Hi Dave,

This is my first shot at this e-survey thing, so it's a work in progress. I don't think Mr. Gallop will be threatened. I wanted to find a simple way to get membership views.

I've appreciated all the comments and suggestions I've received to date.

Regards...Bill - N6GHz

Dave Guimont wrote:

At 01:15 PM 7/21/2008, you wrote:

...

I will be using this simple, easy e-survey format to get membership opinion on future topics. This is my first go at it, so I hope that I selected the right buttons to make it work. Let me know if you run into any issues at . . .

I took the survey, great idea, but I saw no mention of an option for a LEO similar to 07 ssb/cw??

The cost of a HEO appears to be prohibitive, but I certainly don't want another AO51!!! So I was forced to choose HEO...

       73, Dave, WB6LLO
           dguimon1@san.rr.com

               Disagree: I learn....

          Pulling for P3E...

On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 19:00 -0400, John Price wrote:

I for one am very opposed to the 3 and 10 gig transponder. I have seen little or no interest in the 1.2 uplink. Folks are not willing to spend $500.00 to work a transponder that is mostly quite and could go away over night like 2.4 did with AO-40. Did anyone listen to the L/u AO-51 on Field Day. While V/u was jammed I worked the first station I heard on L/u and there were maybe 5 others on that pass. I don't maintain 1.2 gig equipment here. It is not worth the investment.

And what would be the trigger for you to invest in the equipment? There is NO GAURUNTEES that any of these new birds will get to orbit in one peice. Look at AO-40. She was a GREAT birds at the beginning, then something happened and all we had were a couple of uplinks with one downlink.

Where is your sense of adventure with experimenting with something new and untested? How are you helping advance the Art of Amateur Radio and Satellites if we are STUCK back in the stone ages with 2m and 70cm and FM birds?

I for one would and have invested in the higher bands as I am also using that equipment for Rovering and some contesting which I have found that I really like. I also use this equipment to talk around my area/state. This equipment with a little modification is can also be used for when we have a HEO or GEO satellite in orbit.

I WANT more digital store-and-forward birds along with more Sideband voice birds on bands OTHER than 2mand 70cm. Right now there is no CHALLENGE in the current crop of satellites we have when all I can do MOST of the time is get on and have enough time to get a GRID SQUARE and a NAME/CALLSIGN of the person I am talking to. I want to be able to hold a net where I can talk to a NUMBER of people and find out more about everyone or ask for help and get it. I want to be able to send video via these new birds of my latest project or of the 'kids' as they operate. I want to be able to demonstrate what Amatuer radio is and can do that the internet can't. I want to be able to TINKER on these new birds with a new mode that I have either developed or have an interest in. I want to be able to use that new microwave transverter for things other than to talk to or see (video) locals.

Where is EVERYONES sense of experimentation or did we as amateur radio operators/licenses leave that at the door when we got licensed or are we just content with what has been done and happy to sit on our laurels and let the world leave us behind as a group that WILL die out in about twenty/thirty years as we don't have any NEW blood to carry on with the experimentation, thinking, and tinkering? Are we going to let the INTERNET be the thing to determine how and where we go as a group? Everyone on here gripes about how the internet is taking away everything what about how we are making things interesting to entice these people in the hobby and into Satellites? Where is the challenge anymore? I want to be able to EXPERIMENT on thse new crop of birds, not just sit around on 2m and 70cm and make a couple quick qso's to exchange grid squares!!!

Bill, I looked at your webpage and see that you MIGHT have a reason to have new birds up and running other than just as a member that wants to help out AMSAT through these trying times. I see no problem with that at all as AMSAT has had others like you on the BoD before and they have done a great job of not compromising their integrity as a Director. I just don't see anything saying if you are a owner or an employee of this company. Could you enlighten me and the others before I make a decision on which three candidates are the best?

James W8ISS - a voting member that has issues with the current crop of APPLIANCE OPERATORS on the amateur bands!!!

Hello John,

Thanks for taking the time to express your views.

Regarding your comments about my employment and as stated in the ballot statement, I run a RF.microwave components company. While some of the products can be used in satellite applications, I seriously doubt that could constitute any conflict of interest by my running for the board.

Quite the contrary, I think AMSAT could benefit from having more folks like me with technology industry experience helping guide AMSAT's future. After all, a satellite is one big hunk of state of the art technology.

Regards...Bill - N6GHz , John Price wrote:

James, I wont be investing in 3 gig equipment. If I had plenty of money and lots of expertise all things would be possible. In the real world it just don't work that way. You are trying to sell Amateur Satellite service to the masses by offering them a chance to work something that they can't use or afford. The time and expense that is put into developing transponders that you can't buy a radio to work is not practical. Do you know that Yaesu has withdrawn from the satellite market? Kenwood offers the 1.2 gig module for there 2000 at a cost of an additional $500.00 making that radio over $2000.00. That is it as far as I know for off the shelf rigs for 1.2 gig. Downeast has a upconverter for about the same cost as the Kenwood module. Now in the real world that is a bunch to invest to add one band to your station.

Your comment concerning appliance operators sure wont endear many new hams to Amsat. I have no formal training in electronics. I spent 25 years as a Deputy Sheriff and knew nothing of ham radio or electronics when I got my ticket. Over the past 20 years I have learned a little thanks to a bunch of wonderful skilled hams. Together with one of my friends a RF engineer who retired from GE we built a 1.2 gig station for field day a year ago out of a old Master III and a signal generator. Got the contact and was mighty proud. I have listened on L/u a few times since and have worked three contacts. If the 3 gig flys I might decide to do the same thing. My point is how many of those "appliance operators" are going to be able to do the same. We are going to have another satellite with a bunch of electronics that might get used by 10 people.

My since of adventure is tempered by my practicallity I guess.

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 9:45 PM, James French w8iss@wideopenwest.com wrote:

...

On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 19:00 -0400, John Price wrote:

...

I for one am very opposed to the 3 and 10 gig transponder. I have seen little or no interest in the 1.2 uplink. Folks are not willing to spend $500.00 to work a transponder that is mostly quite and could go away over night like 2.4 did with AO-40. Did anyone listen to the L/u AO-51 on Field Day. While V/u was jammed I worked the first station I heard on L/u and there were maybe 5 others on that pass. I don't maintain 1.2 gig equipment here. It is not worth the investment.

And what would be the trigger for you to invest in the equipment? There is NO GAURUNTEES that any of these new birds will get to orbit in one peice. Look at AO-40. She was a GREAT birds at the beginning, then something happened and all we had were a couple of uplinks with one downlink.

Where is your sense of adventure with experimenting with something new and untested? How are you helping advance the Art of Amateur Radio and Satellites if we are STUCK back in the stone ages with 2m and 70cm and FM birds?

I for one would and have invested in the higher bands as I am also using that equipment for Rovering and some contesting which I have found that I really like. I also use this equipment to talk around my area/state. This equipment with a little modification is can also be used for when we have a HEO or GEO satellite in orbit.

I WANT more digital store-and-forward birds along with more Sideband voice birds on bands OTHER than 2mand 70cm. Right now there is no CHALLENGE in the current crop of satellites we have when all I can do MOST of the time is get on and have enough time to get a GRID SQUARE and a NAME/CALLSIGN of the person I am talking to. I want to be able to hold a net where I can talk to a NUMBER of people and find out more about everyone or ask for help and get it. I want to be able to send video via these new birds of my latest project or of the 'kids' as they operate. I want to be able to demonstrate what Amatuer radio is and can do that the internet can't. I want to be able to TINKER on these new birds with a new mode that I have either developed or have an interest in. I want to be able to use that new microwave transverter for things other than to talk to or see (video) locals.

Where is EVERYONES sense of experimentation or did we as amateur radio operators/licenses leave that at the door when we got licensed or are we just content with what has been done and happy to sit on our laurels and let the world leave us behind as a group that WILL die out in about twenty/thirty years as we don't have any NEW blood to carry on with the experimentation, thinking, and tinkering? Are we going to let the INTERNET be the thing to determine how and where we go as a group? Everyone on here gripes about how the internet is taking away everything what about how we are making things interesting to entice these people in the hobby and into Satellites? Where is the challenge anymore? I want to be able to EXPERIMENT on thse new crop of birds, not just sit around on 2m and 70cm and make a couple quick qso's to exchange grid squares!!!

Bill, I looked at your webpage and see that you MIGHT have a reason to have new birds up and running other than just as a member that wants to help out AMSAT through these trying times. I see no problem with that at all as AMSAT has had others like you on the BoD before and they have done a great job of not compromising their integrity as a Director. I just don't see anything saying if you are a owner or an employee of this company. Could you enlighten me and the others before I make a decision on which three candidates are the best?

James W8ISS - a voting member that has issues with the current crop of APPLIANCE OPERATORS on the amateur bands!!!

---

Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

...

Quite the contrary, I think AMSAT could benefit from having more folks like me with technology industry experience helping guide AMSAT's future. After all, a satellite is one big hunk of state of the art technology.

Regards...Bill - N6GHz

I voted for you. KB7ADL

I'm sure a lot of us voted for him, or will..

Finally, we get some positive statements of what will be done, instead of trying to justify what has been done...

Shades of Robin, I guess 10 years ago!!

73, Dave, WB6LLO dguimon1@san.rr.com

Disagree: I learn....

Pulling for P3E...

On Jul 21, 2008, at 7:45 PM, James French wrote:

James W8ISS - a voting member that has issues with the current crop of APPLIANCE OPERATORS on the amateur bands!!!

I reply locally to this sentiment the same way I'll reply here James.

"When and where is your next class, and is it suited to people with zero technical knowledge? I'll send the announcement to the 400 members of my repeater club, you'll probably have a big crowd and even bigger for the second session, if you have any idea what you're doing as an instructor."

Better yet... "Why should anyone with technical knowledge feel or act superior to someone who doesn't have it? Shouldn't you be helping them learn? Didn't you have an Elmer or some other way to learn this knowledge?"

Or perhaps the meanest one used to plonk someone whining about this locally this week, "Did you pop out of your momma knowing CW and how to read a Smith Chart?"

This "I hate non-techies" attitude many older "technical" hams seem to have, gets old. Do you think it's helping the hobby any? Think about it.

Do something about it if it distresses you so much. Teach. Now. Not "someday" when you have time. Make videos. Whatever... just do it and quit complaining.

As someone else pointed out, much of the current growth in ham radio is in 50-something males who now have time and money and can buy rigs and get on the air. Your job, if you want the hobby to be "more technical" than them just buying rigs and using them... is to a) give them a reason why they should learn something they don't need -- which they'll also figure out on their own, given time... and b) a forum in which to learn... that's as convenient and fun for them as turning on that $1000 rig and talking to people.

Neither one is easy. Whining about it is easy, though.

Got a good reason a guy with $2000 burning a hole in his pocket needs to learn about superheterodyne receivers, James? I don't. He can buy one with all the fancy features and use it today without needing to know anything about how it works.

Just because you like to learn (as do I -- there's a reason I took months to read the ARRL Antenna Manual from cover to cover), doesn't mean the new folks do. What motivated you? Would it work on them?

Guilt trips and bad attitudes from old-timers will certainly be ignored... get used to it. Find another (more positive) way.

-- Nate Duehr, WY0X nate@natetech.com

AMSAT sent out a survey many years ago andthat is where our current path has lead. personally I don't think surveys can substitute for the lack of money, volunteers and elbow grease.

after all, I bet you could put a question out there... if a satellite were launched, would you use it? after receiving 100% reply in favor, you are still in the same boat.

subjective questions can lead the response in the direction you would prefer by giving less desirable possibilities for the other answers.

it is no longer a matter of build it and it will get launched. i think our efforts of going geostationary on a commercial satellite is going to be the best we can do right now.

73...bruce

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 21, 2008, at 6:01 PM, "Robert Bruninga" bruninga@usna.edu wrote:

...

So, to get the current thinking of the membership, I invite you take the simple, anonymous, no cost (probably unscientific) survey that I have prepared to determine your operating preferences at . . . . .

http://www.surveygizmo.com/s/55247/amsat-operating-preferences

Although I applaud the effort an initiative to prepare such a survey, I'm not comfortable with the questions and answers, because I don't think they will do much to help the membership or officers make an informed decision, because the questions are not phrased to extracting a cost-benefit response.

We would all like the best possible satellite providing 24/7 worldwide communications to a small 18" antenna that provides both voice, data, video, and internet. The problem is, -at-what-cost-and-what-tradeoffs???

Unless each question that offers a benefit, also weighs that benefit against the cost and risk, and loss of other efforts, the data is of little meaningfull value.

...

I will be using this simple, easy e-survey format to get membership opinion on future topics.

Problem is, everyone has an opinion. It is not until you force the opinionated to select their favorite opinon at the expense of what they have to lose or give up, that such a survey has value...

...

Let me know if you run into any issues...

Again, I appreciate your approach and incentive, but to be meaningful, I think the questions and selected answers have to be better designed to give tradeoffs, not just opinions.

Good luck. Thanks Bob, WB4APR

---

Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

Obviously, the GEO is probably the most expensive, with HEO being close to it,

Not necessarily. A small package on Intelsat may be significantly more affordable than Eagle. On the other hand, putting everything from Eagle on Intelsat would likely be more expensive. There are also considerably different risks. Eagle has all the things we've been good about messing up previously, and a Intelsat rideshare has almost none. As Bob B said earlier...there are several tradeoffs to consider, and let me say even the BOD doesn't have the full details to consider yet.

Personally, I'm in favor of doing whatever project gets us on station with long distance comms first, without breaking the piggybank, or too much risk. It is, without a doubt, a very difficult and complicated decision.

73, Drew KO4MA

Honestly, thanks for chiming into the BB, Drew. It is my hope that all the other directors are reading.

73,

Dave AF6KD (ex n0tgd)

I think most do, even if they don't admit it. It can be difficult though when people sling accusations that border on libel. I know I read every message, but usually only chime in when it will serve a purpose, is in a civil discourse, and isn't the same set of circular rants we have all heard before from the usual suspects.

73, Drew KO4MA

On Jul 22, 2008, at 7:27 AM, Alan P. Biddle wrote:

There is always a faction in any organization, whether it be political, religious, labor union, or hobby, that assumes that if the leaders just did their job correctly, all of that organization's goals would be achieved already. Since they are not, it is taken as proof that the leadership is lacking, or worse.

Hell, that's the driving theme of every U.S. Presidential candidate for my entire adult life so far. "The other group has a guy that's a poor leader. I'll be a better one."

You'd think ONE of them would realize how boring that gong is and voice some real goals!

(Sorry, off-topic... I know.)

It's not a faction -- it's human nature. People think the grass is always greener on the other side.

Rising above that broken thought process is something few even attempt, this list having NUMEROUS examples of how unnatural it is, to do so.

The reality is that the grass only gets greener if you care enough to work on it. The guys with the green grass did and didn't ask for "leadership" to approve or fund it. They find their own ways.

Taking control of one's own actions and outcomes is somehow very difficult for a lot of people. Whining is usually the end-result of them not being able to do it.

-- Nate Duehr, WY0X nate@natetech.com