Re: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna (correction)
Although my comments are true, I had not looked at the "updated" web page: http://wb5rmg.somenet.net/k5oe/Eggbeater_2.html
It appears he addressed all those issues and has an eggbeater design that does address those same issues. If that works, then that is the same thing I was talking about and seems to be a good approach. I'd love to see a cookoff between the two antennas. Bob...
-----Original Message----- From: Robert Bruninga [mailto:bruninga@usna.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 1:32 PM Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna
My 2 cents:
The problem with Eggbeaters is that their design goal (omni coverage) sounds good but also means, by definition, equally poor in all directions. There is no such thing as "gain" for an omni. The closer its gain approaches 3D omni, in all directions, then the closer its gain approaches 0 dBi. Of course, placed over a ground plane, then they can achieve 3 dBi...
Now, on the other hand, satellites are nowhere near omni located. They are 10dB or more farther away on the horizon than when they are overhead. So you don't need as much gain at all overhead as you need on the horizon.
Further, satellites spend more than 70% of all pass times below 22 degrees! (where they are weak) and only 5% of their time above 45 degrees where they are 10 dB stronger.
The last thing then that you need for "omni" coverage for a non-pointing antenna, then, is gain that is UP (where the satellite is 10 times stronger).
See the scale drawings of a LEO pass: http://aprs.org/LEO-tracking.html
BUT on the other hand, most cubesats simply do not have the power to close the link to an OMNI antenna when it is on the horizon. It just cannot happen due to the distance and the omni only being at best 3 dB gain.
So the BEST "omni" in my opinion is a 19" whip over a large metal ground plane. Not only does it provide 5 dBi gain above 15 degrees or so on VHF, it also provides almost 7 dBi gain on UHF above about 30 degrees where it acts as a 3/4 wave vertical..
Yes, it has a null overhead, but the satellite is 10 times stronger then. And the satleilte is only in that null less than 2% of all pass times.
So the 19" vertical gives good gain from above the horizon in all directions and sacrificaes some gain overhead wehre it is not needed. And no omni antenna is going to hear these weak satellites all the way down on the horizon where they are 10 times weaker.
And a 19.25" vertical piece of wire over some chicken wire is pretty easy to construct, AND it does not need to be on the top of a tower, since it cannot hear to the horizon anyway. So jjust put it where it can see most of the sky above abouit 15 degrees and you will hear about all you can on an Omni. And it is not bad...
The value of a true circular hemispherical antenna is only when the satelile is strong (ISS) and it can be heard even on the horizon. Then the circula hemispherical antenna has the advantage of fewer nulls in its pattern. But you give up gain where it is most needed to get that.
And a low noise preamp is essential...
Just my 2 cents... Bob, WB4APR
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Paul Stoetzer Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 1:12 PM To: jim@k6ccc.org Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna
Jim,
The key words here are "noise floor." Omnidirectional antennas can work for satellites when you have a low noise floor and short runs of very good coax (and/or a preamp).
As an example, I've listened for SO-50 a couple of times from here in Washington, DC with my Baofeng UV-3R+ and Nagoya NA-774 telescopic whip. I can hear the satellite a bit, but still quite nosily, above 45 degrees. Back in August, I was in a field in the middle of nowhere and heard it very well from 5-7 degrees above the horizon.
Another example is that some people report decent telemetry success from AO-73 (when in high power mode) using nothing more than 1/4 wave whip. I've never been able to decode a single packet with that type of setup here in the city.
Most people live somewhere between the two extremes I've presented here of "field in the middle of nowhere" and "apartment building in a major urban center" so your mileage may vary. Just keep in mind that in any receiving system, you are looking for an optimal signal to noise ratio. If you have no noise, you don't need much signal and omnidirectional antennas might work fine. If you have a ton of noise, you are going to need a lot of signal from the satellite, which means a beam with decent gain.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:46 PM, Jim Walls jim@k6ccc.org wrote:
I built one about a decade or so ago and was grossly underwhelmed with
it.
I built it to use for a sat igate. I was able to decode maybe one or two packets per day. Everything else was lost in the noise floor.. Only had about 20 feet of RG-214 cable to the receiver.
Jim - K6CCC
From: "Joe" nss@mwt.net Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:37 AM To: "amsat-bb@amsat org" amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna Has anyone built this antenna, and what are your opinions? Meet all the claims being made?
http://wb5rmg.somenet.net/k5oe/Eggbeater_2.html
Joe WB9SBD
Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect
the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Bob, I understand you feel strongly (for good reason) about using a vertical for satellite purposes. However, do some of these other antenna designs do a better job of dealing with polarity mismatch than a vertical would? I ask because I simply don't know.
Thanks, Bill VE6WK
On 2016-03-15 2:11 PM, Robert Bruninga wrote:
Although my comments are true, I had not looked at the "updated" web page: http://wb5rmg.somenet.net/k5oe/Eggbeater_2.html
It appears he addressed all those issues and has an eggbeater design that does address those same issues. If that works, then that is the same thing I was talking about and seems to be a good approach. I'd love to see a cookoff between the two antennas. Bob...
-----Original Message----- From: Robert Bruninga [mailto:bruninga@usna.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 1:32 PM Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna
My 2 cents:
The problem with Eggbeaters is that their design goal (omni coverage) sounds good but also means, by definition, equally poor in all directions. There is no such thing as "gain" for an omni. The closer its gain approaches 3D omni, in all directions, then the closer its gain approaches 0 dBi. Of course, placed over a ground plane, then they can achieve 3 dBi...
Now, on the other hand, satellites are nowhere near omni located. They are 10dB or more farther away on the horizon than when they are overhead. So you don't need as much gain at all overhead as you need on the horizon.
Further, satellites spend more than 70% of all pass times below 22 degrees! (where they are weak) and only 5% of their time above 45 degrees where they are 10 dB stronger.
The last thing then that you need for "omni" coverage for a non-pointing antenna, then, is gain that is UP (where the satellite is 10 times stronger).
See the scale drawings of a LEO pass: http://aprs.org/LEO-tracking.html
BUT on the other hand, most cubesats simply do not have the power to close the link to an OMNI antenna when it is on the horizon. It just cannot happen due to the distance and the omni only being at best 3 dB gain.
So the BEST "omni" in my opinion is a 19" whip over a large metal ground plane. Not only does it provide 5 dBi gain above 15 degrees or so on VHF, it also provides almost 7 dBi gain on UHF above about 30 degrees where it acts as a 3/4 wave vertical..
Yes, it has a null overhead, but the satellite is 10 times stronger then. And the satleilte is only in that null less than 2% of all pass times.
So the 19" vertical gives good gain from above the horizon in all directions and sacrificaes some gain overhead wehre it is not needed. And no omni antenna is going to hear these weak satellites all the way down on the horizon where they are 10 times weaker.
And a 19.25" vertical piece of wire over some chicken wire is pretty easy to construct, AND it does not need to be on the top of a tower, since it cannot hear to the horizon anyway. So jjust put it where it can see most of the sky above abouit 15 degrees and you will hear about all you can on an Omni. And it is not bad...
The value of a true circular hemispherical antenna is only when the satelile is strong (ISS) and it can be heard even on the horizon. Then the circula hemispherical antenna has the advantage of fewer nulls in its pattern. But you give up gain where it is most needed to get that.
And a low noise preamp is essential...
Just my 2 cents... Bob, WB4APR
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Paul Stoetzer Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 1:12 PM To: jim@k6ccc.org Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna
Jim,
The key words here are "noise floor." Omnidirectional antennas can work for satellites when you have a low noise floor and short runs of very good coax (and/or a preamp).
As an example, I've listened for SO-50 a couple of times from here in Washington, DC with my Baofeng UV-3R+ and Nagoya NA-774 telescopic whip. I can hear the satellite a bit, but still quite nosily, above 45 degrees. Back in August, I was in a field in the middle of nowhere and heard it very well from 5-7 degrees above the horizon.
Another example is that some people report decent telemetry success from AO-73 (when in high power mode) using nothing more than 1/4 wave whip. I've never been able to decode a single packet with that type of setup here in the city.
Most people live somewhere between the two extremes I've presented here of "field in the middle of nowhere" and "apartment building in a major urban center" so your mileage may vary. Just keep in mind that in any receiving system, you are looking for an optimal signal to noise ratio. If you have no noise, you don't need much signal and omnidirectional antennas might work fine. If you have a ton of noise, you are going to need a lot of signal from the satellite, which means a beam with decent gain.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:46 PM, Jim Walls jim@k6ccc.org wrote:
I built one about a decade or so ago and was grossly underwhelmed with
it.
I built it to use for a sat igate. I was able to decode maybe one or two packets per day. Everything else was lost in the noise floor.. Only had about 20 feet of RG-214 cable to the receiver.
Jim - K6CCC
From: "Joe" nss@mwt.net Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:37 AM To: "amsat-bb@amsat org" amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna Has anyone built this antenna, and what are your opinions? Meet all the claims being made?
http://wb5rmg.somenet.net/k5oe/Eggbeater_2.html
Joe WB9SBD
Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect
the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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Good question. I guess I am glossing over some things... With APRS SatGates polarization mismatch does not really matter that much since we have lots of satgates listening. With them, we want a strong packet when we hear them to decode, but if the polarity mismatches, then another satgage somewhere else has a good chance of hearing it. So we are not trying to get all packets, but the ones we do get at each individual station, the stronger the better.
Hence we focus on gain above the horizon and using the simplest fixed antenna so more people will do it.
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Bill Attwood Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna (correction)
Bob, I understand you feel strongly (for good reason) about using a vertical for satellite purposes. However, do some of these other antenna designs do a better job of dealing with polarity mismatch than a vertical would? I ask because I simply don't know.
Thanks, Bill VE6WK
On 2016-03-15 2:11 PM, Robert Bruninga wrote:
Although my comments are true, I had not looked at the "updated" web
page:
http://wb5rmg.somenet.net/k5oe/Eggbeater_2.html
It appears he addressed all those issues and has an eggbeater design that does address those same issues. If that works, then that is the same thing I was talking about and seems to be a good approach. I'd love to see a cookoff between the two antennas. Bob...
-----Original Message----- From: Robert Bruninga [mailto:bruninga@usna.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 1:32 PM Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna
My 2 cents:
The problem with Eggbeaters is that their design goal (omni coverage) sounds good but also means, by definition, equally poor in all
directions.
There is no such thing as "gain" for an omni. The closer its gain approaches 3D omni, in all directions, then the closer its gain approaches 0 dBi. Of course, placed over a ground plane, then they can achieve 3 dBi...
Now, on the other hand, satellites are nowhere near omni located. They are 10dB or more farther away on the horizon than when they are
overhead.
So you don't need as much gain at all overhead as you need on the
horizon.
Further, satellites spend more than 70% of all pass times below 22
degrees!
(where they are weak) and only 5% of their time above 45 degrees where they are 10 dB stronger.
The last thing then that you need for "omni" coverage for a non-pointing antenna, then, is gain that is UP (where the satellite is 10 times stronger).
See the scale drawings of a LEO pass: http://aprs.org/LEO-tracking.html
BUT on the other hand, most cubesats simply do not have the power to close the link to an OMNI antenna when it is on the horizon. It just cannot happen due to the distance and the omni only being at best 3 dB
gain.
So the BEST "omni" in my opinion is a 19" whip over a large metal ground plane. Not only does it provide 5 dBi gain above 15 degrees or so on VHF, it also provides almost 7 dBi gain on UHF above about 30 degrees where it acts as a 3/4 wave vertical..
Yes, it has a null overhead, but the satellite is 10 times stronger
then.
And the satleilte is only in that null less than 2% of all pass times.
So the 19" vertical gives good gain from above the horizon in all directions and sacrificaes some gain overhead wehre it is not needed. And no omni antenna is going to hear these weak satellites all the way down on the horizon where they are 10 times weaker.
And a 19.25" vertical piece of wire over some chicken wire is pretty easy to construct, AND it does not need to be on the top of a tower, since it cannot hear to the horizon anyway. So jjust put it where it can see most of the sky above abouit 15 degrees and you will hear about
all you can on an Omni.
And it is not bad...
The value of a true circular hemispherical antenna is only when the satelile is strong (ISS) and it can be heard even on the horizon. Then the circula hemispherical antenna has the advantage of fewer nulls in its pattern. But you give up gain where it is most needed to
get that.
And a low noise preamp is essential...
Just my 2 cents... Bob, WB4APR
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Paul Stoetzer Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 1:12 PM To: jim@k6ccc.org Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna
Jim,
The key words here are "noise floor." Omnidirectional antennas can work for satellites when you have a low noise floor and short runs of very good coax (and/or a preamp).
As an example, I've listened for SO-50 a couple of times from here in Washington, DC with my Baofeng UV-3R+ and Nagoya NA-774 telescopic whip. I can hear the satellite a bit, but still quite nosily, above 45
degrees.
Back in August, I was in a field in the middle of nowhere and heard it very well from 5-7 degrees above the horizon.
Another example is that some people report decent telemetry success from AO-73 (when in high power mode) using nothing more than 1/4 wave whip. I've never been able to decode a single packet with that type of setup here in the city.
Most people live somewhere between the two extremes I've presented here of "field in the middle of nowhere" and "apartment building in a major urban center" so your mileage may vary. Just keep in mind that in any receiving system, you are looking for an optimal signal to noise ratio. If you have no noise, you don't need much signal and omnidirectional antennas might work fine. If you have a ton of noise, you are going to need a lot of signal from the satellite, which means a
beam with decent gain.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:46 PM, Jim Walls jim@k6ccc.org wrote:
I built one about a decade or so ago and was grossly underwhelmed with
it.
I built it to use for a sat igate. I was able to decode maybe one or two packets per day. Everything else was lost in the noise floor.. Only had about 20 feet of RG-214 cable to the receiver.
Jim - K6CCC
From: "Joe" nss@mwt.net Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:37 AM To: "amsat-bb@amsat org" amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna Has anyone built this antenna, and what are your opinions? Meet all the claims being made?
http://wb5rmg.somenet.net/k5oe/Eggbeater_2.html
Joe WB9SBD
Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect
the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect
the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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Main problem seems to be the 93 ohm coax,,,
anyone got a short piece?
Joe WB9SBD Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com On 3/15/2016 3:11 PM, Robert Bruninga wrote:
Although my comments are true, I had not looked at the "updated" web page: http://wb5rmg.somenet.net/k5oe/Eggbeater_2.html
It appears he addressed all those issues and has an eggbeater design that does address those same issues. If that works, then that is the same thing I was talking about and seems to be a good approach. I'd love to see a cookoff between the two antennas. Bob...
-----Original Message----- From: Robert Bruninga [mailto:bruninga@usna.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 1:32 PM Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna
My 2 cents:
The problem with Eggbeaters is that their design goal (omni coverage) sounds good but also means, by definition, equally poor in all directions. There is no such thing as "gain" for an omni. The closer its gain approaches 3D omni, in all directions, then the closer its gain approaches 0 dBi. Of course, placed over a ground plane, then they can achieve 3 dBi...
Now, on the other hand, satellites are nowhere near omni located. They are 10dB or more farther away on the horizon than when they are overhead. So you don't need as much gain at all overhead as you need on the horizon.
Further, satellites spend more than 70% of all pass times below 22 degrees! (where they are weak) and only 5% of their time above 45 degrees where they are 10 dB stronger.
The last thing then that you need for "omni" coverage for a non-pointing antenna, then, is gain that is UP (where the satellite is 10 times stronger).
See the scale drawings of a LEO pass: http://aprs.org/LEO-tracking.html
BUT on the other hand, most cubesats simply do not have the power to close the link to an OMNI antenna when it is on the horizon. It just cannot happen due to the distance and the omni only being at best 3 dB gain.
So the BEST "omni" in my opinion is a 19" whip over a large metal ground plane. Not only does it provide 5 dBi gain above 15 degrees or so on VHF, it also provides almost 7 dBi gain on UHF above about 30 degrees where it acts as a 3/4 wave vertical..
Yes, it has a null overhead, but the satellite is 10 times stronger then. And the satleilte is only in that null less than 2% of all pass times.
So the 19" vertical gives good gain from above the horizon in all directions and sacrificaes some gain overhead wehre it is not needed. And no omni antenna is going to hear these weak satellites all the way down on the horizon where they are 10 times weaker.
And a 19.25" vertical piece of wire over some chicken wire is pretty easy to construct, AND it does not need to be on the top of a tower, since it cannot hear to the horizon anyway. So jjust put it where it can see most of the sky above abouit 15 degrees and you will hear about all you can on an Omni. And it is not bad...
The value of a true circular hemispherical antenna is only when the satelile is strong (ISS) and it can be heard even on the horizon. Then the circula hemispherical antenna has the advantage of fewer nulls in its pattern. But you give up gain where it is most needed to get that.
And a low noise preamp is essential...
Just my 2 cents... Bob, WB4APR
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Paul Stoetzer Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 1:12 PM To: jim@k6ccc.org Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna
Jim,
The key words here are "noise floor." Omnidirectional antennas can work for satellites when you have a low noise floor and short runs of very good coax (and/or a preamp).
As an example, I've listened for SO-50 a couple of times from here in Washington, DC with my Baofeng UV-3R+ and Nagoya NA-774 telescopic whip. I can hear the satellite a bit, but still quite nosily, above 45 degrees. Back in August, I was in a field in the middle of nowhere and heard it very well from 5-7 degrees above the horizon.
Another example is that some people report decent telemetry success from AO-73 (when in high power mode) using nothing more than 1/4 wave whip. I've never been able to decode a single packet with that type of setup here in the city.
Most people live somewhere between the two extremes I've presented here of "field in the middle of nowhere" and "apartment building in a major urban center" so your mileage may vary. Just keep in mind that in any receiving system, you are looking for an optimal signal to noise ratio. If you have no noise, you don't need much signal and omnidirectional antennas might work fine. If you have a ton of noise, you are going to need a lot of signal from the satellite, which means a beam with decent gain.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:46 PM, Jim Walls jim@k6ccc.org wrote:
I built one about a decade or so ago and was grossly underwhelmed with
it.
I built it to use for a sat igate. I was able to decode maybe one or two packets per day. Everything else was lost in the noise floor.. Only had about 20 feet of RG-214 cable to the receiver.
Jim - K6CCC
From: "Joe" nss@mwt.net Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:37 AM To: "amsat-bb@amsat org" amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna Has anyone built this antenna, and what are your opinions? Meet all the claims being made?
http://wb5rmg.somenet.net/k5oe/Eggbeater_2.html
Joe WB9SBD
Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect
the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I have a 500' roll. Send me a stamped padded envelope or label for a usps flat rate box and how many feet you'd like.
In about 10 years of offering I've never had a taker though.
73, Drew KO4MA
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 15, 2016, at 4:45 PM, Joe nss@mwt.net wrote:
Main problem seems to be the 93 ohm coax,,,
anyone got a short piece?
Joe WB9SBD Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com
On 3/15/2016 3:11 PM, Robert Bruninga wrote: Although my comments are true, I had not looked at the "updated" web page: http://wb5rmg.somenet.net/k5oe/Eggbeater_2.html
It appears he addressed all those issues and has an eggbeater design that does address those same issues. If that works, then that is the same thing I was talking about and seems to be a good approach. I'd love to see a cookoff between the two antennas. Bob...
-----Original Message----- From: Robert Bruninga [mailto:bruninga@usna.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 1:32 PM Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna
My 2 cents:
The problem with Eggbeaters is that their design goal (omni coverage) sounds good but also means, by definition, equally poor in all directions. There is no such thing as "gain" for an omni. The closer its gain approaches 3D omni, in all directions, then the closer its gain approaches 0 dBi. Of course, placed over a ground plane, then they can achieve 3 dBi...
Now, on the other hand, satellites are nowhere near omni located. They are 10dB or more farther away on the horizon than when they are overhead. So you don't need as much gain at all overhead as you need on the horizon.
Further, satellites spend more than 70% of all pass times below 22 degrees! (where they are weak) and only 5% of their time above 45 degrees where they are 10 dB stronger.
This may not be a lot of help but you want RG-62. You can buy it by the foot but I do not have any, I used mine up working on the WRAPS rotor. RG-62 uses an RG-59 connector. DougK9DLP
From: Joe nss@mwt.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna (correction)
Main problem seems to be the 93 ohm coax,,,
anyone got a short piece?
Joe WB9SBD Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com On 3/15/2016 3:11 PM, Robert Bruninga wrote:
Although my comments are true, I had not looked at the "updated" web page: http://wb5rmg.somenet.net/k5oe/Eggbeater_2.html
It appears he addressed all those issues and has an eggbeater design that does address those same issues. If that works, then that is the same thing I was talking about and seems to be a good approach. I'd love to see a cookoff between the two antennas. Bob...
-----Original Message----- From: Robert Bruninga [mailto:bruninga@usna.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 1:32 PM Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna
My 2 cents:
The problem with Eggbeaters is that their design goal (omni coverage) sounds good but also means, by definition, equally poor in all directions. There is no such thing as "gain" for an omni. The closer its gain approaches 3D omni, in all directions, then the closer its gain approaches 0 dBi. Of course, placed over a ground plane, then they can achieve 3 dBi...
Now, on the other hand, satellites are nowhere near omni located. They are 10dB or more farther away on the horizon than when they are overhead. So you don't need as much gain at all overhead as you need on the horizon.
Further, satellites spend more than 70% of all pass times below 22 degrees! (where they are weak) and only 5% of their time above 45 degrees where they are 10 dB stronger.
The last thing then that you need for "omni" coverage for a non-pointing antenna, then, is gain that is UP (where the satellite is 10 times stronger).
See the scale drawings of a LEO pass: http://aprs.org/LEO-tracking.html
BUT on the other hand, most cubesats simply do not have the power to close the link to an OMNI antenna when it is on the horizon. It just cannot happen due to the distance and the omni only being at best 3 dB gain.
So the BEST "omni" in my opinion is a 19" whip over a large metal ground plane. Not only does it provide 5 dBi gain above 15 degrees or so on VHF, it also provides almost 7 dBi gain on UHF above about 30 degrees where it acts as a 3/4 wave vertical..
Yes, it has a null overhead, but the satellite is 10 times stronger then. And the satleilte is only in that null less than 2% of all pass times.
So the 19" vertical gives good gain from above the horizon in all directions and sacrificaes some gain overhead wehre it is not needed. And no omni antenna is going to hear these weak satellites all the way down on the horizon where they are 10 times weaker.
And a 19.25" vertical piece of wire over some chicken wire is pretty easy to construct, AND it does not need to be on the top of a tower, since it cannot hear to the horizon anyway. So jjust put it where it can see most of the sky above abouit 15 degrees and you will hear about all you can on an Omni. And it is not bad...
The value of a true circular hemispherical antenna is only when the satelile is strong (ISS) and it can be heard even on the horizon. Then the circula hemispherical antenna has the advantage of fewer nulls in its pattern. But you give up gain where it is most needed to get that.
And a low noise preamp is essential...
Just my 2 cents... Bob, WB4APR
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Paul Stoetzer Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 1:12 PM To: jim@k6ccc.org Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna
Jim,
The key words here are "noise floor." Omnidirectional antennas can work for satellites when you have a low noise floor and short runs of very good coax (and/or a preamp).
As an example, I've listened for SO-50 a couple of times from here in Washington, DC with my Baofeng UV-3R+ and Nagoya NA-774 telescopic whip. I can hear the satellite a bit, but still quite nosily, above 45 degrees. Back in August, I was in a field in the middle of nowhere and heard it very well from 5-7 degrees above the horizon.
Another example is that some people report decent telemetry success from AO-73 (when in high power mode) using nothing more than 1/4 wave whip. I've never been able to decode a single packet with that type of setup here in the city.
Most people live somewhere between the two extremes I've presented here of "field in the middle of nowhere" and "apartment building in a major urban center" so your mileage may vary. Just keep in mind that in any receiving system, you are looking for an optimal signal to noise ratio. If you have no noise, you don't need much signal and omnidirectional antennas might work fine. If you have a ton of noise, you are going to need a lot of signal from the satellite, which means a beam with decent gain.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:46 PM, Jim Walls jim@k6ccc.org wrote:
I built one about a decade or so ago and was grossly underwhelmed with
it.
I built it to use for a sat igate. I was able to decode maybe one or two packets per day. Everything else was lost in the noise floor.. Only had about 20 feet of RG-214 cable to the receiver.
Jim - K6CCC
From: "Joe" nss@mwt.net Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:37 AM To: "amsat-bb@amsat org" amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna Has anyone built this antenna, and what are your opinions? Meet all the claims being made?
http://wb5rmg.somenet.net/k5oe/Eggbeater_2.html
Joe WB9SBD
Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect
the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
There are several listings on ebay.... RG-62 Belden 9269
73 Matt W5LL
On 3/15/2016 3:45 PM, Joe wrote:
Main problem seems to be the 93 ohm coax,,,
anyone got a short piece?
Joe WB9SBD Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com On 3/15/2016 3:11 PM, Robert Bruninga wrote:
Although my comments are true, I had not looked at the "updated" web page: http://wb5rmg.somenet.net/k5oe/Eggbeater_2.html
It appears he addressed all those issues and has an eggbeater design that does address those same issues. If that works, then that is the same thing I was talking about and seems to be a good approach. I'd love to see a cookoff between the two antennas. Bob...
-----Original Message----- From: Robert Bruninga [mailto:bruninga@usna.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 1:32 PM Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna
My 2 cents:
The problem with Eggbeaters is that their design goal (omni coverage) sounds good but also means, by definition, equally poor in all directions. There is no such thing as "gain" for an omni. The closer its gain approaches 3D omni, in all directions, then the closer its gain approaches 0 dBi. Of course, placed over a ground plane, then they can achieve 3 dBi...
Now, on the other hand, satellites are nowhere near omni located. They are 10dB or more farther away on the horizon than when they are overhead. So you don't need as much gain at all overhead as you need on the horizon.
Further, satellites spend more than 70% of all pass times below 22 degrees! (where they are weak) and only 5% of their time above 45 degrees where they are 10 dB stronger.
The last thing then that you need for "omni" coverage for a non-pointing antenna, then, is gain that is UP (where the satellite is 10 times stronger).
See the scale drawings of a LEO pass: http://aprs.org/LEO-tracking.html
BUT on the other hand, most cubesats simply do not have the power to close the link to an OMNI antenna when it is on the horizon. It just cannot happen due to the distance and the omni only being at best 3 dB gain.
So the BEST "omni" in my opinion is a 19" whip over a large metal ground plane. Not only does it provide 5 dBi gain above 15 degrees or so on VHF, it also provides almost 7 dBi gain on UHF above about 30 degrees where it acts as a 3/4 wave vertical..
Yes, it has a null overhead, but the satellite is 10 times stronger then. And the satleilte is only in that null less than 2% of all pass times.
So the 19" vertical gives good gain from above the horizon in all directions and sacrificaes some gain overhead wehre it is not needed. And no omni antenna is going to hear these weak satellites all the way down on the horizon where they are 10 times weaker.
And a 19.25" vertical piece of wire over some chicken wire is pretty easy to construct, AND it does not need to be on the top of a tower, since it cannot hear to the horizon anyway. So jjust put it where it can see most of the sky above abouit 15 degrees and you will hear about all you can on an Omni. And it is not bad...
The value of a true circular hemispherical antenna is only when the satelile is strong (ISS) and it can be heard even on the horizon. Then the circula hemispherical antenna has the advantage of fewer nulls in its pattern. But you give up gain where it is most needed to get that.
And a low noise preamp is essential...
Just my 2 cents... Bob, WB4APR
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Paul Stoetzer Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 1:12 PM To: jim@k6ccc.org Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna
Jim,
The key words here are "noise floor." Omnidirectional antennas can work for satellites when you have a low noise floor and short runs of very good coax (and/or a preamp).
As an example, I've listened for SO-50 a couple of times from here in Washington, DC with my Baofeng UV-3R+ and Nagoya NA-774 telescopic whip. I can hear the satellite a bit, but still quite nosily, above 45 degrees. Back in August, I was in a field in the middle of nowhere and heard it very well from 5-7 degrees above the horizon.
Another example is that some people report decent telemetry success from AO-73 (when in high power mode) using nothing more than 1/4 wave whip. I've never been able to decode a single packet with that type of setup here in the city.
Most people live somewhere between the two extremes I've presented here of "field in the middle of nowhere" and "apartment building in a major urban center" so your mileage may vary. Just keep in mind that in any receiving system, you are looking for an optimal signal to noise ratio. If you have no noise, you don't need much signal and omnidirectional antennas might work fine. If you have a ton of noise, you are going to need a lot of signal from the satellite, which means a beam with decent gain.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:46 PM, Jim Walls jim@k6ccc.org wrote:
I built one about a decade or so ago and was grossly underwhelmed with
it.
I built it to use for a sat igate. I was able to decode maybe one or two packets per day. Everything else was lost in the noise floor.. Only had about 20 feet of RG-214 cable to the receiver.
Jim - K6CCC
From: "Joe" nss@mwt.net Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:37 AM To: "amsat-bb@amsat org" amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Homebrew Up-Dated Eggbeater Antenna Has anyone built this antenna, and what are your opinions? Meet all the claims being made?
http://wb5rmg.somenet.net/k5oe/Eggbeater_2.html
Joe WB9SBD
Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect
the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (6)
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Andrew Glasbrenner -
Bill Attwood -
Douglas Phelps -
Joe -
Matt Patterson -
Robert Bruninga