On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 6:41 AM, Luc Leblanc lucleblanc6@videotron.ca wrote:

Hi satellite fans

Just came out of a bad dream tonight after reading this Ariane 5 announcement?

"The 186th Ariane mission will launch two communications satellites, primarily intended for direct TV broadcast services and data networks: HOT BIRDTM 9 and W2M, both for Eutelsat.

This will be the 42nd Ariane 5 launch.

The launcher will be carrying a total payload of 9,220 kg, including 8,340 kg for the two satellites, which will be released separately into their targeted orbits."

Just note The 9220Kg payload and theses Ariane 5 figures

LEO Payload* (28.5 deg., 550 km) GTO Payload* (7 deg. inclination) 39,600 lb 18,000 kg (single / dual manifest) 15,000 lb / 13,160 lb 6,800 kg / 5,970 kg

Configuration Core + 2 SRB + Aestus Second Stage

Launch Mass 1,570,000 lb 710,000 kg

Estimated Launch Price US $120 M

• Performance provided by Arianespace.

There is room for a 150kg amateur HEO satellite and at an US$169 per kilo a 150Kg mass should cost US $25350!!!

I'm not too quick in calculus but how the +_ millions USD P3E and EAGLE launch cost came from? integration work? shipping and handling?

I know that at the top of a Ponzi pyramid numbers added very fast but even with the worst case scenario there is something who's not added up correctly here?

The killing question is: Is the actual P3E and EAGLE launch issues are really a financial matter? and those very high HEO launch cost estimates are hiding something else?

If you want to see where i got theses figures go to:

http://www.spaceandtech.com/spacedata/elvs/ariane5_specs.shtml

Luc:

This is interesting information, as always. In my opinion, your presentation of it is marred by the too-rapid accusation of illegal activity. My impression is the contrary: that AMSAT has benefited from the hard work of well-informed and well-placed volunteers, who have nonetheless been unable to find a workable price for a HEO launch in today's market. So perhaps there is another explanation for the discrepancy you observe.

I remember that the 1-kg cubesat launches cost roughly $40,000, and that this is considered an incredibly low price. This makes me suspect that determining the launch cost by long division only, to derive your $25,000, might not be sufficient.

I think it is very important that, as an organization, we do not become upset with those who attempt to find HEO/GEO opportunities and bring back bad news to us. I'll put this more broadly: I think the biggest threat to AMSAT today is not the lack of launch opportunities, but rather the bitterness and consequential unwarranted recriminations that come from our thwarted ambitions.

73, Bruce VE9QRP

You're off by a factor of more than 100 in cost. The payload is less than 1% of the launch mass. Pricing is also not linear as there are costs in addition to fuel.

73,

John KD6OZH

----- Original Message ----- From: "Luc Leblanc" lucleblanc6@videotron.ca To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Cc: eu-amsat@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:41 UTC Subject: [amsat-bb] HEO launch possible???

Hi satellite fans

Just came out of a bad dream tonight after reading this Ariane 5 announcement?

"The 186th Ariane mission will launch two communications satellites, primarily intended for direct TV broadcast services and data networks: HOT BIRDTM 9 and W2M, both for Eutelsat.

This will be the 42nd Ariane 5 launch.

The launcher will be carrying a total payload of 9,220 kg, including 8,340 kg for the two satellites, which will be released separately into their targeted orbits."

Just note The 9220Kg payload and theses Ariane 5 figures

LEO Payload* (28.5 deg., 550 km) GTO Payload* (7 deg. inclination) 39,600 lb 18,000 kg (single / dual manifest) 15,000 lb / 13,160 lb 6,800 kg / 5,970 kg

Configuration Core + 2 SRB + Aestus Second Stage

Launch Mass 1,570,000 lb 710,000 kg

Estimated Launch Price US $120 M

• Performance provided by Arianespace.

There is room for a 150kg amateur HEO satellite and at an US$169 per kilo a 150Kg mass should cost US $25350!!!

I'm not too quick in calculus but how the +_ millions USD P3E and EAGLE launch cost came from? integration work? shipping and handling?

I know that at the top of a Ponzi pyramid numbers added very fast but even with the worst case scenario there is something who's not added up correctly here?

The killing question is: Is the actual P3E and EAGLE launch issues are really a financial matter? and those very high HEO launch cost estimates are hiding something else?

If you want to see where i got theses figures go to:

http://www.spaceandtech.com/spacedata/elvs/ariane5_specs.shtml

"-"

Luc Leblanc VE2DWE Skype VE2DWE www.qsl.net/ve2dwe WAC BASIC CW PHONE SATELLITE

---

Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb

G'day Luc

The way I read the specs on the web page is

Launch Cost = $120,000,000, Payload = 12770 Kg (not 710,000 Kg which is launch weight ), Total = $9397 / Kg, For a 150Kg sat that's around $1,400,000

73 Geoff VK3GE

-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Luc Leblanc Sent: Tuesday, 16 December 2008 21:42 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Cc: eu-amsat@yahoogroups.com Subject: [amsat-bb] HEO launch possible???

Hi satellite fans

Just came out of a bad dream tonight after reading this Ariane 5 announcement?

"The 186th Ariane mission will launch two communications satellites, primarily intended for direct TV broadcast services and data networks: HOT BIRDTM 9 and W2M, both for Eutelsat.

This will be the 42nd Ariane 5 launch.

The launcher will be carrying a total payload of 9,220 kg, including 8,340 kg for the two satellites, which will be released separately into their targeted orbits."

Just note The 9220Kg payload and theses Ariane 5 figures

LEO Payload* (28.5 deg., 550 km) GTO Payload* (7 deg. inclination) 39,600 lb 18,000 kg (single / dual manifest) 15,000 lb / 13,160 lb 6,800 kg / 5,970 kg

Configuration Core + 2 SRB + Aestus Second Stage

Launch Mass 1,570,000 lb 710,000 kg

Estimated Launch Price US $120 M

* Performance provided by Arianespace.

There is room for a 150kg amateur HEO satellite and at an US$169 per kilo a 150Kg mass should cost US $25350!!!

I'm not too quick in calculus but how the +_ millions USD P3E and EAGLE launch cost came from? integration work? shipping and handling?

I know that at the top of a Ponzi pyramid numbers added very fast but even with the worst case scenario there is something who's not added up correctly here?

The killing question is: Is the actual P3E and EAGLE launch issues are really a financial matter? and those very high HEO launch cost estimates are hiding something else?

If you want to see where i got theses figures go to:

http://www.spaceandtech.com/spacedata/elvs/ariane5_specs.shtml

"-"

Luc Leblanc VE2DWE Skype VE2DWE www.qsl.net/ve2dwe WAC BASIC CW PHONE SATELLITE

_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1852 - Release Date: 16/12/2008 18:11