Re: 9 Cubesats selected for free ESA ride to space
Am I missing something here?
We would all like to see several transponders going up the way they did in the 90's...myself included. But it just isn't going to happen that way anymore.
So...a college or other group wants to launch some satellites, and ask for our help? What's the problem?
Bill has the right attitude pertaining to these little sats...think of them as "satellites in training". Learning the construction principles, tracking, control from the ground, and collection of telemetry allows for more "useful" birds to built in the future.
Now, let's all play nicely again. Have some patience...new toys WILL be coming for us to play with.
John KB2HSH
On 8 Jun 2008, at 07:54, John Marranca, Jr wrote:
Am I missing something here?
I think so.
Let's take a look at the definition of the amateur service.
"Amateur Service: A radiocommunication service for the purpose of self-training, intercommunication and technical investigations carried out by amateurs, that is, duly authorised persons interested in radio technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest." [RR 1.56]
Most folks around the world read this as meaning that amateurs are:
[1] "duly authorized," that is, licensed
[2] "persons," that is, individual, human type people (not families, clubs, schools, or corporations)
[NOTE: Even club station licenses have a licensed individual, who is individually responsible for operation of the club station, serving as trustee of the license.]
[3] "with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest," that is, only for themselves and without compensation of any kind.
In this world of very high priced access to radio frequencies, our amateur service is quite unique. Our access is by examination and not a fee. The frequencies are available to us, individual people. The frequencies are not available to any kind of group or institution or corporation. These frequencies are not available who stand to gain from their use beyond their own personal interest. (An experimental service is available for commercial interests.)
To me, our frequency allocations require protection from those who look them as frequencies of convenience, that is, a way to avoid going through the normal licensing and frequency coordination process.
Suggest reading this paper submitted to the IARU Region 1 meeting. http://www.ok2kkw.com/iaru/ct08_c5_03%20iaru%20c5%20support%20for%20satellit...
It's easy to look to someone with money, like a school, to provide amateurs with resources we may not be able to afford readily. In my personal opinion, the price may be too high to assure an amateur service in years to come.
FWIW, the IARU Panel does not try to judge whether a frequency coordination request is legitimate, in terms of the radio regulations. Rather, guidance from the IARU to the Panel is that such a determination is a matter for administrations, that is, the part of each government responsible for complying with obligations undertaken in the International Telecommunication Convention. The best the Panel can hope to do is try to keep the bands reasonably well organized so as to maximize use and minimize interference. Not an easy task.
Just one guy's ramblings. I hope you find them helpful.
73, art..... W4ART Arlington VA
Life is short. Be swift to love! Make haste to be kind! - Henri Frederic Amiel, philosopher and writer (1821-1881)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Arthur Feller" afeller@ieee.org To: "John Marranca, Jr" KB2HSH@amsat.org Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 8:10 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: 9 Cubesats selected for free ESA ride to space
On 8 Jun 2008, at 07:54, John Marranca, Jr wrote:
Am I missing something here?
I think so.
Let's take a look at the definition of the amateur service.
"Amateur Service: A radiocommunication service for the purpose of self-training, intercommunication and technical investigations carried out by amateurs, that is, duly authorised persons interested in radio technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest." [RR 1.56]
Most folks around the world read this as meaning that amateurs are:
[1] "duly authorized," that is, licensed
[2] "persons," that is, individual, human type people (not families, clubs, schools, or corporations)
[NOTE: Even club station licenses have a licensed individual, who is individually responsible for operation of the club station, serving as trustee of the license.]
[3] "with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest," that is, only for themselves and without compensation of any kind.
In this world of very high priced access to radio frequencies, our amateur service is quite unique. Our access is by examination and not a fee. The frequencies are available to us, individual people. The frequencies are not available to any kind of group or institution or corporation. These frequencies are not available who stand to gain from their use beyond their own personal interest. (An experimental service is available for commercial interests.)
To me, our frequency allocations require protection from those who look them as frequencies of convenience, that is, a way to avoid going through the normal licensing and frequency coordination process.
Suggest reading this paper submitted to the IARU Region 1 meeting.
http://www.ok2kkw.com/iaru/ct08_c5_03%20iaru%20c5%20support%20for%20satellit e%20frequency%20coordination.pdf
It's easy to look to someone with money, like a school, to provide amateurs with resources we may not be able to afford readily. In my personal opinion, the price may be too high to assure an amateur service in years to come.
FWIW, the IARU Panel does not try to judge whether a frequency coordination request is legitimate, in terms of the radio regulations. Rather, guidance from the IARU to the Panel is that such a determination is a matter for administrations, that is, the part of each government responsible for complying with obligations undertaken in the International Telecommunication Convention. The best the Panel can hope to do is try to keep the bands reasonably well organized so as to maximize use and minimize interference. Not an easy task.
Just one guy's ramblings. I hope you find them helpful.
73, art..... W4ART Arlington VA
Life is short. Be swift to love! Make haste to be kind! - Henri Frederic Amiel, philosopher and writer (1821-1881)
Hi Art, W4ART
I agree 100% with what you write...........
I was reading the above paper presented by the satellite Advisor ZS6AKV and agree with him.
I know Hans personally because I meet him during the IARU Region 1 Conference 1999 in Lillehammer when I was the Delegate into the C-5 Commission for ARI i.e. the IARU member Society in Italy.
The main problem here is that the Universities are able to bypass both our national IARU member societies and our AMSAT national organizations and they get directly in contact with ESA
If you read here:
http://www.esa.int/esaED/SEM2BPUG3HF_index_0.html
you will see that IARU and AMSAT are not mentioned at all and this is why I says:
"But once they have the ESA/NASA/JAXA-sponsored GENSO project running, they will probably even not need our help anymore, but only our frequencies !!! "
Best 73" de
i8CVS Domenico
Hi, Domenico!
Thanks for writing.
On 8 Jun 2008, at 16:34, i8cvs wrote:
The main problem here is that the Universities are able to bypass both our national IARU member societies and our AMSAT national organizations and they get directly in contact with ESA
Actually, any "customer" can do that. Remember, IARU member societies are private ground and, generally, not regulatory authorities. What the member societies can do is approach their administrations when they see problems.
One might ask many administrations, including my own, whether or not they should review more carefully what their licensees are doing in space.
"But once they have the ESA/NASA/JAXA-sponsored GENSO project running, they will probably even not need our help anymore, but only our frequencies !!! "
And, that, in a nutshell, is the point. Some of the University related operations are legitimately amateur projects. Others, in my opinion, are not. Those are the ones that trouble me and others.
73, art..... W4ART Arlington VA
Life is short. Be swift to love! Make haste to be kind! - Henri Frederic Amiel, philosopher and writer (1821-1881)
participants (3)
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Arthur Feller -
i8cvs -
John Marranca, Jr