well made and the folks at the company are fantastic and they have a great reputation with their antennas at microwave and up. They are fairly compact and lightweight as well and could likely be added to a G5500 style setup with ease and minimal additional strain on the motors.
I'm not aware of any omnis for this band off the top of my head, but
being that it is an uplink only allocation, lack of gain and increased path loss could be made up for with power (bearing in mind the recent threads on proper uplink power levels). Consider though that there is about 18.8dB and 9.7dB of additional path loss over VHF and UHF respectively. Assuming similar rx gains and noise performance on the bird at 23cm, as well as atmo/iono losses, that additional loss will have to be overcome on the ground, either with increased antenna gains, or with increased power. Given that the 9100 makes about 10W on 23cm, it may be time for a decision. a) 23cm module plus fairly beefy amp plus homebrew omni, or b) 23cm module plus rotator system plus well built (and factory tuned) yagi.
Personally, I'd recommend option b with rotator plus beam plus lower
power, mainly because antenna gain is easy/cheap at 23cm and PAs can be expensive/tricky at 23cm, but I have access to existing rotator systems which bias my opinions.
My two cents....
Also it might be interesting to see some more rigorous analysis and
antenna designs for 23cm (omnis and beams). Maybe comparisons of various omnis and various beams and how they affect G/T (imagine a cute little lindenblad or turnstyle or eggbeater for 23cm and how physically small it would be compared to what we are used to at VHF/UHF, it would be roughly a third of the size of its UHF equivalent!). Once we can get some details from the Fox engineering crew or Ops crew on the expected performance of the uplink receiver on 23cm, could make for a good article or two for the Journal (especially the bit on 'microwave omnis' and their feasibility, I'm sure the eng/ops crew has or will have a solid handle on the overall receiver performance and link budgets).
-Zach, KJ4QLP
On Aug 4, 2015 11:32 AM, David [email protected] wrote:
I see lots of talk about some new sats going up that will be
utilizing 23cm.
so I have some questions.. first let me explain what I have setup currently.
Icom IC-9100 (23cm module not added yet)M2 eggbeaters (70cm and 2m) with preampsSo I am contemplating adding the 23cm add on for the 9100 but perplexed about an antenna. suggestions?
Thanks
David, KK4QOE
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and
do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect
the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (5)
-
David -
Greg Dolkas -
Mike Seguin -
Paul Stoetzer -
Zach Leffke