The proposed modifications to the bylaws of AMSAT include a provision for the secretary and the board members to deny membership renewal to any member or member society. This is included in Article 1, Section 2. The new rule is:
Section 2. Applications for membership or renewal as Member or Member Society shall be submitted to and in the manner prescribed by the Secretary. *In the case of any applicant whose character, reputation, or conduct might make him or her an undesirable member, the Secretary shall refer the application to the Board of Directors (the "Board") for review; in all other cases, the Secretary shall have the authority to grant membership.*
Obviously, this is aimed at the folks who dared to challenge the board (and win) in a democratic election, and of course me, for daring to campaign for them. It is a fact that many non-profit boards have never learned about the fact that there *should* be contentious elections - that's what democracy is about. They just see them as a threat. So, here's a rather undemocratic rule which allows them to purge opposition, so that they will not be able to vote in the next election.
Because the board doesn't want you to interfere with their addition of this rule, they have required that you register any objection to this, and other new rules, by writing a letter on paper and mailing it with a stamp. Objections you post to the BBS are useful for discussion and I encourage you to do so, but the board will not count them.
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 5:13 PM Steve Rish steverish@inbox.com wrote:
Bruce, surely you jest. Are you saying the proposed by laws change would allow the AMSAT secretary to dictate the manner and process for potential members to join as well as solely determining who meets the standard for membership renewal? Would not such a proposed by law change require a majority approval by the membership?
Hi Steve,
First, I encourage you and everyone else to not just take my word but examine what has been proposed and form your own opinion.
I think it would also be appropriate for someone to scan the AMSAT letter and post it to the list, so that the membership could more conveniently discuss it here (before anyone brings up copyright law: no, not a consideration this time).
That said:
No, I don't think the secretary would *solely *determine who meets the standard. The board could also order the secretary to refer the application for renewal of any particular member, or member organization, to them, in addition to the Secretary acting alone.
They will have their majority approval of the membership, without fail, because of the way they have structured that. 10% of members have to write in paper on a letter with a stamp within about two weeks to even *trigger *an election by the members. Does this sound like they don't want the members to interfere?
There is also a new rule that a 3-year membership is required to run for the board. So, if they deny your renewal and interrupt your membership for even one day, you can't run, even if reinstated, until 3 more years pass by.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce,
If I remember correctly what we really had was some people run wanting change and at the next election they won and got on the board. Then when the change did not come quick enough or to their liking they openly revolted posting questionable rants on the BB and some going as far to create webpages listing all their complaints from their point of view only.
So then the ranting and division went on for some time until the next election came up, and the ones in question and YOU had your picks for the board.
Well we did that democratic thing and had another election and they lost by hundreds of votes.
So now the BOD that we voted in wants some rules put in place to try and prevent a repeat performance in the future and here you are again complaining.
Put it in writing and send it to BOD.
As for me I’m all for the changes if it prevents a repeat of the last mess.
Kevin WA7FWF #19623
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 4:44 PM, Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
The proposed modifications to the bylaws of AMSAT include a provision for the secretary and the board members to deny membership renewal to any member or member society. This is included in Article 1, Section 2. The new rule is:
Section 2. Applications for membership or renewal as Member or Member Society shall be submitted to and in the manner prescribed by the Secretary. In the case of any applicant whose character, reputation, or conduct might make him or her an undesirable member, the Secretary shall refer the application to the Board of Directors (the "Board") for review; in all other cases, the Secretary shall have the authority to grant membership.
Obviously, this is aimed at the folks who dared to challenge the board (and win) in a democratic election, and of course me, for daring to campaign for them. It is a fact that many non-profit boards have never learned about the fact that there should be contentious elections - that's what democracy is about. They just see them as a threat. So, here's a rather undemocratic rule which allows them to purge opposition, so that they will not be able to vote in the next election.
Because the board doesn't want you to interfere with their addition of this rule, they have required that you register any objection to this, and other new rules, by writing a letter on paper and mailing it with a stamp. Objections you post to the BBS are useful for discussion and I encourage you to do so, but the board will not count them.
Bruce Perens - Board Partner, OSS Capital LLC Venture Capital
Let's see. So far, that's Oligarchy 1, Democracy 0.
Steve AI9IN ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Schuchmann via AMSAT-BB (amsat-bb@amsat.org) Date: 04/20/21 20:43 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [AMSAT-BB] Re: AMSAT proposed "Don't Rock the Boat" rule
Bruce,
If I remember correctly what we really had was some people run wanting change and at the next election they won and got on the board. Then when the change did not come quick enough or to their liking they openly revolted posting questionable rants on the BB and some going as far to create webpages listing all their complaints from their point of view only.
So then the ranting and division went on for some time until the next election came up, and the ones in question and YOU had your picks for the board.
Well we did that democratic thing and had another election and they lost by hundreds of votes.
So now the BOD that we voted in wants some rules put in place to try and prevent a repeat performance in the future and here you are again complaining.
Put it in writing and send it to BOD.
As for me I'm all for the changes if it prevents a repeat of the last mess.
Kevin WA7FWF #19623
Bruce, Thanks for pointing this out. I wouldn't have noticed it otherwise. Does that modification mean that someone who objects to the action describedin Section 2 would/could be deemed undesirable for that conduct? How is someone'scharacter, reputation or conduct judged? What are the criteria? Who judges? Is therean appeal process? Is it a lifetime decision or temporary? If temporary, how long? Arethere warnings prior to the judgement? How many? If the undesirability ceases orcorrects itself, can the ability for membership be repaired? This is very vague and confusing. TNX/73, Bob K8BL
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021, 07:44:53 PM EDT, Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
The proposed modifications to the bylaws of AMSAT include a provision for the secretary and the board members to deny membership renewal to any member or member society. This is included in Article 1, Section 2. The new rule is: Section 2. Applications for membership or renewal as Member or Member Society shall be submitted to and in the manner prescribed by the Secretary. In the case of any applicant whose character, reputation, or conduct might make him or her an undesirable member, the Secretary shall refer the application to the Board of Directors (the "Board") for review; in all other cases, the Secretary shall have the authority to grant membership. Obviously, this is aimed at the folks who dared to challenge the board (and win) in a democratic election, and of course me, for daring to campaign for them. It is a fact that many non-profit boards have never learned about the fact that there should be contentious elections - that's what democracy is about. They just see them as a threat. So, here's a rather undemocratic rule which allows them to purge opposition, so that they will not be able to vote in the next election. Because the board doesn't want you to interfere with their addition of this rule, they have required that you register any objection to this, and other new rules, by writing a letter on paper and mailing it with a stamp. Objections you post to the BBS are useful for discussion and I encourage you to do so, but the board will not count them.
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 6:11 PM Bob Liddy (K8BL) k8bl@ameritech.net wrote:
Does that modification mean that someone who objects to the action described in Section 2 would/could be deemed undesirable for that conduct?
As far as I can tell, yes. All that is required is that something about your character, reputation, or conduct *might *make you undesirable as a member.
"Might" is important here. Might doesn't mean "does". It means no proof is required. All that is required is suspicion that something might make you undesirable.
How is someone's character, reputation or conduct judged?
The board, under the proposed rule, need not set down any concrete criteria for reputation, character, or conduct. Reputation could be that you don't have the Worked All States award. Or that you do. Character could be that you like to wear blue. Conduct could be that you spoke in opposition to anything at all.
Is it a lifetime decision or temporary?
This is not stated, nor is it stated that an initial application for membership can be denied, rather than a renewal. These folks were not careful drafters.
Are there warnings prior to the judgement?
There is no requirement to even *tell *you that you were denied renewal, as far as I can see. Or that you get your dues back. Maybe they would not tell you, and then simply reject your vote.
This is very vague and confusing.
Uh huh. Perhaps you can see why I am so frustrated with the incumbent board and their conduct. So many things seem irresponsible and poorly thought out.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce, OK, thanks for your comments/concerns. I was just trying to understand if there was some line not to stepover and what might happen if one did and if one could ever backup over that line and become OK again and why and when. Still confused. 73, Bob K8BL
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021, 09:23:00 PM EDT, Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 6:11 PM Bob Liddy (K8BL) k8bl@ameritech.net wrote: Does that modification mean that someone who objects to the action describedin Section 2 would/could be deemed undesirable for that conduct?
As far as I can tell, yes. All that is required is that something about your character, reputation, or conduct might make you undesirable as a member. "Might" is important here. Might doesn't mean "does". It means no proof is required. All that is required is suspicion that something might make you undesirable.
How is someone's character, reputation or conduct judged?
The board, under the proposed rule, need not set down any concrete criteria for reputation, character, or conduct. Reputation could be that you don't have the Worked All States award. Or that you do. Character could be that you like to wear blue. Conduct could be that you spoke in opposition to anything at all.
Is it a lifetime decision or temporary?
This is not stated, nor is it stated that an initial application for membership can be denied, rather than a renewal. These folks were not careful drafters. Are there warnings prior to the judgement?
There is no requirement to even tell you that you were denied renewal, as far as I can see. Or that you get your dues back. Maybe they would not tell you, and then simply reject your vote.
This is very vague and confusing.
Uh huh. Perhaps you can see why I am so frustrated with the incumbent board and their conduct. So many things seem irresponsible and poorly thought out. Thanks Bruce -----------------------------------------------------------
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On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 6:45 PM Bob Liddy (K8BL) k8bl@ameritech.net wrote:
I was just trying to understand if there was some line not to step over and what might happen if one did and if one could ever back up over that line and become OK again and why and when.
The short answer is "the board can do whatever they want". You don't even get a vote, this time, since getting 10% of the membership to mail in paper objection in time, using the post office, was never possible.
The longer answer:
ar·bi·trary | \ ˈär-bə-ˌtrer-ē https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arbitrary?pronunciation&lang=en_us&dir=a&file=arbitr08 , -ˌtre-rē \ Definition of *arbitrary*
1a: existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capricious and unreasonable act of willan arbitrary choiceWhen a task is not seen in a meaningful context it is experienced as being arbitrary.— Nehemiah Jordan b: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intrinsic nature of something an arbitrary standardtake any arbitrary positive number 2a: not restrained or limited in the exercise of power : ruling by absolute authorityan arbitrary government b: marked by or resulting from the unrestrained and often tyrannical https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tyrannical exercise of powerprotection from arbitrary arrest and detention 3law : depending on individual discretion https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by lawThe manner of punishment is arbitrary.
One person can take everyone’s objections by email then print them and mail them in.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 20, 2021, at 10:37 PM, Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 6:45 PM Bob Liddy (K8BL) k8bl@ameritech.net wrote: I was just trying to understand if there was some line not to step over and what might happen if one did and if one could ever back up over that line and become OK again and why and when.
The short answer is "the board can do whatever they want". You don't even get a vote, this time, since getting 10% of the membership to mail in paper objection in time, using the post office, was never possible.
The longer answer:
ar·bi·trary | \ ˈär-bə-ˌtrer-ē , -ˌtre-rē \ Definition of arbitrary 1a: existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will an arbitrary choice When a task is not seen in a meaningful context it is experienced as being arbitrary. — Nehemiah Jordan b: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something an arbitrary standard take any arbitrary positive number 2a: not restrained or limited in the exercise of power : ruling by absolute authority an arbitrary government b: marked by or resulting from the unrestrained and often tyrannical exercise of power protection from arbitrary arrest and detention 3law : depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by law The manner of punishment is arbitrary.
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Michael,
That's a fine idea. Since I am under moderation now, and can't reliably get anything on the AMSAT-BB list if at all, would you like to volunteer to do that?
And do please mention, if anyone notices I'm not answering things, it's because I'm blocked.
Thanks
Bruce
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 8:08 PM Michael Sartoretti kc2syf@gmail.com wrote:
One person can take everyone’s objections by email then print them and mail them in.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 20, 2021, at 10:37 PM, Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 6:45 PM Bob Liddy (K8BL) k8bl@ameritech.net wrote:
I was just trying to understand if there was some line not to step over and what might happen if one did and if one could ever back up over that line and become OK again and why and when.
The short answer is "the board can do whatever they want". You don't even get a vote, this time, since getting 10% of the membership to mail in paper objection in time, using the post office, was never possible.
The longer answer:
ar·bi·trary | \ ˈär-bə-ˌtrer-ē https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arbitrary?pronunciation&lang=en_us&dir=a&file=arbitr08 , -ˌtre-rē \ Definition of *arbitrary*
1a: existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capricious and unreasonable act of willan arbitrary choiceWhen a task is not seen in a meaningful context it is experienced as being arbitrary.— Nehemiah Jordan b: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intrinsic nature of something an arbitrary standardtake any arbitrary positive number 2a: not restrained or limited in the exercise of power : ruling by absolute authorityan arbitrary government b: marked by or resulting from the unrestrained and often tyrannical https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tyrannical exercise of powerprotection from arbitrary arrest and detention 3law : depending on individual discretion https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by lawThe manner of punishment is arbitrary.
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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If anyone has a financial hardship and needs assistance with a USPS First Class stamp, I will send them 55 cents via PayPal.
If your comments run more than four pages, I will send you $1.10 for the extra weight.
The rules stated seemed pretty clear: Want to discuss any portion of the proposed bylaws? Send AMSAT a note.
Clint Bradford K6LCS
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 20, 2021, at 8:09 PM, Michael Sartoretti kc2syf@gmail.com wrote:
One person can take everyone’s objections by email then print them and mail them in.
Bruce,
"The board can do whatever they want"...........
You are happily involved with the Open Research Institute, correct? Which is an "AMSAT Member Society". And, ORI according to its bylaws, basically only has members that are on its BOARD. (Here's a reference for the uninformed: ref: https://www.openresearch.institute/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/BYLAWS.doc)
AKA.... The Board can do whatever it wants....... sound familiar? (ref my initial line, or your short answer :-)
So, you are OK with organizations whose organizational fundamentals are ANTI-DEMOCRATIC in terms of having an open membership.... but burnt up over Rocking the Boat at AMSAT?!? (ref: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/unbelievable)
Joseph Armbruster KJ4JIO
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 10:37 PM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 6:45 PM Bob Liddy (K8BL) k8bl@ameritech.net wrote:
I was just trying to understand if there was some line not to step over and what might happen if one did and if one could ever back up over that line and become OK again and why and when.
The short answer is "the board can do whatever they want". You don't even get a vote, this time, since getting 10% of the membership to mail in paper objection in time, using the post office, was never possible.
The longer answer:
ar·bi·trary | \ ˈär-bə-ˌtrer-ē , -ˌtre-rē \ Definition of arbitrary 1a: existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of willan arbitrary choiceWhen a task is not seen in a meaningful context it is experienced as being arbitrary.— Nehemiah Jordanb: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of somethingan arbitrary standardtake any arbitrary positive number 2a: not restrained or limited in the exercise of power : ruling by absolute authorityan arbitrary governmentb: marked by or resulting from the unrestrained and often tyrannical exercise of powerprotection from arbitrary arrest and detention 3law : depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by lawThe manner of punishment is arbitrary.
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
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Joseph,
Since the moderator has made it impossible for me to answer your emails on the list, it is completely unfair of you to write attacks that I can't answer.
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 8:55 PM Joseph Armbruster < josepharmbruster@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruce,
"The board can do whatever they want"...........
You are happily involved with the Open Research Institute, correct? Which is an "AMSAT Member Society". And, ORI according to its bylaws, basically only has members that are on its BOARD. (Here's a reference for the uninformed: ref: https://www.openresearch.institute/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/BYLAWS.doc)
AKA.... The Board can do whatever it wants....... sound familiar? (ref my initial line, or your short answer :-)
So, you are OK with organizations whose organizational fundamentals are ANTI-DEMOCRATIC in terms of having an open membership.... but burnt up over Rocking the Boat at AMSAT?!? (ref: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/unbelievable)
Joseph Armbruster KJ4JIO
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 10:37 PM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 6:45 PM Bob Liddy (K8BL) k8bl@ameritech.net
wrote:
I was just trying to understand if there was some line not to step over and what might happen if one did and if one could ever back up over that line and become OK again and why and when.
The short answer is "the board can do whatever they want". You don't
even get a vote, this time, since getting 10% of the membership to mail in paper objection in time, using the post office, was never possible.
The longer answer:
ar·bi·trary | \ ˈär-bə-ˌtrer-ē , -ˌtre-rē \ Definition of arbitrary 1a: existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a
capricious and unreasonable act of willan arbitrary choiceWhen a task is not seen in a meaningful context it is experienced as being arbitrary.— Nehemiah Jordanb: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of somethingan arbitrary standardtake any arbitrary positive number
2a: not restrained or limited in the exercise of power : ruling by
absolute authorityan arbitrary governmentb: marked by or resulting from the unrestrained and often tyrannical exercise of powerprotection from arbitrary arrest and detention
3law : depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed
by lawThe manner of punishment is arbitrary.
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at
https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at
Bruce,
You don't seem happy or OK. I'm concerned about you. Try and get happy, and then please get back to me when you want to work on something. I have nothing but empathy for busy people trying to also do meaningful work. I am not retired. We are all busy people, and accepting of what we can give to each other along the way.
Best wishes! -Joseph KJ4JIO
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 11:58 PM Bruce Perens bruce@perens.com wrote:
Joseph,
Since the moderator has made it impossible for me to answer your emails on the list, it is completely unfair of you to write attacks that I can't answer.
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 8:55 PM Joseph Armbruster josepharmbruster@gmail.com wrote:
Bruce,
"The board can do whatever they want"...........
You are happily involved with the Open Research Institute, correct? Which is an "AMSAT Member Society". And, ORI according to its bylaws, basically only has members that are on its BOARD. (Here's a reference for the uninformed: ref: https://www.openresearch.institute/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/BYLAWS.doc)
AKA.... The Board can do whatever it wants....... sound familiar? (ref my initial line, or your short answer :-)
So, you are OK with organizations whose organizational fundamentals are ANTI-DEMOCRATIC in terms of having an open membership.... but burnt up over Rocking the Boat at AMSAT?!? (ref: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/unbelievable)
Joseph Armbruster KJ4JIO
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 10:37 PM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 6:45 PM Bob Liddy (K8BL) k8bl@ameritech.net wrote:
I was just trying to understand if there was some line not to step over and what might happen if one did and if one could ever back up over that line and become OK again and why and when.
The short answer is "the board can do whatever they want". You don't even get a vote, this time, since getting 10% of the membership to mail in paper objection in time, using the post office, was never possible.
The longer answer:
ar·bi·trary | \ ˈär-bə-ˌtrer-ē , -ˌtre-rē \ Definition of arbitrary 1a: existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of willan arbitrary choiceWhen a task is not seen in a meaningful context it is experienced as being arbitrary.— Nehemiah Jordanb: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of somethingan arbitrary standardtake any arbitrary positive number 2a: not restrained or limited in the exercise of power : ruling by absolute authorityan arbitrary governmentb: marked by or resulting from the unrestrained and often tyrannical exercise of powerprotection from arbitrary arrest and detention 3law : depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by lawThe manner of punishment is arbitrary.
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
-- Bruce Perens K6BP
- Board Partner, OSS Capital LLC Venture Capital
- CEO, undisclosed startup
Joseph,
I see that you are repeating an email that someone else just sent to you and copied to me. This seems something of a schoolyard game, and I don't see how you could expect me to be impressed. Parrots can repeat very well, but they aren't really *creating. *When you can create something worthy of someone else reading it, write back.
Thanks
Bruce
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 9:01 PM Joseph Armbruster < josepharmbruster@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruce,
You don't seem happy or OK. I'm concerned about you. Try and get happy, and then please get back to me when you want to work on something. I have nothing but empathy for busy people trying to also do meaningful work. I am not retired. We are all busy people, and accepting of what we can give to each other along the way.
Best wishes! -Joseph KJ4JIO
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 11:58 PM Bruce Perens bruce@perens.com wrote:
Joseph,
Since the moderator has made it impossible for me to answer your emails
on the list, it is completely unfair of you to write attacks that I can't answer.
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 8:55 PM Joseph Armbruster <
josepharmbruster@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruce,
"The board can do whatever they want"...........
You are happily involved with the Open Research Institute, correct? Which is an "AMSAT Member Society". And, ORI according to its bylaws, basically only has members that are on its BOARD. (Here's a reference for the uninformed: ref:
https://www.openresearch.institute/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/BYLAWS.doc)
AKA.... The Board can do whatever it wants....... sound familiar? (ref my initial line, or your short answer :-)
So, you are OK with organizations whose organizational fundamentals are ANTI-DEMOCRATIC in terms of having an open membership.... but burnt up over Rocking the Boat at AMSAT?!? (ref: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/unbelievable)
Joseph Armbruster KJ4JIO
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 10:37 PM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 6:45 PM Bob Liddy (K8BL) k8bl@ameritech.net
wrote:
I was just trying to understand if there was some line not to step over and what might happen if one did and if one could ever back up over that line and become OK again and why and when.
The short answer is "the board can do whatever they want". You don't
even get a vote, this time, since getting 10% of the membership to mail in paper objection in time, using the post office, was never possible.
The longer answer:
ar·bi·trary | \ ˈär-bə-ˌtrer-ē , -ˌtre-rē \ Definition of arbitrary 1a: existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a
capricious and unreasonable act of willan arbitrary choiceWhen a task is not seen in a meaningful context it is experienced as being arbitrary.— Nehemiah Jordanb: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of somethingan arbitrary standardtake any arbitrary positive number
2a: not restrained or limited in the exercise of power : ruling by
absolute authorityan arbitrary governmentb: marked by or resulting from the unrestrained and often tyrannical exercise of powerprotection from arbitrary arrest and detention
3law : depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not
fixed by lawThe manner of punishment is arbitrary.
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-- Bruce Perens K6BP
- Board Partner, OSS Capital LLC Venture Capital
- CEO, undisclosed startup
ORI doesn't have members. It is a research institute, has programs/projects. AMSAT is the main membership organization for the US for hams interested in amateur satellite service. ORI doesn't build spacecraft. It does technology development that can and should be considered for use by others for their spacecraft since it has the finest collection of amateur radio engineers gathered in one organization's projects I have seen in years.
This petty stupid bickering helps no one. I encourage people to look beyond crap posted here to see what ORI is doing.
Bob
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 10:56 PM Joseph Armbruster < josepharmbruster@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruce,
"The board can do whatever they want"...........
You are happily involved with the Open Research Institute, correct? Which is an "AMSAT Member Society". And, ORI according to its bylaws, basically only has members that are on its BOARD. (Here's a reference for the uninformed: ref: https://www.openresearch.institute/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/BYLAWS.doc)
AKA.... The Board can do whatever it wants....... sound familiar? (ref my initial line, or your short answer :-)
So, you are OK with organizations whose organizational fundamentals are ANTI-DEMOCRATIC in terms of having an open membership.... but burnt up over Rocking the Boat at AMSAT?!? (ref: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/unbelievable)
Joseph Armbruster KJ4JIO
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 10:37 PM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 6:45 PM Bob Liddy (K8BL) k8bl@ameritech.net
wrote:
I was just trying to understand if there was some line not to step over and what might happen if one did and if one could ever back up over that line and become OK again and why and when.
The short answer is "the board can do whatever they want". You don't
even get a vote, this time, since getting 10% of the membership to mail in paper objection in time, using the post office, was never possible.
The longer answer:
ar·bi·trary | \ ˈär-bə-ˌtrer-ē , -ˌtre-rē \ Definition of arbitrary 1a: existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a
capricious and unreasonable act of willan arbitrary choiceWhen a task is not seen in a meaningful context it is experienced as being arbitrary.— Nehemiah Jordanb: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of somethingan arbitrary standardtake any arbitrary positive number
2a: not restrained or limited in the exercise of power : ruling by
absolute authorityan arbitrary governmentb: marked by or resulting from the unrestrained and often tyrannical exercise of powerprotection from arbitrary arrest and detention
3law : depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed
by lawThe manner of punishment is arbitrary.
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at
https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at
Sent via AMSAT-BB(a)amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Acceptable Use and Privacy Policies available at https://www.amsat.org/about-amsat/
View archives of this mailing list at https://mailman.amsat.org/hyperkitty/list/amsat-bb@amsat.org To unsubscribe send an email to amsat-bb-leave(a)amsat.org Manage all of your AMSAT-NA mailing list preferences at https://mailman.amsat.org
A nonprofit can deny membership to malcontents. Just not violate federal statutes regarding discrimination.
Hmmm ... they might get together and claim “mental defect.” I’ll assist to fund that battle ...
I trust the current AMSAT board to “know” who is detrimental to the welfare of the organization.
Heck - maybe we can memorialize and name the new bylaw after them.
Clint Bradford K6LCS
I am not insulted by the fact I have to actually address an envelope and send a piece of mail to voice my concerns.
It feels like a responsible method of collecting valid inquiries.
Clint Bradford K6LCS
... Because the board doesn't want you to interfere with their addition of this rule, they have required that you register any objection to this, and other new rules, by writing a letter on paper and mailing it with a stamp.
participants (9)
-
Bob Liddy (K8BL) -
Bruce Perens -
Clint Bradford -
Joseph Armbruster -
Kevin Schuchmann -
Michael Sartoretti -
Robert McGwier -
Steve Kristoff -
Steve Rish