Well first of all the article that appeared in QST a little while back made it sound too darn easy, which yes it is, but not on field Day.
The problem with Satellites and field day in my mind it relates to the way the rules are set up. Yes ARRL and AMSAT both stipulate that only one FM QSO per FM Satellite per field day station. The issue is in ARRL rules is that all Satellite contacts whether FM or SSB are seen as the same, then if somebody does hog the transponder trying to get multiple contacts on an FM bird, there is no way on the field day logging rules to throw those extra contacts out. On 91, I threw my call out twice made one contact and was gone. I spent most of my effort on linear satellites and ignored other FM passes.
I do think you should look at this in a positive light. The growth in the number of amateur radio satellite has spurred a renewed interest in this aspect of a hobby and thus we have a potential easier time promoting AMSAT to more and more hams. Field day is a great place to do that because most of the people that come out are either already into amateur radio or new to the hobby and get excited about interest areas and that’s where AMSAT people need to get out of their house and to local clubs and field day set ups to do what we do will help to educate people and maybe save some of the bad behavior on the FM birds.
I had my share of issues and problems this weekend, but I had fun and in ONLY six hours of operating beat my score from last year so that was a win. I also got to do some education too and that helps the future of our aspect of the hobby.
73. Tom. N5HYP
Hi Tom-
I wrote the article that appeared in the June QST.
The point of my article was to explain that making FM satellite QSOs during Field Day was, in fact, very difficult if you didn’t practice in advance. I made an effort to hammer that point home several times.
I’m curious how you think the article could have been improved.
Thanks!
Sean KX9X
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2018, at 4:29 PM, Tom Schuessler tjschuessler@verizon.net wrote:
Well first of all the article that appeared in QST a little while back made it sound too darn easy, which yes it is, but not on field Day.
The problem with Satellites and field day in my mind it relates to the way the rules are set up. Yes ARRL and AMSAT both stipulate that only one FM QSO per FM Satellite per field day station. The issue is in ARRL rules is that all Satellite contacts whether FM or SSB are seen as the same, then if somebody does hog the transponder trying to get multiple contacts on an FM bird, there is no way on the field day logging rules to throw those extra contacts out. On 91, I threw my call out twice made one contact and was gone. I spent most of my effort on linear satellites and ignored other FM passes.
I do think you should look at this in a positive light. The growth in the number of amateur radio satellite has spurred a renewed interest in this aspect of a hobby and thus we have a potential easier time promoting AMSAT to more and more hams. Field day is a great place to do that because most of the people that come out are either already into amateur radio or new to the hobby and get excited about interest areas and that’s where AMSAT people need to get out of their house and to local clubs and field day set ups to do what we do will help to educate people and maybe save some of the bad behavior on the FM birds.
I had my share of issues and problems this weekend, but I had fun and in ONLY six hours of operating beat my score from last year so that was a win. I also got to do some education too and that helps the future of our aspect of the hobby.
- Tom. N5HYP
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I think the ARRL thoroughly understands the impact of making contacts via satellites on field day. Satellites contacts aren’t intended for racking up contacts, that is why they offer a 100 point bonus for making any satellite contact.
As a simulated emergency, Field Day is realistic because of the chaos. It teaches patience and persistence. It isn’t meant to be easy, it’s meant to be fun while learning.
I would, however, suggest a slight rule change for FM birds. Allow two consecutive contacts by making a contact then serving as the next person in control of the frequency. Example, I break through and complete a call. I announce my call and ask QRZ, pick a call out of the pile-up, complete the call and hand things over to the new guy and clear out. Each subsequent contact would be handled in the same way. This would create a little order and give folks a fighting chance to break through.
73, EMike
EMike McCardel, AA8EM Rotating Editor AMSAT News Service Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2018, at 11:29 AM, Tom Schuessler tjschuessler@verizon.net wrote:
Well first of all the article that appeared in QST a little while back made it sound too darn easy, which yes it is, but not on field Day.
The problem with Satellites and field day in my mind it relates to the way the rules are set up. Yes ARRL and AMSAT both stipulate that only one FM QSO per FM Satellite per field day station. The issue is in ARRL rules is that all Satellite contacts whether FM or SSB are seen as the same, then if somebody does hog the transponder trying to get multiple contacts on an FM bird, there is no way on the field day logging rules to throw those extra contacts out. On 91, I threw my call out twice made one contact and was gone. I spent most of my effort on linear satellites and ignored other FM passes.
I do think you should look at this in a positive light. The growth in the number of amateur radio satellite has spurred a renewed interest in this aspect of a hobby and thus we have a potential easier time promoting AMSAT to more and more hams. Field day is a great place to do that because most of the people that come out are either already into amateur radio or new to the hobby and get excited about interest areas and that’s where AMSAT people need to get out of their house and to local clubs and field day set ups to do what we do will help to educate people and maybe save some of the bad behavior on the FM birds.
I had my share of issues and problems this weekend, but I had fun and in ONLY six hours of operating beat my score from last year so that was a win. I also got to do some education too and that helps the future of our aspect of the hobby.
- Tom. N5HYP
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
So EMike, I think you are proposing that one should only INITIATE two calls (and one of them counts for your 100pt bonus). The rest of the time you would have people be willing to respond to a call initiated by someone else, but not be the one to effectively call CQ/QRZ? All of these count as contacts on a band, and you are also doing a service for those initiating. That would sort of answer the question that came to my mind in all of this: If each organization only made one satellite call, then you quickly run out of participants to answer the call :-)
73,
Burns WB1FJ
Burns,
I’m not sure we follow each other. But I think we do.
One, 100 point bonus per entity for a satellite contact no matter how many are made on different satellites. In my example you call CQ or QRZ, I return my call, you pick it out and answer, I confirm. You confirm. I then call CQ or QRZ, Someone else returns my call, I pick it out and answer, They confirm. I confirm. They then CQ or QRZ etc. Points, 1 x 100 point bonus. Two, one point contact points. What I see is everyone calling at once. Somebody, maybe, gets through by calling someone they heard and continue if they don’t get stepped on.
Clarify? 73, EMike
EMike McCardel, AA8EM Rotating Editor AMSAT News Service Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2018, at 2:51 PM, Burns Fisher burns@fisher.cc wrote:
So EMike, I think you are proposing that one should only INITIATE two calls (and one of them counts for your 100pt bonus). The rest of the time you would have people be willing to respond to a call initiated by someone else, but not be the one to effectively call CQ/QRZ? All of these count as contacts on a band, and you are also doing a service for those initiating. That would sort of answer the question that came to my mind in all of this: If each organization only made one satellite call, then you quickly run out of participants to answer the call :-)
73,
Burns WB1FJ
I too tried a couple passes, and found the typical poor operating procedures to be a major part of the problem.
1. On the FM sats I really see no reason for calling CQ, yet we get it during field day like crazy.
2. If I throw my call out with my exchange as 2A OR for example, I'm clearly looking for the contact, I don't need your grid square and you don't need mine to complete the exchange.
3. Personally, I try for two contacts in case the first one fails to log it or something and I miss the points.
But, just trying to rack up a bunch of one pointers while there are many looking for a 100 point contact isn't very helpful. It is different than most other modes as the coverage area changes by the second. It seems reasonable that if you get in solid and someone hears you, that others may call you as well, so probably better to stand by the mic in case anyone else calls you rather than call CQ or anything.
Just my two cents, still a fun mode, just a circus on field day and lots of not so good operating.
73 -------------
One, 100 point bonus per entity for a satellite contact no matter how many are made on different satellites. In my example you call CQ or QRZ, I return my call, you pick it out and answer, I confirm. You confirm. I then call CQ or QRZ, Someone else returns my call, I pick it out and answer, They confirm. I confirm. They then CQ or QRZ etc. Points, 1 x 100 point bonus. Two, one point contact points. What I see is everyone calling at once. Somebody, maybe, gets through by calling someone they heard and continue if they don’t get stepped on.
EMike, I think we are on the same page. All I was trying to say was that if everyone only talks to one other person and then goes to 20m or whatever, then pretty quickly there is no one there to answer someone who is trying to get his 100 points. So your idea, I think, is good. Initiate only 1 or 2 (rather than crowding the bird with your call repeated over and over) but be there to answer someone else.
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 6:18 PM, E.Mike McCardel mccardelm@gmail.com wrote:
Burns,
I’m not sure we follow each other. But I think we do.
One, 100 point bonus per entity for a satellite contact no matter how many are made on different satellites. In my example you call CQ or QRZ, I return my call, you pick it out and answer, I confirm. You confirm. I then call CQ or QRZ, Someone else returns my call, I pick it out and answer, They confirm. I confirm. They then CQ or QRZ etc. Points, 1 x 100 point bonus. Two, one point contact points. What I see is everyone calling at once. Somebody, maybe, gets through by calling someone they heard and continue if they don’t get stepped on.
Clarify? 73, EMike
EMike McCardel, AA8EM Rotating Editor AMSAT News Service Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2018, at 2:51 PM, Burns Fisher burns@fisher.cc wrote:
So EMike, I think you are proposing that one should only INITIATE two
calls (and one of them counts for your 100pt bonus). The rest of the time you would have people be willing to respond to a call initiated by someone else, but not be the one to effectively call CQ/QRZ? All of these count as contacts on a band, and you are also doing a service for those initiating. That would sort of answer the question that came to my mind in all of this: If each organization only made one satellite call, then you quickly run out of participants to answer the call :-)
73,
Burns WB1FJ
I don't think the below is true:
"The issue is in ARRL rules is that all Satellite contacts whether FM or SSB are seen as the same, then if somebody does hog the transponder trying to get multiple contacts on an FM bird, there is no way on the field day logging rules to throw those extra contacts out"
"7.3.7.1 Stations are limited to one (1) completed QSO on any single channel FM satellite."
which is referenced here:
"Satellite QSOs also count for regular QSO credit. Show them listed separately on the summary sheet as a separate "band." You do not receive an additional bonus for contacting different satellites, though the additional QSOs may be counted for QSO credit unless prohibited under Rule 7.3.7.1"
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018, 11:31 Tom Schuessler tjschuessler@verizon.net wrote:
Well first of all the article that appeared in QST a little while back made it sound too darn easy, which yes it is, but not on field Day.
The problem with Satellites and field day in my mind it relates to the way the rules are set up. Yes ARRL and AMSAT both stipulate that only one FM QSO per FM Satellite per field day station. The issue is in ARRL rules is that all Satellite contacts whether FM or SSB are seen as the same, then if somebody does hog the transponder trying to get multiple contacts on an FM bird, there is no way on the field day logging rules to throw those extra contacts out. On 91, I threw my call out twice made one contact and was gone. I spent most of my effort on linear satellites and ignored other FM passes.
I do think you should look at this in a positive light. The growth in the number of amateur radio satellite has spurred a renewed interest in this aspect of a hobby and thus we have a potential easier time promoting AMSAT to more and more hams. Field day is a great place to do that because most of the people that come out are either already into amateur radio or new to the hobby and get excited about interest areas and that’s where AMSAT people need to get out of their house and to local clubs and field day set ups to do what we do will help to educate people and maybe save some of the bad behavior on the FM birds.
I had my share of issues and problems this weekend, but I had fun and in ONLY six hours of operating beat my score from last year so that was a win. I also got to do some education too and that helps the future of our aspect of the hobby.
- Tom. N5HYP
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Not sure which is the point of confusion here, but when I queried the ARRL last week before Field Day I was told that “Satellite” was a band and that Mode was irrelevant ( because I wanted to see if I could work a station on both SSB and Cw.)
I was a little surprised by that as we’ve never duped cw against ssb on an HF band.
But in everyone’s defense, the ARRL Rules for sat ops are a bit cryptic and might benefit from a little tweaking by an AMSAT board member perhaps..
73 Scott Ka9p
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 25, 2018, at 1:31 PM, John Brier johnbrier@gmail.com wrote:
I don't think the below is true:
"The issue is in ARRL rules is that all Satellite contacts whether FM or SSB are seen as the same, then if somebody does hog the transponder trying to get multiple contacts on an FM bird, there is no way on the field day logging rules to throw those extra contacts out"
"7.3.7.1 Stations are limited to one (1) completed QSO on any single channel FM satellite."
which is referenced here:
"Satellite QSOs also count for regular QSO credit. Show them listed separately on the summary sheet as a separate "band." You do not receive an additional bonus for contacting different satellites, though the additional QSOs may be counted for QSO credit unless prohibited under Rule 7.3.7.1"
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018, 11:31 Tom Schuessler tjschuessler@verizon.net wrote:
Well first of all the article that appeared in QST a little while back made it sound too darn easy, which yes it is, but not on field Day.
The problem with Satellites and field day in my mind it relates to the way the rules are set up. Yes ARRL and AMSAT both stipulate that only one FM QSO per FM Satellite per field day station. The issue is in ARRL rules is that all Satellite contacts whether FM or SSB are seen as the same, then if somebody does hog the transponder trying to get multiple contacts on an FM bird, there is no way on the field day logging rules to throw those extra contacts out. On 91, I threw my call out twice made one contact and was gone. I spent most of my effort on linear satellites and ignored other FM passes.
I do think you should look at this in a positive light. The growth in the number of amateur radio satellite has spurred a renewed interest in this aspect of a hobby and thus we have a potential easier time promoting AMSAT to more and more hams. Field day is a great place to do that because most of the people that come out are either already into amateur radio or new to the hobby and get excited about interest areas and that’s where AMSAT people need to get out of their house and to local clubs and field day set ups to do what we do will help to educate people and maybe save some of the bad behavior on the FM birds.
I had my share of issues and problems this weekend, but I had fun and in ONLY six hours of operating beat my score from last year so that was a win. I also got to do some education too and that helps the future of our aspect of the hobby.
- Tom. N5HYP
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi!
Just like with any of the other bands used for Field Day, ARRL's Field Day rules provide for 3 modes for use with the "Satellite" band - CW, Digital, and Phone. There is no separation in the Phone category for SSB vs. FM, nor is there any separation in the Digital category between packet, RTTY, PSK31, FT8, or any of the other digital modes. Where AMSAT's Field Day rules allow me to work a station across different satellites, and possibly even different modes on the same satellite (CW vs. SSB, or packet vs. PSK31 for NO-84), ARRL's rules don't go to that detail.
I know that I will not be able to count several of my satellite contacts for the ARRL Field Day submission. For example, I worked KB6LTY on AO-91 in FM, CAS-4B in SSB, and NO-84 in packet. For ARRL's rules, one of the non-packet QSOs is a dupe, since there is only a "phone" mode for satellites - just like there is only a "phone" mode for each HF band.
Again, this is something I've dealt with for many years, including not scoring contacts that exceed the one-QSO-per-FM-satellite rule, or contacts that are considered dupes under one set of Field Day rules (usually the ARRL's rules). It really isn't hard to deal with, but there are differences between the two rulesets that have to be addressed - if you plan on making an entry for your Field Day effort.
73!
Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK http://www.wd9ewk.net/ Twitter: @WD9EWK or http://twitter.com/WD9EWK
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 8:32 PM, Scott McDonald via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Not sure which is the point of confusion here, but when I queried the ARRL last week before Field Day I was told that “Satellite” was a band and that Mode was irrelevant ( because I wanted to see if I could work a station on both SSB and Cw.)
Yes the rules do definitely state the 1 contact rule for FM satellites. What you do here are operators who still try to rack up multiple contacts on the FM sats during FD and that only adds to the overload problem. My point was that since it is a "Honor system" type of thing. Someone running 150 watts into a decent beam can easily make multiple QSOs on an FM FD pass and all his QSOs still count for point (1 point only, but points just the same) and in ARRL FD rules, there is no way to disincentivize those operators from doing that. Now since the AMSAT rules do ask you to list contacts by satellite, it is easy to see if someone is running more than one contact on an FM bird. We won't see that reflected in ARRL rules so no use getting to hyped up over the issue.
There really will never be a good solution to this. Just hope that more stations get on the linear birds during FD, and than everyone can have lots of fun with lower frustration levels and more completed contacts.
-----Original Message----- From: John Brier johnbrier@gmail.com Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 1:32 PM To: Tom Schuessler tjschuessler@verizon.net Cc: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM sats and FD
I don't think the below is true:
"The issue is in ARRL rules is that all Satellite contacts whether FM or SSB are seen as the same, then if somebody does hog the transponder trying to get multiple contacts on an FM bird, there is no way on the field day logging rules to throw those extra contacts out"
"7.3.7.1 Stations are limited to one (1) completed QSO on any single channel FM satellite."
which is referenced here:
"Satellite QSOs also count for regular QSO credit. Show them listed separately on the summary sheet as a separate "band." You do not receive an additional bonus for contacting different satellites, though the additional QSOs may be counted for QSO credit unless prohibited under Rule 7.3.7.1"
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018, 11:31 Tom Schuessler tjschuessler@verizon.net wrote:
Well first of all the article that appeared in QST a little while back made it sound too darn easy, which yes it is, but not on field Day.
The problem with Satellites and field day in my mind it relates to the way the rules are set up. Yes ARRL and AMSAT both stipulate that only one FM QSO per FM Satellite per field day station. The issue is in ARRL rules is that all Satellite contacts whether FM or SSB are seen as the same, then if somebody does hog the transponder trying to get multiple contacts on an FM bird, there is no way on the field day logging rules to throw those extra contacts out. On 91, I threw my call out twice made one contact and was gone. I spent most of my effort on linear satellites and ignored other FM passes.
I do think you should look at this in a positive light. The growth in the number of amateur radio satellite has spurred a renewed interest in this aspect of a hobby and thus we have a potential easier time promoting AMSAT to more and more hams. Field day is a great place to do that because most of the people that come out are either already into amateur radio or new to the hobby and get excited about interest areas and that’s where AMSAT people need to get out of their house and to local clubs and field day set ups to do what we do will help to educate people and maybe save some of the bad behavior on the FM birds.
I had my share of issues and problems this weekend, but I had fun and in ONLY six hours of operating beat my score from last year so that was a win. I also got to do some education too and that helps the future of our aspect of the hobby.
- Tom. N5HYP
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
An easy solution to this is to have ARRL Field Day not count satellite QSOs (on the FM birds or otherwise) for QSO points. Has anyone from AMSAT approached the ARRL Field Day committee about this?
Another easy solution is to move AMSAT Field Day to another day. Then there will be much less competition for the limited FM satellite resources and both Field Days would benefit.
73, Ryan AI6DO
On Monday, June 25, 2018, 4:55:23 PM PDT, tjschuessler@verizon.net tjschuessler@verizon.net wrote:
Yes the rules do definitely state the 1 contact rule for FM satellites. What you do here are operators who still try to rack up multiple contacts on the FM sats during FD and that only adds to the overload problem. My point was that since it is a "Honor system" type of thing. Someone running 150 watts into a decent beam can easily make multiple QSOs on an FM FD pass and all his QSOs still count for point (1 point only, but points just the same) and in ARRL FD rules, there is no way to disincentivize those operators from doing that. Now since the AMSAT rules do ask you to list contacts by satellite, it is easy to see if someone is running more than one contact on an FM bird. We won't see that reflected in ARRL rules so no use getting to hyped up over the issue.
There really will never be a good solution to this. Just hope that more stations get on the linear birds during FD, and than everyone can have lots of fun with lower frustration levels and more completed contacts.
participants (10)
-
Burns Fisher -
Daron Wilson -
E.Mike McCardel -
John Brier -
Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) -
Ryan Noguchi -
Scott McDonald -
Sean Kutzko -
tjschuessler＠verizon.net -
Tom Schuessler