Re: Charge for Satellite Tracking?
Greetings,
Well, how would we feel if USSTRATCOM started charging for the use of their data that we use to track our satellites?
Also, using your amateur station for monetrary gain, even if it is for a not for profit organization, seems problematical.
Help if you want, don't if you don't.
Simple enough.
73, Armando N8IGJ
----- Original Message ----- From: "Armando Mercado" am25544@triton.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 9:44 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Charge for Satellite Tracking?
Greetings,
Well, how would we feel if USSTRATCOM started charging for the use of their data that we use to track our satellites?
Also, using your amateur station for monetrary gain, even if it is for a not for profit organization, seems problematical.
Help if you want, don't if you don't.
Simple enough.
73, Armando N8IGJ
Hi Armando, N8IGJ
If USSTRATCOM started charging for the use of their data that we use to track our satellites we can dowload keps from CelesTrack free for all on internet.
http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/amateur.txt
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
On 31.10.2011 21:17, jmfranke wrote:
To paraphrase Yoda in Star Wars:
Whine not. Do. Or do not. There is no whine. John WA4WDL
or just do it yourself....
http://www.amsat.org/amsat/articles/g3ruh/123.html
Sorry - I could not resist.. old AMSAT technology, almost forgotten by most people...
73s Peter DB2OS
Very good, Peter, I was hoping we could get Jim to chime in!!
73 Dave
On 31.10.2011 21:17, jmfranke wrote:
To paraphrase Yoda in Star Wars:
Whine not. Do. Or do not. There is no whine. John WA4WDLor just do it yourself....
http://www.amsat.org/amsat/articles/g3ruh/123.html
Sorry - I could not resist.. old AMSAT technology, almost forgotten by most people...
73s Peter DB2OS
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
73, Dave, WB6LLO dguimon1@san.rr.com
Disagree: I learn....
Pulling for P3E...
I think having stations set up to do that ranging would be neat to have if nothing else for an education opportunity.
As a student working on building and launching one of these little nano-satellites I would like to see one thing cleared up. These are NOT University satellites, they are student satellites. They are designed and built by students, funded through grants and donations arranged by students. Universities provide little more then an framework for organizing these sorts of projects. So if the university is going to chip in to some fund on behalf of those helping track the satellites, then it would be really nice for them to through some money at the building of the satellites. At my school the department sponsoring our project has to pay the university rent for the space we take up in a building "owned" by the department for a project made up entirely of tuition paying students. We may only pay around $7-15K in tuition, and another $5-10K in housing, food, books, etc. but most of us if we are lucky can make about half our yearly costs from summer jobs or internships. The rest we scrounge for scholarships and grants. We put in around 20 hours a week into class and labs, another 15-40 in other school work. What little free time we have we spend in research labs instead of watching TV, or drinking. We spend a lot of that time trying to keep the project funded to a level that allows us to continue. We are very aware of how much it costs to construct a station to track satellites, and to build the satellites, and to launch the satellites. If we are able to bring in any extra money we spend that right back into the students we have putting 20 hours a week that they could and probably should spend on something outside of school. We devote years into these little boxes of electronics, in the hope that it will someday fly in space. We reach out and connect with other students doing the same thing, we congratulate them for their successes, and console them on their losses. I personally was up all night watching this latest launch as one of the cubes (E1P) was to have been launch on the Glory mission in march which failed to reach orbit. It is now on orbit and doing fine, M-Cubed however seams to be having issues and I will track it every chance I get to help that team understand what is going on.
I got into nano-satellites by first being a HAM, and if I have my way anything I put into orbit will be switched over to a BBS, APRS digi, or even voice repeater when the scientific mission is done. That time may not come in the operational life span of the satellite and it is very important that it complete the mission that someone has generously paid for. If nothing else then I hope what I learn from this endeavor will serve to further the collective understanding of something.
I attend a state school as a student of Mechanical Engineering, I have been dumpster diving for parts, I carry two rolls of duct tape, I find a hammer can fix many problems, I have spent hours building things to replace tools I either cannot afford, or cannot afford to wait for. The moral is that these aren't multi-million dollar projects with blank checks, these are shoestring operations that have to take things one step at a time. If you don't want to help out the next generation of aerospace engineers and rocket scientists that's up to you. We won't turn down help, but many of us have grown to expect nothing from anyone. We will build a ladder so we can through our satellite into orbit if we have to.
I'm sorry if I seam over passionate or long winded, but please keep in mind that I have watched for several years as budgets have been cut, my tuition and living expenses goes up, and my income and financial-aid remain the same. It is like a broken record (yes I know what records are) to hear people complain about a short term inconvenience and offer a solution that threatens long term progress.
Anthony Odenthal KE7OSN President Amateur Radio Club at OSU
On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 21:45, Dave Guimont dguimon1@san.rr.com wrote:
Very good, Peter, I was hoping we could get Jim to chime in!!
73 Dave
On 31.10.2011 21:17, jmfranke wrote:
To paraphrase Yoda in Star Wars:
Whine not. Do. Or do not. There is no whine. John WA4WDLor just do it yourself....
http://www.amsat.org/amsat/**articles/g3ruh/123.htmlhttp://www.amsat.org/amsat/articles/g3ruh/123.html
Sorry - I could not resist.. old AMSAT technology, almost forgotten by most people...
73s Peter DB2OS
______________________________**_________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bbhttp://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
73, Dave, WB6LLO dguimon1@san.rr.com Disagree: I learn.... Pulling for P3E... ______________________________**
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bbhttp://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Thanks Anthony,
Point well made. Keep up the good work and know that many in AMSAT are behind you and will support you.
Stefan, VE4NSA
On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:26 AM, KE7OSN ke7osn@arrl.net wrote:
I think having stations set up to do that ranging would be neat to have if nothing else for an education opportunity.
As a student working on building and launching one of these little nano-satellites I would like to see one thing cleared up. These are NOT University satellites, they are student satellites. They are designed and built by students, funded through grants and donations arranged by students. Universities provide little more then an framework for organizing these sorts of projects. So if the university is going to chip in to some fund on behalf of those helping track the satellites, then it would be really nice for them to through some money at the building of the satellites. At my school the department sponsoring our project has to pay the university rent for the space we take up in a building "owned" by the department for a project made up entirely of tuition paying students. We may only pay around $7-15K in tuition, and another $5-10K in housing, food, books, etc. but most of us if we are lucky can make about half our yearly costs from summer jobs or internships. The rest we scrounge for scholarships and grants. We put in around 20 hours a week into class and labs, another 15-40 in other school work. What little free time we have we spend in research labs instead of watching TV, or drinking. We spend a lot of that time trying to keep the project funded to a level that allows us to continue. We are very aware of how much it costs to construct a station to track satellites, and to build the satellites, and to launch the satellites. If we are able to bring in any extra money we spend that right back into the students we have putting 20 hours a week that they could and probably should spend on something outside of school. We devote years into these little boxes of electronics, in the hope that it will someday fly in space. We reach out and connect with other students doing the same thing, we congratulate them for their successes, and console them on their losses. I personally was up all night watching this latest launch as one of the cubes (E1P) was to have been launch on the Glory mission in march which failed to reach orbit. It is now on orbit and doing fine, M-Cubed however seams to be having issues and I will track it every chance I get to help that team understand what is going on.
I got into nano-satellites by first being a HAM, and if I have my way anything I put into orbit will be switched over to a BBS, APRS digi, or even voice repeater when the scientific mission is done. That time may not come in the operational life span of the satellite and it is very important that it complete the mission that someone has generously paid for. If nothing else then I hope what I learn from this endeavor will serve to further the collective understanding of something.
I attend a state school as a student of Mechanical Engineering, I have been dumpster diving for parts, I carry two rolls of duct tape, I find a hammer can fix many problems, I have spent hours building things to replace tools I either cannot afford, or cannot afford to wait for. The moral is that these aren't multi-million dollar projects with blank checks, these are shoestring operations that have to take things one step at a time. If you don't want to help out the next generation of aerospace engineers and rocket scientists that's up to you. We won't turn down help, but many of us have grown to expect nothing from anyone. We will build a ladder so we can through our satellite into orbit if we have to.
I'm sorry if I seam over passionate or long winded, but please keep in mind that I have watched for several years as budgets have been cut, my tuition and living expenses goes up, and my income and financial-aid remain the same. It is like a broken record (yes I know what records are) to hear people complain about a short term inconvenience and offer a solution that threatens long term progress.
Anthony Odenthal KE7OSN President Amateur Radio Club at OSU
On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 21:45, Dave Guimont dguimon1@san.rr.com wrote:
Very good, Peter, I was hoping we could get Jim to chime in!!
73 Dave
On 31.10.2011 21:17, jmfranke wrote:
To paraphrase Yoda in Star Wars:
Whine not. Do. Or do not. There is no whine.
John WA4WDL
or just do it yourself....
http://www.amsat.org/amsat/**articles/g3ruh/123.htmlhttp://www.amsat.org/amsat/articles/g3ruh/123.html
Sorry - I could not resist.. old AMSAT technology, almost forgotten by most people...
73s Peter DB2OS
______________________________**_________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bbhttp://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
73, Dave, WB6LLO dguimon1@san.rr.com
Disagree: I learn....
Pulling for P3E... ______________________________** _________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bbhttp://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Good to see the AMSAT educational papers being mentioned again.
I'm using James' 'Sun's Up' paper to model illumination for my FUNcube Orbital model.
http://www.amsat.org/amsat/articles/g3ruh/112.html
Regards
On 1 Nov 2011, at 00:11, Peter Guelzow peter.guelzow@kourou.de wrote:
On 31.10.2011 21:17, jmfranke wrote:
To paraphrase Yoda in Star Wars:
Whine not. Do. Or do not. There is no whine. John WA4WDLor just do it yourself....
http://www.amsat.org/amsat/articles/g3ruh/123.html
Sorry - I could not resist.. old AMSAT technology, almost forgotten by most people...
73s Peter DB2OS
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi Peter,
Many thanks for the link. On our FUNcube cubesat mission we are promoting, as one of the many educational outreach subjects, the opportunity for a group to design and build such a ranging system using the U/V linear transponder that we will be flying on board. The same functionality will also be available on UKube.
Maybe others can use this idea to help justify the presence of amateur transponders on satellites to provide independent position information. We might, however, have to ask Jim to take down his paper from the web so as not to make it too easy:)
best 73
Graham G3VZV
or just do it yourself....
http://www.amsat.org/amsat/articles/g3ruh/123.html
Sorry - I could not resist.. old AMSAT technology, almost forgotten by most people...
73s Peter DB2OS
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi Graham,
this is very good news indeed and I'm excited to hear that you will use it on FUNcube and UKcube.. the principals of ranging are easy to understand and I think it would be an ideal educational tool to learn about orbital mechanics, Kepler's law, etc., even how GPS works.. argh... we could create our own GNSS system .. haha :-)
The AMSAT ranging system developed by Karl Meinzer DJ4ZC and later optimized by James Miller G3RUH was used on all Phase 3 satellites (OSCAR-10/13/40). You only needed an 400 Bit/s BPSK demodulator (used for telemetry already) and a BPSK modulator (as part of our command station). With the Phase 3 satellites it was also working through the regenerative ranging mode of the IHU, i.e. the Beacon TX data was directly feed by the Command RX. Like with the transponder, you have to measure or calculate the system phase delays to calibrate it and achieve higher accuracy. This includes calibrating your own system through a simple "repeater"... but even without calibration, it already works amazingly well..
Most people will laugh today, but the early AMSAT ranging software was running on the amazing ATARI 800 computer and Karl's IPS software. Beside the P3 satellites, we used this also LEO like AO-21 and on FUJI OSCAR-12 to provide early Elements for those satellites... it was fun!
73 Peter DB2OS
On 01.11.2011 10:03, g.shirville@btinternet.com wrote:
Hi Peter,
Many thanks for the link. On our FUNcube cubesat mission we are promoting, as one of the many educational outreach subjects, the opportunity for a group to design and build such a ranging system using the U/V linear transponder that we will be flying on board. The same functionality will also be available on UKube.
Maybe others can use this idea to help justify the presence of amateur transponders on satellites to provide independent position information. We might, however, have to ask Jim to take down his paper from the web so as not to make it too easy:)
best 73
Graham G3VZV
or just do it yourself....
http://www.amsat.org/amsat/articles/g3ruh/123.html
Sorry - I could not resist.. old AMSAT technology, almost forgotten by most people...
73s Peter DB2OS
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:02:47 +0100 "i8cvs" domenico.i8cvs@tin.it wrote:
If USSTRATCOM started charging for the use of their data that we use to track our satellites we can dowload keps from CelesTrack free for all on internet.
And Celestrak get them from... ?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon JC Pearce" gordonjcp@gjcp.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 9:46 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Charge for Satellite Tracking?
On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:02:47 +0100 "i8cvs" domenico.i8cvs@tin.it wrote:
If USSTRATCOM started charging for the use of their data that we use to track our satellites we can dowload keps from CelesTrack free for all on internet.
And Celestrak get them from... ?
-- Gordon JC Pearce MM0YEQ gordonjcp@gjcp.net
Hi Gordon,
If USSTRATCOM will charge for keps all Commercial and Scientific satellite users including the Amateur Satellite user than we will forced to pay for that keps and no way to do different but it is unlikely and as far I remember it never happen before.
Actually all keps for Commercial and Scientific satellites as well the Amateur Satellites are available for free on internet from CelesTrack
http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
----- Original Message ----- From: "Armando Mercado" am25544@triton.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 9:44 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Charge for Satellite Tracking?
Greetings,
Well, how would we feel if USSTRATCOM started charging for the use of their data that we use to track our satellites?
73, Armando N8IGJ
Hi Armando, N8IGJ
If our satellite has an onboard transponder it is possible to create the keplerian elements at a ground control station using the following method:
http://www.amsat.org/amsat/articles/g3ruh/123.html
And this is why a linear transponder is justified on board of our AMSAT satellites.
If the satellites is equipped with an apprpriate GPS system like on AO40 it's onboard computer can calculate it's position on the space and a ground control station can derive it's keplerian elements in real time and distribute it to the users via TLM messages.
ftp://rsd.gsfc.nasa.gov/pub/chesters/goesref/Moreau_GPS.pdf
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
participants (10)
-
Armando Mercado -
Dave Guimont -
David Johnson -
g.shirville＠btinternet.com -
Gordon JC Pearce -
i8cvs -
jmfranke -
KE7OSN -
Peter Guelzow -
Stefan Wagener