Thanks for the response Nico. Pete, WA6WOA, also recommend I take a look at the Horizons system as well. I gave it a quick once over, and actually logged into the telnet interface and played around a bit. It definitely looks like the type of thing I'm looking for. Next step for me is to learn the API and figure out how to integrate with my existing Python tools. Also, changing how I think about satellite orbits and tracking algorithms is also probably a requirement for me (I'm an EE type, not an AOE type, so probably time to learn a little more about how these tracking algorithms actually work).

Not being familiar with the system yet (or deep space tracking in general), my only concern at the moment is the frequency with which they update the system. TLEs get updated pretty regularly and need to be refreshed by the client software. My cursory examination of the HORIZONS system seems to indicate that they give ephemerides that cover much longer windows, possibly indicating that they don't update the data as frequently? Hopefully there is something about Deep Space tracking that is different, not requiring such frequent updates. I have a sense that I'm not thinking about 'scale' correctly yet. Like maybe these objects are so far out, that errors that might creep into the SGP4+TLE algorithms relatively quickly (requiring the weekly or bi-weekly updates) take a lot longer to creep up and matter with the deep space trajectories.

My concern here is primarily related to the Cube Quest Challenge stuff. I think this is being launched as part of the Orion mission to the Moon in the next couple years. Can we expect ephemeris data to be quickly added to the HORIZONS system soon after launch and after the TLI burn for the Orion mission? Maybe I'm just wrong about how frequently they update the info. Since this system is being run by JPL, I'm assuming (maybe hoping?) that the datasets on HORIZONS get updated every time they conduct ranging operations on active missions with the DSN (kind of like TLEs get updated every time NORAD does RADAR tracking for things closer in)? Hopefully, this will then include the Orion Mission relatively quickly so that the community can quickly pull the tracking data required to compute pointing angles for their ground stations to monitor the CQC bird.

Thanks for the pointers folks. In only a few emails, I've got some great stuff to look into, and a whole new area to look into and learn about! Fun stuff! Keep them coming!

Thanks,

Zach, KJ4QLP

Research Associate Ted & Karyn Hume Center for National Security & Technology Virginia Polytechnic Institute & State University Work Phone: 540-231-4174 Cell Phone: 540-808-6305

On 10/17/2016 5:08 PM, Nico Janssen wrote:

Zach,

Good questions. In the near future deep space tracking will become vital for radio amateurs. So we should prepare for that.

There are no simple solutions. But it may be helpful to start studying the JPL HORIZONS system: http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons

Tracking information on a number of deep space missions is provided by this system, e.g. Cassini, DSCOVR, Juno, LRO, MRO and the Voyagers.

73, Nico PA0DLO

On 17-10-16 17:35, Zach Leffke wrote:

...

Hello all,

This might be slightly off topic, but I'm betting someone on this 

list can point me in the right direction. I'm looking for ways to track spacecraft that are not in Earth Orbit (NEO?...did I just invent another acronym?...probably not.). I'm trying to figure out ways to track man made space vehicles sent to places like the Moon, Mars, the Lagrange Points, and beyond. As I understand it, TLEs + SGP4 are not the appropriate model for things not in the vicinity of Earth. I'm hoping to find a similar technique though for looking up current orbital parameters for the Non-Earth satellites (like pulling TLEs from celestrak) in some kind of database that contains current elements for the spacecraft (NASA servers somewhere?), and then compute pointing angles from a location on earth so I can figure when and where to point an antenna to receive signals from these spacecraft.

I believe this may be relevant to those on this list that might be interested in tracking the Cube Quest Challenge amateur radio cubesat that will be sent to the moon in the near future. After the trans-lunar injection burn, the cubesat will be ejected from the deployer. I'd like to be able to track this satellite as it travels to the moon, and potentially help receive data from the bird's 10 GHz Downlink. But.......where do I point my antenna and when?

For spacecraft that are already orbiting the Moon, OK, easy enough. Unless the antenna has a very narrow beamwidth, I can use any 'ole EME tracking package to point my antenna 'at the moon' and with the beamwidths I'm working with, the satellite is probably in the main beam. But what about the initial journey to the moon? Also, for the CQC, the cubesat will not immediately enter Lunar orbit (that is where the 'Challenge' part comes in). So simply pointing at the Moon may not work reliably.

To get a little more detail......but hopefully not too much......

I like using a python module called 'pyephem' for all (well...most) things related to antenna pointing. This handy module works well with TLE formats for Earth orbiters, contains a built in database for objects in the solar system, and a decent number of 'fixed' celestial objects like stars. It has the ability to import new objects in the 'Xephem' format, for things like comets and other bodies. If possible I'd like to use this feature to track other space probes like the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter, various Mars missions, Satellites at Lagrange Points (ACE/DISCOVR), etc. etc.

Does anyone on the list have experience with this type of thing that they might be willing to share? I believe folks from AMSAT-DL participated in the ISEE-3 reboot mission, so how did they know when and where to point the Bochum antenna for this? Again, I'm looking for a technique that hopefully involves downloading current 'orbital parameters' of some standard format type (Like TLEs from celestrak, but for non Earth Orbiters) and then importing those parameters into pyephem (by possibly converting whatever gets downloaded into the 'Xephem' format?) in order to integrate this kind of capability into my current, python-based, tracking software. Does anyone know of any publicly available databases that store current orbital or tracking data for non-earth orbiting spacecraft? Any tutorials out there about the algorithms used to compute deep space spacecraft position from the orbital elements and thus the pointing angles (Like SGP4 + coordinate system math, but for non-earth orbiters)? Any software libraries anyone is familiar with for this (I prefer python, but am open to other languages)?

Any and all advice, thoughts, info, papers, links, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,

Zach, KJ4QLP

I have wondered about Zach's question about tracking of bodies in other than simple Earth orbit, particularly in Trans-Lunar Trajectory or Lunar Orbit (as in the Cube Quest Challenge). I would be particularly interested in a solution that could run on a PC without concurrent internet connectivity. Are there any programs like that out there?

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 8:45 AM, Nico Janssen [email protected] wrote:

Zach,

Don't worry too much about frequent updates of ephemerides. Deep space spacecraft don't experience as many perturbations as satellites in low Earth orbit, like (variable) atmospheric drag.

If you really want to dive into serious orbit modeling and tracking, also for deep space, you should have a look at the General Mission Analysis Tool (GMAT): http://gmatcentral.org/display/GW/GMAT+Wiki+Home http://gmatcentral.org/pages/viewrecentblogposts.action?key=GW http://gmat.sourceforge.net/docs/

73, Nico PA0DLO

On 18-10-16 00:24, Zach Leffke wrote:

...

Thanks for the response Nico. Pete, WA6WOA, also recommend I take a look at the Horizons system as well. I gave it a quick once over, and actually logged into the telnet interface and played around a bit. It definitely looks like the type of thing I'm looking for. Next step for me is to learn the API and figure out how to integrate with my existing Python tools. Also, changing how I think about satellite orbits and tracking algorithms is also probably a requirement for me (I'm an EE type, not an AOE type, so probably time to learn a little more about how these tracking algorithms actually work).

Not being familiar with the system yet (or deep space tracking in general), my only concern at the moment is the frequency with which they update the system. TLEs get updated pretty regularly and need to be refreshed by the client software. My cursory examination of the HORIZONS system seems to indicate that they give ephemerides that cover much longer windows, possibly indicating that they don't update the data as frequently? Hopefully there is something about Deep Space tracking that is different, not requiring such frequent updates. I have a sense that I'm not thinking about 'scale' correctly yet. Like maybe these objects are so far out, that errors that might creep into the SGP4+TLE algorithms relatively quickly (requiring the weekly or bi-weekly updates) take a lot longer to creep up and matter with the deep space trajectories.

My concern here is primarily related to the Cube Quest Challenge stuff. I think this is being launched as part of the Orion mission to the Moon in the next couple years. Can we expect ephemeris data to be quickly added to the HORIZONS system soon after launch and after the TLI burn for the Orion mission? Maybe I'm just wrong about how frequently they update the info. Since this system is being run by JPL, I'm assuming (maybe hoping?) that the datasets on HORIZONS get updated every time they conduct ranging operations on active missions with the DSN (kind of like TLEs get updated every time NORAD does RADAR tracking for things closer in)? Hopefully, this will then include the Orion Mission relatively quickly so that the community can quickly pull the tracking data required to compute pointing angles for their ground stations to monitor the CQC bird.

Thanks for the pointers folks. In only a few emails, I've got some great stuff to look into, and a whole new area to look into and learn about! Fun stuff! Keep them coming!

Thanks,

Zach, KJ4QLP

Research Associate Ted & Karyn Hume Center for National Security & Technology Virginia Polytechnic Institute & State University Work Phone: 540-231-4174 Cell Phone: 540-808-6305

---

Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

Hi Zach,

Part of the CQC mission is that each team needs to be able to do orbital determination. Part of the communications package for the Heimdallr satellite that AMSAT is participating in will be a method to determine satellite range and range-rate. We will have accurate information from the launch provider concerning where the satellite is and it's trajectory at the moment of separation. From that point on we need to "dead reckon" the position based on distance and speed measurements form the ranging measurements. Hams will be an important part of this process since the more measurements we can get from places as far apart as possible will increase the accuracy of the measurement. These measurements will allow us to place the satellite in a position in a known reference frame. If we place the earth in the same reference plane we can determine the azimuth and elevation from a point on the earth. We should be able to predict where the satellite should be at all times based on the range and range-rate measurements. I am not an expert on the subject, but this is what I was able to get from listening to the experts. :)

Howie AB2S

________________________________ From: AMSAT-BB [email protected] on behalf of Zach Leffke [email protected] Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 6:24 PM To: Nico Janssen; [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Tracking Non Earth Orbit Spacecraft......how?

Thanks for the response Nico. Pete, WA6WOA, also recommend I take a look at the Horizons system as well. I gave it a quick once over, and actually logged into the telnet interface and played around a bit. It definitely looks like the type of thing I'm looking for. Next step for me is to learn the API and figure out how to integrate with my existing Python tools. Also, changing how I think about satellite orbits and tracking algorithms is also probably a requirement for me (I'm an EE type, not an AOE type, so probably time to learn a little more about how these tracking algorithms actually work).

Not being familiar with the system yet (or deep space tracking in general), my only concern at the moment is the frequency with which they update the system. TLEs get updated pretty regularly and need to be refreshed by the client software. My cursory examination of the HORIZONS system seems to indicate that they give ephemerides that cover much longer windows, possibly indicating that they don't update the data as frequently? Hopefully there is something about Deep Space tracking that is different, not requiring such frequent updates. I have a sense that I'm not thinking about 'scale' correctly yet. Like maybe these objects are so far out, that errors that might creep into the SGP4+TLE algorithms relatively quickly (requiring the weekly or bi-weekly updates) take a lot longer to creep up and matter with the deep space trajectories.

My concern here is primarily related to the Cube Quest Challenge stuff. I think this is being launched as part of the Orion mission to the Moon in the next couple years. Can we expect ephemeris data to be quickly added to the HORIZONS system soon after launch and after the TLI burn for the Orion mission? Maybe I'm just wrong about how frequently they update the info. Since this system is being run by JPL, I'm assuming (maybe hoping?) that the datasets on HORIZONS get updated every time they conduct ranging operations on active missions with the DSN (kind of like TLEs get updated every time NORAD does RADAR tracking for things closer in)? Hopefully, this will then include the Orion Mission relatively quickly so that the community can quickly pull the tracking data required to compute pointing angles for their ground stations to monitor the CQC bird.

Thanks for the pointers folks. In only a few emails, I've got some great stuff to look into, and a whole new area to look into and learn about! Fun stuff! Keep them coming!

Thanks,

Zach, KJ4QLP

Research Associate Ted & Karyn Hume Center for National Security & Technology Virginia Polytechnic Institute & State University Work Phone: 540-231-4174 Cell Phone: 540-808-6305

On 10/17/2016 5:08 PM, Nico Janssen wrote:

Zach,

Good questions. In the near future deep space tracking will become vital for radio amateurs. So we should prepare for that.

There are no simple solutions. But it may be helpful to start studying the JPL HORIZONS system: http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons

HORIZONS Systemhttp://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons ssd.jpl.nasa.gov JPL's Horizons system description and related links.

Tracking information on a number of deep space missions is provided by this system, e.g. Cassini, DSCOVR, Juno, LRO, MRO and the Voyagers.

73, Nico PA0DLO

On 17-10-16 17:35, Zach Leffke wrote:

...

Hello all,

This might be slightly off topic, but I'm betting someone on this

list can point me in the right direction. I'm looking for ways to track spacecraft that are not in Earth Orbit (NEO?...did I just invent another acronym?...probably not.). I'm trying to figure out ways to track man made space vehicles sent to places like the Moon, Mars, the Lagrange Points, and beyond. As I understand it, TLEs + SGP4 are not the appropriate model for things not in the vicinity of Earth. I'm hoping to find a similar technique though for looking up current orbital parameters for the Non-Earth satellites (like pulling TLEs from celestrak) in some kind of database that contains current elements for the spacecraft (NASA servers somewhere?), and then compute pointing angles from a location on earth so I can figure when and where to point an antenna to receive signals from these spacecraft.

I believe this may be relevant to those on this list that might be interested in tracking the Cube Quest Challenge amateur radio cubesat that will be sent to the moon in the near future. After the trans-lunar injection burn, the cubesat will be ejected from the deployer. I'd like to be able to track this satellite as it travels to the moon, and potentially help receive data from the bird's 10 GHz Downlink. But.......where do I point my antenna and when?

For spacecraft that are already orbiting the Moon, OK, easy enough. Unless the antenna has a very narrow beamwidth, I can use any 'ole EME tracking package to point my antenna 'at the moon' and with the beamwidths I'm working with, the satellite is probably in the main beam. But what about the initial journey to the moon? Also, for the CQC, the cubesat will not immediately enter Lunar orbit (that is where the 'Challenge' part comes in). So simply pointing at the Moon may not work reliably.

To get a little more detail......but hopefully not too much......

I like using a python module called 'pyephem' for all (well...most) things related to antenna pointing. This handy module works well with TLE formats for Earth orbiters, contains a built in database for objects in the solar system, and a decent number of 'fixed' celestial objects like stars. It has the ability to import new objects in the 'Xephem' format, for things like comets and other bodies. If possible I'd like to use this feature to track other space probes like the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter, various Mars missions, Satellites at Lagrange Points (ACE/DISCOVR), etc. etc.

Does anyone on the list have experience with this type of thing that they might be willing to share? I believe folks from AMSAT-DL participated in the ISEE-3 reboot mission, so how did they know when and where to point the Bochum antenna for this? Again, I'm looking for a technique that hopefully involves downloading current 'orbital parameters' of some standard format type (Like TLEs from celestrak, but for non Earth Orbiters) and then importing those parameters into pyephem (by possibly converting whatever gets downloaded into the 'Xephem' format?) in order to integrate this kind of capability into my current, python-based, tracking software. Does anyone know of any publicly available databases that store current orbital or tracking data for non-earth orbiting spacecraft? Any tutorials out there about the algorithms used to compute deep space spacecraft position from the orbital elements and thus the pointing angles (Like SGP4 + coordinate system math, but for non-earth orbiters)? Any software libraries anyone is familiar with for this (I prefer python, but am open to other languages)?

Any and all advice, thoughts, info, papers, links, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,

Zach, KJ4QLP

_______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb AMSAT-BB Info Pagehttp://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb www.amsat.org To see the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the AMSAT-BB Archives. Using AMSAT-BB: To post a message to all the list members, send ...