Those so-called arcs that are said to be possible routes for the plane look much like the outer edge of one of the Inmarsat footprints. Is there logic behind the arcs or is it oversimplified nonsense? They are said to be the result of the signals Inmarsat received. But then why wouldn’t it be possible for the plane to be anywhere in the footprint?
I’m sure many in our group have good ideas. I’m not trying to start a discussion of the entire mystery, only this one narrow, but possibly misleading, aspect related to our hobby.
73, Tony, N2UN LM 183
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Tony, since the satellite cannot tell direction of the Ping, only distance, the arcs have the same distance from the plane making up a half circle. You would need to sats to hear the plane, see where the two arcs cross to determine a location.
This is the same way seismic stations locate earthquakes.
Rick - WB3CSY
Sent from Rick's iPhone 5 "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" - Albert Einstein
On Mar 16, 2014, at 12:24 PM, "Anthony Japha" ajapha@earthlink.net wrote:
Those so-called arcs that are said to be possible routes for the plane look much like the outer edge of one of the Inmarsat footprints. Is there logic behind the arcs or is it oversimplified nonsense? They are said to be the result of the signals Inmarsat received. But then why wouldn’t it be possible for the plane to be anywhere in the footprint?
I’m sure many in our group have good ideas. I’m not trying to start a discussion of the entire mystery, only this one narrow, but possibly misleading, aspect related to our hobby.
73, Tony, N2UN LM 183
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I think that the transmissions from the airplane are time tagged, even without the data packets being transmitted. By comparing the ping time to the time on the satellite, one can tell how far away the ping is. You can draw a circle with that radius, taking into account fuel available on the airplane and last heading to sort of kind of bound where the airplane is. That is where the red circles in the NY Times article come from.
A second satellite is needed to pinpoint a more exact location, but even that will have a relatively position error on the ground. I don’t think it is within range of another INMARSAT. Whether or not other assets exist that could receive the signal is a matter of speculation. - KK6MC
On Mar 16, 2014, at 2:01 PM, Rick Walter wb3csy@gmail.com wrote:
Tony, since the satellite cannot tell direction of the Ping, only distance, the arcs have the same distance from the plane making up a half circle. You would need to sats to hear the plane, see where the two arcs cross to determine a location.
This is the same way seismic stations locate earthquakes.
Rick - WB3CSY
Sent from Rick's iPhone 5 "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" - Albert Einstein
On Mar 16, 2014, at 12:24 PM, "Anthony Japha" ajapha@earthlink.net wrote:
Those so-called arcs that are said to be possible routes for the plane look much like the outer edge of one of the Inmarsat footprints. Is there logic behind the arcs or is it oversimplified nonsense? They are said to be the result of the signals Inmarsat received. But then why wouldn’t it be possible for the plane to be anywhere in the footprint?
I’m sure many in our group have good ideas. I’m not trying to start a discussion of the entire mystery, only this one narrow, but possibly misleading, aspect related to our hobby.
73, Tony, N2UN LM 183
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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The distance calculated between the satellite and the plane won't be credible if the time on both are not synchronized, even if the transmission from the plane is time tagged. As a matter of fact, it's quite difficult to keep such an synchronization.
Michael Chen, BD5RV/4 AMSAT-China: http://www.camsat.cn ----------------------------------- Twitter: http://twitter.com/bd5rv Email: michael.bd5rv@gmail.com MSN: bd5rv@jsdxc.org Skype: michael-bd5rv
On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 4:27 AM, James Duffey jamesduffey@comcast.net wrote:
I think that the transmissions from the airplane are time tagged, even without the data packets being transmitted. By comparing the ping time to the time on the satellite, one can tell how far away the ping is. You can draw a circle with that radius, taking into account fuel available on the airplane and last heading to sort of kind of bound where the airplane is. That is where the red circles in the NY Times article come from.
A second satellite is needed to pinpoint a more exact location, but even that will have a relatively position error on the ground. I don't think it is within range of another INMARSAT. Whether or not other assets exist that could receive the signal is a matter of speculation. - KK6MC
On Mar 16, 2014, at 2:01 PM, Rick Walter wb3csy@gmail.com wrote:
Tony, since the satellite cannot tell direction of the Ping, only distance, the arcs have the same distance from the plane making up a half circle. You would need to sats to hear the plane, see where the two arcs cross to determine a location.
This is the same way seismic stations locate earthquakes.
Rick - WB3CSY
Sent from Rick's iPhone 5 "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" - Albert Einstein
On Mar 16, 2014, at 12:24 PM, "Anthony Japha" ajapha@earthlink.net wrote:
Those so-called arcs that are said to be possible routes for the plane look much like the outer edge of one of the Inmarsat footprints. Is there logic behind the arcs or is it oversimplified nonsense? They are said to be the result of the signals Inmarsat received. But then why wouldn't it be possible for the plane to be anywhere in the footprint?
I'm sure many in our group have good ideas. I'm not trying to start a discussion of the entire mystery, only this one narrow, but possibly misleading, aspect related to our hobby.
73, Tony, N2UN LM 183
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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This is really a mystery, wonder what is the ELT frequencies used on modern aircraft , is it 121.5 Mhz or the new 406 Mhz. 73 Nitin [VU3TYG]
From: Michael Chen michael.bd5rv@gmail.com To: amsat-bb amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Monday, 17 March 2014 8:35 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Malaysian airliner puzzle
The distance calculated between the satellite and the plane won't be credible if the time on both are not synchronized, even if the transmission from the plane is time tagged. As a matter of fact, it's quite difficult to keep such an synchronization.
Michael Chen, BD5RV/4 AMSAT-China: http://www.camsat.cn
Twitter: http://twitter.com/bd5rv Email: michael.bd5rv@gmail.com MSN: bd5rv@jsdxc.org Skype: michael-bd5rv
On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 4:27 AM, James Duffey jamesduffey@comcast.net wrote:
I think that the transmissions from the airplane are time tagged, even without the data packets being transmitted. By comparing the ping time to the time on the satellite, one can tell how far away the ping is. You can draw a circle with that radius, taking into account fuel available on the airplane and last heading to sort of kind of bound where the airplane is. That is where the red circles in the NY Times article come from.
A second satellite is needed to pinpoint a more exact location, but even that will have a relatively position error on the ground. I don't think it is within range of another INMARSAT. Whether or not other assets exist that could receive the signal is a matter of speculation. - KK6MC
On Mar 16, 2014, at 2:01 PM, Rick Walter wb3csy@gmail.com wrote:
Tony, since the satellite cannot tell direction of the Ping, only distance, the arcs have the same distance from the plane making up a half circle. You would need to sats to hear the plane, see where the two arcs cross to determine a location.
This is the same way seismic stations locate earthquakes.
Rick - WB3CSY
Sent from Rick's iPhone 5 "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" - Albert Einstein
On Mar 16, 2014, at 12:24 PM, "Anthony Japha" ajapha@earthlink.net wrote:
Those so-called arcs that are said to be possible routes for the plane look much like the outer edge of one of the Inmarsat footprints. Is there logic behind the arcs or is it oversimplified nonsense? They are said to be the result of the signals Inmarsat received. But then why wouldn't it be possible for the plane to be anywhere in the footprint?
I'm sure many in our group have good ideas. I'm not trying to start a discussion of the entire mystery, only this one narrow, but possibly misleading, aspect related to our hobby.
73, Tony, N2UN LM 183
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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What I do not understand is why the Transponder is capable of being shut off at all?
That thing as soon as the plane is powered up should start transmitting, and continue to do so till the plane is shut down. And have no way anyone can shut it off in any way.
Why does something like this seem sooo simple?
Then The the "Black Box" There is also no reason what so ever that it has to be the only recording of the planes parameters. Sure record it, no problem, BUT... there is no reason why this can not be transmitted live or compressed and transmitted in packets to ground stations to save. This way if a plane goes down you do not need to "Recover" the "Black Box" every bit of data is already on the ground saved.
Again Like DUH?
Joe WB9SBD Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com On 3/17/2014 12:22 PM, Nitin Muttin wrote:
This is really a mystery, wonder what is the ELT frequencies used on modern aircraft , is it 121.5 Mhz or the new 406 Mhz.
73 Nitin [VU3TYG]
From: Michael Chen michael.bd5rv@gmail.com To: amsat-bb amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Monday, 17 March 2014 8:35 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Malaysian airliner puzzle
The distance calculated between the satellite and the plane won't be credible if the time on both are not synchronized, even if the transmission from the plane is time tagged. As a matter of fact, it's quite difficult to keep such an synchronization.
Michael Chen, BD5RV/4 AMSAT-China: http://www.camsat.cn
Twitter: http://twitter.com/bd5rv Email: michael.bd5rv@gmail.com MSN: bd5rv@jsdxc.org Skype: michael-bd5rv
On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 4:27 AM, James Duffey jamesduffey@comcast.net wrote:
I think that the transmissions from the airplane are time tagged, even without the data packets being transmitted. By comparing the ping time to the time on the satellite, one can tell how far away the ping is. You can draw a circle with that radius, taking into account fuel available on the airplane and last heading to sort of kind of bound where the airplane is. That is where the red circles in the NY Times article come from.
A second satellite is needed to pinpoint a more exact location, but even that will have a relatively position error on the ground. I don't think it is within range of another INMARSAT. Whether or not other assets exist that could receive the signal is a matter of speculation. - KK6MC
On Mar 16, 2014, at 2:01 PM, Rick Walter wb3csy@gmail.com wrote:
Tony, since the satellite cannot tell direction of the Ping, only distance, the arcs have the same distance from the plane making up a half circle. You would need to sats to hear the plane, see where the two arcs cross to determine a location.
This is the same way seismic stations locate earthquakes.
Rick - WB3CSY
Sent from Rick's iPhone 5 "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" - Albert Einstein
On Mar 16, 2014, at 12:24 PM, "Anthony Japha" ajapha@earthlink.net wrote:
Those so-called arcs that are said to be possible routes for the plane look much like the outer edge of one of the Inmarsat footprints. Is there logic behind the arcs or is it oversimplified nonsense? They are said to be the result of the signals Inmarsat received. But then why wouldn't it be possible for the plane to be anywhere in the footprint?
I'm sure many in our group have good ideas. I'm not trying to start a discussion of the entire mystery, only this one narrow, but possibly misleading, aspect related to our hobby.
73, Tony, N2UN LM 183
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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The Transponder has have the ability to be powered off. It can't be allowed to transmit while on the ground, and also has to be assigned a code from the air terrific controllers before being activated. Also if it is outside of the beaconing system's radar(or radio ADSB) interrogating range there would be no data anyway. I do like the black box idea though.
73 Jeff kb2m
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 1:40 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Malaysian airliner puzzle
What I do not understand is why the Transponder is capable of being shut off at all?
That thing as soon as the plane is powered up should start transmitting, and continue to do so till the plane is shut down. And have no way anyone can shut it off in any way.
Why does something like this seem sooo simple?
Then The the "Black Box" There is also no reason what so ever that it has to be the only recording of the planes parameters. Sure record it, no problem, BUT... there is no reason why this can not be transmitted live or compressed and transmitted in packets to ground stations to save. This way if a plane goes down you do not need to "Recover" the "Black Box" every bit of data is already on the ground saved.
Again Like DUH?
Joe WB9SBD Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com On 3/17/2014 12:22 PM, Nitin Muttin wrote:
This is really a mystery, wonder what is the ELT frequencies used on
modern aircraft , is it 121.5 Mhz or the new 406 Mhz.
73 Nitin [VU3TYG]
From: Michael Chen michael.bd5rv@gmail.com To: amsat-bb amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Monday, 17 March 2014 8:35 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Malaysian airliner puzzle
The distance calculated between the satellite and the plane won't be credible if the time on both are not synchronized, even if the transmission from the plane is time tagged. As a matter of fact, it's quite difficult to keep such an synchronization.
Michael Chen, BD5RV/4 AMSAT-China: http://www.camsat.cn
Twitter: http://twitter.com/bd5rv Email: michael.bd5rv@gmail.com MSN: bd5rv@jsdxc.org Skype: michael-bd5rv
On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 4:27 AM, James Duffey jamesduffey@comcast.net
wrote:
I think that the transmissions from the airplane are time tagged, even
without the data packets being transmitted. By comparing the ping time to the time on the satellite, one can tell how far away the ping is. You can draw a circle with that radius, taking into account fuel available on the airplane and last heading to sort of kind of bound where the airplane is. That is where the red circles in the NY Times article come from.
A second satellite is needed to pinpoint a more exact location, but even that will have a relatively position error on the ground. I don't think it is within range of another INMARSAT. Whether or not other assets exist that could receive the signal is a matter of speculation. - KK6MC
On Mar 16, 2014, at 2:01 PM, Rick Walter wb3csy@gmail.com wrote:
Tony, since the satellite cannot tell direction of the Ping, only
distance, the arcs have the same distance from the plane making up a half circle. You would need to sats to hear the plane, see where the two arcs cross to determine a location.
This is the same way seismic stations locate earthquakes.
Rick - WB3CSY
Sent from Rick's iPhone 5 "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" - Albert Einstein
On Mar 16, 2014, at 12:24 PM, "Anthony Japha" ajapha@earthlink.net
wrote:
Those so-called arcs that are said to be possible routes for the plane
look much like the outer edge of one of the Inmarsat footprints. Is there logic behind the arcs or is it oversimplified nonsense? They are said to be the result of the signals Inmarsat received. But then why wouldn't it be possible for the plane to be anywhere in the footprint?
I'm sure many in our group have good ideas. I'm not trying to start a
discussion of the entire mystery, only this one narrow, but possibly misleading, aspect related to our hobby.
73, Tony, N2UN LM 183
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
protection is active.
http://www.avast.com _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the
author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
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author.
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program!
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On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 12:40:05PM -0500, Joe wrote:
What I do not understand is why the Transponder is capable of being shut off at all?
That thing as soon as the plane is powered up should start transmitting, and continue to do so till the plane is shut down. And have no way anyone can shut it off in any way.
Because it takes a ludicrous amount of power to run. It would be one of the first things you'd turn off if you were load-shedding for some reason.
Sorry if off topic.
Looks like it is all three 121.5 / 243/ 406
http://www.acrartex.com/products/catalog/elts-commercialmilitary/b406-4/
If the aircraft did crash in Bay of Bengal / Indian ocean and ELT operational the signals would have been picked up by satellites
.http://inmcc.istrac.org/brochurehtml/index.htm
73 Nitin [VU3TYG]
From: Nitin Muttin vu3tyg@yahoo.co.in To: amsat-bb amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Monday, 17 March 2014 10:52 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Malaysian airliner puzzle
This is really a mystery, wonder what is the ELT frequencies used on modern aircraft , is it 121.5 Mhz or the new 406 Mhz. 73 Nitin [VU3TYG]
From: Michael Chen michael.bd5rv@gmail.com To: amsat-bb amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Monday, 17 March 2014 8:35 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Malaysian airliner puzzle
The distance calculated between the satellite and the plane won't be credible if the time on both are not synchronized, even if the transmission from the plane is time tagged. As a matter of fact, it's quite difficult to keep such an synchronization.
Michael Chen, BD5RV/4 AMSAT-China: http://www.camsat.cn
Twitter: http://twitter.com/bd5rv Email: michael.bd5rv@gmail.com MSN: bd5rv@jsdxc.org Skype: michael-bd5rv
On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 4:27 AM, James Duffey jamesduffey@comcast.net wrote:
I think that the transmissions from the airplane are time tagged, even without the data packets being transmitted. By comparing the ping time to the time on the satellite, one can tell how far away the ping is. You can draw a circle with that radius, taking into account fuel available on the airplane and last heading to sort of kind of bound where the airplane is. That is where the red circles in the NY Times article come from.
A second satellite is needed to pinpoint a more exact location, but even that will have a relatively position error on the ground. I don't think it is within range of another INMARSAT. Whether or not other assets exist that could receive the signal is a matter of speculation. - KK6MC
On Mar 16, 2014, at 2:01 PM, Rick Walter wb3csy@gmail.com wrote:
Tony, since the satellite cannot tell direction of the Ping, only distance, the arcs have the same distance from the plane making up a half circle. You would need to sats to hear the plane, see where the two arcs cross to determine a location.
This is the same way seismic stations locate earthquakes.
Rick - WB3CSY
Sent from Rick's iPhone 5 "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" - Albert Einstein
On Mar 16, 2014, at 12:24 PM, "Anthony Japha" ajapha@earthlink.net wrote:
Those so-called arcs that are said to be possible routes for the plane look much like the outer edge of one of the Inmarsat footprints. Is there logic behind the arcs or is it oversimplified nonsense? They are said to be the result of the signals Inmarsat received. But then why wouldn't it be possible for the plane to be anywhere in the footprint?
I'm sure many in our group have good ideas. I'm not trying to start a discussion of the entire mystery, only this one narrow, but possibly misleading, aspect related to our hobby.
73, Tony, N2UN LM 183
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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_______________________________________________
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participants (8)
-
Anthony Japha -
Gordon JC Pearce -
James Duffey -
Jeff Griffin -
Joe -
Michael Chen -
Nitin Muttin -
Rick Walter