Re: Was: RE: Re: Fixing the FM Stompfest Now: Phase IV satellite
I see an amateur radio-equipped Geo bird over Central, South and North America as a phenomenal resource for the American Red Cross and others working disasters.
It’s not in the traditional “easy sat” category, since it will take about $1000 for a decent ground station. So I cannot anticipate it being “overloaded” by newbies.
Clint K6LCS
On Aug 8, 2022, at 12:25 PM, Gary <gary_mayfield@hotmail.com mailto:gary_mayfield@hotmail.com> wrote:
Since we are on the topic of a GEO sat. Am I the only one the questions the point of a GEO bird from a ham radio perspective? No doppler, no propagation, no antenna pointing, just set up your station and have comms with anyone in the footprint.
Hi Clint,
speaking for QO-100 it is indeed not overloaded by newbies but there are quite a number of them.
Several of them actually made their license after participating in school contacts via QO-100 e.g. with DP0GVN in Antarctica and other remote ground stations.
If you start from scratch (you do not have any TRX which can be repurposed for the IF) you are about right: an SDR based ground station for the narrowband transponder will cost you about 700 USD to build.
Add 120 USD and you can also receive the wideband transponder (DATV).
If you also want to transmit via the wideband transponder you need a bigger dish and more power, so add another 400 USD.
Kind regards
Matthias
www.dd1us.dehttp://www.dd1us.de
Von: Clint Bradford via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Gesendet: Montag, 8. August 2022 21:42 An: amsat BB amsat-bb@AMSAT.Org Betreff: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Was: RE: Re: Fixing the FM Stompfest Now: Phase IV satellite
I see an amateur radio-equipped Geo bird over Central, South and North America as a phenomenal resource for the American Red Cross and others working disasters.
It’s not in the traditional “easy sat” category, since it will take about $1000 for a decent ground station. So I cannot anticipate it being “overloaded” by newbies.
Clint K6LCS
On Aug 8, 2022, at 12:25 PM, Gary <gary_mayfield@hotmail.commailto:gary_mayfield@hotmail.com> wrote:
Since we are on the topic of a GEO sat. Am I the only one the questions the point of a GEO bird from a ham radio perspective? No doppler, no propagation, no antenna pointing, just set up your station and have comms with anyone in the footprint.
I have to question just how much of a resource an amateur radio geostationary satellite would be for emergencies. Unfortunately I cannot cite any emergency communication successes on QO-100 beyond an exercise held this past February. We are competing against other space based systems that offer familiar internet connectivity and encryption - with much lower latency. Wouldn't an emergency manager want that instead? We need a good story to tell potential funding agencies. I have not heard any arguments likely to convince a grant giving organization to green light the 8 figure sum required to fund an amateur GEO project.
de KM1P Joe
Joe,
I agree. I manage emergency communications for a county in Colorado that is rural but borders the Denver area. I also sit on several boards for state emergency communications. We have numerous communications systems and methods available to us. We regularly hold table top and the occasional field exercise. In our worst disaster we only ever get to the second layer of backups, even in the most rural and poorly serviced parts of the state. In the most recent disaster, the Marshall Fire in a Denver/Boulder suburb, we never even got to the backup system.
I cannot imagine an amateur geo transponder ever being used for our needs. The deepest I could ever see us getting into backups would be a Starlink phone, about 5 layers down. But we had an Iridium phone for about 15 years and never turned it on.
ARES participates in planning and the exercises. We have used them in a couple of situations where they were not needed at all, to try to improve skills and integration. They regularly help in events like the county fair.
What we do need, and is very hard to develop, are radio operators who can function as public safety radio operators in places like a mobile command post or EOC. We are people short, not systems or equipment short. Our responder and dispatch jargon, and methods of communication, are very different from what ARES uses. In large emergencies we need trained and experienced people, not more equipment.
Jim
WD0E
On 8/8/2022 2:44 PM, Joseph B. Fitzgerald wrote:
I have to question just how much of a resource an amateur radio geostationary satellite would be for emergencies. Unfortunately I cannot cite any emergency communication successes on QO-100 beyond an exercise held this past February. We are competing against other space based systems that offer familiar internet connectivity and encryption - with much lower latency. Wouldn't an emergency manager want that instead? We need a good story to tell potential funding agencies. I have not heard any arguments likely to convince a grant giving organization to green light the 8 figure sum required to fund an amateur GEO project.
de KM1P Joe
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This is more than a little silly. Nobody wants public service communications on a new mode before it's created.
There's something you learn in high-tech leadership. You can't innovate by asking the customer what they want. They'll generally tell you what they want today. Not what they want tomorrow.
This is why I couldn't be part of ARRL leadership when I was working to end code testing. ARRL is a representative organization, and the members didn't want it.
And when I started working on Open Source: Remember that Microsoft VP who called it a cancer?
Those two things ended up being pretty important to ham radio.
So we will work on geostationary digital amateur satellites. With total confidence that when it's time, there will be a community to use them.
Thanks
Bruce
On Mon, Aug 8, 2022, 14:37 Jim White jim@coloradosatellite.com wrote:
Joe,
I agree. I manage emergency communications for a county in Colorado that is rural but borders the Denver area. I also sit on several boards for state emergency communications. We have numerous communications systems and methods available to us. We regularly hold table top and the occasional field exercise. In our worst disaster we only ever get to the second layer of backups, even in the most rural and poorly serviced parts of the state. In the most recent disaster, the Marshall Fire in a Denver/Boulder suburb, we never even got to the backup system.
I cannot imagine an amateur geo transponder ever being used for our needs. The deepest I could ever see us getting into backups would be a Starlink phone, about 5 layers down. But we had an Iridium phone for about 15 years and never turned it on.
ARES participates in planning and the exercises. We have used them in a couple of situations where they were not needed at all, to try to improve skills and integration. They regularly help in events like the county fair.
What we do need, and is very hard to develop, are radio operators who can function as public safety radio operators in places like a mobile command post or EOC. We are people short, not systems or equipment short. Our responder and dispatch jargon, and methods of communication, are very different from what ARES uses. In large emergencies we need trained and experienced people, not more equipment.
Jim
WD0E
On 8/8/2022 2:44 PM, Joseph B. Fitzgerald wrote:
I have to question just how much of a resource an amateur radio
geostationary satellite would be for emergencies. Unfortunately I cannot cite any emergency communication successes on QO-100 beyond an exercise held this past February. We are competing against other space based systems that offer familiar internet connectivity and encryption - with much lower latency. Wouldn't an emergency manager want that instead? We need a good story to tell potential funding agencies. I have not heard any arguments likely to convince a grant giving organization to green light the 8 figure sum required to fund an amateur GEO project.
de KM1P Joe
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Bruce,
We are substantially in agreement, especially your assertion that there will be a community to use digital geostationary amateur satellites. But probably not the emergency communication community. I simply lack the imagination to see how they improve on existing alternatives in that domain. The essence of my concern is that we need to look for funding using justifications other than emergency communication - we are more likely to get funding by claiming other benefits. Let's focus our efforts where it will most likely bear fruit. That being said, if someone can use emergency communication as a justification to get funding I would be glad to look silly!
-Joe KM1P
Obviously your grant requests have to be written for the grantor's desires. And we need to transition to making education and technology the main justifications for Amateur Radio in Part 97.1, because the current ones were written when we were providing trained Morse operators to the military, and international friendship before social networks.
But I'm not quite ready to write off public service communications.
Thanks
Bruce
On Mon, Aug 8, 2022, 21:00 Joseph B. Fitzgerald jfitzgerald@alum.wpi.edu wrote:
Bruce,
We are substantially in agreement, especially your assertion that there will be a community to use digital geostationary amateur satellites. But probably not the emergency communication community. I simply lack the imagination to see how they improve on existing alternatives in that domain. The essence of my concern is that we need to look for funding using justifications other than emergency communication - we are more likely to get funding by claiming other benefits. Let's focus our efforts where it will most likely bear fruit. That being said, if someone can use emergency communication as a justification to get funding I would be glad to look silly!
-Joe KM1P
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Yeah let's not write off emergency comms as -part- of its use.
With new hams entering the ranks and most maybe not having much experience with CW, the added "repeater in the sky" that could control access to emergency channels would be much helpful.
Imagine trying to setup a portable HF station after a hurricane has bombed a region. Short antennas are not very effective. You're depending on atmospheric conditions for propagation. If the noise is high from exiting storms, other operators that have no regard for emergency comms or propagation just isn't there, then you have to somehow communicate with the other stations telling them to change bands, etc etc and hope that works.
Internet...forget it! Cellular service....forget it! In 99% of areas with a disaster...those services will be gone!
The simple ease of setting up a small ground base to satellite station is easy! I would imagine the dishes would be small...dish net or direct TV sized dishes, the equipment setup has a small foot print, low energy consumption, is easily controlled as far as other station access, you get on and start taking care of what we are there for....not having to tinker with radios, HF antennas, multiple VHF/UHF stations to form a network back to central command.
Not saying any of the aforementioned things aren't good, but with one more "device" in the "tool box", it sure would/could make things easier.
As for other uses, we're back to it being a big repeater in the sky, but it could be used with multiple digital modes.
I'm sure someone has an idea or two that would make funding even more appealing.
Some people like HF, some like VHF/UHF simplex and repeaters, some like analog, some like digital, some rather do everything via the internet, some like to tie radio and the internet together and some like satellites etc etc. What might not be of interest to one person could be of great interest to another.
Think outside of the box.
Bob Carter
MidAtlantic-Engineering-Service L.L.C.
FCC License: KC4QLP - WQJK414 - WRFT769 - RR00096040
maes-llc.com kc4qlp.com On August 9, 2022 12:20:50 AM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
Obviously your grant requests have to be written for the grantor's desires. And we need to transition to making education and technology the main justifications for Amateur Radio in Part 97.1, because the current ones were written when we were providing trained Morse operators to the military, and international friendship before social networks.
But I'm not quite ready to write off public service communications.
Thanks
Bruce
On Mon, Aug 8, 2022, 21:00 Joseph B. Fitzgerald jfitzgerald@alum.wpi.edu wrote:
Bruce,
We are substantially in agreement, especially your assertion that there will be a community to use digital geostationary amateur satellites. But probably not the emergency communication community. I simply lack the imagination to see how they improve on existing alternatives in that domain. The essence of my concern is that we need to look for funding using justifications other than emergency communication - we are more likely to get funding by claiming other benefits. Let's focus our efforts where it will most likely bear fruit. That being said, if someone can use emergency communication as a justification to get funding I would be glad to look silly!
-Joe KM1P
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"...grant requests have to be written for the grantor's desires. And we need to transition to making education and technology the main justifications for Amateur Radio in Part 97.1..."
Pardon my interruption, just reading the mail. But I agree with this having been (retired now) a university professor writing grants. I would suggest staying with education, STEM, as the primary focus to acquire funding. Just my opinion FWIW.
And someday soon I will try my hand at satellite operation. 73, Richard AG5M
An old issue, Richard.
97.1 must follow from the Radio Regulations (the governing treaty). Hams can’t operate an transmitter because they’re paid to do it.
On the other hand, if the operation has something to do with radio or the radio environment, hams can take a grant to do that sort of stuff, but the grantor can have no say in transmitter operation and all transmissions must be made so as not to hide their meaning.
None of the treaty regs or rules need to be changed.
I think a paper on this may still be on the IARU web site.
The moment we get something non-amateur in our frequency allocations, we begin to have serious problems keeping the amateur service and its bands.
73, art….. W4ART Arlington / Reston VA
On Aug 9, 2022, at 11:28 AM, Richard AG5M via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
"...grant requests have to be written for the grantor's desires. And we need to transition to making education and technology the main justifications for Amateur Radio in Part 97.1..."
Pardon my interruption, just reading the mail. But I agree with this having been (retired now) a university professor writing grants. I would suggest staying with education, STEM, as the primary focus to acquire funding. Just my opinion FWIW.
And someday soon I will try my hand at satellite operation. 73, Richard AG5M
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To thrive in life, you need three bones: a wish bone, a back bone, and a funny bone. - Reba McEntire
"The simple ease of setting up a small ground base to satellite station is easy! "
Exactly. Consider Starlink. To set it up is roughly:
1) Set the little antenna array outside somewhere with a clear view of the sky. 2) Run the Ethernet cable to some convenient place to put the WiFi router. 3) Apply power to the router and have a coffee while the array figures out where to point itself and establishes contact with the satellite constellation.
About the time you finish the coffee, your people, including those that are on your payroll, can start exchanging information with whoever they want using the applications they use every day. By the way those applications are almost universally encrypted, so there are no concerns about sending sensitive medical, security or financial information in the clear.
Can we do at least as well as that?
de KM1P Joe
Can we do at least as well as that?
All those apps make no consideration to shouting out your grid square at auctioneer speeds to win stickers and certificates ;-)
The Starlink option is interesting. No technology push from the ham community. Just technology pull utilizing existing infrastructure. A nice added feature in your shack or mobile. The bands are dead ? Play a little Starlink for a fee. ( Or no fee, if they are still looking for Beta testers.)
Bernard, KC9SGV
On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 1:18 PM JoAnne Maenpaa joanne.k9jkm@gmail.com wrote:
Can we do at least as well as that?
All those apps make no consideration to shouting out your grid square at auctioneer speeds to win stickers and certificates ;-)
-- 73 de JoAnne K9JKM joanne.k9jkm@gmail.com BM DMR TG 98006
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Starlink… $600 startup cost. $110/month service fee. Comparable to Rent-A-GEO. https://www.starlink.com/
Bernard, KC9SGV
On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 9:32 PM KC9SGV kc9sgv@gmail.com wrote:
The Starlink option is interesting. No technology push from the ham community. Just technology pull utilizing existing infrastructure. A nice added feature in your shack or mobile. The bands are dead ? Play a little Starlink for a fee. ( Or no fee, if they are still looking for Beta testers.)
Bernard, KC9SGV
On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 1:18 PM JoAnne Maenpaa joanne.k9jkm@gmail.com wrote:
Can we do at least as well as that?
All those apps make no consideration to shouting out your grid square at auctioneer speeds to win stickers and certificates ;-)
-- 73 de JoAnne K9JKM joanne.k9jkm@gmail.com BM DMR TG 98006
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For those who don't know about Starlink.
I have a Starlink terminal for my remote shack about 45 minutes south of Klamath Falls. This is 10 acres that cost me a whole $4000 a while back, at the end of a dirt road. The shack is a 40-foot hi-cube container. The available connections are cellular (9 miles to the tower) or Starlink.
Starlink works there, it's fully open sky in three directions and a hill in the fourth. North is most important, in the Northern hemisphere, because most of the satellites are on inclined equatorial orbits and there are more of them at the polar ends of the orbit at any particular time.
At my home in Berkleley, with lots of redwood trees around, Starlink is still interrupted, but less than 6 months ago, and as they put up more polar orbits this will probably end.
The Starlink earth station that would relay to my remote site is in Tionesta, California - pretty much the middle of nowhere. I suspect this is at the end of hundreds of miles of fiber run along roads or railroad rights of way. Which would be fire-prone, so I don't expect this station to have 100% uptime.
The second generation of Starlink satellites, just starting to be launched, have optical communications and can relay to each other at high bandwidth. So, potentially the network stays up for government when stations are disabled, but I don't expect that regular users will have priority. Starlink can already de-prioritize your terminal in favor of other users when you are not in your registered location.
Joe,
QO-100 as an example is not so easy as Startlink and that’s the real fun, I take this opportunity to describe more the operations, challenges and opportunities on QO-100 (or similar future birds):
1) Generally repurposed SAT-TV dishes are used on QO-100 and has to be pointed manually, this is a challenge for newbies and even fort more experienced OM,s who have not worked at microwave frequencies as it should be pointed precisely. Some struggled for week just to point their antenna correctly. No beam forming antenna as with Starlink. May be in the future, a nice project ti work on. 2) The LNB is also generrally a repurposed KU-band SAT-TV, even the PLL ones are sometimes up to 1Mhz draft off, when QO-100 transponders was commissioned and the only way to have a stable frequency at that time was to modify the LNB and inject a GPS or TXCO clock. This was quite challenging for many OM’s. Thanks to SDR Console (Simon -G4ELI) it is now possible to use his software which is compensating for the drift by using the beacon as reference. Both solutions also require a minimum of leaning curve and practice. 3) As regards the TX side it is not just buying a transverter for 2.5 GHz or TX capable SDR, but much more as one will have to look at all the chain with the challenges of high losses at that frequency band to find the right solution for his own environment. Basically constructing a TX as in the old good day, this was my feeling when constructing my station. It is quite interesting to see how the OM’s have been inventive on this front and that so many solutions now available but still a newbie on QO-100 will have to build something, it is not just plug and play as seems to be the opinion of some. 4) Now that one got his setup working, probably after a few week of trial an error, even if guided, for the NB (narrow band) transponder a new world is open and he can do most of things we do on other bands and experiment many things such as CW, SSB, digital modes etc. but some do much more experimentation such as new data modes or orbit determination such as Daniel (EA1GPZ) (see vastest: https://twitter.com/ea4gpz/status/1556745194732752896 https://twitter.com/ea4gpz/status/1556745194732752896 ), there are much more going on such as experimental data transmission etc… Basically, I am saying that QO-100 enables all aspect of the hobby from just chats with friends to very sophisticated technical experimentations. Just a great playground fully in the radio amateur spirit. 5) The WB (Wideband) transponder is offering much more opportunities for experimenting and trying new modes such as ATV, wideband data etc… For me personally my first ever DATV contact was made through the bird, not going into the technical details I can say that it is quite more challenging to make a DATV QSO at 2MS on QO-100 that on a LEO FM bird. Thus for those who want some technical challenges just go for it.
In a nutshell I totally disagree that with some statement that QO-100 (or eventually other similar GEO birds) are just plug and play not in the HAM spirit. It is actually the contrary as one will have to build his station from scratch and have a world of opportunities to experiment things and also challenge his own technical limits, thus a lot learnings.
Another 1 cent input.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 9, 2022, at 8:58 PM, Joseph B. Fitzgerald jfitzgerald@alum.wpi.edu wrote:
"The simple ease of setting up a small ground base to satellite station is easy! "
Exactly. Consider Starlink. To set it up is roughly:
- Set the little antenna array outside somewhere with a clear view of the sky.
- Run the Ethernet cable to some convenient place to put the WiFi router.
- Apply power to the router and have a coffee while the array figures out where to point itself and establishes contact with the satellite constellation.
About the time you finish the coffee, your people, including those that are on your payroll, can start exchanging information with whoever they want using the applications they use every day. By the way those applications are almost universally encrypted, so there are no concerns about sending sensitive medical, security or financial information in the clear.
Can we do at least as well as that?
de KM1P Joe
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Jean Marc:
I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that QO-100 is very much in the Ham Spirit and it would be wonderful for North and South America to be in the footprint of a similar bird. The essence of my position is that we in this hemisphere should focus on the science and technology training and international good will aspects of a GEO mission as I believe those areas will benefit the most, and likely gather the most resources.
GEO or BUST!
de KM1P Joe
All, My post above about Starlink refers. While it is not GEO in the ham sense, some other possibilities come to mind. Now it is conceivably possible to operate EchoLink stations remotely from the boonies. Also, it will be possible to operate a number of remote HF stations via Starlink VOIP and Remotehams.com All of this can already be done via the Internet of course, provided you have a fast Internet connection at home in the city.
Just stating the obvious.
Bernard KC9SGV Chicago.
On Thu, Aug 11, 2022 at 12:15 AM Joseph B. Fitzgerald < jfitzgerald@alum.wpi.edu> wrote:
Jean Marc:
I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that QO-100 is very much in the Ham Spirit and it would be wonderful for North and South America to be in the footprint of a similar bird. The essence of my position is that we in this hemisphere should focus on the science and technology training and international good will aspects of a GEO mission as I believe those areas will benefit the most, and likely gather the most resources.
GEO or BUST!
de KM1P Joe
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On 8/11/22 08:13, KC9SGV wrote:
All of this can already be done via the Internet of course, provided you have a fast Internet connection at home in the city.
That, in my opinion, is the problem: We should not rely on the Internet (big I) for transmitting information or controlling stations.
We have an amazing amount of bandwidth which is lying fallow other than the occasional lonely FM repeater ID. Where is the ham mesh network that is built up, organically, by everyday hams putting nodes at their houses, on towers, on their vehicles, etc? 1.25m, 33cm, and 23cm bands are great targets for this sort of network, as we don't share them with common consumer WiFi devices.
Amateur radio operators should strive to create our own network, independent of the commercial Internet. AREDN is a good start, but there is much more that could be done for a general-purpose Amateur Radio internet (small I).
Part of my motivation for joining AMSAT was to encourage this direction in our space segment of the hobby.
--- Zach N0ZGO
Zach,
Fully agree, using Starlink or other commercial transponder will not achieve much as what we really need is open transponder on HAM bands enabling experimentations, many modes, education etc..
Fully agree that we have the bandwidth and if we don’t use it it will be eventually be taken away by commercial operations.
I would be really happy if all the main AMSAT leader organisation worldwide (DL, FR, NA, UK, J etc... sit together and agree on a common goal and a consolidated plan for the future (may be GEO or HEO, whatever), pulling all our worldwide resources together to achieve same, the smaller organisations will surely follow. If not, with the actual trend we will be surely out of the space segment soon. United globally we may do great things such as a constellation providing worldwide coverage independent of the internet or commercial networks.
Just sharing a dream….
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 11, 2022, at 5:52 PM, Zach Metzinger zmetzing@pobox.com wrote:
On 8/11/22 08:13, KC9SGV wrote:
All of this can already be done via the Internet of course, provided you have a fast Internet connection at home in the city.
That, in my opinion, is the problem: We should not rely on the Internet (big I) for transmitting information or controlling stations.
We have an amazing amount of bandwidth which is lying fallow other than the occasional lonely FM repeater ID. Where is the ham mesh network that is built up, organically, by everyday hams putting nodes at their houses, on towers, on their vehicles, etc? 1.25m, 33cm, and 23cm bands are great targets for this sort of network, as we don't share them with common consumer WiFi devices.
Amateur radio operators should strive to create our own network, independent of the commercial Internet. AREDN is a good start, but there is much more that could be done for a general-purpose Amateur Radio internet (small I).
Part of my motivation for joining AMSAT was to encourage this direction in our space segment of the hobby.
--- Zach N0ZGO
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With the recent success of Capstone and the Rocket Lab Photon spacecraft, it may be possible to put a transponder on a Photon mission to GEO at a sensible cost. Rocket Lab have recently updated their web page to show what Photon can do. See: https://www.rocketlabusa.com/space-systems/photon/
I was tracking Capstone/Photon up until the final burn and watching the footprint expand with each burn. It was most impressive compared to our current birds. See attached. By the way I don't work for Rocket Lab but if I was 40 years younger.............
73, Terry Osborne ZL2BAC AMSAT-NA 6489
On 12/08/2022 4:18 am, Jean Marc Momple wrote:
Zach,
Fully agree, using Starlink or other commercial transponder will not achieve much as what we really need is open transponder on HAM bands enabling experimentations, many modes, education etc..
Fully agree that we have the bandwidth and if we don’t use it it will be eventually be taken away by commercial operations.
I would be really happy if all the main AMSAT leader organisation worldwide (DL, FR, NA, UK, J etc... sit together and agree on a common goal and a consolidated plan for the future (may be GEO or HEO, whatever), pulling all our worldwide resources together to achieve same, the smaller organisations will surely follow. If not, with the actual trend we will be surely out of the space segment soon. United globally we may do great things such as a constellation providing worldwide coverage independent of the internet or commercial networks.
Just sharing a dream….
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
On Aug 11, 2022, at 5:52 PM, Zach Metzinger zmetzing@pobox.com wrote:
On 8/11/22 08:13, KC9SGV wrote:
All of this can already be done via the Internet of course, provided you have a fast Internet connection at home in the city.
That, in my opinion, is the problem: We should not rely on the Internet (big I) for transmitting information or controlling stations.
We have an amazing amount of bandwidth which is lying fallow other than the occasional lonely FM repeater ID. Where is the ham mesh network that is built up, organically, by everyday hams putting nodes at their houses, on towers, on their vehicles, etc? 1.25m, 33cm, and 23cm bands are great targets for this sort of network, as we don't share them with common consumer WiFi devices.
Amateur radio operators should strive to create our own network, independent of the commercial Internet. AREDN is a good start, but there is much more that could be done for a general-purpose Amateur Radio internet (small I).
Part of my motivation for joining AMSAT was to encourage this direction in our space segment of the hobby.
--- Zach N0ZGO
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I totally agree with Joe. In my opinion, since AO40, I don't think the birds are that fun. I am more of a rag-chewer not a contester. I don't much care for a 5 minute QSO. I have been waiting for AMSAT to actually get a GOLF if not a GEO bird up there so I could have a 30 minute QSO. Just my opinion. de WA5QAP ---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
From: "Joseph B. Fitzgerald" jfitzgerald@alum.wpi.edu
Date: Thu, August 11, 2022 5:14 am
To: "Jean Marc Momple" jean.marc.momple@gmail.com
Cc: "AMSAT BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jean Marc:
I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that QO-100 is very much in the Ham Spirit and it would be wonderful for North and South America to be in the footprint of a similar bird. The essence of my position is that we in this hemisphere should focus on the science and technology training and
international good will aspects of a GEO mission as I believe those areas will benefit the most, and likely gather the most resources.
GEO or BUST!
de KM1P Joe
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I'm in agreement with Jim. Back in the day, I had a lot of fun on AO10 and AO13. Real QSOs, real DX.
I recently built up a satellite station again, hearing that the linear LEOs had real QSOs on them. I'm a bit disappointed. There is an occasional 5 Minute QSO, but it is still mostly Hi and Bye. I'd like to see something with the capability of a regular QSO.
The last P4 that went up, tried to cover too many bases IMO. Lots of bands, lots of complexity. Then it failed. Just put up a simple U/V mode sat with some chance of success.
George WB6YZZ
On Thu, Aug 11, 2022 at 9:07 AM jim@beeson.cc wrote:
I totally agree with Joe. In my opinion, since AO40, I don't think the birds are that fun. I am more of a rag-chewer not a contester. I don't much care for a 5 minute QSO. I have been waiting for AMSAT to actually get a GOLF if not a GEO bird up there so I could have a 30 minute QSO. Just my opinion.
de WA5QAP ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite From: "Joseph B. Fitzgerald" jfitzgerald@alum.wpi.edu Date: Thu, August 11, 2022 5:14 am To: "Jean Marc Momple" jean.marc.momple@gmail.com Cc: "AMSAT BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org
Jean Marc:
I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that QO-100 is very much in the Ham
Spirit and it would be wonderful for North and South America to be in the footprint of a similar bird. The essence of my position is that we in this hemisphere should focus on the science and technology training and international good will aspects of a GEO mission as I believe those areas will benefit the most, and likely gather the most resources.
GEO or BUST!
de KM1P Joe
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Opinions expressed
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AMSAT-NA.
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Back in the 1980s, then FCC Private Radio Bureau Chief Carlos V. Roberts spoke to "CQ" magazine about the Amateur Radio Service where he stated:
"I think the service should be devoted to technical achievement and experimentation. Many of the other activities that amateurs engage in can be done in other personal radio services, but technical experimentation is, and should remain, limited to the amateur service."
Today we can extend the phrase "other personal radio services" to include Internet and cellular services as well.
So, what could we do in a geostationary orbit that won't simply be a duplication or an enhancement over what's already been done for decades?
I think it would be neat to have the equivalent of a WebSDR in geostationary orbit to see exactly what can be received well beyond the Earth's ionosphere. The results could be rather surprising...
73 de John, KD2BD
John,
That quote reminds me of this blog reposted to Hackaday:
Ham Radio Needs To Embrace The Hacker Community Now More Than Ever
https://www.kj7nzl.net/blog/ham-radio-needs-to-embrace-the-hacker-community-...
On Thu, Aug 11, 2022 at 12:54 PM John Magliacane via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Back in the 1980s, then FCC Private Radio Bureau Chief Carlos V. Roberts spoke to "CQ" magazine about the Amateur Radio Service where he stated:
"I think the service should be devoted to technical achievement and experimentation. Many of the other activities that amateurs engage in can be done in other personal radio services, but technical experimentation is, and should remain, limited to the amateur service."
Today we can extend the phrase "other personal radio services" to include Internet and cellular services as well.
So, what could we do in a geostationary orbit that won't simply be a duplication or an enhancement over what's already been done for decades?
I think it would be neat to have the equivalent of a WebSDR in geostationary orbit to see exactly what can be received well beyond the Earth's ionosphere. The results could be rather surprising...
73 de John, KD2BD
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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What does it take to push a craft in GTO to GEO ? I guess that there is a single thruster involved. Do you think any lab will donate one? The GTOs should be relatively inexpensive to get to. I can't see why Icoms and Yaseuas ant loosen their purse strings for a project like this. I have heard that they sold in excess of 20,000 IC-7300 last year alone. That is just one of their radios, and that is just one company. Then there is everyone from the tiny HF signals all the way to Kenwoods and Yaesu. Hams have patronized their products for long, at times, well past their sell-by-date. The FT817 was kept alive mostly by the sat operators. If each picks up a million dollar ticket, with matching grants, 10 M USD isnt a big deal. It is also big business for them. An 8 MHz slice of space spectrum could otherwise cost them a few times over. - f
On Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 4:15 AM Brian Wilkins bwilkins@gmail.com wrote:
John,
That quote reminds me of this blog reposted to Hackaday:
Ham Radio Needs To Embrace The Hacker Community Now More Than Ever
https://www.kj7nzl.net/blog/ham-radio-needs-to-embrace-the-hacker-community-...
On Thu, Aug 11, 2022 at 12:54 PM John Magliacane via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Back in the 1980s, then FCC Private Radio Bureau Chief Carlos V. Roberts spoke to "CQ" magazine about the Amateur Radio Service where he stated:
"I think the service should be devoted to technical achievement and experimentation. Many of the other activities that amateurs engage in can be done in other personal radio services, but technical experimentation is, and should remain, limited to the amateur service."
Today we can extend the phrase "other personal radio services" to include Internet and cellular services as well.
So, what could we do in a geostationary orbit that won't simply be a duplication or an enhancement over what's already been done for decades?
I think it would be neat to have the equivalent of a WebSDR in geostationary orbit to see exactly what can be received well beyond the Earth's ionosphere. The results could be rather surprising...
73 de John, KD2BD
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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-- Brian Wilkins KO4AQF
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The biggest thing it takes is getting a ride. If you were hitch hiking would you be able to get a ride if you had a sign “Destination GTO and have to carry this large bomb with me”.
You have to also take enough fuel (bigger bomb) to keep you in one spot for many years. You have a large ratio between the fuel (grams) needed to get you to GTO and the amount required in your slot. Your slot in space is moving at a high velocity with changing gravity, other forces, and a driver that has to make constant adjustments.
You have to have the ability to develop the systems by having the people or paying for it also. AMSAT has lost some key people which helped with this in the past.
AMSAT has lost spacecraft due to issues with rocket engines.
Bob N5BRG
On Aug 13, 2022, at 1:37 AM, Ashhar Farhan <farhanbox@gmail.commailto:farhanbox@gmail.com> wrote:
What does it take to push a craft in GTO to GEO ? I guess that there is a single thruster involved. Do you think any lab will donate one? The GTOs should be relatively inexpensive to get to. I can't see why Icoms and Yaseuas ant loosen their purse strings for a project like this. I have heard that they sold in excess of 20,000 IC-7300 last year alone. That is just one of their radios, and that is just one company. Then there is everyone from the tiny HF signals all the way to Kenwoods and Yaesu. Hams have patronized their products for long, at times, well past their sell-by-date. The FT817 was kept alive mostly by the sat operators. If each picks up a million dollar ticket, with matching grants, 10 M USD isnt a big deal. It is also big business for them. An 8 MHz slice of space spectrum could otherwise cost them a few times over. - f
On Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 4:15 AM Brian Wilkins <bwilkins@gmail.commailto:bwilkins@gmail.com> wrote: John,
That quote reminds me of this blog reposted to Hackaday:
Ham Radio Needs To Embrace The Hacker Community Now More Than Ever
https://www.kj7nzl.net/blog/ham-radio-needs-to-embrace-the-hacker-community-...
On Thu, Aug 11, 2022 at 12:54 PM John Magliacane via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@amsat.orgmailto:amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote: Back in the 1980s, then FCC Private Radio Bureau Chief Carlos V. Roberts spoke to "CQ" magazine about the Amateur Radio Service where he stated:
"I think the service should be devoted to technical achievement and experimentation. Many of the other activities that amateurs engage in can be done in other personal radio services, but technical experimentation is, and should remain, limited to the amateur service."
Today we can extend the phrase "other personal radio services" to include Internet and cellular services as well.
So, what could we do in a geostationary orbit that won't simply be a duplication or an enhancement over what's already been done for decades?
I think it would be neat to have the equivalent of a WebSDR in geostationary orbit to see exactly what can be received well beyond the Earth's ionosphere. The results could be rather surprising...
73 de John, KD2BD
-----------------------------------------------------------
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.orghttp://amsat.org/. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.orghttp://amsat.org/ Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.orghttps://mailman.amsat.org/ -- Brian Wilkins KO4AQF
-----------------------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------------------------------
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Hi Ashhar / group
Geostationary Transfer Orbit is a good starting point for a ride share, but adjusting the orbit with a single burn at apogee to give you a Geostationary orbit may not be the best choice, or even possible / desirable, with a limited budget.An alternative would be to launch a cubesat style satellite to GTO and raise the perigee just enough to make the lifetime comply with the debris mitigation rules. After 15 years or so it burns up at perigee.With an orbit from 35,000km down to 800km, a linear transponder could be used with current phone technology (SSB) during the lower part of the orbit. At higher altitudes where the limited link budget, say 4W, is insufficient for the typical SSB + LEO pack, operators could use digital comms (think of another mode being added to WSJT-X) to overcome the path loss.It would inspire some to improve their standard antennas and preamps so they can extend the range of CW/SSB QSOs up a sat altitude of around 10,000km. While at the highest altitudes, another group, more interested in weak signal digital comms, could communicate / develop software and techniques for the future. 73 David G0MRF
-----Original Message----- From: Ashhar Farhan farhanbox@gmail.com To: Brian Wilkins bwilkins@gmail.com CC: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 6:37 Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
What does it take to push a craft in GTO to GEO ? I guess that there is a single thruster involved. Do you think any lab will donate one?The GTOs should be relatively inexpensive to get to. I can't see why Icoms and Yaseuas ant loosen their purse strings for a project like this. I have heard that they sold in excess of 20,000 IC-7300 last year alone. That is just one of their radios, and that is just one company. Then there is everyone from the tiny HF signals all the way to Kenwoods and Yaesu. Hams have patronized their products for long, at times, well past their sell-by-date. The FT817 was kept alive mostly by the sat operators.If each picks up a million dollar ticket, with matching grants, 10 M USD isnt a big deal. It is also big business for them. An 8 MHz slice of space spectrum could otherwise cost them a few times over.- f
Mission risk is too high with a single thruster, and also attitude control with only reaction wheels needs alternate means of desaturation.
So the Bricsat-p and Canyval-X systems are appropriate pathfinder with arrays of micro thrusters and use in conjuction with reaction wheels.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S21 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone Get Outlook for Androidhttps://aka.ms/AAb9ysg ________________________________ From: Ashhar Farhan farhanbox@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 2:37:48 AM To: Brian Wilkins bwilkins@gmail.com Cc: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite
What does it take to push a craft in GTO to GEO ? I guess that there is a single thruster involved. Do you think any lab will donate one? The GTOs should be relatively inexpensive to get to. I can't see why Icoms and Yaseuas ant loosen their purse strings for a project like this. I have heard that they sold in excess of 20,000 IC-7300 last year alone. That is just one of their radios, and that is just one company. Then there is everyone from the tiny HF signals all the way to Kenwoods and Yaesu. Hams have patronized their products for long, at times, well past their sell-by-date. The FT817 was kept alive mostly by the sat operators. If each picks up a million dollar ticket, with matching grants, 10 M USD isnt a big deal. It is also big business for them. An 8 MHz slice of space spectrum could otherwise cost them a few times over. - f
On Sat, Aug 13, 2022, 4:15 AM Brian Wilkins <bwilkins@gmail.commailto:bwilkins@gmail.com> wrote: John,
That quote reminds me of this blog reposted to Hackaday:
Ham Radio Needs To Embrace The Hacker Community Now More Than Ever
https://www.kj7nzl.net/blog/ham-radio-needs-to-embrace-the-hacker-community-...
On Thu, Aug 11, 2022 at 12:54 PM John Magliacane via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@amsat.orgmailto:amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote: Back in the 1980s, then FCC Private Radio Bureau Chief Carlos V. Roberts spoke to "CQ" magazine about the Amateur Radio Service where he stated:
"I think the service should be devoted to technical achievement and experimentation. Many of the other activities that amateurs engage in can be done in other personal radio services, but technical experimentation is, and should remain, limited to the amateur service."
Today we can extend the phrase "other personal radio services" to include Internet and cellular services as well.
So, what could we do in a geostationary orbit that won't simply be a duplication or an enhancement over what's already been done for decades?
I think it would be neat to have the equivalent of a WebSDR in geostationary orbit to see exactly what can be received well beyond the Earth's ionosphere. The results could be rather surprising...
73 de John, KD2BD
-----------------------------------------------------------
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.orghttp://amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.orghttp://amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org -- Brian Wilkins KO4AQF
-----------------------------------------------------------
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.orghttp://amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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On Fri, Aug 12, 2022 at 11:38 PM Ashhar Farhan farhanbox@gmail.com wrote:
What does it take to push a craft in GTO to GEO ? I guess that there is a single thruster involved. Do you think any lab will donate one?
If you remember Oscar 40, that was how we blew up the satellite. We can do this but it is the highest risk part.
I can't see why Icoms and Yaseus can't loosen their purse strings for a project like this.
It's actually been really startling the extent to which Yaesu and ICOM are aloof from any technology that hams are developing themselves, at least in this hemisphere. I have never met a design engineer from either company, because they don't come to our technical conferences. And I think you should look at where they have historically made donations, and what the size of them was. They donate radios to the raffles at hamfests, mainly. Elecraft and Flexradio are happy to talk with us but are not rich, especially not now with component shortages. It's easy to get to know *their *CEOs and design engineers.
I think ARDC would be a more likely source. They are well able to pay for a credible satellite program and its ride. We have not presented them with one yet.
Thanks
Bruce
On Friday, August 12, 2022, 06:44:38 PM EDT, Brian Wilkins bwilkins@gmail.com wrote:
John,
That quote reminds me of this blog reposted to Hackaday:
Ham Radio Needs To Embrace The Hacker Community Now More Than Ever
https://www.kj7nzl.net/blog/ham-radio-needs-to-embrace-the-hacker-community-...
I agree, Brian.
Lately more then ever, I have adopted an "NSH" philosophy regarding Amateur Radio: Never Say Hobby! I view hobbies as being strictly personal endeavors. Within hobbies, there are no expectations beyond personal goals, and hobbies are never intended to benefit the whole of society.
Amateur Radio is different. We are formally defined, both locally and internationally. We have a basis and we have a purpose. We collaborate and communicate. We contribute to the state of the radio art at our own pace and in our own unique way. In the U.S., Part 97.1 provides guidance as to the accomplishments the Commission expects of the Service, and the ITU definition of Amateur Radio follows this language closely.
While I consider emergency communications and international goodwill as important benefits the Amateur Radio Service brings to society, I see them as merely the natural tertiary effects of our technical experimentation and innovation. In other words, you can't have Part 97.1(a) and (e) without having (b), (c), and (d).
AMSAT "gets" this. Satellites don't get launched, valuable spectrum doesn't get allocated, and astronauts don't perform EVAs to support a "hobby". In fact, last year when NASA released its "Best Space Station Science Pictures of 2021", it recognized Amateur Radio on the International Space Station (ARISS) as a science education and research program. (In case you missed it: https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/news/best-space-station-...).
Bravo!
73 de John, KD2BD
I have to chime in. We need a linear transponder with U/V or V/U. All the FM birds are fine for one quick QSO at a time - Hi/Bye. I used to regularly work through the FO-29 bird and the Russian sats. solid QSOs. I really enjoyed it. U/V is easy to setup antennas for. IMHO... Doug -- K0DXV
On 8/11/2022 10:20 AM, George LaBelle wrote:
I'm in agreement with Jim. Back in the day, I had a lot of fun on AO10 and AO13. Real QSOs, real DX.
I recently built up a satellite station again, hearing that the linear LEOs had real QSOs on them. I'm a bit disappointed. There is an occasional 5 Minute QSO, but it is still mostly Hi and Bye. I'd like to see something with the capability of a regular QSO.
The last P4 that went up, tried to cover too many bases IMO. Lots of bands, lots of complexity. Then it failed. Just put up a simple U/V mode sat with some chance of success.
George WB6YZZ
On Thu, Aug 11, 2022 at 9:07 AM jim@beeson.cc wrote:
I totally agree with Joe. In my opinion, since AO40, I don't think the birds are that fun. I am more of a rag-chewer not a contester. I don't much care for a 5 minute QSO. I have been waiting for AMSAT to actually get a GOLF if not a GEO bird up there so I could have a 30 minute QSO. Just my opinion. de WA5QAP ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite From: "Joseph B. Fitzgerald" <jfitzgerald@alum.wpi.edu> Date: Thu, August 11, 2022 5:14 am To: "Jean Marc Momple" <jean.marc.momple@gmail.com> Cc: "AMSAT BB" <amsat-bb@amsat.org> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jean Marc: > > I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that QO-100 is very much in the Ham Spirit and it would be wonderful for North and South America to be in the footprint of a similar bird. The essence of my position is that we in this hemisphere should focus on the science and technology training and international good will aspects of a GEO mission as I believe those areas will benefit the most, and likely gather the most resources. > > GEO or BUST! > > de KM1P Joe > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org <http://amsat.org>. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. > Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/ > > View archives of this mailing list at > https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org > To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org <http://amsat.org> > Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org > ----------------------------------------------------------- Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org <http://amsat.org>. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/ View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org <http://amsat.org> Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org--
*/I can calculate the movement of the stars, but not the madness of men. Sir Isaac Newton/*
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Hi Doug, Interesting to follow this thread.... We have a project to fly an old fashioned satellite with a linear transponder..... Unfortunately the science project for this bird is no longer relevant, and we are restricted to a 500km orbit ....
So in summary we can’t support the science payload and the footprint for comms would be relatively small....
Shortly we reach a go/no go point for the project, and to be honest the logical thing to do would be to not put in any more time effort and money..... However this bird does sport real amateur payload.... similar technologies c.f. early AMSAT satellites like AO-7
So my question for the group..... would an old fashioned linear transponder and a 1296 option warrant us continue grinding away at this mountain? Bearing in mind the low altitudes and small footprint....
All the best, Rob ZL2IW
Sent from my iPhone
On 13/08/2022, at 06:35, Doug Person doug@k0dxv.com wrote:
I have to chime in. We need a linear transponder with U/V or V/U. All the FM birds are fine for one quick QSO at a time - Hi/Bye. I used to regularly work through the FO-29 bird and the Russian sats. solid QSOs. I really enjoyed it. U/V is easy to setup antennas for. IMHO... Doug -- K0DXV
On 8/11/2022 10:20 AM, George LaBelle wrote: I'm in agreement with Jim. Back in the day, I had a lot of fun on AO10 and AO13. Real QSOs, real DX.
I recently built up a satellite station again, hearing that the linear LEOs had real QSOs on them. I'm a bit disappointed. There is an occasional 5 Minute QSO, but it is still mostly Hi and Bye. I'd like to see something with the capability of a regular QSO.
The last P4 that went up, tried to cover too many bases IMO. Lots of bands, lots of complexity. Then it failed. Just put up a simple U/V mode sat with some chance of success.
George WB6YZZ
On Thu, Aug 11, 2022 at 9:07 AM jim@beeson.cc wrote: I totally agree with Joe. In my opinion, since AO40, I don't think the birds are that fun. I am more of a rag-chewer not a contester. I don't much care for a 5 minute QSO. I have been waiting for AMSAT to actually get a GOLF if not a GEO bird up there so I could have a 30 minute QSO. Just my opinion.
de WA5QAP ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite From: "Joseph B. Fitzgerald" jfitzgerald@alum.wpi.edu Date: Thu, August 11, 2022 5:14 am To: "Jean Marc Momple" jean.marc.momple@gmail.com Cc: "AMSAT BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org
Jean Marc:
I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that QO-100 is very much in the Ham Spirit and it would be wonderful for North and South America to be in the footprint of a similar bird. The essence of my position is that we in this hemisphere should focus on the science and technology training and international good will aspects of a GEO mission as I believe those areas will benefit the most, and likely gather the most resources.
GEO or BUST!
de KM1P Joe
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I can calculate the movement of the stars, but not the madness of men. Sir Isaac Newton
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An interesting thread indeed.
For me, SAT operation was a way for me to learn new technologies and operating practices. That’s a big part of ham radio that I enjoy, having started out in 1957 with an AT-1 transmitter, an S-38 receiver, and a dipole antenna.
If we going to be limited to LEO sats, at least for a while, how about one with an X-band downlink and an S-band uplink, like QO-100. I’d love to learn how to put together a station like the QO-100 ops have had to do—probably mistakes and frustration along the way, but a fun learning experience too. Maybe even good training for that day when NA ops have that GEO in the sky?
I need to explore existing linear sats with other than U and V modes. Will I find reasonable activity on those birds, those of you who have moved beyond U/V and V/U?
Wes NA1ME
On Fri, Aug 12, 2022 at 5:53 PM Rob Carter rob.zl2iw@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Doug, Interesting to follow this thread.... We have a project to fly an old fashioned satellite with a linear transponder..... Unfortunately the science project for this bird is no longer relevant, and we are restricted to a 500km orbit ....
So in summary we can’t support the science payload and the footprint for comms would be relatively small....
Shortly we reach a go/no go point for the project, and to be honest the logical thing to do would be to not put in any more time effort and money..... However this bird does sport real amateur payload.... similar technologies c.f. early AMSAT satellites like AO-7
So my question for the group..... would an old fashioned linear transponder and a 1296 option warrant us continue grinding away at this mountain? Bearing in mind the low altitudes and small footprint....
All the best, Rob ZL2IW
Sent from my iPhone
On 13/08/2022, at 06:35, Doug Person doug@k0dxv.com wrote:
I have to chime in. We need a linear transponder with U/V or V/U. All the FM birds are fine for one quick QSO at a time - Hi/Bye. I used to regularly work through the FO-29 bird and the Russian sats. solid QSOs. I really enjoyed it. U/V is easy to setup antennas for. IMHO... Doug -- K0DXV On 8/11/2022 10:20 AM, George LaBelle wrote:
I'm in agreement with Jim. Back in the day, I had a lot of fun on AO10 and AO13. Real QSOs, real DX.
I recently built up a satellite station again, hearing that the linear LEOs had real QSOs on them. I'm a bit disappointed. There is an occasional 5 Minute QSO, but it is still mostly Hi and Bye. I'd like to see something with the capability of a regular QSO.
The last P4 that went up, tried to cover too many bases IMO. Lots of bands, lots of complexity. Then it failed. Just put up a simple U/V mode sat with some chance of success.
George WB6YZZ
On Thu, Aug 11, 2022 at 9:07 AM jim@beeson.cc wrote:
I totally agree with Joe. In my opinion, since AO40, I don't think the birds are that fun. I am more of a rag-chewer not a contester. I don't much care for a 5 minute QSO. I have been waiting for AMSAT to actually get a GOLF if not a GEO bird up there so I could have a 30 minute QSO. Just my opinion.
de WA5QAP ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: Phase IV satellite From: "Joseph B. Fitzgerald" jfitzgerald@alum.wpi.edu Date: Thu, August 11, 2022 5:14 am To: "Jean Marc Momple" jean.marc.momple@gmail.com Cc: "AMSAT BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org
Jean Marc:
I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that QO-100 is very much in the
Ham Spirit and it would be wonderful for North and South America to be in the footprint of a similar bird. The essence of my position is that we in this hemisphere should focus on the science and technology training and international good will aspects of a GEO mission as I believe those areas will benefit the most, and likely gather the most resources.
GEO or BUST!
de KM1P Joe
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Opinions expressed
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of AMSAT-NA.
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--
*I can calculate the movement of the stars, but not the madness of men. Sir Isaac Newton*
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On 2022-08-12 5:53 p.m., Rob Carter wrote: would an old fashioned linear transponder and a 1296 option warrant us continue grinding away at this mountain?
YES !!!
From the first time I heard Oscar-6 I kept working them all changing equipment as I went along to use whatever was up there. Yes I miss AO-40, but the ones up there now I try to use daily. I am not on the FM birds much because it is hard to figure out calls with the rapid fire speech of operators. I would welcome something like AO7 to use for QSOs that form friendships over time, something the digital (FT8 type) cant do.
Yep I am an old gieser that starts most sentences with "I remember when" but I remember the old birds and miss them dearly, so if another AO7 is possible you have my vote and support.
On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 8:52 AM Arthur Feller via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
97.1 must follow from the Radio Regulations (the governing treaty). Hams can’t operate an transmitter because they’re paid to do it.
The need for an operator has become more "dynamic" of late since collision avoidance is becoming mandatory. This means that you should indeed contract that out. I just figured that the way to handle this was to provide a transceiver for commands in Part 5 spec trum (or another service) as well as one in Amateur spectrum.
We already have very much commercial work on the university satellites. Their research programs are intended to produce patents which they license or sell, etc. Using ham spectrum to develop patented technology that hams aren't allowed to use.
India has been sending up experimental satellites to test their GSLV. I suppose there are other similar LSPs that are willing to launch for free with a greater risk of things landing in the Pacific. As a regular on QO-100 I highly recommend it. First, it is always on. If you want to work Germany from here (India), this is open 24x7. I am building a small backpackable station now with a 2 feet wide dish (scrapped from a DTH receiver), a 10 GHz downconverter (3 dollars), and a NRF24L01 as a +20dBm CW transmitter (2 dollars). I use a small phone tripod to mount the dish. For demonstration purposes, it is a winner. There is no FM stomping, none of the wait and watch while the kids are getting impatient. Last convention we streamed our video live to hams in Europe, without touching the telecom infrastructure at all. If you have to sell something to the grant committees, it is this : Shouldn't the world have a telecom network that is non-profit, globally available to potentially every citizen of the world? Sure, it doesn't stream Youtube, but it is more than capable of getting messages in and out. With the QO-100 covering one part of the globe, a second satellite would complete the loop over the american continents. - f
On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 9:30 AM Joseph B. Fitzgerald < jfitzgerald@alum.wpi.edu> wrote:
Bruce,
We are substantially in agreement, especially your assertion that there will be a community to use digital geostationary amateur satellites. But probably not the emergency communication community. I simply lack the imagination to see how they improve on existing alternatives in that domain. The essence of my concern is that we need to look for funding using justifications other than emergency communication - we are more likely to get funding by claiming other benefits. Let's focus our efforts where it will most likely bear fruit. That being said, if someone can use emergency communication as a justification to get funding I would be glad to look silly!
-Joe KM1P
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On Mon, Aug 8, 2022 at 12:42 PM Clint Bradford via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
It’s not in the traditional “easy sat” category, since it will take about $1000 for a decent ground station. So I cannot anticipate it being “overloaded” by newbies.
The current ground station design shares as much as possible with digital satellite TV and can take advantage of all of the receive parts for that. The antenna is position-once. So, not necessarily so pricey.
There are a few advantages we don't have today. One is digital ID. You can use cryptographic techniques for that as long as you don't obscure the content of a communication, and be perfectly in compliance with FCC and ITU rules. So, no Guatemalan taxicabs intruding on a digital satellite. You can also manage bandwidth, and thus prevent any ID from grabbing more than one channel at a time, you can prioritize that classroom transmission and an emergency in progress over other traffic, etc.
I don't know if the photo will come over the list. But I always think of it when meeting opposition to future modes.
Thanks
Bruce [image: 9CS-qsl.jpg]
participants (25)
-
Arthur Feller -
Ashhar Farhan -
Bill Booth -
Bob Stricklin -
Brian Wilkins -
Bruce Perens -
Clint Bradford -
David G0MRF -
Doug Person -
George LaBelle -
Jean Marc Momple -
Jim White -
jim＠beeson.cc -
JoAnne Maenpaa -
John Magliacane -
Joseph B. Fitzgerald -
KC4QLP -
KC9SGV -
Matthias Bopp -
Richard AG5M -
Rob Carter -
Samudra Haque [TTLLC] -
Wendy and Terry Osborne -
Wes Baden -
Zach Metzinger