... As long as we have these self proclaimed Satellite Instructors neglecting
the benefit of Full Duplex operation ...
Who are these "instructors?" Seems that would be a much smaller "target audience" for us to educate.
Every audience I have ever presented my sat show to (more than 73 shows, a few thousand attendees) have heard me state, "It is preferable to work the FM birds full-duplex, where you can monitor the downlink as you key your mic ... " - and I explain simple ways to accomplish that. Same "mantra" in a couple of CQ Magazine articles ... and during a Bob Heil / Gordon West "Ham Nation" segment ... same as I have written for Gordon West's licensing manuals ...
Well, with just this one "easily-worked" bird (not counting the ISS) up there, now more than ever should we be stressing working duplex.
But to be honest with you, after reading another thread yesterday regarding the "out of control" nature of SO-50, I had to see for myself what the "problem" was. So I worked a mediocre pass (about 25 degrees - and I only worked the first few minutes - BEFORE it was at its best elevation. I worked three states sitting on the grass out in the back yard with my demo setup of FT-60R and Arrow. (Don't tell anyone, but I did not work full duplex - I needed to see if I could experience the total failure to communicate that a couple others have written about. And try as I might, I couldn't fail ... After I made one call successfully, two others called me from around the country.)
YES - it got a little chaotic. YES - there were cases of people stepping on others. But it was not as gruesome as some have written - not as bad as a Field Day or a special event weekend. Heck, it was a FEDERAL HOLIDAY in the U.S., and I had no problem working three states with 2 Watts during the beginning of a 25 degree pass.
Are people getting into this aspect of the hobby with unrealistic expectations? And if they are, where are they getting their information about working the FM birds?
Clint Bradford K6LCS http://www.work-sat.com 909-241-7666 - cell
---------------------------------- Clint Bradford, K6LCS http://www.clintbradford.com
On 9/3/13, Clint Bradford clintbrad4d@earthlink.net wrote:
... As long as we have these self proclaimed Satellite Instructors neglecting
the benefit of Full Duplex operation ...
One thing I've noticed a few times on the linear birds is how some stations operate as if they're still on HF. They sometimes call CQ continuously without giving another station a chance to answer.
Now, whenever I call CQ, I stop transmitting for several seconds. That way, if anyone wants to answer will have a chance without us talking over each other.
73s
Bernhard VA6BMJ @ DO33FL
<snip>
Anything new on a replacement. Have not see a thing myself.
John
This has been asked many times. Instead of reiterating the reasons why one is not currently being worked on (at least by AMSAT-NA) I'll like you to an email that was on this list last week from Brent, KB1LQD, that AMSAT-UK picked up:
http://amsat-uk.org/2013/09/02/amateur-radio-cubesat-to-heo/
Hopefully this answers all your questions.
Bryce KB1LQC
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 12:32 PM, John Becker w0jab@big-river.net wrote:
Anything new on a replacement. Have not see a thing myself.
John
______________________________**_________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bbhttp://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
The AMSAT-DL presentation at the AMSAT-UK meeting was that their goverment decided not to fund their HEO project and they are still looking for a source of money. AMSAT-NA and AMSAT-UK are concentrating on LEO projects that they can pay for via members and alliances with universities and government agencies.
73,
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Becker" w0jab@big-river.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 19:32 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] A0 40 replacement
Anything new on a replacement. Have not see a thing myself.
John
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On a side note but still relevant, support the advancement of space vehicle technology and cheaper access to space! I hate to sound biased the commercial space industry is taking off (no pun intended) and the more commercial competition there is and less "Cost-Plus" contracts the better. The price per Kg right now is pretty staggering but with continued advancement and production quantity this will drop relatively fast. Although not fully here yet, reusability on a realistic scale will drastically change the market or even open a totally new market. The Space Shuttle was a great achievement and was reusable after a ~$1 billion annual maintenance bill, so not economically reusable.
Let's put it in another possible context:
Create an extremely dense and reliable LEO platform in cube-sat form that weigh's a fraction of AO-40's weight using today's high-density components/systems and create a reliable and feature rich HEO cubesat.
Thanks, Brent, KB1LQD
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 10:50 PM, John Stephensen kd6ozh@comcast.net wrote:
The AMSAT-DL presentation at the AMSAT-UK meeting was that their goverment decided not to fund their HEO project and they are still looking for a source of money. AMSAT-NA and AMSAT-UK are concentrating on LEO projects that they can pay for via members and alliances with universities and government agencies.
73,
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Becker" w0jab@big-river.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 19:32 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] A0 40 replacement
Anything new on a replacement.
Have not see a thing myself.
John
______________________________**_________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bbhttp://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
______________________________**_________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bbhttp://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On 09/04/2013 02:26 AM, Brenton Salmi wrote:
Let's put it in another possible context:
Create an extremely dense and reliable LEO platform in cube-sat form that weigh's a fraction of AO-40's weight using today's high-density components/systems and create a reliable and feature rich HEO cubesat.
The only problem with this, is that certain components can't be miniaturized. Example: Antennas. And HEO satellites need more sophisticated antennas.
Pity the cube-sat idea didn't finish up with a ten INCH cube...
-- 73, de Gus 8P6SM Barbados, the easternmost isle.
From: Gus The only problem with this, is that certain components can't be miniaturized. Example: Antennas. And HEO satellites need more sophisticated antennas.
Trueand the antenna system used on Aeneas showed how you can have a deployable 2400 MHz dish on a CubeSat. See pic at bottom of
http://amsat-uk.org/2012/09/13/amateur-radio-cubesats-to-launch-from-vandenb...
Deployable directional antennas can be built into CubeSats.
BTW For those that haven't seen it yet the AMSAT-DL update presentation given in July can be seen at
http://www.batc.tv/streams/amsat1306
73 Trevor M5AKA
Yea but increasing frequency helps with that. With directional antennas the satellite would need attitude control which would benefit greatly from miniaturization. For the most part, miniaturization would come from incorporating systems on chips. Most op amps and microcontrollers are much smaller than their packages so including those systems on a single die in a single package are capable of massive savings in space. This is what made smart phones even possible .
Gus 8p6sm@anjo.com wrote:
On 09/04/2013 02:26 AM, Brenton Salmi wrote:
Let's put it in another possible context:
Create an extremely dense and reliable LEO platform in cube-sat form
that
weigh's a fraction of AO-40's weight using today's high-density components/systems and create a reliable and feature rich HEO
cubesat.
The only problem with this, is that certain components can't be miniaturized. Example: Antennas. And HEO satellites need more sophisticated antennas.
Pity the cube-sat idea didn't finish up with a ten INCH cube...
-- 73, de Gus 8P6SM Barbados, the easternmost isle. _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Truly.
However, to include operators with modest shacks, you need to allow operation on modes A, B and/or J. A satellite operating on 24.0 GHz won't be of interest to the average ham. Not until the average ham has 24.0 GHz capable antennas, feedlines, amplifiers, transceivers, etc, in his shack.
It's a vicious circle. Smaller satellites are easier to launch, but support smaller antennas. This means higher frequencies, which excludes more potential users. Reduction in potential user-base leads to reduced support (financial) from said user-base. With less money to spend, it becomes more difficult to obtain a launch, and to build the highly miniaturized spacecraft in the first place.....
On 09/04/2013 11:31 AM, Bryce Salmi wrote:
Yea but increasing frequency helps with that. With directional antennas the satellite would need attitude control which would benefit greatly from miniaturization. For the most part, miniaturization would come from incorporating systems on chips. Most op amps and microcontrollers are much smaller than their packages so including those systems on a single die in a single package are capable of massive savings in space. This is what made smart phones even possible .
Gus 8p6sm@anjo.com wrote:
On 09/04/2013 02:26 AM, Brenton Salmi wrote: Let's put it in another possible context: Create an extremely dense and reliable LEO platform in cube-sat form that weigh's a fraction of AO-40's weight using today's high-density components/systems and create a reliable and feature rich HEO cubesat. The only problem with this, is that certain components can't be miniaturized. Example: Antennas. And HEO satellites need more sophisticated antennas. Pity the cube-sat idea didn't finish up with a ten INCH cube... -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM Barbados, the easternmost isle. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings:http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb-- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Correct, there is a happy medium that must be met in frequency/ease of use. This argument does not neglect the need for additional improvements on ground station capabilities. What's to stop the improvement of making accessing higher frequencies easier for the average ham operator? Putting some effort into both ends of the equation might force an overall improvement in all aspects of the problem.
With that happy medium comes the reality of actually obtaining a launch. Smaller satellites have a much better likelihood of actually flying for an affordable price. There's a nice saying in the rocket world that applies nicely to the satellite world.
"The worst rocket is the rocket that never flies"
Bryce KB1LQC
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 10:43 AM, Gus 8p6sm@anjo.com wrote:
Truly.
However, to include operators with modest shacks, you need to allow operation on modes A, B and/or J. A satellite operating on 24.0 GHz won't be of interest to the average ham. Not until the average ham has 24.0 GHz capable antennas, feedlines, amplifiers, transceivers, etc, in his shack.
It's a vicious circle. Smaller satellites are easier to launch, but support smaller antennas. This means higher frequencies, which excludes more potential users. Reduction in potential user-base leads to reduced support (financial) from said user-base. With less money to spend, it becomes more difficult to obtain a launch, and to build the highly miniaturized spacecraft in the first place.....
On 09/04/2013 11:31 AM, Bryce Salmi wrote:
Yea but increasing frequency helps with that. With directional antennas the satellite would need attitude control which would benefit greatly from miniaturization. For the most part, miniaturization would come from incorporating systems on chips. Most op amps and microcontrollers are much smaller than their packages so including those systems on a single die in a single package are capable of massive savings in space. This is what made smart phones even possible .
Gus 8p6sm@anjo.com wrote:
On 09/04/2013 02:26 AM, Brenton Salmi wrote: Let's put it in another possible context: Create an extremely dense and reliable LEO platform in cube-sat form that weigh's a fraction of AO-40's weight using today's high-density components/systems and create a reliable and feature rich HEO cubesat. The only problem with this, is that certain components can't be miniaturized. Example: Antennas. And HEO satellites need more sophisticated antennas. Pity the cube-sat idea didn't finish up with a ten INCH cube... -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM Barbados, the easternmost isle. ------------------------------**------------------------------**
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of theauthor. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings:http://amsat.org/**mailman/listinfo/amsat-bbhttp://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
-- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
-- 73, de Gus 8P6SM Barbados, the easternmost isle.
On 9/4/2013 12:43 PM, Gus wrote:
Truly.
However, to include operators with modest shacks, you need to allow operation on modes A, B and/or J. A satellite operating on 24.0 GHz won't be of interest to the average ham. Not until the average ham has 24.0 GHz capable antennas, feedlines, amplifiers, transceivers, etc, in his shack.
Are you trying to say that if one can not stand in their yard with a HT they will not use it? If that is the case go for it. (that would be fine with me)
I would like to see A B J and A as well as 24GHz.
I had not problem using AO 40 as many many other did. I will 'never" support another FM only sat.
My reason for dropping out of AMSAT was no direction other then just that. I put together not one but two stations equipment with FT847. If your saying it's a money thing. You have got to pay to play. Everyone should know it's not or ever has been a poor man's hobby. You cant get a toy-auto to go 120 but my mustang will.
John, W0JAB
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Becker" w0jab@big-river.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 9:06 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: A0 40 replacement
I will 'never" support another FM only sat.
My reason for dropping out of AMSAT was no direction other then just that.
John, W0JAB
Hi John, W0JAB
I agree completely with you
73" de i8CVS Domenico
On 09/04/2013 03:06 PM, John Becker wrote:
On 9/4/2013 12:43 PM, Gus wrote:
Truly.
However, to include operators with modest shacks, you need to allow operation on modes A, B and/or J. A satellite operating on 24.0 GHz won't be of interest to the average ham. Not until the average ham has 24.0 GHz capable antennas, feedlines, amplifiers, transceivers, etc, in his shack.
Are you trying to say that if one can not stand in their yard with a HT they will not use it?
I hope that is not the case. I do think that the average ham station has an HF rig and a VHF/UHF rig in it. With feedlines and antennas to suit. Using an FM rig in CW mode, the average ham could operate A, B and J on CW with the equipment in hand. With antennas, feedlines, etc already in place, SSB capability comes at the cost of only a VHF/UHF all-mode rig, or perhaps only a transverter.
Once the bug has bit, they might begin to acquire gear for mode L, S, and the rest of the alphabet! But for the initial dipping of the toes into the satellite waters, it helps if the operator has all (or most of) the gear already to hand!
If your saying it's a money thing. You have got to pay to play. Everyone should know it's not or ever has been a poor man's hobby.
Starting with no gear, it's going to cost money, no matter what mode you try to operate. But to persuade the average op to give satellites a try, it can only help to tell him that it will cost him (little or) nothing.
You cant get a toy-auto to go 120 but my mustang will.
1964 BMC Mini, A-Series 850cc, big-valve head, sodium-filled exhaust valves, pocketed & line-bored block for road-race cam, twin SU's, 3-2-1 extractor, Cooper S ignition, duplex timing chain, co2 welded aluminum tappets, high-capacity oil pump & oil cooler... Back then my balls were bigger but my brain was smaller.
A HEO satellite with a 10 GHz downlink would be tons of fun. We've been using these along with surplus DSS dishes using a Funcube as an IF to create really cheap 10 GHz receivers that work well!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LNB-Single-0-1dB-Satellite-Universal-Edition-Full-HD...
Watch the wrap...
Mike
On 9/4/2013 1:43 PM, Gus wrote:
Truly.
However, to include operators with modest shacks, you need to allow operation on modes A, B and/or J. A satellite operating on 24.0 GHz won't be of interest to the average ham. Not until the average ham has 24.0 GHz capable antennas, feedlines, amplifiers, transceivers, etc, in his shack.
On 09/04/2013 11:31 AM, Bryce Salmi wrote:
Yea but increasing frequency helps with that. With directional antennas the satellite would need attitude control which would benefit greatly from miniaturization. For the most part, miniaturization would come from incorporating systems on chips. Most op amps and microcontrollers are much smaller than their packages so including those systems on a single die in a single package are capable of massive savings in space. This is what made smart phones even possible .
Gus 8p6sm@anjo.com wrote:
On 09/04/2013 02:26 AM, Brenton Salmi wrote: Let's put it in another possible context: Create an extremely dense and reliable LEO platform in cube-sat form that weigh's a fraction of AO-40's weight using today's high-density components/systems and create a reliable and feature rich HEO cubesat. The only problem with this, is that certain components can't be miniaturized. Example: Antennas. And HEO satellites need more sophisticated antennas. Pity the cube-sat idea didn't finish up with a ten INCH cube... -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM Barbados, the easternmost isle.
73, Mike, N1JEZ "A closed mouth gathers no feet"
I'm almost fifty one years old and I'm now convinced that we will not see another HEO in orbit in my lifetime...if ever. The economic environment to do it just doesn't exist anymore. AMSAT has as much as told everyone that by abandoning their efforts and concentrating on LEO cubesats. No one is going to come out and say that we absolutely will never have one, they like to keep that glimmer of hope alive but the writing is on the wall. No one wants to be wrong more than I do but I'd bet you P3-E never flies. 73, Michael, W4HIJ
On 9/3/2013 3:32 PM, John Becker wrote:
Anything new on a replacement. Have not see a thing myself.
John
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi Michael,
I would not say that AMSAT has abandoned HEO. Rather, launch opportunities that exist now are being utilized. Would you rather sit dormant and let all existing birds fail or re-enter while waiting for an HEO opportunity? And AMSAT is just learning to build cubesats. For AMSAT-NA, Fox-1 is a first. If we're going to fly HEO, we had better be good at building a reliable satellite in a cubesat (be it 1, 3, or 6U) format. The first HEO launch opportunity is not the time to figure that out! While HEO launch opportunities do not exist now, but that does not mean that AMSAT isn't pursuing them as Drew pointed out, nor that AMSAT would not build an HEO satellite when opportunities do come. In the meantime, we are making lemonade and preparing through practice.
Jerry N0JY
On 9/4/2013 4:25 PM, Michael wrote:
I'm almost fifty one years old and I'm now convinced that we will not see another HEO in orbit in my lifetime...if ever. The economic environment to do it just doesn't exist anymore. AMSAT has as much as told everyone that by abandoning their efforts and concentrating on LEO cubesats. No one is going to come out and say that we absolutely will never have one, they like to keep that glimmer of hope alive but the writing is on the wall. No one wants to be wrong more than I do but I'd bet you P3-E never flies. 73, Michael, W4HIJ
On 9/3/2013 3:32 PM, John Becker wrote:
Anything new on a replacement. Have not see a thing myself.
John
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
As long as AMSAT-NA needs to concentrate on 1U/3U/6U Cubesats for the immediatee future, I would really like to see the pursuit of linear transponders on them instead of single-channel FM repeaters. The way I see it, launch opportunities are so rare that we ought to fly the most capable equipment we can on those rare occasions when we can get a launch.
John Toscano W0JT Amsat-Na LM#2292
On Sep 4 2013, n0jy wrote:
Hi Michael,
I would not say that AMSAT has abandoned HEO. Rather, launch opportunities that exist now are being utilized. Would you rather sit dormant and let all existing birds fail or re-enter while waiting for an HEO opportunity? And AMSAT is just learning to build cubesats. For AMSAT-NA, Fox-1 is a first. If we're going to fly HEO, we had better be good at building a reliable satellite in a cubesat (be it 1, 3, or 6U) format. The first HEO launch opportunity is not the time to figure that out! While HEO launch opportunities do not exist now, but that does not mean that AMSAT isn't pursuing them as Drew pointed out, nor that AMSAT would not build an HEO satellite when opportunities do come. In the meantime, we are making lemonade and preparing through practice.
Jerry N0JY
On 9/4/2013 4:25 PM, Michael wrote:
I'm almost fifty one years old and I'm now convinced that we will not see another HEO in orbit in my lifetime...if ever. The economic environment to do it just doesn't exist anymore. AMSAT has as much as told everyone that by abandoning their efforts and concentrating on LEO cubesats. No one is going to come out and say that we absolutely will never have one, they like to keep that glimmer of hope alive but the writing is on the wall. No one wants to be wrong more than I do but I'd bet you P3-E never flies. 73, Michael, W4HIJ
On 9/3/2013 3:32 PM, John Becker wrote:
Anything new on a replacement. Have not see a thing myself.
John
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On 9/4/2013 6:53 PM, tosca005@umn.edu wrote:
As long as AMSAT-NA needs to concentrate on 1U/3U/6U Cubesats for the immediatee future, I would really like to see the pursuit of linear transponders on them instead of single-channel FM repeaters. The way I see it, launch opportunities are so rare that we ought to fly the most capable equipment we can on those rare occasions when we can get a launch.
We sure have linear transponders in the Fox pipeline. Fox-1 has a lot of engineering work for basics like spacecraft structure, IHU, power and so on, so "simpler is better" is the guiding phrase for RF. Later spacecraft in the Fox series will not need to repeat the basic spacecraft work, so we can focus engineering efforts on fancier RF payloads.
-Joe
The Fox Phase 2 satellites are supposed to carry software defined transponders like the one on ARISSat-1. They will be able to accommodate any mode we can dream of. Assuming all of the currently scheduled launches go well and what we have continues to function, we'll have several linear transponders in orbit (AO-7, FO-29, VO-52, FunCube-1, UKube-1, Delfi-N3xt). What I'd like to see is a satellite or two in a similar orbit as AO-7 or some of the RS satellites. The only possibility for DX contacts right now are on birds that are 39 (AO-7) and 18 (FO-29) years old.
A nice goal for AMSAT would be to put a linear transponder in an orbit that would realistically allow anyone in the United States with a decent station to work WAS. Theoretically it is possible for me to work Hawaii from here in DC on AO-7, but I certainly don't see that happening any time soon!
As far as "graduating" hams from the FM satellites to linear transponders, I think what's needed is some better resources that describe just how easy it can be. It doesn't have to cost very much at all. I know a lot of hams are on the FM satellites with FT-817s. To get on the linear satellites from that, all they need to add is something to receive VHF and/or UHF SSB (and if you have to choose, choose VHF since I believe all of the planned linear transponder satellites are Mode B). The 1990 ARRL Satellite Experimenters Handbook describes lots of ways to get on the satellites at low cost. My downlink receiver is an Icom IC-R10 that I got for about $200 on eBay. As far as tuning for Doppler, I heard someone on a pass last night when I was tuning around saying that computer control was "necessary" for the linear transponders. It does take some practice, but I know I get better at it every time I work a pass. For me, it's more trouble than it's worth since I have to operate portable and setting up my netbook is an extra step that I don't really need, Actually, tuning for Doppler is kind of fun!
73,
Paul Stoetzer, N8HM Washington, DC AMSAT-NA #38,913
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 6:53 PM, tosca005@umn.edu wrote:
As long as AMSAT-NA needs to concentrate on 1U/3U/6U Cubesats for the immediatee future, I would really like to see the pursuit of linear transponders on them instead of single-channel FM repeaters. The way I see it, launch opportunities are so rare that we ought to fly the most capable equipment we can on those rare occasions when we can get a launch.
John Toscano W0JT Amsat-Na LM#2292
On Sep 4 2013, n0jy wrote:
Hi Michael,
I would not say that AMSAT has abandoned HEO. Rather, launch opportunities that exist now are being utilized. Would you rather sit dormant and let all existing birds fail or re-enter while waiting for an HEO opportunity? And AMSAT is just learning to build cubesats. For AMSAT-NA, Fox-1 is a first. If we're going to fly HEO, we had better be good at building a reliable satellite in a cubesat (be it 1, 3, or 6U) format. The first HEO launch opportunity is not the time to figure that out! While HEO launch opportunities do not exist now, but that does not mean that AMSAT isn't pursuing them as Drew pointed out, nor that AMSAT would not build an HEO satellite when opportunities do come. In the meantime, we are making lemonade and preparing through practice.
Jerry N0JY
On 9/4/2013 4:25 PM, Michael wrote:
I'm almost fifty one years old and I'm now convinced that we will not see another HEO in orbit in my lifetime...if ever. The economic environment to do it just doesn't exist anymore. AMSAT has as much as told everyone that by abandoning their efforts and concentrating on LEO cubesats. No one is going to come out and say that we absolutely will never have one, they like to keep that glimmer of hope alive but the writing is on the wall. No one wants to be wrong more than I do but I'd bet you P3-E never flies. 73, Michael, W4HIJ
On 9/3/2013 3:32 PM, John Becker wrote:
Anything new on a replacement. Have not see a thing myself.
John
______________________________**_________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bbhttp://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
______________________________**_________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bbhttp://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
______________________________**_________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bbhttp://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
______________________________**_________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bbhttp://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi John,
The reason that Fox-1 is an FM transponder is because it was designed to be a quick replacement for the popular AO-51. The move to a linear transponder in our first cubesat will require time, and learning. Boy, if we could work together with other hams around the world to learn and design bigger and better things... but we can't. So we're going to have to learn it ourselves, and Fox-1 also provides a step in that direction. Take my word for it, building a reliable, long life cubesat is not as easy as it sounds. If I recall correctly though, the original idea was for a linear transponder and that is still the longer term goal for the Fox series. Fox 2, after learning from the successes or failures in Fox-1, will be that.
And I speak only from what I have learned from reading and being involved in AMSAT. I am not a spokesperson, and everything I am saying is public knowledge that was available to everyone here. This story has been told before...
Jerry
On 9/4/2013 5:53 PM, tosca005@umn.edu wrote:
As long as AMSAT-NA needs to concentrate on 1U/3U/6U Cubesats for the immediatee future, I would really like to see the pursuit of linear transponders on them instead of single-channel FM repeaters. The way I see it, launch opportunities are so rare that we ought to fly the most capable equipment we can on those rare occasions when we can get a launch.
John Toscano W0JT Amsat-Na LM#2292
On Sep 4 2013, n0jy wrote:
Hi Michael,
I would not say that AMSAT has abandoned HEO. Rather, launch opportunities that exist now are being utilized. Would you rather sit dormant and let all existing birds fail or re-enter while waiting for an HEO opportunity? And AMSAT is just learning to build cubesats. For AMSAT-NA, Fox-1 is a first. If we're going to fly HEO, we had better be good at building a reliable satellite in a cubesat (be it 1, 3, or 6U) format. The first HEO launch opportunity is not the time to figure that out! While HEO launch opportunities do not exist now, but that does not mean that AMSAT isn't pursuing them as Drew pointed out, nor that AMSAT would not build an HEO satellite when opportunities do come. In the meantime, we are making lemonade and preparing through practice.
Jerry N0JY
On 9/4/2013 4:25 PM, Michael wrote:
I'm almost fifty one years old and I'm now convinced that we will not see another HEO in orbit in my lifetime...if ever. The economic environment to do it just doesn't exist anymore. AMSAT has as much as told everyone that by abandoning their efforts and concentrating on LEO cubesats. No one is going to come out and say that we absolutely will never have one, they like to keep that glimmer of hope alive but the writing is on the wall. No one wants to be wrong more than I do but I'd bet you P3-E never flies. 73, Michael, W4HIJ
On 9/3/2013 3:32 PM, John Becker wrote:
Anything new on a replacement. Have not see a thing myself.
John
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I agree with John 100%!
73, Jim KQ6EA
On 09/04/2013 10:53 PM, tosca005@umn.edu wrote:
As long as AMSAT-NA needs to concentrate on 1U/3U/6U Cubesats for the immediatee future, I would really like to see the pursuit of linear transponders on them instead of single-channel FM repeaters. The way I see it, launch opportunities are so rare that we ought to fly the most capable equipment we can on those rare occasions when we can get a launch.
John Toscano W0JT Amsat-Na LM#2292
On Sep 4 2013, n0jy wrote:
Hi Michael,
I would not say that AMSAT has abandoned HEO. Rather, launch opportunities that exist now are being utilized. Would you rather sit dormant and let all existing birds fail or re-enter while waiting for an HEO opportunity? And AMSAT is just learning to build cubesats. For AMSAT-NA, Fox-1 is a first. If we're going to fly HEO, we had better be good at building a reliable satellite in a cubesat (be it 1, 3, or 6U) format. The first HEO launch opportunity is not the time to figure that out! While HEO launch opportunities do not exist now, but that does not mean that AMSAT isn't pursuing them as Drew pointed out, nor that AMSAT would not build an HEO satellite when opportunities do come. In the meantime, we are making lemonade and preparing through practice.
Jerry N0JY
On 9/4/2013 4:25 PM, Michael wrote:
I'm almost fifty one years old and I'm now convinced that we will not see another HEO in orbit in my lifetime...if ever. The economic environment to do it just doesn't exist anymore. AMSAT has as much as told everyone that by abandoning their efforts and concentrating on LEO cubesats. No one is going to come out and say that we absolutely will never have one, they like to keep that glimmer of hope alive but the writing is on the wall. No one wants to be wrong more than I do but I'd bet you P3-E never flies. 73, Michael, W4HIJ
On 9/3/2013 3:32 PM, John Becker wrote:
Anything new on a replacement. Have not see a thing myself.
John
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
John IT turns out that launch opportunities relativity plentiful what lacking is AMSAT vision and calibration with a university that has propulsion technology. See short video url http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DIxnO3CGrY
Thanks nick ARS K5QXJ EM30xa 30.1N 92.1W Office 337 593 8700 Cell 337 258 2527 Helping UL become a world Class Engineering and Educational School
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of tosca005@umn.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 5:53 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: A0 40 replacement
As long as AMSAT-NA needs to concentrate on 1U/3U/6U Cubesats for the immediatee future, I would really like to see the pursuit of linear transponders on them instead of single-channel FM repeaters. The way I see it, launch opportunities are so rare that we ought to fly the most capable equipment we can on those rare occasions when we can get a launch.
John Toscano W0JT Amsat-Na LM#2292
On Sep 4 2013, n0jy wrote:
Hi Michael,
I would not say that AMSAT has abandoned HEO. Rather, launch opportunities that exist now are being utilized. Would you rather sit dormant and let all existing birds fail or re-enter while waiting for an HEO opportunity? And AMSAT is just learning to build cubesats. For AMSAT-NA, Fox-1 is a first. If we're going to fly HEO, we had better be good at building a reliable satellite in a cubesat (be it 1, 3, or 6U) format. The first HEO launch opportunity is not the time to figure that out! While HEO launch opportunities do not exist now, but that does not mean that AMSAT isn't pursuing them as Drew pointed out, nor that AMSAT would not build an HEO satellite when opportunities do come. In the meantime, we are making lemonade and preparing through practice.
Jerry N0JY
On 9/4/2013 4:25 PM, Michael wrote:
I'm almost fifty one years old and I'm now convinced that we will not see another HEO in orbit in my lifetime...if ever. The economic environment to do it just doesn't exist anymore. AMSAT has as much as told everyone that by abandoning their efforts and concentrating on LEO cubesats. No one is going to come out and say that we absolutely will never have one, they like to keep that glimmer of hope alive but the writing is on the wall. No one wants to be wrong more than I do but I'd bet you P3-E never flies. 73, Michael, W4HIJ
On 9/3/2013 3:32 PM, John Becker wrote:
Anything new on a replacement. Have not see a thing myself.
John
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Nick,
Vision is good, but clear vision which tempers hope with reality is essential.
73s,
Alan WA4SCA
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Nick Pugh K5QXJ Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 4:10 AM To: tosca005@umn.edu; amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: A0 40 replacement
John IT turns out that launch opportunities relativity plentiful what lacking is AMSAT vision and calibration with a university that has propulsion technology. See short video url http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DIxnO3CGrY
Thanks nick ARS K5QXJ EM30xa 30.1N 92.1W Office 337 593 8700 Cell 337 258 2527 Helping UL become a world Class Engineering and Educational School
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of tosca005@umn.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 5:53 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: A0 40 replacement
As long as AMSAT-NA needs to concentrate on 1U/3U/6U Cubesats for the immediatee future, I would really like to see the pursuit of linear transponders on them instead of single-channel FM repeaters. The way I see it, launch opportunities are so rare that we ought to fly the most capable equipment we can on those rare occasions when we can get a launch.
John Toscano W0JT Amsat-Na LM#2292
On Sep 4 2013, n0jy wrote:
Hi Michael,
I would not say that AMSAT has abandoned HEO. Rather, launch opportunities that exist now are being utilized. Would you rather sit dormant and let all existing birds fail or re-enter while waiting for an HEO opportunity? And AMSAT is just learning to build cubesats. For AMSAT-NA, Fox-1 is a first. If we're going to fly HEO, we had better be good at building a reliable satellite in a cubesat (be it 1, 3, or 6U) format. The first HEO launch opportunity is not the time to figure that out! While HEO launch opportunities do not exist now, but that does not mean that AMSAT isn't pursuing them as Drew pointed out, nor that AMSAT would not build an HEO satellite when opportunities do come. In the meantime, we are making lemonade and preparing through practice.
Jerry N0JY
On 9/4/2013 4:25 PM, Michael wrote:
I'm almost fifty one years old and I'm now convinced that we will not see another HEO in orbit in my lifetime...if ever. The economic environment to do it just doesn't exist anymore. AMSAT has as much as told everyone that by abandoning their efforts and concentrating on LEO cubesats. No one is going to come out and say that we absolutely will never have one, they like to keep that glimmer of hope alive but the writing is on the wall. No one wants to be wrong more than I do but I'd bet you P3-E never flies. 73, Michael, W4HIJ
On 9/3/2013 3:32 PM, John Becker wrote:
Anything new on a replacement. Have not see a thing myself.
John
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I don't fault AMSAT one bit for building LEO cubesats. They are facing the reality of no HEO launches and there's nothing wrong with that. We have to have something up there or this whole branch of the hobby will die. I'm a bit disappointed that they chose to make Fox-1 yet another flying FM repeater and not a linear bird but that's beside the point of this discussion. I just don't think HEO launches are EVER going to be available again and I think telling people "well maybe someday" is just false hope. 73, Michael, W4HIJ
On 9/4/2013 6:09 PM, n0jy wrote:
Hi Michael,
I would not say that AMSAT has abandoned HEO. Rather, launch opportunities that exist now are being utilized. Would you rather sit dormant and let all existing birds fail or re-enter while waiting for an HEO opportunity? And AMSAT is just learning to build cubesats. For AMSAT-NA, Fox-1 is a first. If we're going to fly HEO, we had better be good at building a reliable satellite in a cubesat (be it 1, 3, or 6U) format. The first HEO launch opportunity is not the time to figure that out! While HEO launch opportunities do not exist now, but that does not mean that AMSAT isn't pursuing them as Drew pointed out, nor that AMSAT would not build an HEO satellite when opportunities do come. In the meantime, we are making lemonade and preparing through practice.
Jerry N0JY
On 9/4/2013 4:25 PM, Michael wrote:
I'm almost fifty one years old and I'm now convinced that we will not see another HEO in orbit in my lifetime...if ever. The economic environment to do it just doesn't exist anymore. AMSAT has as much as told everyone that by abandoning their efforts and concentrating on LEO cubesats. No one is going to come out and say that we absolutely will never have one, they like to keep that glimmer of hope alive but the writing is on the wall. No one wants to be wrong more than I do but I'd bet you P3-E never flies. 73, Michael, W4HIJ
On 9/3/2013 3:32 PM, John Becker wrote:
Anything new on a replacement. Have not see a thing myself.
John
I think we should try to build LEO's with both kinds of transponders on board. The FM birds are great for getting newbies interested in the sats and with a little encouragement from the "old hats" they'll want to upgrade their equipment to work the more challenging Linear birds. That serves 2 purposes: 1. it gets more hams in general involved with the sats, and 2. It gets more hams equipped and able to work the linear birds. That will mean a larger base of hams that will contribute to projects and push for HEO birds.
Also, I wouldn't discount the commercial launch operators just yet. They are at the beginning of the curve when it comes to regular launch activities. As they get further down the road, the costs will scale back significantly. AMSAT-NA is a non-profit is it not? I can see a day in the future when we could conceivably get a launch opportunity for significantly less cost because of the non-profit status of AMSAT. Assuming the tax breaks involved don't get slammed by this or a future administration, this could position AMSAT for all kinds of future opportunities.
It's a waiting game at this point. Lot's of things could radically change in the very near future, but that's no reason to sit around twiddling our thumbs moaning about the "good ole days" of AO-40. Push forward or push up daisies! It's our choice!
Jeff Moore -- KE7ACY
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 4:26 PM, Michael Mat_62@charter.net wrote:
I don't fault AMSAT one bit for building LEO cubesats. They are facing the
reality of no HEO launches and there's nothing wrong with that. We have to have something up there or this whole branch of the hobby will die. I'm a bit disappointed that they chose to make Fox-1 yet another flying FM repeater and not a linear bird but that's beside the point of this discussion. I just don't think HEO launches are EVER going to be available again and I think telling people "well maybe someday" is just false hope. 73, Michael, W4HIJ
I would not say that AMSAT has abandoned HEO. Rather, launch opportunities that exist now are being utilized. Would you rather sit dormant and let all existing birds fail or re-enter while waiting for an HEO opportunity? And AMSAT is just learning to build cubesats. For AMSAT-NA, Fox-1 is a first. If we're going to fly HEO, we had better be good at building a reliable satellite in a cubesat (be it 1, 3, or 6U) format. The first HEO launch opportunity is not the time to figure that out! While HEO launch opportunities do not exist now, but that does not mean that AMSAT isn't pursuing them as Drew pointed out, nor that AMSAT would not build an HEO satellite when opportunities do come. In the meantime, we are making lemonade and preparing through practice.
I cannot agree with this more. The reality is that LEO launch opportunities exist right now for an affordable price that AMSAT can pay (free to ~$150K) for satellites that are 1U cubesats. Any larger and it becomes much more expensive. AMSAT could potentially pull of a HEO launch if a 3U or so cubesat but I would imagine a decently sized fundraising campaign would be needed to approach that. Anything bigger than cubesats is likely out of the range of an organization such as AMSAT for a while (Unless reusable launch vehicles becomes a reality https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t15vP1PyoA).
There's a silver lining that people are neglecting (and those of us volunteering for AMSAT should probably do a better job publicizing this...). This silver lining is that without necessity, technology would never move forward. We are now forced to build LEO cubesats if we want to fly anything soon. That's a fact of life. By developing a reliable cubesat that is technology dense with smaller components and systems on a chip and placing it into LEO we obtain a flight heritage and incremental improvements with design. This also gives volunteers/engineers the experience with the satellite design. *There is merit in attempting to pack all the technology that is found on a traditional HEO bird into a small cubesat*. I mean seriously, we have smartphones nowadays that are faster than supercomputers were just several decades ago.
When that HEO opportunity comes up.* A proven LEO satellite with flight heritage will be much more reliable and economical to upgrade for the task*. It is for this reason that the path AMSAT-NA is currently embarking on is a very smart one for the current aerospace industry. Any Fox satellite designed and operated for it's 5+ year mission will give a huge leap of flight heritage to the design, especially in regards to radiation and environmental concerns. A HEO satellite will need to be extremely robust, more so than LEO as it will experience more radiation.
So LEO satellites are fun to most of us but they do offer an extremely limited usable pass,even at best (especially FM). However, there are many subsystems on an FM LEO that would be very similar to a Linear Transponder HEO satellite.* You still need a computer (IHU), you still need a solar converter (MPPT), you still need to support any experiments (cameras, sensors, etc). So, by having a reliable and flight proven LEO family of satellites, you just set yourself up for a HEO mission with limited redesign.*
This also plays into the whole role of launch providers. Just because you can afford a launch doesn't mean you will get it. Let's say AMSAT obtained a ride to GTO on the next Direct TV satellite to launch. Direct TV is the primary payload and any secondary payloads MUST prove that they will not in any way jeapordize the primary payload. If AMSAT was unable to prove that its satellite will not affect the primary payload, AMSAT would likely not get to fly.
Anyways, these are my thoughts on the issue. I'll toy around with the idea of getting some better material for the AMSAT-NA website to explain some of the difficulties AMSAT faces. There really is a need for a better explanation so we can avoid consistently explaining similar responses to similar questions.
Enjoy!
Bryce KB1LQC
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:09 PM, n0jy n0jy@n0jy.org wrote:
Hi Michael,
I would not say that AMSAT has abandoned HEO. Rather, launch opportunities that exist now are being utilized. Would you rather sit dormant and let all existing birds fail or re-enter while waiting for an HEO opportunity? And AMSAT is just learning to build cubesats. For AMSAT-NA, Fox-1 is a first. If we're going to fly HEO, we had better be good at building a reliable satellite in a cubesat (be it 1, 3, or 6U) format. The first HEO launch opportunity is not the time to figure that out! While HEO launch opportunities do not exist now, but that does not mean that AMSAT isn't pursuing them as Drew pointed out, nor that AMSAT would not build an HEO satellite when opportunities do come. In the meantime, we are making lemonade and preparing through practice.
Jerry N0JY
On 9/4/2013 4:25 PM, Michael wrote:
I'm almost fifty one years old and I'm now convinced that we will not see another HEO in orbit in my lifetime...if ever. The economic environment to do it just doesn't exist anymore. AMSAT has as much as told everyone that by abandoning their efforts and concentrating on LEO cubesats. No one is going to come out and say that we absolutely will never have one, they like to keep that glimmer of hope alive but the writing is on the wall. No one wants to be wrong more than I do but I'd bet you P3-E never flies. 73, Michael, W4HIJ
On 9/3/2013 3:32 PM, John Becker wrote:
Anything new on a replacement. Have not see a thing myself.
John
______________________________**_________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bbhttp://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
______________________________**_________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bbhttp://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
______________________________**_________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bbhttp://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
As I see it, AMSAT has two things that need to be publicized to the ham community:
1. Antennas are small. More and more hams face antenna restrictions and many seem to drop out rather than adapt. A decent LEO V/U antenna doesn't need to be any bigger than a TV yagi. It would be pretty easy to disguise a LEO V/U antenna as a TV yagi. A decent L/S antenna system for a future HEO could be nearly as unobtrusive as a DTV dish.
As I've stated before, my current LEO setup is completely portable. I walk outside, work a pass of AO-7, VO-52, FO-29, or SO-50 with the radios and accessories in a small bag carried around my neck and the Arrow antenna in my hand, and walk back inside when the pass is over. I get a lot of weird looks, but it works, and it's completely antenna-restriction proof.
2. The next two solar cycles are predicted to be pretty bad. That's great for AMSAT! Solar flares and CMEs aren't good for satellites anyway and we don't need sunspots to work through them. 80 and 160 will be pretty good and we should have another MF and LF band soon, but see item 1 about the problem with that!
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 7:33 PM, Bryce Salmi bstguitarist@gmail.com wrote:
I would not say that AMSAT has abandoned HEO. Rather, launch opportunities that exist now are being utilized. Would you rather sit dormant and let all existing birds fail or re-enter while waiting for an HEO opportunity? And AMSAT is just learning to build cubesats. For AMSAT-NA, Fox-1 is a first. If we're going to fly HEO, we had better be good at building a reliable satellite in a cubesat (be it 1, 3, or 6U) format. The first
HEO
launch opportunity is not the time to figure that out! While HEO launch opportunities do not exist now, but that does not mean that AMSAT isn't pursuing them as Drew pointed out, nor that AMSAT would not build an HEO satellite when opportunities do come. In the meantime,
we
are making lemonade and preparing through practice.
I cannot agree with this more. The reality is that LEO launch opportunities exist right now for an affordable price that AMSAT can pay (free to ~$150K) for satellites that are 1U cubesats. Any larger and it becomes much more expensive. AMSAT could potentially pull of a HEO launch if a 3U or so cubesat but I would imagine a decently sized fundraising campaign would be needed to approach that. Anything bigger than cubesats is likely out of the range of an organization such as AMSAT for a while (Unless reusable launch vehicles becomes a reality https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t15vP1PyoA).
There's a silver lining that people are neglecting (and those of us volunteering for AMSAT should probably do a better job publicizing this...). This silver lining is that without necessity, technology would never move forward. We are now forced to build LEO cubesats if we want to fly anything soon. That's a fact of life. By developing a reliable cubesat that is technology dense with smaller components and systems on a chip and placing it into LEO we obtain a flight heritage and incremental improvements with design. This also gives volunteers/engineers the experience with the satellite design. *There is merit in attempting to pack all the technology that is found on a traditional HEO bird into a small cubesat*. I mean seriously, we have smartphones nowadays that are faster than supercomputers were just several decades ago.
When that HEO opportunity comes up.* A proven LEO satellite with flight heritage will be much more reliable and economical to upgrade for the task*. It is for this reason that the path AMSAT-NA is currently embarking on is a very smart one for the current aerospace industry. Any Fox satellite designed and operated for it's 5+ year mission will give a huge leap of flight heritage to the design, especially in regards to radiation and environmental concerns. A HEO satellite will need to be extremely robust, more so than LEO as it will experience more radiation.
So LEO satellites are fun to most of us but they do offer an extremely limited usable pass,even at best (especially FM). However, there are many subsystems on an FM LEO that would be very similar to a Linear Transponder HEO satellite.* You still need a computer (IHU), you still need a solar converter (MPPT), you still need to support any experiments (cameras, sensors, etc). So, by having a reliable and flight proven LEO family of satellites, you just set yourself up for a HEO mission with limited redesign.*
This also plays into the whole role of launch providers. Just because you can afford a launch doesn't mean you will get it. Let's say AMSAT obtained a ride to GTO on the next Direct TV satellite to launch. Direct TV is the primary payload and any secondary payloads MUST prove that they will not in any way jeapordize the primary payload. If AMSAT was unable to prove that its satellite will not affect the primary payload, AMSAT would likely not get to fly.
Anyways, these are my thoughts on the issue. I'll toy around with the idea of getting some better material for the AMSAT-NA website to explain some of the difficulties AMSAT faces. There really is a need for a better explanation so we can avoid consistently explaining similar responses to similar questions.
Enjoy!
Bryce KB1LQC
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:09 PM, n0jy n0jy@n0jy.org wrote:
Hi Michael,
I would not say that AMSAT has abandoned HEO. Rather, launch opportunities that exist now are being utilized. Would you rather sit dormant and let all existing birds fail or re-enter while waiting for an HEO opportunity? And AMSAT is just learning to build cubesats. For AMSAT-NA, Fox-1 is a first. If we're going to fly HEO, we had better be good at building a reliable satellite in a cubesat (be it 1, 3, or 6U) format. The first
HEO
launch opportunity is not the time to figure that out! While HEO launch opportunities do not exist now, but that does not mean that AMSAT isn't pursuing them as Drew pointed out, nor that AMSAT would not build an HEO satellite when opportunities do come. In the meantime,
we
are making lemonade and preparing through practice.
Jerry N0JY
On 9/4/2013 4:25 PM, Michael wrote:
I'm almost fifty one years old and I'm now convinced that we will not
see
another HEO in orbit in my lifetime...if ever. The economic
environment to
do it just doesn't exist anymore. AMSAT has as much as told everyone
that
by abandoning their efforts and concentrating on LEO cubesats. No one
is
going to come out and say that we absolutely will never have one, they
like
to keep that glimmer of hope alive but the writing is on the wall. No
one
wants to be wrong more than I do but I'd bet you P3-E never flies. 73, Michael, W4HIJ
On 9/3/2013 3:32 PM, John Becker wrote:
Anything new on a replacement. Have not see a thing myself.
John
______________________________**_________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the
author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bb<
http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb%3E
______________________________**_________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the
author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bb<
http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb%3E
______________________________**_________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/**listinfo/amsat-bb<
http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb%3E
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
regarding this latest AO-40 (sobsob) thread...If you do any satellite operation you should join AMSAT....if you join AMSAT you should contribute whatever additional you can afford, there are monthly plans available http://store.amsat.org/catalog/index.php?cPath=35&osCsid=f01nlhgn764rav8... . If it's all about the bottom line (money), make it available. If you don't like AMSAT or the direction it is taking, start your own or join the BOD and fix it. It is essential I/we trust those in charge. I keep my AO40 QSL cards handy and show them to visitors, and I tell them yes it'll happen again. 73 Bob W7LRD
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael" Mat_62@charter.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2013 2:25:08 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: A0 40 replacement
I'm almost fifty one years old and I'm now convinced that we will not see another HEO in orbit in my lifetime...if ever. The economic environment to do it just doesn't exist anymore. AMSAT has as much as told everyone that by abandoning their efforts and concentrating on LEO cubesats. No one is going to come out and say that we absolutely will never have one, they like to keep that glimmer of hope alive but the writing is on the wall. No one wants to be wrong more than I do but I'd bet you P3-E never flies. 73, Michael, W4HIJ
On 9/3/2013 3:32 PM, John Becker wrote:
Anything new on a replacement. Have not see a thing myself.
John
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
If you vote for Bryan for the AMSAT board he is committed to a HEO
nick
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Michael Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 4:25 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: A0 40 replacement
I'm almost fifty one years old and I'm now convinced that we will not see another HEO in orbit in my lifetime...if ever. The economic environment to do it just doesn't exist anymore. AMSAT has as much as told everyone that by abandoning their efforts and concentrating on LEO cubesats. No one is going to come out and say that we absolutely will never have one, they like to keep that glimmer of hope alive but the writing is on the wall. No one wants to be wrong more than I do but I'd bet you P3-E never flies. 73, Michael, W4HIJ
On 9/3/2013 3:32 PM, John Becker wrote:
Anything new on a replacement. Have not see a thing myself.
John
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
High complexity of a ""replacement for hypercomplex AO40"" is not the answer. A much simpler satellite is IMHO the way to go. It will take less time to design , build and test It will be tipping the scale at less weight. It will receive a much faster approval by whoever is willing to provide the launch It will make possible to reach the in orbit condition in much less time than what it will take to achieve orbiting by a satellite as complex as the AO40. The appearing in the scene of launch vehicles of several previously not existing "" actors "" , may even provide the possibility of a ""free ride"" in a new launch vehicle demonstration test. As I see it following a succesfull pattern of transponders configuration as it was implemented by the AO10 and AO13 designers may be a way to make the dream of a new , highly reliable and long living High Earth Orbit satellite really possible.
73 and DX Arnie Coro CO2KK satellite operator with the simplest possible station configuration that enjoyed very much RS10 another well worth imitating ham radio satellite
On 09/05/2013 04:55 AM, Nick Pugh K5QXJ wrote:
If you vote for Bryan for the AMSAT board he is committed to a HEO
nick
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Michael Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 4:25 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: A0 40 replacement
I'm almost fifty one years old and I'm now convinced that we will not see another HEO in orbit in my lifetime...if ever. The economic environment to do it just doesn't exist anymore. AMSAT has as much as told everyone that by abandoning their efforts and concentrating on LEO cubesats. No one is going to come out and say that we absolutely will never have one, they like to keep that glimmer of hope alive but the writing is on the wall. No one wants to be wrong more than I do but I'd bet you P3-E never flies. 73, Michael, W4HIJ
On 9/3/2013 3:32 PM, John Becker wrote:
Anything new on a replacement. Have not see a thing myself.
John
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On 9/3/13, B J va6bmj@gmail.com wrote:
On 9/3/13, Clint Bradford clintbrad4d@earthlink.net wrote:
... As long as we have these self proclaimed Satellite Instructors neglecting
the benefit of Full Duplex operation ...
One thing I've noticed a few times on the linear birds is how some stations operate as if they're still on HF. They sometimes call CQ continuously without giving another station a chance to answer.
Now, whenever I call CQ, I stop transmitting for several seconds. That way, if anyone wants to answer will have a chance without us talking over each other.
73s
Bernhard VA6BMJ @ DO33FL
<snip>
I should add that not all operators on HF are like that. Many are quite courteous but I've heard a number who won't let someone get a word in edgewise. Making a proper contact with them would be accidental.
73s
Bernhard VA6BMJ @ DO33FL
B J wrote:
On 9/3/13, Clint Bradfordclintbrad4d@earthlink.net wrote:
... As long as we have these self proclaimed Satellite Instructors neglecting
the benefit of Full Duplex operation ...
One thing I've noticed a few times on the linear birds is how some stations operate as if they're still on HF. They sometimes call CQ continuously without giving another station a chance to answer.
Now, whenever I call CQ, I stop transmitting for several seconds. That way, if anyone wants to answer will have a chance without us talking over each other.
73s
Bernhard VA6BMJ @ DO33FL
<snip>
Of course, on the Linear birds, IF you are running Full Duplex, you actually CAN talk over each other and still be understood. On AO-40 (so doppler tracking wasn't a big problem) I would often just click in the MOX button on my rig. If I don't say anything (and it's otherwise quiet in the shack), no RF goes out. When I talk, it transmits. Nice and natural.
But this only works with FDX, and only with SSB, and only if you have computer or physical (HEO) control of doppler. Oh, and be careful not to wake up Leila when you both talk at the same time too often... She considered it bad manners.
Greg KO6TH
participants (22)
-
Alan -
B J -
Bob- W7LRD -
Brenton Salmi -
Bryce Salmi -
Clint Bradford -
Greg D -
Gus -
i8cvs -
Jeff Moore -
Jim Jerzycke -
Joe Fitzgerald -
John Becker -
John Stephensen -
M5AKA -
Michael -
Mike Seguin -
n0jy -
Nick Pugh K5QXJ -
Paul Stoetzer -
Prof. Arnaldo Coro Antich -
tosca005＠umn.edu