Re: [amsat-bb] Financial arguments about full duplex
The financial argument is a weak one at best. A WA5VJB Cheap yagi is about 10 dollars of materials (you can skip the diplexer with two radios), and I have recently seen and purchased older full sized 2m HTs and UHF analog only scanners for as cheap as 5 dollars at hamfests. Add a $30 Baofeng and you have a satellite setup for next to nothing.
Don't want to build or can't? The price difference between an Arrow antenna with a diplexer, and one without is about $60, or the cost of TWO cheap HTs. Use the extra $30 to buy some good cables.
I certainly don't mind if those getting started try half-duplex at first, and it has it's place in some situations. I even wrote an article 10 years ago about half duplex ops with the FT-817 on FO-29, which I plan to update soon, but the linear sats are different animals, with different challenges.
Once you try full duplex and realize the benefits of being able to hear if you are causing or being QRM, and being able to twist the antenna during transmit to get a better uplink signal, you won't want to go back to the old way.
73, Drew KO4MA
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Conner via AMSAT-BB [email protected] Sent: Jun 28, 2016 10:42 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] FW: [FWD: RE: Southern CA Satellite Presentations]
Then what I am hearing, "AS A NEWBIE" is that I am not welcome on the Sats because I do not have the financial resources to invest in all the equipment needed to run full duplex. It is more than two cheap Chinese radios, it also involves an antenna, which at the very least it is almost double the cost of the two Chinese radios.
Money that some of us have a hard time pulling together.
I have a hard time with all the purest, my way or the highway mentality I am hearing.
Just my 2 cents
Jerry W4JWC
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Southern CA Satellite Presentations From: Michael <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Date: Mon, June 27, 2016 9:04 pm To: [email protected] mailto:[email protected]
I could care less whether you have ever uttered it or not in one of your live presentations. It is printed in black and white in your handout. You just quoted it yourself. The minute you typed that phrase and began giving out handouts or telling people to print it out you became guilty of spreading ignorance as far as satellite operation is concerned. You are leading newbie sat operators down a path they should not be on. If one does not have the means to hear their own signal coming back from the bird so as to insure they are "making it there" then they should not be on the satellites. End of story. Michael, W4HIJ On 6/26/2016 11:37 PM, Clint Bradford wrote:
... you would quit telling people that full duplex is "not mandatory" for working sats.
You've never attended one of my sat sessions. I have never uttered the sentence to groups, "It is not mandatory to work full-duplex. - PERIOD." My standard mantra for the easy FM birds is all over the place:
"Ideally, we should be working the satellites in full duplex mode, where we can simultaneously listen to the downlink as we are transmitting. Although this method is preferred, it is not mandatory: Carefully monitor the downlink, and wait for a break in the conversations to announce yourself."
People you might be hearing stepping on others are not following those instructions.
And all my audiences are very graphically shown and told the reasons why working full- duplex is preferable.
I didn't work full-duplex when speaking with Commander Wiseman - who was aboard the ISS at the time during Field Day 2014.
If you haven't already given a presentation to your club on working the easy birds, I am available. Just send me an email message.
Clint Bradford K6LCS (909) 999-SATS _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected] mailto:[email protected] . AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected] mailto:[email protected] . AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
That is what I have done, built a cheap antenna. I have a Chinese radio and I have made contacts on SO-50, half duplex. I DO NOT get on the linear birds because primary I do not have the means to run 2M/70CM SSB. I can also understand that it would near impossible to effectively make a contact But newbies can/should be given guidance in the form of Elmers. Not being told they are not welcome if they don't have the equipment others have. By the way check the prices an arrow antenna that will give someone the best chance to get into AO-85 with a Cheap Chinese radio is about $150.00. I love VHF/UHF but I can't do much more than be a spectator at this point due to the equipment required. I will get there eventually.
I am just trying to point out that not everyone has the ability and may never have the ability work the satellites with the gear that others have. I would love to have a way to do so but for now it is not in the cards in my household. I am OK with that.
So when the arrows start flying try not to hit the people that you should be trying to bring in the fold to help, in any way they can, put more satellites in orbit for us all to enjoy. Just my viewpoint from down here. 73 Jerry W4JWC
-----Original Message----- From: Andrew Glasbrenner [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 11:03 AM To: Jerry Conner [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: Financial arguments about full duplex
The financial argument is a weak one at best. A WA5VJB Cheap yagi is about 10 dollars of materials (you can skip the diplexer with two radios), and I have recently seen and purchased older full sized 2m HTs and UHF analog only scanners for as cheap as 5 dollars at hamfests. Add a $30 Baofeng and you have a satellite setup for next to nothing.
Don't want to build or can't? The price difference between an Arrow antenna with a diplexer, and one without is about $60, or the cost of TWO cheap HTs. Use the extra $30 to buy some good cables.
I certainly don't mind if those getting started try half-duplex at first, and it has it's place in some situations. I even wrote an article 10 years ago about half duplex ops with the FT-817 on FO-29, which I plan to update soon, but the linear sats are different animals, with different challenges.
Once you try full duplex and realize the benefits of being able to hear if you are causing or being QRM, and being able to twist the antenna during transmit to get a better uplink signal, you won't want to go back to the old way.
73, Drew KO4MA
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Conner via AMSAT-BB [email protected] Sent: Jun 28, 2016 10:42 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] FW: [FWD: RE: Southern CA Satellite Presentations]
Then what I am hearing, "AS A NEWBIE" is that I am not welcome on the Sats because I do not have the financial resources to invest in all the equipment needed to run full duplex. It is more than two cheap Chinese radios, it also involves an antenna, which at the very least it is almost double the cost of the two Chinese radios.
Money that some of us have a hard time pulling together.
I have a hard time with all the purest, my way or the highway mentality I am hearing.
Just my 2 cents
Jerry W4JWC
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Southern CA Satellite Presentations From: Michael <[email protected] mailto:[email protected] > Date: Mon, June 27, 2016 9:04 pm To: [email protected] mailto:[email protected]
I could care less whether you have ever uttered it or not in one of your live presentations. It is printed in black and white in your handout. You just quoted it yourself. The minute you typed that phrase and began giving out handouts or telling people to print it out you became guilty of spreading ignorance as far as satellite operation is concerned. You are leading newbie sat operators down a path they should not be on. If one does not have the means to hear their own signal coming back from the bird so as to insure they are "making it there" then they should not be on the satellites. End of story. Michael, W4HIJ On 6/26/2016 11:37 PM, Clint Bradford wrote:
... you would quit telling people that full duplex is "not mandatory" for working sats.
You've never attended one of my sat sessions. I have never uttered the sentence to groups, "It is not mandatory to work full-duplex. - PERIOD." My standard mantra for the easy FM birds is all over the place:
"Ideally, we should be working the satellites in full duplex mode, where we can simultaneously listen to the downlink as we are transmitting. Although this method is preferred, it is not mandatory: Carefully monitor the downlink, and wait for a break in the conversations to announce yourself."
People you might be hearing stepping on others are not following those instructions.
And all my audiences are very graphically shown and told the reasons why working full- duplex is preferable.
I didn't work full-duplex when speaking with Commander Wiseman - who was aboard the ISS at the time during Field Day 2014.
If you haven't already given a presentation to your club on working the easy birds, I am available. Just send me an email message.
Clint Bradford K6LCS (909) 999-SATS _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected] mailto:[email protected] . AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected] mailto:[email protected] . AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Jerry Conner via AMSAT-BB [email protected] wrote:
That is what I have done, built a cheap antenna. I have a Chinese radio and I have made contacts on SO-50, half duplex.
Can't possibly be true because full duplex is a TECHNICAL REQUIREMENT FOR SUCCESSFUL OPERATION. If you don't meet the requirements, you can't possibly be successful.
You are not alone: my own non-full duplex contacts were also not successful because of my failure to use a second receiver. I've petitioned ARRL to remove my QSLs from LOTW and have disassembled and buried my diplexer-equipped antenna because of this.
The shame of it all.
Hi Jerry!
I had written about using certain Chinese-made dual-band HTs to work AO-85 full-duplex a few months ago on this list, and an article based on those posts appeared in a recent AMSAT Journal. But that is not the only way, or even the cheapest way, to get on AO-85 (or other U/V FM satellites) full-duplex. I, like many others reading this list, have worked stations using two Baofeng HTs and a homebrew 2m/70cm Yagi like the WA5VJB design. Two Baofengs should be in the $60 to $70 range, and a homebrew Yagi a few dollars more in parts. Basically, for less than $100, a ham can have a station capable of full-duplex operation for FM satellites. If someone already has an HT, then the costs for a second radio and parts for a 2m/70cm homebrew Yagi become more like $40 or $50.
As I mentioned in other recent posts on here, I worked an FM satellite pass during Field Day half-duplex, on LilacSat-2 (like SO-50, using a 2m uplink and 70cm downlink). It can be done, but many of us hear the complaints from those who have tried the half-duplex approach unsuccessfully. If anything, the advice about working FM satellite full-duplex is an attempt to set expectations for success on these satellites. Yes, half-duplex can work, but full-duplex works better.
As for the linear transponders, that will take different equipment where there really isn't the same inexpensive option as we have with the Chinese-made HTs for FM satellites. There are options to hold down the costs for equipping your station to work these satellites. Using a pair of all-mode HF/VHF/UHF transceivers, or one of those transceivers with a software-defined receiver, are a couple of examples of this. But it can be done.
Good luck, and 73!
Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK http://www.wd9ewk.net/ Twitter: @WD9EWK
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Jerry Conner via AMSAT-BB < [email protected]> wrote:
That is what I have done, built a cheap antenna. I have a Chinese radio and I have made contacts on SO-50, half duplex. I DO NOT get on the linear birds because primary I do not have the means to run 2M/70CM SSB. I can also understand that it would near impossible to effectively make a contact But newbies can/should be given guidance in the form of Elmers. Not being told they are not welcome if they don't have the equipment others have. By the way check the prices an arrow antenna that will give someone the best chance to get into AO-85 with a Cheap Chinese radio is about $150.00. I love VHF/UHF but I can't do much more than be a spectator at this point due to the equipment required. I will get there eventually.
I am just trying to point out that not everyone has the ability and may never have the ability work the satellites with the gear that others have. I would love to have a way to do so but for now it is not in the cards in my household. I am OK with that.
So when the arrows start flying try not to hit the people that you should be trying to bring in the fold to help, in any way they can, put more satellites in orbit for us all to enjoy. Just my viewpoint from down here. 73 Jerry W4JWC
participants (4)
-
Andrew Glasbrenner -
Jerry Conner -
Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) -
Peter Laws