I thought being a member of AMSAT was about keeping amateur radio in space, learning about satellites and for some of us working amateur radio satellites in space. Since the last election AMSAT seems to be about nothing but politics and misinformation. In my opinion AMSAT was a lot more fun to be apart of before the last election. All the politics and misinformation drives people away from AMSAT and is not good for the organization. I have been told in the past by one of the new board members that all of this is necessary for change to happen. I don't see that AMSAT has to go through some fundamental change or movement. I am tired of the new AMSAT since the last election. I am seriously considering not renewing my membership and I know plenty of other that are considering the same. When will all of this end so we can start enjoying AMSAT again and working satellites?
Brian D. Karcher KG5GJT
On July 13, 2020 at 8:55 AM [email protected] wrote:
Send AMSAT-BB mailing list submissions to [email protected]
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected]
You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected]
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of AMSAT-BB digest..."
Today's Topics:
- Back after a 2 yr absence (Armando Mercado)
- Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Michelle Thompson)
- Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (David Swanson)
- Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Hans BX2ABT)
- AMSAT Member Mailing list (Bruce Perens)
- Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Bruce Perens)
- Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Bruce Perens)
- Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Bruce Perens)
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 01:57:45 -0400 From: Armando Mercado [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Back after a 2 yr absence Message-ID: CAOgooFkH6TK5L=zMEvg7qis17gh-QOz1T2UVT3361i1=SNPN_Q@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I recently renewed my membership. Looks like I have a lot of catching up to do. Armando, N8IGJ
Message: 2 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 03:29:49 -0700 From: Michelle Thompson [email protected] To: Kevin [email protected] Cc: AMSAT BB [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list Message-ID: CACvjz2U2fCYU4r8fLYE49HG80VHCRh9_LyW-5QQ5JP-cdNkUsA@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Yes, I can.
That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly clarified before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark asked me about it, as part of the record.
Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.
He ran the election.
He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350 words, would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not include links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of July holiday with a deadline of the 7th.
This is different than any election before, where statements went directly to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and no one from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection themselves) had any control over the content of their challengers' statements.
We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four challengers) already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up six weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link to.
We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing list, and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.
I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.
Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and distributed it widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios and statements.
I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said yes. Since he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted the return address to not be his private home address, but a business address. That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I used his preferred return address.
I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I sent the letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.
That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not included with the ballots mailed out, at all.
If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the primary factor. We were running against well-known people.
We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past and seemed set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.
The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only ballot. Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need to be mailed out on paper. Paper was required.
This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting, in March, for a bylaws committee.
This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of organizations doing electronic voting with working published bylaws.
Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot about the return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was commonly done in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to use AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce was speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. *That* would be improper.
No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return address. We were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have time or funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short notice. The printer required a real return address.
No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me because I contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion. That is a neat story in and of itself,, for another time.
Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for postage.
The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.
All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the board that signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark brought it up at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the record.
I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate twisting of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate statements out to voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and Bruce was very generous in writing a cover letter.
Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for election purposes.
So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.
Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce Perens, and ORI.
-Michelle W5NYV
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:
Hello All,
In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we all received as members.
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Le...
I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed before.
"AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to Open Research Institute."
Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a seriousbreech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost? was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say "out in the wind"?
Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something that was procured online?
AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in the future.
I look forward to an answer
73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Message: 3 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:32:38 -0500 From: David Swanson [email protected] To: Michelle Thompson [email protected] Cc: AMSAT BB [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list Message-ID: CANq+eyWHQ8o369h6=fqi1PJLWuMGP-1dTVj5Oej2CstAPY8S-w@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Spin Spin Spin. The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the AMSAT member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity for the purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address, yet ORI sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any attempt to explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director Thompson about the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As I keep saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and this community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB < [email protected]> wrote:
Yes, I can.
That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly clarified before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark asked me about it, as part of the record.
Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.
He ran the election.
He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350 words, would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not include links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of July holiday with a deadline of the 7th.
This is different than any election before, where statements went directly to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and no one from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection themselves) had any control over the content of their challengers' statements.
We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four challengers) already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up six weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link to.
We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing list, and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.
I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.
Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and distributed it widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios and statements.
I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said yes. Since he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted the return address to not be his private home address, but a business address. That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I used his preferred return address.
I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I sent the letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.
That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not included with the ballots mailed out, at all.
If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the primary factor. We were running against well-known people.
We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past and seemed set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.
The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only ballot. Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need to be mailed out on paper. Paper was required.
This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting, in March, for a bylaws committee.
This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of organizations doing electronic voting with working published bylaws.
Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot about the return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was commonly done in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to use AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce was speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. *That* would be improper.
No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return address. We were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have time or funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short notice. The printer required a real return address.
No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me because I contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion. That is a neat story in and of itself,, for another time.
Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for postage.
The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.
All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the board that signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark brought it up at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the record.
I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate twisting of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate statements out to voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and Bruce was very generous in writing a cover letter.
Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for election purposes.
So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.
Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce Perens, and ORI.
-Michelle W5NYV
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:
Hello All,
In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we all received as members.
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Le...
I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed before.
"AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to Open Research Institute."
Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a seriousbreech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost? was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say "out in the wind"?
Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something that was procured online?
AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in the future.
I look forward to an answer
73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Message: 4 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 20:02:25 +0800 From: Hans BX2ABT [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list Message-ID: [email protected] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
On 7/13/20 7:32 PM, David Swanson via AMSAT-BB wrote:
Spin Spin Spin.
I think this is the biggest problem in the world right now.
People simply don't want to believe each other any more, or even entertain the thought that the "opponent" might be (partially) right or acting in good faith. Mistakes cannot be forgiven, because they are always made with malicious intent. And one's own actions are always right, because the other party is always wrong.
The trenches are dug, the weapons are loaded: let's go to war.
In the meantime the Russians give us Sputnik RS-44 (almost MEO), the Chinese shoot cool experiments into space (albeit with the quality of most stuff made in China) and the Germans achieve the first geo-stationary amateur payload. What does AMSAT-NA achieve? The world is already shaking its head when the USA are mentioned because of how it handles COVID-19. Now the amateur radio world laughs at how AMSAT-NA is handling itself. To quote your great leader: "So sad!"
73 de Hans (BX2ABT)
P.S. not an AMSAT-NA member, just here to share and learn about satellites. Now ducking for incoming flak.
The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the AMSAT member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity for the purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address, yet ORI sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any attempt to explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director Thompson about the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As I keep saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and this community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB < [email protected]> wrote:
Yes, I can.
That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly clarified before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark asked me about it, as part of the record.
Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.
He ran the election.
He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350 words, would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not include links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of July holiday with a deadline of the 7th.
This is different than any election before, where statements went directly to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and no one from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection themselves) had any control over the content of their challengers' statements.
We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four challengers) already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up six weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link to.
We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing list, and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.
I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.
Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and distributed it widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios and statements.
I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said yes. Since he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted the return address to not be his private home address, but a business address. That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I used his preferred return address.
I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I sent the letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.
That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not included with the ballots mailed out, at all.
If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the primary factor. We were running against well-known people.
We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past and seemed set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.
The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only ballot. Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need to be mailed out on paper. Paper was required.
This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting, in March, for a bylaws committee.
This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of organizations doing electronic voting with working published bylaws.
Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot about the return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was commonly done in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to use AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce was speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. *That* would be improper.
No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return address. We were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have time or funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short notice. The printer required a real return address.
No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me because I contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion. That is a neat story in and of itself,, for another time.
Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for postage.
The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.
All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the board that signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark brought it up at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the record.
I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate twisting of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate statements out to voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and Bruce was very generous in writing a cover letter.
Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for election purposes.
So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.
Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce Perens, and ORI.
-Michelle W5NYV
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:
Hello All,
In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we allreceived as members.
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Le...
I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed before.
"AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to Open Research Institute."
Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a seriousbreech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost? was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say "out in the wind"?
Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something that was procured online?
AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in the future.
I look forward to an answer
73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Message: 5 Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 20:33:38 -0700 From: Bruce Perens [email protected] To: AMSAT BB [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list Message-ID: CAK2MWOs9Vjn46XSXiOt-a_453vZnObB5GsPF+RhZV7EuryDyLg@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Bruce Perens [email protected] Date: Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 8:32 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list To: Kevin [email protected]
The mailing list was never compromised. But my HOME address, under "Open Research Institute" was used as the return address. This was a mistake and I didn't ask for it. I was, however, the author of the mailer, in which I introduced the candidates. The mailing was done by a bulk Mail company and did not involve me. I got one returned letter, informed someone responsible who had a right to see that address, and promptly forgot it.
Thanks
Bruce
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 7:11 PM Kevin via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:
Hello All,
In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we all received as members.
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Le...
I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed before.
"AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to Open Research Institute."
Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a seriousbreech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost? was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say "out in the wind"?
Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something that was procured online?
AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in the future.
I look forward to an answer
73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Message: 6 Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 21:08:35 -0700 From: Bruce Perens [email protected] To: Kevin [email protected], AMSAT BB [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list Message-ID: CAK2MWOskn_hhT4MpdhwQ2-nz7P44u+SUVuYvr-PYd7P8k3-ARw@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
The candidates are allowed the use of the mailing list for their campaign. If you read the bylaws, they make it very clear. One of the candidates did all of the handling of the mailing list.
Incidentally, the board was not aware that they had to give the mailing list to the candidates. This was something the candidates had to tell them, after I read the bylaws. Had the board run things the way they desired, only a board controlled 200 word statement would have reached you from the candidates, except for the incumbents, who have had free use of AMSAT's official publications to carry their opinions.
In a more perfect world, the board would have known their own bylaws, or at least the secretary who was running the election would have read them.
But in a more perfect world, two people were trying to reform the organization with not face quite this uphill a battle.
Thanks
Bruce
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:00 PM Kevin [email protected] wrote:
Well how did the bulk mailing company get the AMSAT member mailing list if AMSAT did not provide it?
Kevin
On 7/12/2020 8:32 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
The mailing list was never compromised. But my HOME address, under "Open Research Institute" was used as the return address. This was a mistake and I didn't ask for it. I was, however, the author of the mailer, in which I introduced the candidates. The mailing was done by a bulk Mail company and did not involve me. I got one returned letter, informed someone responsible who had a right to see that address, and promptly forgot it.
Thanks
Bruce
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 7:11 PM Kevin via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:
Hello All,
In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we all received as members.
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Le...
I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed before.
"AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to Open Research Institute."
Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a seriousbreech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost? was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say "out in the wind"?
Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something that was procured online?
AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in the future.
I look forward to an answer
73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Message: 7 Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 21:48:21 -0700 From: Bruce Perens [email protected] To: Kevin [email protected] Cc: AMSAT BB [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list Message-ID: CAK2MWOu-sb=r3bn14TwkT37m_LVhhj+rGrMHM90O0O_nQkjYuw@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Kevin,
No, I never saw the mailing list . I didn't do the mailing . I only wrote the content .
So, why was I involved at all ?
I won't say I'm the best tech evangelist you know, because that is for other people to judge. However, if you count the Open Source movement in software; the campaign for the elimination of the Morse code requirement for Amateur Radio licenses, which among other things I got on the front page of the New York Times, above the fold; My work to help elect a new ARRL board to end the confidentiality versus transparency debacle; And my global appearance for IBM's "Dear Tech", campaign, which got at least 50000 television and Internet airplays;
If you count all those things, I am probably the person you want introducing you as a candidate, and I might be a good person to tell you how to run a campaign.
As it happens I wrote my own campaign, which I was going to put out under my own name, endorsing those candidates. And then the candidates chose to use it as their main campaign statement. This was very flattering and entirely their own choice.
As an ARRL member, it was my right to participate in their election, and it is my right to participate in AMSAT's.
Thanks
Bruce K6BP
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:29 PM Kevin [email protected] wrote:
Bruce, So hang on a moment, you're telling me that the candidates are allowed to use the mailing list for their campaign (fine), but rather than them doing it themselves they turned the task over to you? So you were in possession of the mailing list and then you turned it over to the bulk mailing center when you authored the mailer?
Kevin WA7FWF #19623
On 7/12/2020 9:08 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
The candidates are allowed the use of the mailing list for their campaign. If you read the bylaws, they make it very clear. One of the candidates did all of the handling of the mailing list.
Incidentally, the board was not aware that they had to give the mailing list to the candidates. This was something the candidates had to tell them, after I read the bylaws. Had the board run things the way they desired, only a board controlled 200 word statement would have reached you from the candidates, except for the incumbents, who have had free use of AMSAT's official publications to carry their opinions.
In a more perfect world, the board would have known their own bylaws, or at least the secretary who was running the election would have read them.
But in a more perfect world, two people were trying to reform the organization with not face quite this uphill a battle.
Thanks
Bruce
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:00 PM Kevin [email protected] wrote:
Well how did the bulk mailing company get the AMSAT member mailing list if AMSAT did not provide it?
Kevin
On 7/12/2020 8:32 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
The mailing list was never compromised. But my HOME address, under "Open Research Institute" was used as the return address. This was a mistake and I didn't ask for it. I was, however, the author of the mailer, in which I introduced the candidates. The mailing was done by a bulk Mail company and did not involve me. I got one returned letter, informed someone responsible who had a right to see that address, and promptly forgot it.
Thanks
Bruce
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 7:11 PM Kevin via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:
Hello All,
In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we all received as members.
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Le...
I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed before.
"AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to Open Research Institute."
Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a seriousbreech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost? was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say "out in the wind"?
Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something that was procured online?
AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in the future.
I look forward to an answer
73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Message: 8 Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 22:30:29 -0700 From: Bruce Perens [email protected] To: Kevin [email protected] Cc: AMSAT BB [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list Message-ID: CAK2MWOsYiCqnWi8igTOnVC-vh_Xo=yFtZKYgwwgnzYF-6qNfPQ@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
The candidate felt that since I wrote the letter, that the return address should be mine. I didn't ask for it, I especially did not ask for my home address, which is not in the call book, to be used. As it happens, I found out about one silent key member in the return mail, which I passed on and promptly forgot. I work for lawyers all day in my consulting business, and thus I read the rules, I understand the rules, I follow the rules. These are not, by the way, Robert's Rules of Order. These are things like what a director is responsible for, and how to run an election. It really bothers me that the incumbents didn't know those rules.
Thanks
Bruce
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 10:11 PM Kevin [email protected] wrote:
Well Bruce,
Something doesn't jive here, " I didn't do the mailing . I only wrote the content " then it seems the candidate would have been the person that was dealing with the bulk mailer and would have had their return address listed and it would not have been your home address on it.
Guess it's time to pick a different bulk mailer.
Kevin WA7FWF #19623
On 7/12/2020 9:48 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
Kevin,
No, I never saw the mailing list . I didn't do the mailing . I only wrote the content .
So, why was I involved at all ?
I won't say I'm the best tech evangelist you know, because that is for other people to judge. However, if you count the Open Source movement in software; the campaign for the elimination of the Morse code requirement for Amateur Radio licenses, which among other things I got on the front page of the New York Times, above the fold; My work to help elect a new ARRL board to end the confidentiality versus transparency debacle; And my global appearance for IBM's "Dear Tech", campaign, which got at least 50000 television and Internet airplays;
If you count all those things, I am probably the person you want introducing you as a candidate, and I might be a good person to tell you how to run a campaign.
As it happens I wrote my own campaign, which I was going to put out under my own name, endorsing those candidates. And then the candidates chose to use it as their main campaign statement. This was very flattering and entirely their own choice.
As an ARRL member, it was my right to participate in their election, and it is my right to participate in AMSAT's.
Thanks
Bruce K6BP
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:29 PM Kevin [email protected] wrote:
Bruce, So hang on a moment, you're telling me that the candidates are allowed to use the mailing list for their campaign (fine), but rather than them doing it themselves they turned the task over to you? So you were in possession of the mailing list and then you turned it over to the bulk mailing center when you authored the mailer?
Kevin WA7FWF #19623
On 7/12/2020 9:08 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
The candidates are allowed the use of the mailing list for their campaign. If you read the bylaws, they make it very clear. One of the candidates did all of the handling of the mailing list.
Incidentally, the board was not aware that they had to give the mailing list to the candidates. This was something the candidates had to tell them, after I read the bylaws. Had the board run things the way they desired, only a board controlled 200 word statement would have reached you from the candidates, except for the incumbents, who have had free use of AMSAT's official publications to carry their opinions.
In a more perfect world, the board would have known their own bylaws, or at least the secretary who was running the election would have read them.
But in a more perfect world, two people were trying to reform the organization with not face quite this uphill a battle.
Thanks
Bruce
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:00 PM Kevin [email protected] wrote:
Well how did the bulk mailing company get the AMSAT member mailing list if AMSAT did not provide it?
Kevin
On 7/12/2020 8:32 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
The mailing list was never compromised. But my HOME address, under "Open Research Institute" was used as the return address. This was a mistake and I didn't ask for it. I was, however, the author of the mailer, in which I introduced the candidates. The mailing was done by a bulk Mail company and did not involve me. I got one returned letter, informed someone responsible who had a right to see that address, and promptly forgot it.
Thanks
Bruce
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 7:11 PM Kevin via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:
Hello All,
In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we all received as members.
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Le...
I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed before.
"AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to Open Research Institute."
Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like aserious breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost? was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say "out in the wind"?
Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something that was procured online?
AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in the future.
I look forward to an answer
73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Subject: Digest Footer
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 241
I worked a satellite just this morning. They are still up there. Just have to step away from the computer and turn on the radio.
Steve Ai9IN
----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Karcher via AMSAT-BB ([email protected]) Date: 07/13/20 12:10 To: [email protected], [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
I thought being a member of AMSAT was about keeping amateur radio in space, learning about satellites and for some of us working amateur radio satellites in space. Since the last election AMSAT seems to be about nothing but politics and misinformation. In my opinion AMSAT was a lot more fun to be apart of before the last election. All the politics and misinformation drives people away from AMSAT and is not good for the organization. I have been told in the past by one of the new board members that all of this is necessary for change to happen. I don't see that AMSAT has to go through some fundamental change or movement. I am tired of the new AMSAT since the last election. I am seriously considering not renewing my membership and I know plenty of other that are considering the same. When will all of this end so we can start enjoying AMSAT again and working satellites?
Brian D. Karcher KG5GJT
It's not that simple Brian. If you follow that line of thinking then people by the thousands would be renouncing their American citizenship because of the current shitshow in Washington, but I haven't heard of that happening.
The best thing to do is stay in the game, sort through the hysteria and misinformation and exercise your right to vote when the time comes. Then you can move Amsat back to becoming an organization you'll want to remain a part of.
Ok, back to sleep for me!
73,
Ken Alexander, VE3HLS So Phisai, Thailand Blog: bueng-ken.com
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 2:52 AM Steve Kristoff via AMSAT-BB < [email protected]> wrote:
I worked a satellite just this morning. They are still up there. Just have to step away from the computer and turn on the radio.
Steve Ai9IN
----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Karcher via AMSAT-BB ([email protected]) Date: 07/13/20 12:10 To: [email protected], [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
I thought being a member of AMSAT was about keeping amateur radio in space, learning about satellites and for some of us working amateur radio satellites in space. Since the last election AMSAT seems to be about nothing but politics and misinformation. In my opinion AMSAT was a lot more fun to be apart of before the last election. All the politics and misinformation drives people away from AMSAT and is not good for the organization. I have been told in the past by one of the new board members that all of this is necessary for change to happen. I don't see that AMSAT has to go through some fundamental change or movement. I am tired of the new AMSAT since the last election. I am seriously considering not renewing my membership and I know plenty of other that are considering the same. When will all of this end so we can start enjoying AMSAT again and working satellites?
Brian D. Karcher KG5GJT
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
AMSAT Membership, OK.... I'm saturated!!! AMSAT-BB is going to SPAM from this point on. My Mailbox has become filled with non-stop posts about whatever this nightmare actually is and whatcountless people are opining about it. I can't take any more and several folksthat are long-time Members have told me the same. At this point, I don't carehow it ends as long as it ends. I'll check back in a couple weeks. 73 & CUL, Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593, Since 1979)
_______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Same here I have had it.
Egon VE6EGN/SA3EGN -----Original Message----- From: Bob Liddy (K8BL) via AMSAT-BB Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 2:50 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
AMSAT Membership, OK.... I'm saturated!!! AMSAT-BB is going to SPAM from this point on. My Mailbox has become filled with non-stop posts about whatever this nightmare actually is and whatcountless people are opining about it. I can't take any more and several folksthat are long-time Members have told me the same. At this point, I don't carehow it ends as long as it ends. I'll check back in a couple weeks. 73 & CUL, Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593, Since 1979)
_______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (5)
-
Bob Liddy (K8BL) -
Brian Karcher -
egon -
Kenneth P Alexander -
Steve Kristoff