It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD WA4HFN em55 Damon
If it wasn't for the Oscar class stations making "HI POWER multi contacts" who would help the vast majority of weak portable FD stations make their one FD contact? Certainly not a weak station calling CQ for 5 passes! I've never heard two OCS making contact with each other, it's always with a much weaker station. This is the other side of the same argument heard every year after FD. Anyway I got my contact :)
73 Jeff kb2m 2A SNJ
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:14 AM To: AMSAT Subject: [amsat-bb] FD Mess
It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD WA4HFN em55 Damon
Field Day to my understanding is to see how ops can get on the with the bare minimum of equipment needed to make the contact.NOT to blast the **** out of the bird and walk all over the little guy trying to play fair.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff KB2M" [email protected] To: "AMSAT" [email protected] Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 10:35:35 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
If it wasn't for the Oscar class stations making "HI POWER multi contacts" who would help the vast majority of weak portable FD stations make their one FD contact? Certainly not a weak station calling CQ for 5 passes! I've never heard two OCS making contact with each other, it's always with a much weaker station. This is the other side of the same argument heard every year after FD. Anyway I got my contact :)
73 Jeff kb2m 2A SNJ
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:14 AM To: AMSAT Subject: [amsat-bb] FD Mess
It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD WA4HFN em55 Damon
_______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
In my several years of being a licensed ham, this is the theme of most contacts about SAT work. The OSCAR class stations always just do whatever they want. It seems that the attitude is, I've spent the time and money to have this kind of station, and I'm entitled to use it at my discretion. I think it is great to see this kind of dedication to operating, but as many are saying here and have said before, it seems a little bit more than unfair that a single resource on the other end, is not shared fairly, especially for equipment which was intended to be shared.
Satellites are limited resources. If you put a lot of time and money into your station to use that limited resource, you might also consider putting some time and money into getting additional resources up in the air so that it's easier for you to make good use of your system.
Nothing is free in this world...
Gregg Wonderly W5GGW
On 6/27/2011 10:54 AM, [email protected] wrote:
Field Day to my understanding is to see how ops can get on the with the bare minimum of equipment needed to make the contact.NOT to blast the **** out of the bird and walk all over the little guy trying to play fair.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff KB2M"[email protected] To: "AMSAT"[email protected] Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 10:35:35 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
If it wasn't for the Oscar class stations making "HI POWER multi contacts" who would help the vast majority of weak portable FD stations make their one FD contact? Certainly not a weak station calling CQ for 5 passes! I've never heard two OCS making contact with each other, it's always with a much weaker station. This is the other side of the same argument heard every year after FD. Anyway I got my contact :)
73 Jeff kb2m 2A SNJ
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:14 AM To: AMSAT Subject: [amsat-bb] FD Mess
It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD WA4HFN em55 Damon
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
About 50 years ago during the SSB wars, Dubya TOO Ole Yankee, W2OY, was notorious for calling, *"CQ CQ, don't want any KIDS, LIDS or BUS PATROLS, just good clean A M signals!" * This describes at least three groups in ham radio today, not just on HF.
Kids *having fun* LIDS *being LIDS* Bus Patrols*commenting on the first two and jealous that they can't participate "their way"*.
Only thing changed is 50 years have passed and the topic is satellites, not AM.
Jim
On 6/27/2011 12:12 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
In my several years of being a licensed ham, this is the theme of most contacts about SAT work. The OSCAR class stations always just do whatever they want. It seems that the attitude is, I've spent the time and money to have this kind of station, and I'm entitled to use it at my discretion. I think it is great to see this kind of dedication to operating, but as many are saying here and have said before, it seems a little bit more than unfair that a single resource on the other end, is not shared fairly, especially for equipment which was intended to be shared.
Satellites are limited resources. If you put a lot of time and money into your station to use that limited resource, you might also consider putting some time and money into getting additional resources up in the air so that it's easier for you to make good use of your system.
Nothing is free in this world...
Gregg Wonderly W5GGW
On 6/27/2011 10:54 AM, [email protected] wrote:
Field Day to my understanding is to see how ops can get on the with the bare minimum of equipment needed to make the contact.NOT to blast the **** out of the bird and walk all over the little guy trying to play fair.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff KB2M"[email protected] To: "AMSAT"[email protected] Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 10:35:35 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
If it wasn't for the Oscar class stations making "HI POWER multi contacts" who would help the vast majority of weak portable FD stations make their one FD contact? Certainly not a weak station calling CQ for 5 passes! I've never heard two OCS making contact with each other, it's always with a much weaker station. This is the other side of the same argument heard every year after FD. Anyway I got my contact :)
73 Jeff kb2m 2A SNJ
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:14 AM To: AMSAT Subject: [amsat-bb] FD Mess
It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD WA4HFN em55 Damon
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
But is seems that this is "only" a problem on the FM birds.
Maybe it's past time to not build any more FM satellites and only the likes of AO-40.
I have given up on the FM birds because it seems that (using the words of the late W2OY) every kid lid and space cadet it there. (remind anyone of the 27 meter band?)
John, W0JAB heat shield up
True and isn't that actually breaking a FCC rule law also, ya know we must only run the minimum power needed to maintain the contact? being 50 DB stronger than any other signal on the bird is clearly breaking a federal law. rule.
Joe WB9SBD
The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com
On 6/27/2011 10:54 AM, [email protected] wrote:
Field Day to my understanding is to see how ops can get on the with the bare minimum of equipment needed to make the contact.NOT to blast the **** out of the bird and walk all over the little guy trying to play fair.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff KB2M"[email protected] To: "AMSAT"[email protected] Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 10:35:35 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
If it wasn't for the Oscar class stations making "HI POWER multi contacts" who would help the vast majority of weak portable FD stations make their one FD contact? Certainly not a weak station calling CQ for 5 passes! I've never heard two OCS making contact with each other, it's always with a much weaker station. This is the other side of the same argument heard every year after FD. Anyway I got my contact :)
73 Jeff kb2m 2A SNJ
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:14 AM To: AMSAT Subject: [amsat-bb] FD Mess
It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD WA4HFN em55 Damon
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Guys, this seems simple to fix. The arrl gets the logs of everyone. How hard is it to build a table of the sat contacts and check who gets more than the allowed one contact?
There is no such rule in the FD that limits you to one Satellite contact. You need AT LEAST one for the 100 bonus points:
From the FD rules (2011): 7.3.7. Satellite QSO: 100 bonus points for successfully completing at least one QSO via an amateur radio satellite during the Field Day period. "General Rules for All ARRL Contests" (Rule 3.7.2.), (the no-repeater QSO stipulation) is waived for satellite QSOs. Groups are allowed one dedicated satellite transmitter station without increasing their entry category. Satellite QSOs also count for regular QSO credit. Show them listed separately on the summary sheet as a separate "band." You do not receive an additional bonus for contacting different satellites, though the additional QSOs may be counted for QSO credit unless prohibited under Rule 7.3.7.1. The QSO must be between two Earth stations through a satellite. Available to Classes A, B, and F.
73,
Andreas, N6NU, CM87VK
On Jun 27, 2011, at 9:51 AM, Floyd Rodgers wrote:
Guys, this seems simple to fix. The arrl gets the logs of everyone. How hard is it to build a table of the sat contacts and check who gets more than the allowed one contact? _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
The ARRL should impose an ERP limit for satellite contacts. That would solve the problem. I don't see how running amplifiers on FD is in the spirit of what FD is all about. I've made contacts using 50 mw so why do stations use 100+ watts *before* the antenna.. I wouldn't want my kids playing around a FD site with this time of setup.
73 de Pat --- KA9SCF.
How would you enforce it? Robert G. Oler WB5MZO (life member AMSAT ARRL NARS)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 13:48:48 -0500 From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
The ARRL should impose an ERP limit for satellite contacts. That would solve the problem. I don't see how running amplifiers on FD is in the spirit of what FD is all about. I've made contacts using 50 mw so why do stations use 100+ watts *before* the antenna.. I wouldn't want my kids playing around a FD site with this time of setup.
73 de Pat --- KA9SCF. _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
ERP is especially fun.... Who's antenna gain numbers are you going to use??
Joe kk0sd
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of R Oler Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 2:24 PM To: [email protected]; Amsat BB Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
How would you enforce it? Robert G. Oler WB5MZO (life member AMSAT ARRL NARS)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 13:48:48 -0500 From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
The ARRL should impose an ERP limit for satellite contacts. That would solve the problem. I don't see how running amplifiers on FD is in the spirit of what FD is all about. I've made contacts using 50 mw so why do stations use 100+ watts *before* the antenna.. I wouldn't want my kids playing around a FD site with this time of setup.
73 de Pat --- KA9SCF. _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 13:48:48 -0500 Patrick Green [email protected] wrote:
The ARRL should impose an ERP limit for satellite contacts. That would solve the problem. I don't see how running amplifiers on FD is in the spirit of what FD is all about. I've made contacts using 50 mw so why do stations use 100+ watts *before* the antenna.. I wouldn't want my kids playing around a FD site with this time of setup.
Wouldn't that be AMSAT's job? It's certainly possible to work an FM bird with 5W from a handie, and a hand-held yagi.
I don't understand the obsession with having all-singing-all-dancing computer-controlled setups, where it automatically updates its orbital elements, automatically calculates when the next pass is, automatically calculates where to steer the aerial and what to tune the radio to and leaving the operator to just push the PTT and shout over the top of the QRP/P stations.
All the computer-controlled stuff just plain isn't amateur radio. If you want to sit in front of a computer and talk to people, use Skype.
Gordon MM0YEQ
Note that it says "additional QSOs may be counted for QSO credit ***unless prohibited under Rule 7.3.7.1*** " (emphasis mine), which you conveniently omitted.
Rule 7.3.7.1 says "Stations are limited to one (1) completed QSO on any single channel FM satellite."
So yes, there IS such a rule.
George, KA3HSW
----- Original Message ----
From: Andreas Junge [email protected] To: AMSAT -BB [email protected] Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 1:29:29 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
There is no such rule in the FD that limits you to one Satellite contact. You need AT LEAST one for the 100 bonus points:
From the FD rules (2011):
7.3.7. Satellite QSO: 100 bonus points for successfully completing at least one QSO via an amateur radio satellite during the Field Day period. "General Rules for All ARRL Contests" (Rule 3.7.2.), (the no-repeater QSO stipulation) is waived for satellite QSOs. Groups are allowed one dedicated satellite transmitter station without increasing their entry category. Satellite QSOs also count for regular QSO credit. Show them listed separately on the summary sheet as a separate "band." You do not receive an additional bonus for contacting different satellites, though the additional QSOs may be counted for QSO credit unless prohibited under Rule 7.3.7.1. The QSO must be between two Earth stations through a satellite. Available to Classes A, B, and F.
73,
Andreas, N6NU, CM87VK
Read a little further down in the rules it clearly states on the single channel FM birds ONLY ONE CONTACT Period it is very clear.
Joe WB9SBD
The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com
On 6/27/2011 1:29 PM, Andreas Junge wrote:
There is no such rule in the FD that limits you to one Satellite contact. You need AT LEAST one for the 100 bonus points:
From the FD rules (2011):
7.3.7. Satellite QSO: 100 bonus points for successfully completing at least one QSO via an amateur radio satellite during the Field Day period. "General Rules for All ARRL Contests" (Rule 3.7.2.), (the no-repeater QSO stipulation) is waived for satellite QSOs. Groups are allowed one dedicated satellite transmitter station without increasing their entry category. Satellite QSOs also count for regular QSO credit. Show them listed separately on the summary sheet as a separate "band." You do not receive an additional bonus for contacting different satellites, though the additional QSOs may be counted for QSO credit unless prohibited under Rule 7.3.7.1. The QSO must be between two Earth stations through a satellite. Available to Classes A, B, and F.
73,
Andreas, N6NU, CM87VK
On Jun 27, 2011, at 9:51 AM, Floyd Rodgers wrote:
Guys, this seems simple to fix. The arrl gets the logs of everyone. How hard is it to build a table of the sat contacts and check who gets more than the allowed one contact? _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
My game plan was to listen to the zoo on the FM birds just for kicks but use the linear birds for real contacts. After missing out last year as I was a complete SAT newbie, I snagged a contact with first pass on FO-29 with W3AO (25A MDC). I got a few more contacts on VO-52 before our washout send us packing.
All it took this year was an IC 9100, 2m/440 SAT beam, MacDoppler and a rotator. Next year it is back to the Arrow and the tripod but it was fun getting that one contact this year versus missing out last year.
One suggestion on the multiple FM contacts…if you know any calls that were making multiple contacts, call them out here. Granted, the call may be the field day call, but I did hear guys that were 1D (at home) making more than one contact. I just don't remember the calls. Peer pressure is a wonderful thing to correct bad behavior. We should single operators that don't play by the rules just as I would hope someone would let me know if I was doing something stupid on a pass.
BTW, I was W4TA 5A West Central Florida this year.
73,
Tom Schaefer, NY4I [email protected] EL88pb Monitoring EchoLink node KJ4FEC-L 489389 DSTAR Capable APRS: NY4I-15
On Jun 27, 2011, at 11:13 AM, [email protected] wrote:
It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD WA4HFN em55 Damon _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Is there a good FAQ / advice page online somewhere for relative newbies like myself on satellite etiquette (no high power, no continuous long calls, listen first etc)?
Dominic G6NQO
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
-----Original Message----- From: "Tom Schaefer, NY4I" [email protected] Sender: [email protected] Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 11:36:47 To: [email protected] Cc: AMSAT[email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
My game plan was to listen to the zoo on the FM birds just for kicks but use the linear birds for real contacts. After missing out last year as I was a complete SAT newbie, I snagged a contact with first pass on FO-29 with W3AO (25A MDC). I got a few more contacts on VO-52 before our washout send us packing.
All it took this year was an IC 9100, 2m/440 SAT beam, MacDoppler and a rotator. Next year it is back to the Arrow and the tripod but it was fun getting that one contact this year versus missing out last year.
One suggestion on the multiple FM contacts…if you know any calls that were making multiple contacts, call them out here. Granted, the call may be the field day call, but I did hear guys that were 1D (at home) making more than one contact. I just don't remember the calls. Peer pressure is a wonderful thing to correct bad behavior. We should single operators that don't play by the rules just as I would hope someone would let me know if I was doing something stupid on a pass.
BTW, I was W4TA 5A West Central Florida this year.
73,
Tom Schaefer, NY4I [email protected] EL88pb Monitoring EchoLink node KJ4FEC-L 489389 DSTAR Capable APRS: NY4I-15
On Jun 27, 2011, at 11:13 AM, [email protected] wrote:
It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD WA4HFN em55 Damon _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
So if there are three stations operating, only two can make a contact because the once two make contact with each other neither can contact the third.
John WA4WDL -------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Schaefer, NY4I" [email protected] Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:36 AM To: [email protected] Cc: "AMSAT" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
My game plan was to listen to the zoo on the FM birds just for kicks but use the linear birds for real contacts. After missing out last year as I was a complete SAT newbie, I snagged a contact with first pass on FO-29 with W3AO (25A MDC). I got a few more contacts on VO-52 before our washout send us packing.
All it took this year was an IC 9100, 2m/440 SAT beam, MacDoppler and a rotator. Next year it is back to the Arrow and the tripod but it was fun getting that one contact this year versus missing out last year.
One suggestion on the multiple FM contacts…if you know any calls that were making multiple contacts, call them out here. Granted, the call may be the field day call, but I did hear guys that were 1D (at home) making more than one contact. I just don't remember the calls. Peer pressure is a wonderful thing to correct bad behavior. We should single operators that don't play by the rules just as I would hope someone would let me know if I was doing something stupid on a pass.
BTW, I was W4TA 5A West Central Florida this year.
73,
Tom Schaefer, NY4I [email protected] EL88pb Monitoring EchoLink node KJ4FEC-L 489389 DSTAR Capable APRS: NY4I-15
On Jun 27, 2011, at 11:13 AM, [email protected] wrote:
It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD WA4HFN em55 Damon _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 03:13:34PM +0000, [email protected] wrote:
It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD WA4HFN em55 Damon
I know I am going to get hate mail again. I just know it. But here goes. I've been quietly suggesting that we should _not_ be encouraging sat use during field day, furthermore we probably should consider turning them off during field day to stop this.
Now hear me out before you hit that reply key. Field day operators are interested in those bonus points, we (amsat) are interested in promoting amateur radio sat operations. How many of these field day operations actually result in new satellite operators? Where are the surveys, stats? Does the extra massive battery use of our sats justify the PR? Keep in mind the state of AO-51 and FO-29.
Am I the only one? I'd be interested in a non-flame war discussion.
- 73 Diane VA3DB
On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 05:18:54PM -0400, Diane Bruce wrote:
Now hear me out before you hit that reply key. Field day operators are interested in those bonus points, we (amsat) are interested in promoting amateur radio sat operations. How many of these field day operations actually result in new satellite operators? Where are the surveys, stats? Does the extra massive battery use of our sats justify the PR? Keep in mind the state of AO-51 and FO-29.
Am I the only one? I'd be interested in a non-flame war discussion.
Sure, the person operating the radio is trying to collect the bonus points for their operation.
But most Field Day operations are a *group* effort. Many of the hams present may never have operated a satellite, and if shown that they can get on the FM sats relatively easily, may give it a try. There are typically dozens of people present besides the satellite operator, at least a few of which express some interest.
People who collect bonus points usually go for the public location/information table bonus as well, so you may be introducing possible future hams to satellite work.
If the argument is 'show me the data,' feel free to go collect it; the published FD scores is a good starting point for reaching out to the involved parties. Or you could fund a survey.
It seems silly to demand that outreach be justified for you; without it, you won't need those satellites anyway. Lack of outreach is a self correcting problem -- just add time, and there won't be any satellites left.
73,
Majdi, N0RMZ
On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 02:42:19PM -0700, Majdi S. Abbas wrote: ...
Sure, the person operating the radio is trying to collect the bonus points for their operation.
But most Field Day operations are a *group* effort. Many of the hams present may never have operated a satellite, and if shown
Sure. Both Clare VE3NPC and I have helped our club during field day in previou years, get at least one contact through a satellite. It amazes me how many antennas Clare can bring to a field day in the back of his station wagon. ;-) The FD mess situation is something we discussed for a few minutes at this years Field Day. (Note we are both AMSAT coodinators in the Ottawa area)
People who collect bonus points usually go for the public location/information table bonus as well, so you may be introducing possible future hams to satellite work.
That it might. I always do mention the amateur radio satellites when I do face-to-face PR at field day.
...
If the argument is 'show me the data,' feel free to go collect it; the published FD scores is a good starting point for reaching out to the involved parties. ...
It would be nice if the ARRL could ask for additional data from sat entries.
Or you could fund a survey.
I've suggested at least informal surveys could be conducted by AMSAT-NA. I've donated money to AMSAT-NA, our club (http://www.oarc.net) donates money to AMSAT-NA, surely AMSAT-NA could afford to run a simple e-mail survey. I'd help do it if I was asked.
It seems silly to demand that outreach be justified for you; without it, you won't need those satellites anyway. Lack of outreach
I've done my share of outreach in my area, that is not what I was demanding. I am simply asking, "Can we think of ways we can do things better?"
After seeing some other replies the "FD mess", it's rather obvious we are seeing the symptoms, not the problem. We are failing to educate.
I'm mulling over a few ideas. Perhaps we should ask ARRL to only give points for GOTA stations on sats? That way we maximise our sat outreach.
Anyone else have ideas?
73,
Majdi, N0RMZ
- 73 Diane VA3DB (AMSAT Coordinator, but sure not speaking for AMSAT) (ex OARC club president, but sure not speaking for them either)
I can absolutely claim at least 3 satellite converts as a result of the old get on the air and hammer away method, but 0 converts since the one and done era.
Joe kk0sd
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Majdi S. Abbas Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:42 PM To: Diane Bruce Cc: AMSAT Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 05:18:54PM -0400, Diane Bruce wrote:
Now hear me out before you hit that reply key. Field day operators are interested in those bonus points, we (amsat) are interested in promoting amateur radio sat operations. How many of these field day operations actually result in new satellite operators? Where are the surveys, stats? Does the extra massive battery use of our sats justify the PR? Keep in mind the state of AO-51 and FO-29.
Am I the only one? I'd be interested in a non-flame war discussion.
Sure, the person operating the radio is trying to collect the bonus points for their operation.
But most Field Day operations are a *group* effort. Many of the hams present may never have operated a satellite, and if shown that they can get on the FM sats relatively easily, may give it a try. There are typically dozens of people present besides the satellite operator, at least a few of which express some interest.
People who collect bonus points usually go for the public location/information table bonus as well, so you may be introducing possible future hams to satellite work.
If the argument is 'show me the data,' feel free to go collect it; the published FD scores is a good starting point for reaching out to the involved parties. Or you could fund a survey.
It seems silly to demand that outreach be justified for you; without it, you won't need those satellites anyway. Lack of outreach is a self correcting problem -- just add time, and there won't be any satellites left.
73,
Majdi, N0RMZ _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
"One-and-Done" is fine for the FM satellites. The (ONE!) guy I worked on SO-50 even said "Well, that's it on this bird!", and I got him later on AO-7.
We had a group of people who wanted to watch us work the satellites, so my son graciously surrendered his headphones, and several people listened as I ran AO-7 and VO-52.
They really enjoyed it, and now have a better understanding of what "Doppler Shift" is, and by watching the SatPC32 display, and the antennas, also have a basic understanding of satellite orbits, and why you need to keep moving the antennas.
I let them listen to some low passes of SO-50 and AO-51 that were mostly out over the Pacific, and as K6LCS said, the operators were well behaved.
I wouldn't dare let them listen to a pass over the middle of the country, as I'm sure they'd be discouraged!
73, Jim
On 06/28/2011 04:04 AM, Gary "Joe" Mayfield wrote:
I can absolutely claim at least 3 satellite converts as a result of the old get on the air and hammer away method, but 0 converts since the one and done era.
Joe kk0sd
-----Original Message----- From:[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Majdi S. Abbas Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:42 PM To: Diane Bruce Cc: AMSAT Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 05:18:54PM -0400, Diane Bruce wrote:
Now hear me out before you hit that reply key. Field day operators are interested in those bonus points, we (amsat) are interested in promoting amateur radio sat operations. How many of these field day operations actually result in new satellite operators? Where are the surveys, stats? Does the extra massive battery use of our sats justify the PR? Keep in mind the state of AO-51 and FO-29.
Am I the only one? I'd be interested in a non-flame war discussion.
Sure, the person operating the radio is trying to collect the bonus points for their operation.
But most Field Day operations are a *group* effort. Many of the hams present may never have operated a satellite, and if shown that they can get on the FM sats relatively easily, may give it a try. There are typically dozens of people present besides the satellite operator, at least a few of which express some interest.
People who collect bonus points usually go for the public location/information table bonus as well, so you may be introducing possible future hams to satellite work.
If the argument is 'show me the data,' feel free to go collect it; the published FD scores is a good starting point for reaching out to the involved parties. Or you could fund a survey.
It seems silly to demand that outreach be justified for you; without it, you won't need those satellites anyway. Lack of outreach is a self correcting problem -- just add time, and there won't be any satellites left.
73,
Majdi, N0RMZ _______________________________________________ Sent [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings:http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings:http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I am always amused by FD on the FM birds, and even more so the post-action comments that:
1) Don't understand what 2600 FM carriers on the input of an FM repeater does 2) Think that the other 2599 are LIDS and KIDS and are abusing the system 3) But they are doing it right by calling CQ with 5 watts 4) Have high expectations of making a contact 5) And then blame others when they don't. 6) Build up public expectations during demos and then fail miserably 7) etc etc...
Everyone with a license should know what "doubling" on an FM repeater sounds like. Now multiply that by 2600 and you should have ZERO expectation of anyone getting through... EXCEPT those that are 10 dB closer to the repeater, or 10 dB stronger than EVERYONE ELSE. In space, everyone is somewhere between 400 to 1500 miles away, so there is only a small discrimination in range (but it does give everyone a slightly better chance for a minute or 2).
Even if EVERYONE ran 5 watts, still absolutely no one would get through. Even if only 10% are actually key-down for 1 second to see if they can get in, that is still 260 signals at 5W each or about 1300 W. (continuous horizon to horizon).
Thank goodness a few people ran enough power to overcome the input NOISE floor and made a contact so that those of us doing RECEIVE-ONLY Demo's had something to demo. And to educate observers about the nature of a single channel FM bird... and a few comments about human nature.
Having high expectations and then condemning other operators is the wrong way to demo ham radio. It only shows that one does not have a good understanding of the system, of RF, and of human nature. Everyone should read the "Tragedy of the commons". We have known about this problem of human nature for hundreds of years. It's amazing how many people have to learn it every year at FD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
Remember, the THEM is you and me.
Bob, Wb4APR
You raise an interesting point and something I've wondered about for some time now.
IF the sat operators are always so bent out of shape when someone actually uses the sats, then why the heck does AMSAT promote a parallel Field Day event with ARRL's Field Day??
I think it's about time for AMSAT to have their OWN Field Day Event ON A SEPARATE WEEKEND!!!
That way the "serious" sat operators can play all they want on their linear birds and leave the FM sats for the ARRL Field Day participants. Then AMSAT can have it's own Field Day (or SAT DAY) with it's own rules, like a 100 pt bonus for working 2 or more qso's on a linear bird or a 200 pt deduction for working an FM bird, etc.
73,
Jeff Moore -- KE7ACY CN94 Shields Up!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Diane Bruce" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
I know I am going to get hate mail again. I just know it. But here goes. I've been quietly suggesting that we should _not_ be encouraging sat use during field day, furthermore we probably should consider turning them off during field day to stop this.
Now hear me out before you hit that reply key. Field day operators are interested in those bonus points, we (amsat) are interested in promoting amateur radio sat operations. How many of these field day operations actually result in new satellite operators? Where are the surveys, stats? Does the extra massive battery use of our sats justify the PR? Keep in mind the state of AO-51 and FO-29.
Am I the only one? I'd be interested in a non-flame war discussion.
- 73 Diane VA3DB
Jeff, The way to fix it is to get the ARRL to drop the 100 Bonus points for the first satellite contact. Then we can talk to ourselves on Satellite with 0 days of chaos!
Art, KC6UQH
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jeff Moore Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:23 PM To: AMSAT Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
You raise an interesting point and something I've wondered about for some time now.
IF the sat operators are always so bent out of shape when someone actually uses the sats, then why the heck does AMSAT promote a parallel Field Day event with ARRL's Field Day??
I think it's about time for AMSAT to have their OWN Field Day Event ON A SEPARATE WEEKEND!!!
That way the "serious" sat operators can play all they want on their linear birds and leave the FM sats for the ARRL Field Day participants. Then AMSAT
can have it's own Field Day (or SAT DAY) with it's own rules, like a 100 pt bonus for working 2 or more qso's on a linear bird or a 200 pt deduction for
working an FM bird, etc.
73,
Jeff Moore -- KE7ACY CN94 Shields Up!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Diane Bruce" [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
I know I am going to get hate mail again. I just know it. But here goes. I've been quietly suggesting that we should _not_ be encouraging sat use during field day, furthermore we probably should consider turning them off during field day to stop this.
Now hear me out before you hit that reply key. Field day operators are interested in those bonus points, we (amsat) are interested in promoting amateur radio sat operations. How many of these field day operations actually result in new satellite operators? Where are the surveys, stats? Does the extra massive battery use of our sats justify the PR? Keep in mind the state of AO-51 and FO-29.
Am I the only one? I'd be interested in a non-flame war discussion.
- 73 Diane VA3DB
Diane,
I'm not sure if I agree, but I am very willing to discuss. In past years I have taken many flames for demonstrating satellites to scouts and other visitors at our site because it always resulted in the one contact rule being broken. This year I had the satellite gear operational for maybe 10 minutes to assemble the Arrow, connect the handheld, make the contact, disassemble the Arrow and put it all away.
It was easy, but not much of a demonstration. The 100 point bonus was the only reason for our doing it. Unless you have lots of folks at your Field Day site with nothing to do, there is no real reward to having an OSCAR station.
This is coming from someone who would still call themselves a satellite enthusiast.
73, Joe kk0sd
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Diane Bruce Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:19 PM To: [email protected] Cc: AMSAT Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 03:13:34PM +0000, [email protected] wrote:
It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too
many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD
WA4HFN em55 Damon
I know I am going to get hate mail again. I just know it. But here goes. I've been quietly suggesting that we should _not_ be encouraging sat use during field day, furthermore we probably should consider turning them off during field day to stop this.
Now hear me out before you hit that reply key. Field day operators are interested in those bonus points, we (amsat) are interested in promoting amateur radio sat operations. How many of these field day operations actually result in new satellite operators? Where are the surveys, stats? Does the extra massive battery use of our sats justify the PR? Keep in mind the state of AO-51 and FO-29.
Am I the only one? I'd be interested in a non-flame war discussion.
- 73 Diane VA3DB
Hi all y'all,
As I sit here in Colombia (South America) visiting the XYL (KD5FCQ's) family wishing that I had been able to get through the right channels so I could have been on the air from here with my Arrow and HT, and having been far removed from Field Day this year, I was blown away when I got on to check my emails and it downloaded 100+ messages all at once... hoping to read about how successful Amsat FD was but the subject in the messages of course pretty much tipped off the content.
So I would like to make a few comments, not having had to sit in 100 degree heat for two days nor spend hours tearing down, setting up, tearing down again and setting up again my satellite station. I hope a lot of the furor I perceive is the result of heat and exhaustion and probably heat exhaustion too. Although it's 31 degrees Celsius here in Cali and I think that's about 90 and way humid in U.S. terms, with no air conditioning, so I'm moving kinda slow too...
In the many years past that I have manned our Tri County ARC FD satellite station, having been playing with satellites for a few decades now, one of the first things that comes up from the group (new ones who weren't there to ask the prior year, anyway) is about the bonus points and contacts on "AO-51" (their most recognized FM satellite). I give them the analogy similar to was mentioned in this thread by another, that trying "AO-51 (an FM single channel satellite) is like trying to have a conversation on the local repeater with a large uncontrolled group (no net or round table protocol) where a bunch of folks transmit at once and double and worse and nobody can understand anyone else, for the most part. The all understand that well enough.
So I introduce them to the linear birds, the story of AO-7 is always a winner to capture their attention especially it being older than many of them, and when the see the display of all of the satellites available via SatPC32 (which I show on a monitor for all to see during the entire event as well as some of the Amsat videos from the symposiums and meetings I show between passes) they are excited anew at the fact that there is way more up there than "AO-51". And we're off to the races!
Sure, it won't be for a few hours until these satellites come into range so they disperse and operate and experience the other stations or stay and watch some of the Amsat videos and look at the display board I also set up or chat with us more about satellites, but when the bird comes into range they are back and ready! I have an external speaker in addition to our headsets, so all can see the tracking and watch the antennas (yes, we do the whole computer aided doppler antenna rotator and stuff like that because I did my time with hand tuning and antenna pointing and I know good when I experience it) an the excitement and enthusiasm is contagious even back to the old guy like me which makes it well worth the time spent on the equipment and displays.
Oh, so there are only about 5-10 people at a time at our station... well yes, we're small and in the "country" but it's no less worth the effort. But that's still maybe 20-30 people or more both hams and visitors throughout the FD ops, and of those some will become more interested and even though it may take a few years... now that I am not there for FD this year, there are some others who were just observing a year or two ago who are now willing to take up the challenge and do their best at running a satellite station for the club FD. I don't know their setup or the results yet, I hope to read that in the next few days as they recover from heat and exhaustion and heat exhaustion but I'm jazzed that I (we, ALL of us who get on the satellites and make the contacts that give them the experience) may have played a part in that coming about.
The FM birds are great for demos at the club meeting and hamfests and such, but I leave them alone for FD. Well, not completely... I will check them early Sunday morning and usually get the one contact for one or two birds because it would probably be remiss of me to let the opportunity slip by for the spectators and the points. But only if there are no linear birds up at the time. And the spectators find that the FM contact wasn't necessarily so great compared to the many we could make with one linear satellite on one pass, but it is yet another facet of what is available to them in the amateur radio satellite world.
Don't be sad, don't be mad, don't freak out about the rules for one day of the year where chaos ensues due to the general physics of frequency modulation on one channel with thousands of participants... why not educate and enjoy!
I appreciate your time if you read this far, letting me share my thoughts from far away as a devoted Amsat and ARRL member (please reply off reflector if you have disagreements with my personal choices of memberships) and one who has had the PLEASURE of working satellites with many of you over the years. It's all good.
73, Jerry (HK/) N0JY
Hi Diane,
Given the chaos, it is easy to question the event. Then you get a letter such as this, and it gives you a new perspective. This is from one of our club members who I was coaching before Field Day on what birds to try, etc. I was not able to attend, but he did. Here's his report.
Greg,
Thanks. Back from a successful field day!
Yes, turns out AO-27 and AO-51 were both able to be heard well several times. I had trouble with uplink, but the discovered that the 2 meter feedpoint was broken ;(
There were about 5 ISS passes, including on visual last night. The repeater was on for one or two passes, but nary a word from the crew ;(
The real win was that some of our members got fascinate with the idea about an HT and handheld antenna. They heard several stations from "far off" and as each pass come interest grew. So that's a step forward.
See you at the next meeting.
take care, Carl
So, there you have it. "Typical" field day tribulations, no contacts, and still a positive result. In spite of all the chaos, 100 points, etc., operating Satellite is still a mystery to a significant portion of the Ham community, and a totally science fiction event for most of the general public. In some regards, there is no such thing as bad publicity, if it's handled right. So what we see as chaos, another person observing from afar might see as Hey! He's receiving signals from outer space with a walkie-talkie and a small TV antenna! How neat is that!
Greg KO6TH
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:18:54 -0400 From: [email protected] To: [email protected] CC: [email protected] Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 03:13:34PM +0000, [email protected] wrote:
It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD WA4HFN em55 Damon
I know I am going to get hate mail again. I just know it. But here goes. I've been quietly suggesting that we should _not_ be encouraging sat use during field day, furthermore we probably should consider turning them off during field day to stop this.
Now hear me out before you hit that reply key. Field day operators are interested in those bonus points, we (amsat) are interested in promoting amateur radio sat operations. How many of these field day operations actually result in new satellite operators? Where are the surveys, stats? Does the extra massive battery use of our sats justify the PR? Keep in mind the state of AO-51 and FO-29.
Am I the only one? I'd be interested in a non-flame war discussion.
- 73 Diane VA3DB
--
- [email protected] [email protected] http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth?
Sent via [email protected]. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 09:43:57PM -0700, Greg D. wrote:
Hi Diane,
Hiya.
Given the chaos, it is easy to question the event. Then you get a letter such as this, and it gives you a new perspective. This is from one of our club members who I was coaching before Field Day on what birds to try, etc. I was not able to attend, but he did. Here's his report.
Happily, I have seen some great constructive ideas on amsat-bb.
I love the idea of having a demo station for field day. Perhaps we could combine some ideas.
Instead of concentrating on just getting that 100 points via one QSO we could have 100 points for operating a "Get on the air" (GOTA) demo station. Furthermore this would be coordinated through designated net control stations pre-agreed with before the weekend begins. e.g. W1AW on the east coast, ??? mid, ??? on the west coast.
Field day sites would get their 100 points provided they worked the NCS, not each other and could prove they were introducing new people to sats.
Greg,
...
So, there you have it. "Typical" field day tribulations, no contacts, and still a positive result. In spite of all the chaos, 100 points, etc., operating Satellite is still a mystery to a significant portion of the Ham community, and a totally science fiction event for most of the general public. In some regards, there is no such thing as bad publicity, if it's handled right. So what we see as chaos, another person observing from afar might see as Hey! He's receiving signals from outer space with a walkie-talkie and a small TV antenna! How neat is that!
Yep. The demo aspect, even if it is only to other hams would be great for AMSAT.
- 73 Diane VA3DB
On Jun 27, 2011, at 9:13 AM, [email protected] wrote:
It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD WA4HFN em55 Damon
Damon - If this bothers you, or others, there are several things one can do to address this issue.
1. Use the linear birds. You can make more than a single contact per satellite, and the bandwidth available supports dozens of contacts in a pass. The linear birds are not without their problems, mainly different ways of dealing with Doppler shift and QRM, but the short nature of the contacts make coping with these problems much like dealing with HF QRM. One can easily make 5 or more QSOs per pass on a linear satellite with even primitive satellite operating abilities. You do the math, particularly after waiting for 5 satellite passes before you could make a contact. That is a 25:1 ratio in favor of the linear birds. To me it is lots less hassle to deal with the Doppler than to deal with the single signal nature of the FM birds and the payoff is significantly greater for not that much more effort.
2. Report the offenders. Field day rules specify one contact per FM bird per transponder. If you hear someone making more than one contact per satellite per transponder, write down the offender's call and the calls he works and send it to the ARRL. If you can make an audio recording of the offender so much the better. With this information the ARRL should be able to verify the offense from the logs and take action, at the least changing the entry to a check log and at the most DQing the entry. If the satellite ops cost a club a valid entry, I suspect that peer pressure will prevent it from happening again.
3. Contacts through the FM birds could not be counted for FD credit at all. This would exclude the newcomer with only FM HT capability, but I am not sure that trying to work an FM bird on FD is a good introduction to satellite operation anyway.
4. The FM transponders could be shut off during FD.
5. Satellite FM contacts could be limited to portable stations only. This would reduce the big station's capabilities to dominate the satellites. Their absence would not be
The FM satellite problems on Field Day are really just a concentrated version of the problems with FM satellites in general. While they are ideally suited to the beginner with minimal equipment, and hence a good introduction to satellite operation in general, the beginner who gets introduced to satellite operation with the FM birds really needs to move on to the linear birds to fully experience what satellite operation is capable of. If they do not move on, then the enticement of FM satellites has failed. And the resources used to launch then have not been used to their fullest. - Duffey KK6MC -- James Duffey KK6MC DM65tc Cedar Crest NM < [email protected] >
participants (25)
-
Andreas Junge -
Art McBride -
Bob Bruninga -
Diane Bruce -
Dominic Hawken -
Floyd Rodgers -
Gary "Joe" Mayfield -
George Henry -
Gordon JC Pearce -
Greg D. -
Gregg Wonderly -
James Duffey -
Jeff KB2M -
Jeff Moore -
Jim Jerzycke -
Jim Wright -
jmfranke -
Joe -
John Becker -
Majdi S. Abbas -
N0JY -
Patrick Green -
R Oler -
Tom Schaefer, NY4I -
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