The problem is that the government is no longer paying for those expenses as they did in the past. The $8,000,000 is the incremental cost not the cost of the entire launch.
73,
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob" pabutusa@gmail.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 15:54 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3
I don't think we'll ever be in a position to "buy" a launch the most we will ever be able to do is hope to piggy-back with a paying customer and possibly contribute to "expenses."
Maybe having a payload "on the shelf ready" isn't such a bad plan .... if a "short window of opportunity" were to open up ... and we had nothing ready that would be an opportunity lost. Maybe we should have various payloads sitting on the shelf (cube, micro, mini, P3) just in case.
Piggy-back rides is how Amateur Radio Satellites got their start .... it's the only way to continue.
--> Rob, KA2PBT
On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:27 PM, John Stephensen kd6ozh@comcast.net wrote:
AMSAT-DL was the lead for phase 3 because they were able to get almost-free launches from ESA. However, ESA terminated that policy 10 years ago and AMSAT-DL has been trying to get government funding through their Mars program. That was rejected a year or two ago. Private launch companies are asking for $8,000,000..The world-wide fund raising by AMSAT-DL, AMSAT-UK, AMSAT-NA, AMSAT-Japan, ARRL and RSGB for each of the phase 3 launches acheived less than 10% of what is now required for a launch.
In the past, a launch opportunity was identified by ESA and then a satellite was built by AMSAT. P3E did the reverse -- building a satellite and hoping for a launch. I brought up AMSAT-DL because someone was complaining that AMSAT-NA was leading them on about HEO possibilities. They should review videos of the AMSAT-DL presentations at the annual AMSAT-UK meetings. AMSAT-NA has been much more realistic.
73,
John KD6OZH
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
While anything is possible I will be very surprised (pleasntly) if there is another amateur radio satellite with a liquid propulsion system that is managed by any amateur group that gets a ride into any sort of HEO transfer orbit.Ion engines might be different but after AO-40 and its propulsion issues the days of amateurs playing with rocket engines on commercial flights I suspect is over.
Robert WB5MZO and soon S2 something
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 20, 2013, at 11:09 PM, "John Stephensen" kd6ozh@comcast.net wrote:
The problem is that the government is no longer paying for those expenses as they did in the past. The $8,000,000 is the incremental cost not the cost of the entire launch.
73,
John KD6OZH
----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob" pabutusa@gmail.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 15:54 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3
I don't think we'll ever be in a position to "buy" a launch the most we will ever be able to do is hope to piggy-back with a paying customer and possibly contribute to "expenses."
Maybe having a payload "on the shelf ready" isn't such a bad plan .... if a "short window of opportunity" were to open up ... and we had nothing ready that would be an opportunity lost. Maybe we should have various payloads sitting on the shelf (cube, micro, mini, P3) just in case.
Piggy-back rides is how Amateur Radio Satellites got their start .... it's the only way to continue.
--> Rob, KA2PBT
On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:27 PM, John Stephensen kd6ozh@comcast.net wrote:
AMSAT-DL was the lead for phase 3 because they were able to get almost-free launches from ESA. However, ESA terminated that policy 10 years ago and AMSAT-DL has been trying to get government funding through their Mars program. That was rejected a year or two ago. Private launch companies are asking for $8,000,000..The world-wide fund raising by AMSAT-DL, AMSAT-UK, AMSAT-NA, AMSAT-Japan, ARRL and RSGB for each of the phase 3 launches acheived less than 10% of what is now required for a launch.
In the past, a launch opportunity was identified by ESA and then a satellite was built by AMSAT. P3E did the reverse -- building a satellite and hoping for a launch. I brought up AMSAT-DL because someone was complaining that AMSAT-NA was leading them on about HEO possibilities. They should review videos of the AMSAT-DL presentations at the annual AMSAT-UK meetings. AMSAT-NA has been much more realistic.
73,
John KD6OZH
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 11:23:29PM +0600, R Oler wrote:
While anything is possible I will be very surprised (pleasntly) if there is another amateur radio satellite with a liquid propulsion system that is managed by any amateur group that gets a ride into any sort of HEO transfer orbit.Ion engines might be different but after AO-40 and its propulsion issues the days of amateurs playing with rocket engines on commercial flights I suspect is over.
This is something I've often wondered about. "Oh hi, commercial rocket company, can we stick our homebrewed rocket into your billion dollar vehicle?"
When people with more oil than weapons stuff some mix of chemicals into a tube and crimp the end shut it's called an Improvised Explosive Device. We're supposed to somehow convince someone to let us tack our semitested bomb onto their flight? I doubt they're going to go for it...
:-)
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce Sent: zaterdag 21 september 2013 11:49 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3
On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 11:23:29PM +0600, R Oler wrote:
While anything is possible I will be very surprised (pleasntly) if
there is another amateur radio satellite with a liquid propulsion system that is managed by any amateur group that gets a ride into any sort of HEO transfer orbit.Ion engines might be different but after AO- 40 and its propulsion issues the days of amateurs playing with rocket engines on commercial flights I suspect is over.
This is something I've often wondered about. "Oh hi, commercial rocket company, can we stick our homebrewed rocket into your billion dollar vehicle?"
When people with more oil than weapons stuff some mix of chemicals into a tube and crimp the end shut it's called an Improvised Explosive Device. We're supposed to somehow convince someone to let us tack our semitested bomb onto their flight? I doubt they're going to go for it...
-- Gordonjcp MM0YEQ
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
there are possibilities however, SpaceX is going to do at least one full and one semi test flight on the heavy...the semi test flight is for the USAF and they are carrying ballast...and the final stage has to do a disposal burn RGO
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 21, 2013, at 10:20 PM, "Marc Vermeersch" amvm@skynet.be wrote:
:-)
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce Sent: zaterdag 21 september 2013 11:49 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3
On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 11:23:29PM +0600, R Oler wrote: While anything is possible I will be very surprised (pleasntly) if
there is another amateur radio satellite with a liquid propulsion system that is managed by any amateur group that gets a ride into any sort of HEO transfer orbit.Ion engines might be different but after AO- 40 and its propulsion issues the days of amateurs playing with rocket engines on commercial flights I suspect is over.
This is something I've often wondered about. "Oh hi, commercial rocket company, can we stick our homebrewed rocket into your billion dollar vehicle?"
When people with more oil than weapons stuff some mix of chemicals into a tube and crimp the end shut it's called an Improvised Explosive Device. We're supposed to somehow convince someone to let us tack our semitested bomb onto their flight? I doubt they're going to go for it...
-- Gordonjcp MM0YEQ
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Trust me, no one out there wants me to be more totally wrong about P3-E than myself but my guess is that it will never ever see space. I want to be wrong soooooo bad but I'm a realist. 73, Michael, W4HIJ On 9/21/2013 12:50 PM, R Oler wrote:
there are possibilities however, SpaceX is going to do at least one full and one semi test flight on the heavy...the semi test flight is for the USAF and they are carrying ballast...and the final stage has to do a disposal burn RGO
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 21, 2013, at 10:20 PM, "Marc Vermeersch" amvm@skynet.be wrote:
:-)
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce Sent: zaterdag 21 september 2013 11:49 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3
On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 11:23:29PM +0600, R Oler wrote: While anything is possible I will be very surprised (pleasntly) if
there is another amateur radio satellite with a liquid propulsion system that is managed by any amateur group that gets a ride into any sort of HEO transfer orbit.Ion engines might be different but after AO- 40 and its propulsion issues the days of amateurs playing with rocket engines on commercial flights I suspect is over.
This is something I've often wondered about. "Oh hi, commercial rocket company, can we stick our homebrewed rocket into your billion dollar vehicle?"
When people with more oil than weapons stuff some mix of chemicals into a tube and crimp the end shut it's called an Improvised Explosive Device. We're supposed to somehow convince someone to let us tack our semitested bomb onto their flight? I doubt they're going to go for it...
-- Gordonjcp MM0YEQ
Not to single out Michael on this, but I need to chime in. Realism has its place, but it also has its dangers. Too much of it, and you just might get your way.
At work, several major programs were behind schedule. The teams were working hard, but cutting-edge work is never easy, and significant problems remained to be overcome. Our engineering manager sent out the following email, to remind us of our task:
--------------------- There once was a bunch of tiny frogs who got together to arrange a competition to reach to the top of the highest tower in town.
As the date for the competition was announced, the news spread everywhere and crowd in large numbers gathered around the tower to see this interesting competition and cheer on the contestants. The crowd did not really believe any of these little frogs were going to make it to the top of the tower. Yet they were curious…
The competition began, the frogs quickly started to ascend and the crowd cheered!
As a few moments passed, someone from the crowd shouted, "Not a chance that they will succeed! The tower is too high!" Another spectator said, "Yes, they will never make it to the top. It's way too difficult!"
As the competition continued, some of the tiny frogs began collapsing. One by one… tired… exhausted… But the race continued… as those who still had the fight left, passionately continued to climb higher and higher… In the excitement and anxiety the crowd continued to yell, "It is too difficult. No one will make it!" More tiny frogs got tired and gave up. They all continued to give up one by one, until there was only ONE little frog left in the competition who continued to climb higher and higher and higher…
This one wouldn’t give up!
This one tiny frog who, after a big effort was the only one who reached the top! This little soul was the winner! He made it! He got the glory!
Naturally, everyone wanted to know how this one tiny frog managed to pull it off when every other contestant gave up. Everybody wanted to know how this tiny frog had found the strength to reach this goal that everyone else thought it was impossible. So, they asked questions.
It turned out that the winner was deaf.
The Moral Of The Story
Do not pay attention to what other people’s opinions are when it comes to your dreams and goals. Focus on your goal and march in confidence. People will always have opinions and generally – a negative one. Do not pay any attention to them.
I am inspired. I am deaf. Are you listening :-D ? -----------------------
I believe the AMSAT organizations across the planet will launch and operate the best fleet of Amateur Satellites that can be launched. Variety, including HEO, is and has always been a goal. We collectively are a creative bunch, and I know that there are technologies and options out there that we have not yet developed or identified, that will move us towards our goal. And when the satellites come, I will use them, with thanks.
Greg KO6TH
p.s. The first of the above referenced products will begin Release Candidate testing on Monday...
Michael wrote:
Trust me, no one out there wants me to be more totally wrong about P3-E than myself but my guess is that it will never ever see space. I want to be wrong soooooo bad but I'm a realist. 73, Michael, W4HIJ
that little frog kept thinking,"the difficult I can do immediately the impossible may take a little longer"
----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg D" ko6th.greg@gmail.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2013 12:48:00 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3
Not to single out Michael on this, but I need to chime in. Realism has its place, but it also has its dangers. Too much of it, and you just might get your way.
At work, several major programs were behind schedule. The teams were working hard, but cutting-edge work is never easy, and significant problems remained to be overcome. Our engineering manager sent out the following email, to remind us of our task:
--------------------- There once was a bunch of tiny frogs who got together to arrange a competition to reach to the top of the highest tower in town.
As the date for the competition was announced, the news spread everywhere and crowd in large numbers gathered around the tower to see this interesting competition and cheer on the contestants. The crowd did not really believe any of these little frogs were going to make it to the top of the tower. Yet they were curious…
The competition began, the frogs quickly started to ascend and the crowd cheered!
As a few moments passed, someone from the crowd shouted, "Not a chance that they will succeed! The tower is too high!" Another spectator said, "Yes, they will never make it to the top. It's way too difficult!"
As the competition continued, some of the tiny frogs began collapsing. One by one… tired… exhausted… But the race continued… as those who still had the fight left, passionately continued to climb higher and higher… In the excitement and anxiety the crowd continued to yell, "It is too difficult. No one will make it!" More tiny frogs got tired and gave up. They all continued to give up one by one, until there was only ONE little frog left in the competition who continued to climb higher and higher and higher…
This one wouldn’t give up!
This one tiny frog who, after a big effort was the only one who reached the top! This little soul was the winner! He made it! He got the glory!
Naturally, everyone wanted to know how this one tiny frog managed to pull it off when every other contestant gave up. Everybody wanted to know how this tiny frog had found the strength to reach this goal that everyone else thought it was impossible. So, they asked questions.
It turned out that the winner was deaf.
The Moral Of The Story
Do not pay attention to what other people’s opinions are when it comes to your dreams and goals. Focus on your goal and march in confidence. People will always have opinions and generally – a negative one. Do not pay any attention to them.
I am inspired. I am deaf. Are you listening :-D ? -----------------------
I believe the AMSAT organizations across the planet will launch and operate the best fleet of Amateur Satellites that can be launched. Variety, including HEO, is and has always been a goal. We collectively are a creative bunch, and I know that there are technologies and options out there that we have not yet developed or identified, that will move us towards our goal. And when the satellites come, I will use them, with thanks.
Greg KO6TH
p.s. The first of the above referenced products will begin Release Candidate testing on Monday...
Michael wrote:
Trust me, no one out there wants me to be more totally wrong about P3-E than myself but my guess is that it will never ever see space. I want to be wrong soooooo bad but I'm a realist. 73, Michael, W4HIJ
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
As far as I know, the kick-motors used on the Phase-3 birds were NOT cardboard tubes packed with homemade gunpowder. They were commercial grade motors obtained from the commercial aerospace industry. If I am wrong about this, and someone can jump in with facts, I'd be glad to hear.
On 09/21/2013 05:48 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 11:23:29PM +0600, R Oler wrote:
While anything is possible I will be very surprised (pleasntly) if there is another amateur radio satellite with a liquid propulsion system that is managed by any amateur group that gets a ride into any sort of HEO transfer orbit.Ion engines might be different but after AO-40 and its propulsion issues the days of amateurs playing with rocket engines on commercial flights I suspect is over.
This is something I've often wondered about. "Oh hi, commercial rocket company, can we stick our homebrewed rocket into your billion dollar vehicle?"
When people with more oil than weapons stuff some mix of chemicals into a tube and crimp the end shut it's called an Improvised Explosive Device. We're supposed to somehow convince someone to let us tack our semitested bomb onto their flight? I doubt they're going to go for it...
----- Original Message ----- From: "Angus McLeod" amcleod@caribsurf.com To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2013 9:27 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3
As far as I know, the kick-motors used on the Phase-3 birds were NOT cardboard tubes packed with homemade gunpowder. They were commercial grade motors obtained from the commercial aerospace industry. If I am wrong about this, and someone can jump in with facts, I'd be glad to hear.
Hi Angus,
The kitch apogee motors for OSCAR-10,and OSCAR-13 were solid propellant 400 Newton trust motors donated to AMSAT-DL by the Messerschmitt Aerospace Company in Germany.
The kick apogee motor for AO40 was a liquid propellant made with UMDH and nitrogen tetroxide but it failed to work because unfortunately someone before the flight forgot to remove the safety red cover over the exost valve of the fuel system and this is why after many attemps to overcome the problem the satellite got an explosion inside wich damaged most part of transponders. BTW AO40 worked fantastic in Mode U/S ,Mode L/S and Mode L/K for a long time until the main battery and the spare battery system suddently failed in short circuit.
73" de i8CVS Domenico
The people installing them and safing them and all the other things were mostly not rocket scientist that is why somewhere on AO-40 there is a "remove before flight" what we call in the business "flag" flying RGO
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 22, 2013, at 1:55 AM, "Angus McLeod" amcleod@caribsurf.com wrote:
As far as I know, the kick-motors used on the Phase-3 birds were NOT cardboard tubes packed with homemade gunpowder. They were commercial grade motors obtained from the commercial aerospace industry. If I am wrong about this, and someone can jump in with facts, I'd be glad to hear.
On 09/21/2013 05:48 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 11:23:29PM +0600, R Oler wrote: While anything is possible I will be very surprised (pleasntly) if there is another amateur radio satellite with a liquid propulsion system that is managed by any amateur group that gets a ride into any sort of HEO transfer orbit.Ion engines might be different but after AO-40 and its propulsion issues the days of amateurs playing with rocket engines on commercial flights I suspect is over.
This is something I've often wondered about. "Oh hi, commercial rocket company, can we stick our homebrewed rocket into your billion dollar vehicle?"
When people with more oil than weapons stuff some mix of chemicals into a tube and crimp the end shut it's called an Improvised Explosive Device. We're supposed to somehow convince someone to let us tack our semitested bomb onto their flight? I doubt they're going to go for it...
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
This I can say, for a fact, is not true. PROFESSIONALS did the fueling and safing as was required by contractual arrangements ahead of time.
Eye witness testimony given to me says there was an argument about what to do about the RBF plug. Extenuating circumstances, a nearly perfect storm of them, including a "not really clear coloration" and several other factors caused the decision to be taken not to remove it.
But one thing is absolutely clear. AMSAT personal were NOT responsible for fueling and safing. One or more participated but in "red hand mode" as in, if you touch, your hand will be slapped until it is red.....
http://n4hy.smugmug.com/AMSAT/AO40-Phase-3D/010-Final-Assembly/2109994_HNF8H...
It was NOT as clear as you make it out as you can see and it was most decidedly not "firey red" and clear as to what to do.
Where things are clear, they were and are marked clearly:
http://ukamsat.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/ao-40.jpg
The deal is, AO-40 flew. It gave quite a long period of interesting operation. It did not attain all of its goals and was an unbelievable complex achievement from the birth of the concept:
http://n4hy.smugmug.com/AMSAT/AO40-Phase-3D/001-Marburg0590/2107966_HX26gC#!...
until its death, it was and remains AMSAT (all versions and hyphens) greatest achievement.
On Sat, Sep 21, 2013 at 10:19 PM, R Oler orbitjet@hotmail.com wrote:
The people installing them and safing them and all the other things were mostly not rocket scientist that is why somewhere on AO-40 there is a "remove before flight" what we call in the business "flag" flying RGO
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 22, 2013, at 1:55 AM, "Angus McLeod" amcleod@caribsurf.com
wrote:
As far as I know, the kick-motors used on the Phase-3 birds were NOT
cardboard tubes packed with homemade gunpowder. They were commercial grade motors obtained from the commercial aerospace industry. If I am wrong about this, and someone can jump in with facts, I'd be glad to hear.
On 09/21/2013 05:48 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 11:23:29PM +0600, R Oler wrote: While anything is possible I will be very surprised (pleasntly) if
there is another amateur radio satellite with a liquid propulsion system that is managed by any amateur group that gets a ride into any sort of HEO transfer orbit.Ion engines might be different but after AO-40 and its propulsion issues the days of amateurs playing with rocket engines on commercial flights I suspect is over.
This is something I've often wondered about. "Oh hi, commercial rocket
company, can we stick our homebrewed rocket into your billion dollar vehicle?"
When people with more oil than weapons stuff some mix of chemicals into
a tube and crimp the end shut it's called an Improvised Explosive Device. We're supposed to somehow convince someone to let us tack our semitested bomb onto their flight? I doubt they're going to go for it...
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (10)
-
Angus McLeod -
Bob- W7LRD -
Gordon JC Pearce -
Greg D -
i8cvs -
John Stephensen -
Marc Vermeersch -
Michael -
R Oler -
Robert McGwier