I fully expect to receive incoming slings and arrows for my input, and I do understand for those who get their egos fed by leading/participating in the design process for AMSAT-NA won't like this idea, but hey who is AMSAT here to serve anyway?

Generally, the following conditions seem to exist at this time (please feel free to correct me if any of my observations are inaccurate):

1. We don't seem to be within a stones throw of getting Eagle off the ground 2. Engineering resources in disarray 3. No Lab 4. Most folks who participate really want to see a HEO up as soon as humanly possible 5. The cost to put an HEO into orbit seems to be prohibitive for any single organization to pull off without deep pocket sponsorship 6. AMSAT-DL Has an HEO that is nearing completion

Given the extent that these circumstances are close to reality, why on earth wouldn't we consider transferring the sum total of Eagle resources (with membership approval of course) to AMSAT-DL, for the purpose of completing PE3?

Next step would be to determine the exact the cost and a launch opportunity. Let the Ham Satellite Community know what those cost are and then raise the additional funds toward that single goal.

Following the final launch and commissioning of PE3, then move on to getting Eagle back on track.

I definitely could get behind that sort of concrete effort. What we have now seems to be a bit of a distant dream.

Regards, - Joe, K7ZT

----- Original Message ----- From: "John B. Stephensen" kd6ozh@comcast.net To: "Michael Tondee" mat_62@netcommander.com; "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 8:29 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA

What most HEO users never fully realized (including me) was that they were the recipients of charity. Now that launches are commercial operations, the AMSATs have to pay the same as everyone else and HEOs are vastly more expensive than LEOs. The energy requirements are much larger and you can't just use a surplus SS-18 as a launch vehicle.

73,

John KD6OZH

----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Tondee" mat_62@netcommander.com To: "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 22:34 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA

...

It's been going on since I got here a couple of years ago Jim. For sure, everyone is anxious to see an HEO launched but some people feel the need to get online and constantly whine about why we don't have one. I think there are a few folks on here that need to get a dictionary and look up the word "volunteer". People better start to realize that there are no guarantees. I would say that at the current rate of apparent progress that the AMSAT NA mission statement looks all wet. Prospects don't seem to be much better on P3E either. What good will it do to have a fully built satellite without the funds to launch it? I just try to enjoy what we've got up there and hope for the best in the future. In the end that's all we can really do isn't it? All the whining in the world and the backhanded comments about AO-51 and the other FM sats aren't going to get the HEO birds up there any faster. 73, Michael W4HIJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 4:27 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] AMSAT NA

...

I have been off the satellites for 25 years. I just spent a bunch of money for antennas and rotors to get back on. After listening to all of the belly aching I wonder if I should join AMSAT (again). Maybe I should try EME . . . . the moon will be there long after I am gone. I have listened on AO 7 and VO 52 to test my 2 mtr yagis. I should be QRV soon. Belly aching just looks bad even if it is warranted. I am not sure if it accomplishes much other than venting for the vanquished. Human nature ugh. Lighten up folks.

Jim W9VNE Cincinnati, Ohio em79

---

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The key is getting space on a launch vehicle, not completing some hardware that is a tiny fraction of the cost. It's interesting that people are complaining about an internal AMSAT-NA personnel issue, but aren't concerned that AMSAT-DL announced that they can't pay for the P3E launch.

I've managed several engineering groups in the computer industry and have had people call me up while I was eating Thankgiving dinner and resign. On Monday everything was resolved.

73,

John KD6OZH

----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Westbrook" k7zt@suddenlink.net To: "John B. Stephensen" kd6ozh@comcast.net; "Michael Tondee" mat_62@netcommander.com; "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 03:19 UTC Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA

I fully expect to receive incoming slings and arrows for my input, and I do understand for those who get their egos fed by leading/participating in the design process for AMSAT-NA won't like this idea, but hey who is AMSAT here to serve anyway?

Generally, the following conditions seem to exist at this time (please feel free to correct me if any of my observations are inaccurate):

1. We don't seem to be within a stones throw of getting Eagle off the

ground 2. Engineering resources in disarray 3. No Lab 4. Most folks who participate really want to see a HEO up as soon as humanly possible 5. The cost to put an HEO into orbit seems to be prohibitive for any single organization to pull off without deep pocket sponsorship 6. AMSAT-DL Has an HEO that is nearing completion

Given the extent that these circumstances are close to reality, why on earth wouldn't we consider transferring the sum total of Eagle resources (with membership approval of course) to AMSAT-DL, for the purpose of completing PE3?

Next step would be to determine the exact the cost and a launch opportunity. Let the Ham Satellite Community know what those cost are and then raise the additional funds toward that single goal.

Following the final launch and commissioning of PE3, then move on to getting Eagle back on track.

I definitely could get behind that sort of concrete effort. What we have now seems to be a bit of a distant dream.

Regards,

• Joe, K7ZT

----- Original Message ----- From: "John B. Stephensen" kd6ozh@comcast.net To: "Michael Tondee" mat_62@netcommander.com; "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 8:29 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA

...

What most HEO users never fully realized (including me) was that they were the recipients of charity. Now that launches are commercial operations, the AMSATs have to pay the same as everyone else and HEOs are vastly more expensive than LEOs. The energy requirements are much larger and you can't just use a surplus SS-18 as a launch vehicle.

73,

John KD6OZH

----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Tondee" mat_62@netcommander.com To: "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 22:34 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA

...

It's been going on since I got here a couple of years ago Jim. For sure, everyone is anxious to see an HEO launched but some people feel the need to get online and constantly whine about why we don't have one. I think there are a few folks on here that need to get a dictionary and look up the word "volunteer". People better start to realize that there are no guarantees. I would say that at the current rate of apparent progress that the AMSAT NA mission statement looks all wet. Prospects don't seem to be much better on P3E either. What good will it do to have a fully built satellite without the funds to launch it? I just try to enjoy what we've got up there and hope for the best in the future. In the end that's all we can really do isn't it? All the whining in the world and the backhanded comments about AO-51 and the other FM sats aren't going to get the HEO birds up there any faster. 73, Michael W4HIJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 4:27 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] AMSAT NA

...

I have been off the satellites for 25 years. I just spent a bunch of money for antennas and rotors to get back on. After listening to all of the belly aching I wonder if I should join AMSAT (again). Maybe I should try EME . . . . the moon will be there long after I am gone. I have listened on AO 7 and VO 52 to test my 2 mtr yagis. I should be QRV soon. Belly aching just looks bad even if it is warranted. I am not sure if it accomplishes much other than venting for the vanquished. Human nature ugh. Lighten up folks.

Jim W9VNE Cincinnati, Ohio em79

---

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Joe mentioned ...

I remember quite a surge of fund raising prior to getting AO40 launched

Hams around the world pretty much paid for AO-40 and its ride with private donations. Its great that everyone dug in and met the funding goal - thank you! I had fun for a short time on AO-40, getting a station nearly going near the end.

AO-40 seems to have been one of the last subsidized/discounted launch opportunities. Getting to orbit with the real price quotes we get in today's space-as-a-business-model, we seem to hear $6 Million with a straight face from the launching agency. A few things may be going on here:

1. The launch agency is telling us to go away knowing there is little likelihood of a bunch of hams coming back with $6 Million.

2. Amateur radio isn't making a good enough business case to fit into the space-as-a-business-model when we propose we're flying a radio for a bunch of guys to yack on. Oh, emergency? Well you see, if enough of the guys are available on the weekend we might help. School? Sure, if they have an antenna and some kids got their license.

I'd guess we need to fix #2 so we can go back with $6 Million to fix #1. It has been said several times: There is not much chance amateur radio operators will raise that $6 Million with bake sales, car washes, private wallets (wouldn't it be excellent to have a wallet like that!).

To fit into today's space business environment AMSAT needs to create a mission that excites potential funding sources. Emergency Management is excited by the possibility of many-hours or 24 hour access to a satellite supporting emergency communications. Schools are excited at the prospect of student access to space with perhaps hours-long access to an experiment on ISS with TDRSS-like functionality instead of a 10 minute QSO with an astronaut.

Once we've made a business-case for our mission and a funding/grant source has agreed we'll be on our way. Yes, deliver the promised mission ... and in the meantime we'll be keeping those transponders warmed up ... we get to yack but you can't say that in a grant request.

Those who wish to continue to have philosophical disagreements on the Eagle design concept and process are welcome to do so.

It's just my observation, but a lot of the philosophical discussion is trying to find a way to build a mission ... not just a satellite. The overall mission includes paying for the satellite we want to yack on.

-- 73 de JoAnne K9JKM k9jkm@amsat.org

Group: The conversation about what to do to expand AMSAT membership and how they and other volunteer groups (local and national) can become more relevant has touched a chord with me because the arguments being advanced here are the same concerns affecting every volunteer organization. It's impossible to see how luxury hobbies like ours can be sustained when in so many parts of our own country poverty is a daily issue. Entire portions of our society have gone asunder and the fabric of science has been rent by several influences, mostly but not only that inane cell phone conversations by children have replaced scientific curiosity as a civilization. Money that goes to feed folks competes with funds to educate the unwilling.

As in every group, a core cadre does the work, has the interest and provides the energy while the rest sometimes provide distraction and express frustration at the lack of progress. But the term volunteer implies non-funded. Expectations in a volunteer organization are goals with no financial plan to achieve them except donations.

We could probably debate that long and hard and exhaust ourselves getting nowhere and ending up with no solutions; maybe because solutions no longer exist where options outweigh responsibilities, obligations and interest. And then again maybe not, but in a society that has more opinions than resources things do seem to keep falling by the side.

Given that, I propose that AMSAT become energetically affiliated with and supportive of an ongoing satellite plan, the American Student Moon Orbiter (http://asmo.arc.nasa.gov/ ) (ASMO) program. We can work with our European bothers and get ourselves involved in the European counterpart, ESMO with ASMO thus making a real global effort. The idea being that resources would be more available if the audience is bigger. This type of program affiliation would strengthen the core of AMSAT and other like-minded groups, build or renew a relationship with colleges and the local ham/AMSAT club outreach programs (if any exist) and establish AMSAT as a vigorous participant in the satellite program.

I would ask that AMSAT governance look at this possibility and respond to the RFI (Request for Information). The RFI is out for comment and it is right up our alley. See: http://asmo.arc.nasa.gov/asmo_docs .

This could re-energize us, our hobby, our clubs and our people. We have everything they need and they have what we want.

Thanks. That's the end of my rant for today.

Dave Mynatt Program Director ======================== http://sciencecenter.no-ip.org SID ID: S-0258 APRS Tier II Server @ pueblo.aprs2.net:14501 LAT: 38'16.278" N LON: -104'40.537" W Alt: 4780ft DM78

----- Original Message ----- From: k7zt@suddenlink.net To: amsat-bb@amsat.org; "JoAnne Maenpaa" k9jkm@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 11:34 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA

JoAnne: For the most part, I agree with your analysis. But it's not like were in a space race with the USSR, what could possibly be wrong with making the HEO effort an international undertaking with maximum resources focused on a single goal. Based on your comments, PE3 dosen't stand a chance of getting off the ground unless the Europeans have some political leverage which they may have. Has anyone from AMSAT-NA asked them? Eagle is so complex and bogged down that I honestly don't see it going anywhere soon. The outlook for HEO is very grim, unless we pool resources (both financial and intellictual) set some milestones and manage to those.

Regards,

• Joe

---- JoAnne Maenpaa k9jkm@comcast.net wrote:

...

Joe mentioned ...

...

I remember quite a surge of fund raising prior to getting AO40 launched

Hams around the world pretty much paid for AO-40 and its ride with private donations. Its great that everyone dug in and met the funding goal - thank you! I had fun for a short time on AO-40, getting a station nearly going near the end.

AO-40 seems to have been one of the last subsidized/discounted launch opportunities. Getting to orbit with the real price quotes we get in today's space-as-a-business-model, we seem to hear $6 Million with a straight face from the launching agency. A few things may be going on here:

1. The launch agency is telling us to go away knowing there is little likelihood of a bunch of hams coming back with $6 Million.

2. Amateur radio isn't making a good enough business case to fit into the space-as-a-business-model when we propose we're flying a radio for a bunch of guys to yack on. Oh, emergency? Well you see, if enough of the guys are available on the weekend we might help. School? Sure, if they have an antenna and some kids got their license.

I'd guess we need to fix #2 so we can go back with $6 Million to fix #1. It has been said several times: There is not much chance amateur radio operators will raise that $6 Million with bake sales, car washes, private wallets (wouldn't it be excellent to have a wallet like that!).

To fit into today's space business environment AMSAT needs to create a mission that excites potential funding sources. Emergency Management is excited by the possibility of many-hours or 24 hour access to a satellite supporting emergency communications. Schools are excited at the prospect of student access to space with perhaps hours-long access to an experiment on ISS with TDRSS-like functionality instead of a 10 minute QSO with an astronaut.

Once we've made a business-case for our mission and a funding/grant source has agreed we'll be on our way. Yes, deliver the promised mission ... and in the meantime we'll be keeping those transponders warmed up ... we get to yack but you can't say that in a grant request.

...

Those who wish to continue to have philosophical disagreements on the Eagle design concept and process are welcome to do so.

It's just my observation, but a lot of the philosophical discussion is trying to find a way to build a mission ... not just a satellite. The overall mission includes paying for the satellite we want to yack on.

-- 73 de JoAnne K9JKM k9jkm@amsat.org

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At 12:34 PM -0500 7/16/08, k7zt@suddenlink.net wrote:

what could possibly be wrong with making the HEO effort an international undertaking with maximum resources focused on a single goal.

That's also known as "putting all your eggs in one basket". We (the worldwide AMSAT organizations) did that with AO-40, and that's a big part of the reason why it has been so long between HEO missions.

HEO missions take a long time to get ready, and they don't last forever even when they're successful. If you don't have one in the pipeline, there's going to be a long dry spell before you can launch. In order to keep the HEO missions flowing, it's necessary to have more than one project going at the same time, at different stages of development.

Eagle is so complex and bogged down that I honestly don't see it going anywhere soon.

As screwed up as our development organization is, engineering is NOT the bottleneck on Eagle. Simplifying the engineering task will not speed up Eagle. A launch is, and will be for the foreseeable future, the bottleneck on all HEO missions. The disarray you see is, in part, a result of the organization casting about desperately for a way to solve the launching (i.e., funding) problem.

Simplifying the engineering task could, however, easily cripple the capability of the mission to have a significant effect on amateur radio. Another weak-signal big-antenna SSB/CW transponder will not change the world. A highly optimized digital small-dish system that does an excellent job with high-quality voice and modest-rate data, on the other hand, just might. It's a challenge well worth pursuing.

Some people in AMSAT management think that a system like that might actually yield a solution to the launch problem, by impressing the US government with the potential utility of the system. I am skeptical, but I don't have a better idea.

The outlook for HEO is very grim, unless we pool resources (both financial and intellictual) set some milestones and manage to those.

The outlook is grim regardless of any resource pooling, unless we find a way to fund a launch. Make no mistake: pooling our paupers' financial resources won't fund a launch.

Managing to milestones is all well and good, once enough is known to set sensible milestones. We're not there yet on Eagle. Any milestones we wrote down now would be fantasy.

73 -Paul kb5mu@amsat.org

As I see it, Paul's statement is the bottom line when it comes to the future of HEO's. In my mind it's highly conceivable that P3E will be completed and ready to go, yet left languishing in storage somewhere while AMSAT-DL struggles to find a way to launch it. That's why I said the AMSAT NA vision statement seemed all wet . It's midway through 2008 and someone honestly thinks we can "deploy high earth orbit satellite systems that offer daily coverage by 2009 and continuous coverage by 2012" ??? Reality check folks! Even if you could engineer and build the birds overnight, it seems highly unlikely you would get them in orbit by then. I hope I'm wrong...I really do. Meantime, we'd better hope for more projects like Delfi C-3 and Kiwi-sat and maybe a resurrection of FO-29. Heck, as long as we are being as unrealistic as the vision statement, let's hope for a miraculous ressurection of AO-40 as well! 73, Michael W4HIJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Williamson" kb5mu@amsat.org To: k7zt@suddenlink.net Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 1:52 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA

As screwed up as our development organization is, engineering is NOT the bottleneck on Eagle. Simplifying the engineering task will not speed up Eagle. A launch is, and will be for the foreseeable future, the bottleneck on all HEO missions. The disarray you see is, in part, a result of the organization casting about desperately for a way to solve the launching (i.e., funding) problem. 73 -Paul kb5mu@amsat.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At this point, I don't see any way to determine which AMSAT group will be able to get a satellite into space first.

AMSAT-DL has been going with launching a complete satellite and trying to find some discounted space to put it in. However, there is no longer a hope of a discount. AMSAT-NA had the same problem but are trying to address it by purchasing space in another satellite. When building the complete satellite you have a much larger engineering program and more risk. Building transponders for inclusion within another satellite means less work and less risk but you have to accept the orbit provided by the host.

Its good that both approaches are being persued. The AMSAT-DL and AMSAT-NA organizations have good relations with each other and assist each other with money and volunteers. Hobbling one organization is likely to cut the chances of a near-term HEO by factor of 2.

73,

John KD6OZH

----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Westbrook" k7zt@suddenlink.net To: "John B. Stephensen" kd6ozh@comcast.net; "Michael Tondee" mat_62@netcommander.com; "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 05:47 UTC Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA

John: I suppose I should have been clearer, (tough crowd) I was including the Launch Cost. Which project do you think could realistically get of the ground first Eagle or PE3? This isn't about complaining, I'm simply suggesting a possible path to get an HEO operational ASAP.

I remember quite a surge of fund raising prior to getting AO40 launched, with concrete targets

My fundamental argument remains the same. Pool global resources, determine what the delta is and inform the community. Focus on a single project, get one HEO bird operational , starting with the satellite that is closest to completion. Those who wish to continue to have philosophical disagreements on the Eagle design concept and process are welcome to do so..

Regards,

• Joe K7ZT

----- Original Message ----- From: "John B. Stephensen" kd6ozh@comcast.net To: "Joe Westbrook" k7zt@suddenlink.net; "Michael Tondee" mat_62@netcommander.com; "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 4:48 AM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA

...

The key is getting space on a launch vehicle, not completing some hardware that is a tiny fraction of the cost. It's interesting that people are complaining about an internal AMSAT-NA personnel issue, but aren't concerned that AMSAT-DL announced that they can't pay for the P3E launch.

I've managed several engineering groups in the computer industry and have had people call me up while I was eating Thankgiving dinner and resign. On Monday everything was resolved.

73,

John KD6OZH

----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Westbrook" k7zt@suddenlink.net To: "John B. Stephensen" kd6ozh@comcast.net; "Michael Tondee" mat_62@netcommander.com; "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 03:19 UTC Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA

...

I fully expect to receive incoming slings and arrows for my input, and I do understand for those who get their egos fed by leading/participating in the design process for AMSAT-NA won't like this idea, but hey who is AMSAT here to serve anyway?

Generally, the following conditions seem to exist at this time (please feel free to correct me if any of my observations are inaccurate):

1. We don't seem to be within a stones throw of getting Eagle off the

ground 2. Engineering resources in disarray 3. No Lab 4. Most folks who participate really want to see a HEO up as soon as humanly possible 5. The cost to put an HEO into orbit seems to be prohibitive for any single organization to pull off without deep pocket sponsorship 6. AMSAT-DL Has an HEO that is nearing completion

Given the extent that these circumstances are close to reality, why on earth wouldn't we consider transferring the sum total of Eagle resources (with membership approval of course) to AMSAT-DL, for the purpose of completing PE3?

Next step would be to determine the exact the cost and a launch opportunity. Let the Ham Satellite Community know what those cost are and then raise the additional funds toward that single goal.

Following the final launch and commissioning of PE3, then move on to getting Eagle back on track.

I definitely could get behind that sort of concrete effort. What we have now seems to be a bit of a distant dream.

Regards,

• Joe, K7ZT

----- Original Message ----- From: "John B. Stephensen" kd6ozh@comcast.net To: "Michael Tondee" mat_62@netcommander.com; "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 8:29 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA

...

What most HEO users never fully realized (including me) was that they were the recipients of charity. Now that launches are commercial operations, the AMSATs have to pay the same as everyone else and HEOs are vastly more expensive than LEOs. The energy requirements are much larger and you can't just use a surplus SS-18 as a launch vehicle.

73,

John KD6OZH

----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Tondee" mat_62@netcommander.com To: "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 22:34 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA

...

It's been going on since I got here a couple of years ago Jim. For sure, everyone is anxious to see an HEO launched but some people feel the need to get online and constantly whine about why we don't have one. I think there are a few folks on here that need to get a dictionary and look up the word "volunteer". People better start to realize that there are no guarantees. I would say that at the current rate of apparent progress that the AMSAT NA mission statement looks all wet. Prospects don't seem to be much better on P3E either. What good will it do to have a fully built satellite without the funds to launch it? I just try to enjoy what we've got up there and hope for the best in the future. In the end that's all we can really do isn't it? All the whining in the world and the backhanded comments about AO-51 and the other FM sats aren't going to get the HEO birds up there any faster. 73, Michael W4HIJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Danehy" jdanehy@cinci.rr.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 4:27 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] AMSAT NA

...

I have been off the satellites for 25 years. I just spent a bunch of money for antennas and rotors to get back on. After listening to all of the belly aching I wonder if I should join AMSAT (again). Maybe I should try EME . . . . the moon will be there long after I am gone. I have listened on AO 7 and VO 52 to test my 2 mtr yagis. I should be QRV soon. Belly aching just looks bad even if it is warranted. I am not sure if it accomplishes much other than venting for the vanquished. Human nature ugh. Lighten up folks.

Jim W9VNE Cincinnati, Ohio em79

---

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Hi Luc,

You're assuming that there is enough money in the combination of all AMSAT organizations and that each AMSAT has an equal chance of getting a ride into orbit in all countries. Neither is true. The amateur satellite program needs external contributors to maintain the type of service that it gave in the past. There are also legal restrictions in the U.S. as to who can participate in a program of this type and be allowed to launch on any of the U.S. rockets -- commercial or government. I don't see the closed circles that you refer to as AMSAT-NA and AMSAT-DL are able to cooperate on projects like AO-40 and P3E.

The countries making their first steps into space are very useful for LEOs, but HEOs require an order of magnitude more energy per pound of transponder to be put into a stable orbit. The space shuttle is the most expensive launch vehicle for a HEO and you have to carry more mass in engine and fuel than on conventional launch vehicles. It was heavily influenced by cold war requirements so it was a flop commercially.

73,

John KD6OZH

----- Original Message ----- From: "Luc Leblanc" lucleblanc6@videotron.ca To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Cc: eu-amsat@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 03:24 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA

On 16 Jul 2008 at 1:29, John B. Stephensen wrote:

...

What most HEO users never fully realized (including me) was that they were the recipients of charity. Now that launches are commercial operations, the AMSATs have to pay the same as everyone else and HEOs are vastly more expensive than LEOs.

How i can repeat the same idea in a different way!

3 years ago i wrote "there is not enough money available in each AMSAT'S" i was speaking for an ONLY ONE international AMSAT to regroup all the available funds" Running after too many rabbit will only bring empty hands.

As the one repeater in each ham backyard syndrome era we are now facing the same trend. The volunteer era is also no more THE SOLUTION our club repeater group who was playing retuning rebuilding old commercial repeater on the ham bands and having to perform maintenance work on a monthly basis became tired to play again and again on the same used machine our volunteers where exhausted. THE NEW SOLUTION we buy a brand new motorola repeater (3000$ for a 40 members club) Two years now of peace and smooth operation our volunteers are now playing around SDR radio and DSTAR.

GUIDE FOR AMATEUR HEO SATELLITE LAUNCH.

1-Put the world-wide resources towards one goal one HEO at a time 2-Planned the funding A- How much money is needed for a launch B-Divide the amount by all the possible contributors C-Have al the AMSAT'S organizing their own funding in their own area. 3-If some money is missing we will all know why we cannot have a launch and this will end up the complaining 4-Working in closed circle under our national flags will only divided our resources if "Now that launches are commercial operations" we will have to govern us accordingly GO COMMERCIAL SELL D'ONT BEG Try to have managers and administrators who are familiar with the business world not those who rely on charity, or elitism fund raising club, or governmental grants.

5-When the business plan will be attached it is much more easy to seek out for major money contributor's. 6-Is this goes by having to put a Coke sign on the satellite body or having a CD with names of 5$ donors (look at the cube sats supporters) 7-Stopped attending hamfest and start to visit universities in promoting an HEO project how they can help? 8-Look for new countries who are now making their first steps in space India, China, Japan 9-The space shuttle is now at the end of his planned life is there any available space in their last flights to accommodate an HEO of 150KG! 10-If someone ask me if can managed to put 300 a year in a fund to have an HEO launch i think i will be able to save 82 cents per day per year but they will have to SELL me the affair...a sound and a well attached project. 11- If it is possible to reach 6000 individuals 1.8 millions will be available per year and in no more than 3 years more than 5 millions will be in this fund.

The killing question!

Is the actual leadership is able to drive such program i think not AND IT IS THE MAIN PROBLEM a huge structural change is needed as the ideas of the base are not listen. Only the leaders ideas are promoted even if they are no more up to date as they are getting trailing support by few foul mouth it is a vicious circle who fortunately start to break up...

AMSAT-NA is facing an obscure future. The last act of mutiny is only the tip of the iceberg even if the captain want's to play it down! We are could be ugly but not stupid...

"-"

Luc Leblanc VE2DWE Skype VE2DWE www.qsl.net/ve2dwe WAC BASIC CW PHONE SATELLITE

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I don't think that pooling donations from all hams worlwide for one launch will solve the problem. That was the method used to launch all previous HEOs and is now breaking down because the hidden donation from EU governments is no longer there.

73,

John KD6OZH

----- Original Message ----- From: "Luc Leblanc" lucleblanc6@videotron.ca To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 10:32 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT NA

On 16 Jul 2008 at 22:40, John B. Stephensen wrote:

...

Hi Luc,

You're assuming that there is enough money in the combination of all AMSAT organizations and that each AMSAT has an equal chance of getting a ride into orbit in all countries.

No You get me wrong here if we regroup all the funding sources in one international satellite launching fund where each AMSAT'S group will be in charge of promoting their own country funding structure towards one goal it is possible to accumulate enough money for a launch. Not a launch per country but all the country for a launch eg: P3E