I’m also a newcomer to the birds, but very excited about it. Likewise, I responded to the survey, but wanted to comment further regarding geostationary and HEO satellites.
In the camp of “Both, please.” The HEO birds would once again offer the possibility of DXCC and make WAS more realistic—it also offers more operating challenges.
But a geostationary amateur satellite would have many interesting benefits:
Provide an easier introduction to satellite operation, and attract new operators. Excellent tool for emergency communications during a natural disaster. Opportunity to experiment with microwave operations. The ability to enjoy satellite operation any time of the day/night. The band is always open.
I’m grateful for anyone who incorporates amateur radio into their satellites, but feel that birds should include either linear, digital, or FM transponders whenever possible. Designers are asking a lot of hams when they solicit our monitoring their telemetry signals, and using amateur spectrum for their purposes without much tangible benefit to us. My opinion only.
It’s wonderful that they asked us. Dialogue is the key to most human accomplishment.
73,
Les Rayburn, N1LF Maylene, AL EM63nf AMSAT #38965, ARRL Life Member, CVHS Life Member, SVHF Member
GEOSATs have another interesting characteristic. 600 ms round trip delay due to the longer distance.
Does anyone remember when MCI first started providing a discounted long distance telephone service?
This will make voice QSOs a little unnatural but certainly not impossible.
73 - Paul - W2HRO
On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 12:21 PM Les Rayburn les@highnoonfilm.com wrote:
I’m also a newcomer to the birds, but very excited about it. Likewise, I responded to the survey, but wanted to comment further regarding geostationary and HEO satellites.
In the camp of “Both, please.” The HEO birds would once again offer the possibility of DXCC and make WAS more realistic—it also offers more operating challenges.
But a geostationary amateur satellite would have many interesting benefits:
Provide an easier introduction to satellite operation, and attract new operators. Excellent tool for emergency communications during a natural disaster. Opportunity to experiment with microwave operations. The ability to enjoy satellite operation any time of the day/night. The band is always open.
I’m grateful for anyone who incorporates amateur radio into their satellites, but feel that birds should include either linear, digital, or FM transponders whenever possible. Designers are asking a lot of hams when they solicit our monitoring their telemetry signals, and using amateur spectrum for their purposes without much tangible benefit to us. My opinion only.
It’s wonderful that they asked us. Dialogue is the key to most human accomplishment.
73,
Les Rayburn, N1LF Maylene, AL EM63nf AMSAT #38965, ARRL Life Member, CVHS Life Member, SVHF Member
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Paul Andrews said:
GEOSATs have another interesting characteristic. 600 ms round trip delay due to the longer distance.
600 mSec is almost a triple hop, so not that long...
For those of us that operated on AO-40 during it's unfortunately short life, when it was at or near apogee, it was well beyond the Geo belt, and that was entertaining. Of course most people on linear birds operate full duplex and it took a little to get used to hearing yourself with such along delay...
73 ----- Jim Walls - K6CCC jim@k6ccc.org
Hi!
We can experience the delays you mentioned, even with LEO satellites today. Use an SDR receiver on the downlink. Unless the computer is very fast, there is a lag in hearing the downlink. It was annoying at first, but now I don't worry about listening for my voice. I can see signals on the waterfall in the SDR software, and as long as I can hear my voice coming through... I'm fine.
73!
Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK http://www.wd9ewk.net/ Twitter: @WD9EWK or http://twitter.com/WD9EWK
On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 7:44 PM jim@k6ccc.org jim@k6ccc.org wrote:
Paul Andrews said:
GEOSATs have another interesting characteristic. 600 ms round trip delay due to the longer distance.
600 mSec is almost a triple hop, so not that long...
For those of us that operated on AO-40 during it's unfortunately short life, when it was at or near apogee, it was well beyond the Geo belt, and that was entertaining. Of course most people on linear birds operate full duplex and it took a little to get used to hearing yourself with such along delay...
73
Jim Walls - K6CCC jim@k6ccc.org
On 2/8/2019 13:43, jim@k6ccc.org wrote:
For those of us that operated on AO-40 during it's unfortunately short life, when it was at or near apogee, it was well beyond the Geo belt, and that was entertaining. Of course most people on linear birds operate full duplex and it took a little to get used to hearing yourself with such along delay...
I found that even back to AO-13 this was actually serendipitous foresight to the current day and age, where you get on online meetings and have a half second or more of delay hearing yourself back over the meeting audio echo when somebody doesn't have theirs muted correctly. Anybody who worked the HEO birds can just keep on talking! Unfortunately anybody who didn't probably doesn't know what the heck you are saying, but you and the other old timers are fine! hihi
Jerry Buxton, NØJY
On 2/8/19 5:30 PM, Jerry Buxton wrote:
I found that even back to AO-13 this was actually serendipitous
Speaking of AO-13, here's a great video about the old gal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWfZqrdWBdU
Audio is only in German, which taxes my high-school memory of the subject, but the pictures are great.
--- Zach N0ZGO
I remember having a contact on AO-10 with Australian station VK5ED in Adelaide (12-7-85) that was just like talking on a local FM repeater. For a while, I had two AO-10 QSOs with WB4AKC/HK3, David in the Bogata Colombia US Consulate (12-1-86,1-4-87)that lasted an hour or so each time. I miss the high elliptical orbits (HEO) of AO-10, AO-13 and AO-40.
Yes, you do learn to ignore the delayed sound of your own voice. It's probably a good thing anyway.
Raymond Hoad WA5QGD
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Buxton Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 17:30 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Geostationary & HEO Satellites
On 2/8/2019 13:43, jim@k6ccc.org wrote:
For those of us that operated on AO-40 during it's unfortunately short life, when it was at or near apogee, it was well beyond the Geo belt, and that was entertaining. Of course most people on linear birds operate full duplex and it took a little to get used to hearing yourself with such along delay...
I found that even back to AO-13 this was actually serendipitous foresight to the current day and age, where you get on online meetings and have a half second or more of delay hearing yourself back over the meeting audio echo when somebody doesn't have theirs muted correctly. Anybody who worked the HEO birds can just keep on talking! Unfortunately anybody who didn't probably doesn't know what the heck you are saying, but you and the other old timers are fine! hihi
Jerry Buxton, NØJY
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Paul,
Unless there's significant latency inside the satellite, I think you're out by a factor of two. Round trip is 2 x 40,000 km (*) = 80,000 km total. Speed of light and radio latency says we're looking at closer to 300 ms.
(*) depending on where you are on the mother planet.
Simon Brown, G4ELI www.sdr-radio.com
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org On Behalf Of Paul Andrews Sent: 08 February 2019 19:27 To: Les Rayburn les@highnoonfilm.com Cc: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Geostationary & HEO Satellites
GEOSATs have another interesting characteristic. 600 ms round trip delay due to the longer distance.
Does anyone remember when MCI first started providing a discounted long distance telephone service?
This will make voice QSOs a little unnatural but certainly not impossible.
73 - Paul - W2HRO
On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 12:21 PM Les Rayburn les@highnoonfilm.com wrote:
I’m also a newcomer to the birds, but very excited about it. Likewise, I responded to the survey, but wanted to comment further regarding geostationary and HEO satellites.
In the camp of “Both, please.” The HEO birds would once again offer the possibility of DXCC and make WAS more realistic—it also offers more operating challenges.
But a geostationary amateur satellite would have many interesting benefits:
Provide an easier introduction to satellite operation, and attract new operators. Excellent tool for emergency communications during a natural disaster. Opportunity to experiment with microwave operations. The ability to enjoy satellite operation any time of the day/night. The band is always open.
I’m grateful for anyone who incorporates amateur radio into their satellites, but feel that birds should include either linear, digital, or FM transponders whenever possible. Designers are asking a lot of hams when they solicit our monitoring their telemetry signals, and using amateur spectrum for their purposes without much tangible benefit to us. My opinion only.
It’s wonderful that they asked us. Dialogue is the key to most human accomplishment.
73,
Les Rayburn, N1LF Maylene, AL EM63nf AMSAT #38965, ARRL Life Member, CVHS Life Member, SVHF Member
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Simon,
I spent 20 years building data circuits using geosynchronous satellites. During that time, my definition of round trip was uplink-dowlink-uplink-downlink or 4 x 150ms (plus or minus a small amount of Doppler).
Yes - you're correct - the loopback delay is 300ms. But if you communicate with another person on Earth, the round trip delay is 600ms.
If you tell someone a joke, you won't hear the laugh until after a 600ms delay. This is only true for a good joke. Tell a bad joke and the delay will be infinite. :O
73 - Paul - W2HRO
On Fri, Feb 8, 2019, 16:09 Simon Brown simon@sdr-radio.com wrote:
Paul,
Unless there's significant latency inside the satellite, I think you're out by a factor of two. Round trip is 2 x 40,000 km (*) = 80,000 km total. Speed of light and radio latency says we're looking at closer to 300 ms.
(*) depending on where you are on the mother planet.
Simon Brown, G4ELI www.sdr-radio.com
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org On Behalf Of Paul Andrews Sent: 08 February 2019 19:27 To: Les Rayburn les@highnoonfilm.com Cc: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Geostationary & HEO Satellites
GEOSATs have another interesting characteristic. 600 ms round trip delay due to the longer distance.
Does anyone remember when MCI first started providing a discounted long distance telephone service?
This will make voice QSOs a little unnatural but certainly not impossible.
73 - Paul - W2HRO
On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 12:21 PM Les Rayburn les@highnoonfilm.com wrote:
I’m also a newcomer to the birds, but very excited about it. Likewise, I
responded to the survey, but wanted to comment further regarding geostationary and HEO satellites.
In the camp of “Both, please.” The HEO birds would once again offer the
possibility of DXCC and make WAS more realistic—it also offers more operating challenges.
But a geostationary amateur satellite would have many interesting
benefits:
Provide an easier introduction to satellite operation, and attract new
operators.
Excellent tool for emergency communications during a natural disaster. Opportunity to experiment with microwave operations. The ability to enjoy satellite operation any time of the day/night. The
band is always open.
I’m grateful for anyone who incorporates amateur radio into their
satellites, but feel that birds should include either linear, digital, or FM transponders whenever possible. Designers are asking a lot of hams when they solicit our monitoring their telemetry signals, and using amateur spectrum for their purposes without much tangible benefit to us. My opinion only.
It’s wonderful that they asked us. Dialogue is the key to most human
accomplishment.
73,
Les Rayburn, N1LF Maylene, AL EM63nf AMSAT #38965, ARRL Life Member, CVHS Life Member, SVHF Member
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect
the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Very much what I see with my satellite internet -- if I ping something, I see delay between 600 - 800 msec.
Jim
wb4gcs@amsat.org
On 2/8/2019 4:20 PM, Paul Andrews wrote:
Simon,
I spent 20 years building data circuits using geosynchronous satellites. During that time, my definition of round trip was uplink-dowlink-uplink-downlink or 4 x 150ms (plus or minus a small amount of Doppler).
Yes - you're correct - the loopback delay is 300ms. But if you communicate with another person on Earth, the round trip delay is 600ms.
If you tell someone a joke, you won't hear the laugh until after a 600ms delay. This is only true for a good joke. Tell a bad joke and the delay will be infinite. :O
73 - Paul - W2HRO
On Fri, Feb 8, 2019, 16:09 Simon Brown simon@sdr-radio.com wrote:
Paul,
Unless there's significant latency inside the satellite, I think you're out by a factor of two. Round trip is 2 x 40,000 km (*) = 80,000 km total. Speed of light and radio latency says we're looking at closer to 300 ms.
(*) depending on where you are on the mother planet.
Simon Brown, G4ELI www.sdr-radio.com
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org On Behalf Of Paul Andrews Sent: 08 February 2019 19:27 To: Les Rayburn les@highnoonfilm.com Cc: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Geostationary & HEO Satellites
GEOSATs have another interesting characteristic. 600 ms round trip delay due to the longer distance.
Does anyone remember when MCI first started providing a discounted long distance telephone service?
This will make voice QSOs a little unnatural but certainly not impossible.
73 - Paul - W2HRO
On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 12:21 PM Les Rayburn les@highnoonfilm.com wrote:
I’m also a newcomer to the birds, but very excited about it. Likewise, I
responded to the survey, but wanted to comment further regarding geostationary and HEO satellites.
In the camp of “Both, please.” The HEO birds would once again offer the
possibility of DXCC and make WAS more realistic—it also offers more operating challenges.
But a geostationary amateur satellite would have many interesting
benefits:
Provide an easier introduction to satellite operation, and attract new
operators.
Excellent tool for emergency communications during a natural disaster. Opportunity to experiment with microwave operations. The ability to enjoy satellite operation any time of the day/night. The
band is always open.
I’m grateful for anyone who incorporates amateur radio into their
satellites, but feel that birds should include either linear, digital, or FM transponders whenever possible. Designers are asking a lot of hams when they solicit our monitoring their telemetry signals, and using amateur spectrum for their purposes without much tangible benefit to us. My opinion only.
It’s wonderful that they asked us. Dialogue is the key to most human
accomplishment.
73,
Les Rayburn, N1LF Maylene, AL EM63nf AMSAT #38965, ARRL Life Member, CVHS Life Member, SVHF Member
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect
the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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Yes! That delay is a problem for Internet (TCP/IP) connections. Special proxies are used to increase throughput.
The geosat is not even launched and the ham radio community is exchanging technics to overcome technical challenges.
I was thinking of other geosat uses. A beacon in the sky for taking antenna patterns. A frequency reference for calibration. Verifying antenna G/T. Calibrating antenna AZ/EL pointing. Endless uses.
On Fri, Feb 8, 2019, 17:52 Jim Sanford wb4gcs@wb4gcs.org wrote:
Very much what I see with my satellite internet -- if I ping something, I see delay between 600 - 800 msec.
Jim
wb4gcs@amsat.org
On 2/8/2019 4:20 PM, Paul Andrews wrote:
Simon,
I spent 20 years building data circuits using geosynchronous satellites. During that time, my definition of round trip was uplink-dowlink-uplink-downlink or 4 x 150ms (plus or minus a small amount of Doppler).
Yes - you're correct - the loopback delay is 300ms. But if you
communicate
with another person on Earth, the round trip delay is 600ms.
If you tell someone a joke, you won't hear the laugh until after a 600ms delay. This is only true for a good joke. Tell a bad joke and the delay will be infinite. :O
73 - Paul - W2HRO
On Fri, Feb 8, 2019, 16:09 Simon Brown simon@sdr-radio.com wrote:
Paul,
Unless there's significant latency inside the satellite, I think you're out by a factor of two. Round trip is 2 x 40,000 km (*) = 80,000 km
total.
Speed of light and radio latency says we're looking at closer to 300 ms.
(*) depending on where you are on the mother planet.
Simon Brown, G4ELI www.sdr-radio.com
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org On Behalf Of Paul Andrews Sent: 08 February 2019 19:27 To: Les Rayburn les@highnoonfilm.com Cc: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Geostationary & HEO Satellites
GEOSATs have another interesting characteristic. 600 ms round trip delay due to the longer distance.
Does anyone remember when MCI first started providing a discounted long distance telephone service?
This will make voice QSOs a little unnatural but certainly not
impossible.
73 - Paul - W2HRO
On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 12:21 PM Les Rayburn les@highnoonfilm.com
wrote:
I’m also a newcomer to the birds, but very excited about it. Likewise,
I
responded to the survey, but wanted to comment further regarding geostationary and HEO satellites.
In the camp of “Both, please.” The HEO birds would once again offer the
possibility of DXCC and make WAS more realistic—it also offers more operating challenges.
But a geostationary amateur satellite would have many interesting
benefits:
Provide an easier introduction to satellite operation, and attract new
operators.
Excellent tool for emergency communications during a natural disaster. Opportunity to experiment with microwave operations. The ability to enjoy satellite operation any time of the day/night. The
band is always open.
I’m grateful for anyone who incorporates amateur radio into their
satellites, but feel that birds should include either linear, digital,
or
FM transponders whenever possible. Designers are asking a lot of hams
when
they solicit our monitoring their telemetry signals, and using amateur spectrum for their purposes without much tangible benefit to us. My
opinion
only.
It’s wonderful that they asked us. Dialogue is the key to most human
accomplishment.
73,
Les Rayburn, N1LF Maylene, AL EM63nf AMSAT #38965, ARRL Life Member, CVHS Life Member, SVHF Member
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect
the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to
all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the
official
views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Paul,
Es'Hail 2 is up, working and should be released for hams in February (last info I saw on AMSAT UK). 2.4 GHz up, 10 GHz down, it'll be fantastic.
Geo over NA would be a great addition.
Simon Brown, G4ELI www.sdr-radio.com
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org On Behalf Of Paul Andrews
The geosat is not even launched and the ham radio community is exchanging technics to overcome technical challenges.
I was thinking of other geosat uses. A beacon in the sky for taking antenna patterns. A frequency reference for calibration. Verifying antenna G/T. Calibrating antenna AZ/EL pointing. Endless uses.
participants (9)
-
Jerry Buxton -
Jim Sanford -
jim＠k6ccc.org -
Les Rayburn -
Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) -
Paul Andrews -
Ray Hoad -
Simon Brown -
Zach Metzinger