If the desire is to promote Amateur Radio Satellites on Field Day for the greater majority there will be more stations with V/U and/or V/S capability than L/S or L/U capability based on historical observation. You can promote variety or you can promote AMSAT to the greater Amateur Radio community. Field Day should be a day utilized to promote Amateur Radio Satellites, not a separate or elite group that the majority will fail to achieve without more unique equipment required. If we fail to reach the greater Amateur Radio community we may fail to reach out to a greater number of new recruits.

73's, Tim - N8DEU

----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg D." ko6th_greg@hotmail.com To: glasbrenner@mindspring.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org; ao51-modes@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 10:29 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AO-51 update

I'd vote for either L/U or L/S, which ever is easier on the batteries.

Greg KO6TH

...

Additionally, the AO51-modes group would like your input on the desired Field Day mode. We will likely be limited to one transmitter operation. With AO-27, SO-50, and possibly SO-67 and HO-68 on V/U FM, S band or L/U operation is looking very promising to provide some variety.

73, Drew KO4MA AMSAT-NA VP Operations _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

---

The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PI... _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

Tim,

Your point is valid. There is another way to look at this, though. In general I find that on Field Day the mode FM birds are NOT a good way to show 2-way satellite communications to a group or club. I have tried to make a contact (portable, handheld operations) for the last few years, and it's been a bust. I have generally gone to just receiving the birds, rather than creating an expectation for a contact that I can't deliver.

And AO-51 isn't the only operational bird...so putting the bird into mode L/S or L/U might actually allow more stations to make contacts on Field Day.

Food for thought :)

Mark N8MH

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Tim Cunningham tim_cunningham@charter.net wrote:

If the desire is to promote Amateur Radio Satellites on Field Day for the greater majority there will be more stations with V/U and/or V/S capability than L/S or L/U capability based on historical observation. You can promote variety or you can promote AMSAT to the greater Amateur Radio community. Field Day should be a day utilized to promote Amateur Radio Satellites, not a separate or elite group that the majority will fail to achieve without more unique equipment required. If we fail to reach the greater Amateur Radio community we may fail to reach out to a greater number of new recruits.

73's, Tim - N8DEU

----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg D." ko6th_greg@hotmail.com To: glasbrenner@mindspring.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org; ao51-modes@amsat.org Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 10:29 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AO-51 update

...

I'd vote for either L/U or L/S, which ever is easier on the batteries.

Greg  KO6TH

...

Additionally, the AO51-modes group would like your input on the desired Field Day mode. We will likely be limited to one transmitter operation. With AO-27, SO-50, and possibly SO-67 and HO-68 on V/U FM, S band or L/U operation is looking very promising to provide some variety.

73, Drew KO4MA AMSAT-NA VP Operations _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

---

The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PI... _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

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...

...to promote Amateur Radio Satellites on Field Day for the greater majority there will be more stations with V/U and/or V/S capability than L/S or L/U capability based on historical observation.

Which is why it is not a good idea to use V/U because it demonstrates a totally saturated and unuseable satellite channel. Uplink congestion on VHF where the link budget is 20 dB stronger than the downlink is the limiting factor and it is total bedlam/gridlock on FD and is a poor demonstration to the rest of the community and to other observers.

The L/U would be the best demo, because the uplink contention will be much less, yet EVERY field-day site can demo the downlink. The FD demo should not set themselves up such that a successful 2-way is required for success. Such stations will fail. It won't happen, or if it does, it happens by stomping all over others. This is not a good dsmonstration for ham radio at FD.

OK, Bob, I am convinced that L/U might be a better display of Amateur Radio Satellites for the newcomer on Field Day. The sticking point remains there are many prospects who will not get the chance to listen to these bands. That is is unfortunate! Experience solidifies that Field Day is a poor time to demonstrate an FM satellite, so I am going to save a day other than Field Day to positively demo an FM bird. Any FM satellite will sound the same with the same number of participants. If you limit the playing field you simply reduce the number of players. I think this is how we get the an elitist label, but I will bite the bullet and demo L/U on Field Day if that is what is playing (a bigger radio and more gear unless I can get a converter to work with my D7A HT. Do you want to put a MIC-E position burst on the end of your transmisison? It may make an interesting Roger Beep... Can you count that as a 2-in-one contact (voice and digital?) to keep things interesting. Of course using 9600 baud for the MIC-E who would even notice the signal? Maybe a little innovation here?

Better to plan on success as demonstrated by good downlink reception. THen everyone is successful. And the downlink is nice and clean just as we all dream of.

Bob, WB4APR

I just got back from 7 days at Dinsey World with my 3 year old daughter and I still hear this phrase over and over in my head, "Dreams do come true, Dreams do come true...".

73's, Tim - N8DEU

...sorry, I meant to vote for V/U mode as I only have VHF/UHF equipment!

-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Ng, Peter Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 2:04 PM To: 'Tim Cunningham'; glasbrenner@mindspring.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org; ao51-modes@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AO-51 update

Yes, I agree with Tim as I was hoping to promote Amateur Radio Satellites on Field Day. I have had good results making contacts in the past and am crossing my fingers for Field Day! ...so I'm voting for V/S mode please! Also, my thanks to all the folks who work so hard to keep AO-51 going!

73, Peter NE7NGP

-----Original Message----- <Tim - N8DEU> If the desire is to promote Amateur Radio Satellites on Field Day for the greater majority there will be more stations with V/U ... </Tim - N8DEU>

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Hi Drew, thanks very much for your feedback! Guess I was too naïve earlier, but now see the light! :) Also after reading threads from Robert and Mark, I agree, there might be too much non-productive traffic and high expectations, especially on FD. I will stick to receive only as Mark suggested! My vote is changing to L/U ....just in case I can't find a 1.2 GHz receiver :) ...learning a lot from you guys and this list, thanks!

73, Peter VE7NGP

-----Original Message----- From: Andrew Glasbrenner [mailto:glasbrenner@mindspring.com] Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 2:33 PM To: Ng, Peter Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org; ao51-modes@amsat.org Subject: Re: Field Day mode for AO-51

Ng, Peter wrote:

...sorry, I meant to vote for V/U mode as I only have VHF/UHF equipment!

Keep in mind there will likely be three or four transponders birds, and two to four other FM birds available that weekend!

It's been my perception that a good portion of AMSAT's sustaining members leave and breathe the highest tech they can manage. Eight out of eight satellites being V/U seems counter to that goal.

Mark and Bob both make good points supporting at least one area of refuge for this portion of the AMSAT population. Personally, I think the V/U FM experience on Field Day is a big turnoff to newbies, especially since so many under-prepared, over-powered and out of practice once-a-year sat ops fail miserably to get those bonus points on FM.

I bet someone in your area has 1.2 Ghz capability!

73, Drew KO4MA

On Tue, 2010-05-04 at 07:20 -0500, Alan P. Biddle wrote:

Peter,

...

From past studies, mode L/U is the place to be if you want to work someone

on AO-51 without an EME station. ;) While the V/U FM repeater was choked on every pass, there were very few stations on L/U. In the four passes I monitored last year, totaling 46 minutes, there were only 21 station heard. Half of those were on the first pass, and by the last pass on Sunday, only one plaintive station calling.

Alan WA4SCA

Presumably that's because very few people have L- and S-band equipment. I'm guessing that many people are - like me - put off by the prohibitive cost and requirement for overcomplicated tracking systems.

Working V/U with a handheld antenna is much more fun than sitting watching a computer twiddle servos and tune the radio for you.

Gordon MM0YEQ

Agreed. Sure your arm gets tired after a long pass from satellites like HO-68, but half the fun is the simplicity and the other half being the challenge. I doubt I would personally get involved with L/U on LEO's like AO-51 because of the cost and complexity of having computer controlled servos to track them just for a 10 - 20 minute window that you only get once or twice a day depending on the LEO. Considering I work satellites mostly on weekends the amount of use it would get wouldn't be worth it for me. I'd be more likely to build a setup for working HEO's like AO-40 before building a setup for L/U work on LEO's due to the simplicity, larger foot print, and longer predictable window.

To be honest I would use FM on AO-51 as that is the most likely usage new comers to satellites will most likely end up using. If you want to demonstrate the raw rag chewing potential of satellites then demo a HEO like AO-40.

~73, KC2WQW

On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Gordon JC Pearce gordonjcp@gjcp.net wrote:

On Tue, 2010-05-04 at 07:20 -0500, Alan P. Biddle wrote:

...

Peter,

...

From past studies, mode L/U is the place to be if you want to work

someone

...

on AO-51 without an EME station. ;) While the V/U FM repeater was

choked

...

on every pass, there were very few stations on L/U. In the four passes I monitored last year, totaling 46 minutes, there were only 21 station

heard.

...

Half of those were on the first pass, and by the last pass on Sunday,

only

...

one plaintive station calling.

Alan WA4SCA

Presumably that's because very few people have L- and S-band equipment. I'm guessing that many people are - like me - put off by the prohibitive cost and requirement for overcomplicated tracking systems.

Working V/U with a handheld antenna is much more fun than sitting watching a computer twiddle servos and tune the radio for you.

Gordon MM0YEQ

---

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I have L band gear. When the bird is in L/U Luc and I have a great time talking to each other. When the bird is in V/U I'll make half a dozen or more contacts in a pass. I voted for mode L, because I didn't believe V/U was an option and S band is becoming too full of interference.

I have a couple questions:

1. The folks who can't eek out a contact with the handheld and Arrow during Field Day, have you practiced? It's how I have done it the last couple of years without that much trouble, patience and timing are the keys :-). We have a good Field Day location where I can see down to the horizon.

2. Has the single contact per FM bird rule really helped anyone? In the old days a couple big stations got on and essentially ran the bird. Is it fair? NO! but they handed out a lot of QSOs and we seemed to get more AMSAT Field Day entries as well.

The one bird one contact has been a noble experiment, maybe it is time to examine the results.

Hats off to the controllers for starting the discussion!

73, Just My Thoughts, Joe kk0sd

-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Glasbrenner Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 4:33 PM To: Ng, Peter Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org; ao51-modes@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Field Day mode for AO-51

Ng, Peter wrote:

...sorry, I meant to vote for V/U mode as I only have VHF/UHF equipment!

Keep in mind there will likely be three or four transponders birds, and two to four other FM birds available that weekend!

It's been my perception that a good portion of AMSAT's sustaining members leave and breathe the highest tech they can manage. Eight out of eight satellites being V/U seems counter to that goal.

Mark and Bob both make good points supporting at least one area of refuge for this portion of the AMSAT population. Personally, I think the V/U FM experience on Field Day is a big turnoff to newbies, especially since so many under-prepared, over-powered and out of practice once-a-year sat ops fail miserably to get those bonus points on FM.

I bet someone in your area has 1.2 Ghz capability!

73, Drew KO4MA _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

I have a couple questions:

1. The folks who can't eek out a contact with the handheld and Arrow

during Field Day, have you practiced? It's how I have done it the last couple of years without that much trouble, patience and timing are the keys :-). We have a good Field Day location where I can see down to the horizon.

Time is limited for many people and Field Day unfortunately is a time for many to experiment with their buddies. Satellite? We can do that! Watch this? How many times have you cringed when you heard that? Now we have a group of buddies standing around with their favorite liquid beverage, known to cause judgmental impairment, having a good time laughing and tinkering... For some, this is their definition of Field Day while others take it a bit more seriously. There is a wide mix of people on Field Day and we have to accept that as a known historical fact. If they become disgruntled and say this is not the way I envision Field Day, they may not come back.

2. Has the single contact per FM bird rule really helped anyone? In the

old days a couple big stations got on and essentially ran the bird. Is it fair? NO! but they handed out a lot of QSOs and we seemed to get more AMSAT Field Day entries as well.

No, it has not helped promote more contacts on an FM satellite. It has only allowed chaos to reign (fewer contacts) on the FM satellites.

Historical and factual information can clearly answer this question. When there are big targets to hit (stations that can be heard clearly) things run smoother and more contacts are made. You can debate it, but the facts are clear and supported by this operators experience. We already know the end result and that it indeed produces more contacts at a faster rate to move them in and move them out of the way in DXpedition style. This net control operator style of operation turns chaos into something more predictable and controllable while handing out contacts to stations that may never have a chance with the numerous stations calling over top of each other. I can remember sitting in a chair many years ago (year 2000 to be exact) handing out 1 contact after another on an FM bird which really led to the creation of the rule for a perceived problem. At the time I did not feel good about doing it, but when we stopped doing it, chaos reigned once again. When we started net control operation again, contacts were being made at a rate of greater than 5 to 1. We looked at each other sitting at the radio and discussed how many contacts were made when we operated in this fashion and thought we were doing a service in the Field Day spirit by handing out contacts when none were being made or people were just calling over top of each other with no actual communication taking place. As we lost the bird another clear station came on and did the same thing. Unfortunately, this caused "The Great FM Satellite Field Day Rift" to give it a name. We were exercising what we thought was in the best interest of turning chaos (no contacts being made) to something more efficient and productive that undeniably allowed more contacts to be made.

Operation on FM satellites is more efficient with a control or net operator. This was a crafted communication skill utilized to solve the immediate problem of no contacts being made and it worked very well.

Thus, the rule added in the 2001 AMSAT Field Day Rules to limit contacts to 1 was instituted. The rule was clarified in 2001 by the statement:

[Operators are encouraged not to make any extra contacts via these satellites (Ex: UO14 &AO27).]

It is a reasonable rule to the extent of only allowing 1 point so somebody does not run up a score or monopolize points from another station in the AMSAT Field Day Competition. The problem is the rule went too far by encouraging operators not to make any additional contacts on these satellites. Statistics do not lie. They only validate the end result and there should be plenty of results since 2001.

Furthermore, in a June 2001 QST article written by Steve Ford, WB8IMY, he published the following statements:

[The politically correct thing for me to do is wag my finger at you and say, "you must not use more than 5 W on the 2-meter uplinks to these satellites. If we all play nicely and keep our power levels low, everyone will have a chance."]

[If you must run high power to capture a spot in the FM mob scene, at least be considerate. Once you've made a valid contact, get off (italics). Don't attempt to monopolize the birds throughout their 15-minute pass.]

It is naïve to think that everybody running 5W will solve the problem. It is Field Day and everybody is hungry for their bonus points for the ARRL Field Day. When there are a thousand stations trying to squeeze into the same pipe at the same time, you should expect chaos. There is no way everybody will get a chance to work an FM satellite on Field Day. It is not possible with the given bandwidth and time allotted. Somebody has to be above the noise (more ERP) to create a target to call. This is a well known FM capture effect.

Call it monopolizing the satellite or whatever you want, the point is being missed! We are suppose to be communicators and find ways to turn chaos into success. That success was demonstrated during a 2000 Field Day exercise. Limiting the number of points for the AMSAT Field Day Competition was a reasonable and fair thing to do. The problem is it went too far and discouraged operators from making any additional contacts. This is an easy problem to solve by striking that single statement from the rules.

Thinking back I could only imagine how many clubs, groups, or individuals were jumping up and down with joy because they made a contact on one of the FM birds with a net control operator issuing contacts at a rate greater than 5 to 1. The other reality is that a station is going to call a station that it hears clearly. Call it the contester in us or a DXpedition style of operation. If you are condemned to one contact, think about how much bandwidth is wasted because there are several stations calling you and you are encouraged not to answer them. This is what happens. Yes, we ignored the stations calling in 2002 because we complied with the suggestion of making 1 contact and "get off". It was very sad to continue to listen to the chaos in 2002 after our initial contact with no more discussion on solving the problem.

I always felt that the ARRL promoted net style operation to avoid chaos and create order in my 29 years of being a HAM. That is why Steve Ford's comments caught me by complete surprise. Nets are the entire reason I do not like to operate HF, because every time I got on HF to rag chew, several stations would join the discussion, and then announce a net was starting. Basically, the other stations checked in to chase those occupying their net frequency out of the way.

The one bird one contact has been a noble experiment, maybe it is time to examine the results.

Excellent idea! I can appreciate this.

73's,

Tim - N8DEU

Decatur, Alabama