Re: [amsat-bb] APRS Satgate Antenna page (5/8 wave)
I have actually received APRS packets from the ISS and for that matter
have been digipeated using a simple 5/8 mag mount antenna oriented 90 degrees off vertical. I only mention that to offer some background.
Ah, but the ISS is 10W compared to PSAT’s 0.3W, so it is 15 dB stronger and any piece of wire as an antenna can hear ISS, even in the very strong NULL that a 5/8 wave antenna has above 15 degrees. All of my comments are trying to help SatGates hear the weak ones…
I'm not aware of how to forward anything useful to the database that
populates the map you provided a link to.
That is simple or hard. Depending on your patience with software. Any APRS software just about automatically becomes a SatGate if you leave your radio tuned to 145.825 and leave your PC running th software connected to the internet. Then your station feeds the pcsat.aprs.org satellite downlink data base.
Hope that helps.
Bob, WB4aPR
------------------------------ ------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Robert Bruninga [email protected]
*To:* [email protected]
*Sent:* Sunday, June 28, 2015 17:13
*Subject:* [amsat-bb] APRS Satgate Antenna page (More work needed)
Well, someone with time to burn might want to check all these numbers. Today I am getting inconsistent results and probably because to make a 9' ground plane at 2m with good segment sizes, I need more than the 500 point limit in EZNEC.
Also, to cover the USA with omni satgates with good gain above 25 degrees will need almost 9 times as many satgates compared to the number with full AZ/EL OSCAR arrays. But then the omni satgates are 10? Times simpler... (just your HT while you are not actually using it)...
At this point we need to simply see what a 1/4 wave over a large ground plane can actually HEAR. It is easy to just run it for days and see how many PSAT packets are received per 24 hours. And then compare antennas based on that number. If a 1/4 wave can hear down to 25 degrees, then there is no need for the higher 3/4 wave gain at higher angles. Anyway, a great opportunity for study.
-----Original Message----- The gain of the 3/4 wave vertical is a real winner over the basic 1/4 wave vertical for OMNI Satgates with no moving parts optimized for high elevation gain above 30 deg. Low elevations are simply covered by more SATgates.... New: If we can get the angle down to 25 degrees then still need 9 times more stations)
1/4 wave with radials: -2 at 30 and -6 at 60 ==> Basically a dipole pattern
3/4 wave with radials: +2 at 30 and -1 at 60 ==> 4 to 5 dB better, 2 dBi max 3/4 wave w 3' gndpln: +3 at 30 and +1 at 60 ==> 5 to 7 dB better, 3.3 dBi max 3/4 wave w 6' gndpln: +2 at 30 and +3 at 70 ==> 4 to 9 dB better, 5.5 dBi max 3/4 wave w 9' gndpln: +3 at 30 and +3 at 65 ==> 5 to 9 dB better, 5.3 dBi max 3/4 wave perfect gnd: +3 at 30 and +3 at 68 ==> 5 to 9 dB better, 6.9 dBi max
Even the 3/4 vertical with just the four 19" radials gives a huge 4 to 5 dB improvement over a classic ground plane for omni satellite SATgate work. Also, this antenna does not need to be high. Just see sky above 30 deg. In fact, is better to be low to reduce terrestrial QRM.
Notice too that the Lilenblatt, eggbeaters, and all other "omni"s that try to keep their gain down on the horizon, are equally as poor as the 1/4 wave vertical at these higher elevations. This is OK for strong satellits like the ISS with 5 to 10 watts, but abisimal when all that gain on the horizon is completely wasted when you cannot hear the satellite anyway because it is 6 to 10 dB farther away! The result is these "omni's" give up the 4 to 9 dB at higher elevations where the satellite is much stronger.
Ill eventually put all this on the Omni SATGATE page: http://aprs.org/aprs-satellite-igate-antennas.html
Summary: The 3/4 wave vertical makes it so you CAN hear LEO satellites 5 to 9 dB better when they are closer and does this by giving up on hearing them when they are so far away you can't hear them anyway!
THE BIG QUESTION though is What is the lowest elevation angle at which an OMNI can hear PSAT?
Bob, WB4APR
-----Original Message----- From: Robert Bruninga [mailto:[email protected] [email protected]] Subject: RE: [aprssig] APRS Satgate Antenna page
One question,what constitutes a large ground plane? Is it 12"or 12'? Is it a multiple of the vertical whip?
Good question. Most people think that four 1/4 wave radials make a ground plane. But if you model a 1/4 wave vertical over 1/4 wave radials, all you get is the exact pattern of a DIPOLE. The radials are just providing a "groundplane" to complete the electrical part of the antenna and give a good match. They do not affect the pattern at all.
I modeled verticals over 6' or larger ground planes and only found that you get the added "reflection" gain when the ground plane starts getting that big or more. I wish I had time to use EZNEC to show the added gain (skyward) versus the size of the ground plane. And how "radials" (above actual ground) have nothing to do with the "pattern".
SO, the bigger the better. It should be worth 2 to 3 dB if you could make it very large...
This is the page in question: http://aprs.org/aprs-satellite-igate-antennas.html
Bob, WB4aPR
On 6/19/2015 3:57 PM, Robert Bruninga via aprssig wrote:
Subject: APRS Satgate Antenna page
Since the ideal APRS Satellite IGate OMNI antenna is exactly the opposite of the typical terrestrial IGaate antenna, I prepared the following WEB page:
http://aprs.org/aprs-satellite-igate-antennas.html
It shows how a vertical ¼ or ¾ wave VHF omni equals the performance of a full OSCAR class array (over half the sky) but does it with no moving parts. It makes up for the weak-signal horizon part of the sky by there simply being more omni-IGates. The APRS-IS cloud with all of its IGates is probably one of the largest spatially distributed satellite receiver system in the world (?).
But with people used to the 10W transmitter on the ISS, just a few IGates can capture just about every packet from the ISS horizon to horizon on a whip. But with the 14 dB weaker signal from PSAT, we need more SatGates to make up for their smaller skyprint. For the USA we need more than a dozen such Omni-SATgates.
To see the significance of the weaker downlink from PSAT, look at the successful IGates on the http://pcsat.aprs.org page compared to the IGates that hear the ISS packets on http://ariss.net Both are listening on 145.825 and passing along every packet they hear. But only TRACKING IGates or good vertical gain satgates hear PSAT. And since we want these running 24/7/365, we do NOT expect people wearing out motors when an omni will do fine (if we have enough).
The page also shows how every SATgate with a HIGH and terrestrial type antenna actually creates a DEADZONE around it, effectively blocking any nearby user heaerd direct from appearing on any of the APRS-IS cloud satellite web pages. Hence, Omni-satgate antennas should be low to everything surrounding it w hile still seeing the sky above 30 degrees.
If your TH-D7 HT is just sitting there, not in use 99% of the time, then just hook it to a vertical whip and let it be an IGate. With the low antenna it will also probably be safe from all weather lightening too. Put the UHF side on 435.350 and turn up the speaker. When PSAT PSK31 comes into view, you can watch the PSK31 activity as a bonus!
Bob, WB4APR _______________________________________________ aprssig mailing list [email protected] http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig
_______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Any APRS software just about automatically becomes a SatGate > if you leave your radio tuned to 145.825 and leave your PC running > the software connected to the internet. Then your station feeds the > pcsat.aprs.org satellite downlink data base.
Bob, Can you elaborate on this? I've looked over the UISS docs and I see absolutely nothing about this function. To what web address is this data being sent? In what form? What control does the user have over this?-- Mark D. Johns, KØMDJDecorah, Iowa USA EN43----------------------------------------------- "Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." ---Mark Twain From: Robert Bruninga [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2015 8:54 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] APRS Satgate Antenna page (5/8 wave)
I have actually received APRS packets from the ISS and for that matter
have been digipeated using a simple 5/8 mag mount antenna oriented 90 degrees off vertical. I only mention that to offer some background.
Ah, but the ISS is 10W compared to PSAT’s 0.3W, so it is 15 dB stronger and any piece of wire as an antenna can hear ISS, even in the very strong NULL that a 5/8 wave antenna has above 15 degrees. All of my comments are trying to help SatGates hear the weak ones…
I'm not aware of how to forward anything useful to the database that
populates the map you provided a link to.
That is simple or hard. Depending on your patience with software. Any APRS software just about automatically becomes a SatGate if you leave your radio tuned to 145.825 and leave your PC running th software connected to the internet. Then your station feeds the pcsat.aprs.org satellite downlink data base.
Hope that helps.
Bob, WB4aPR
------------------------------ ------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Robert Bruninga [email protected]
*To:* [email protected]
*Sent:* Sunday, June 28, 2015 17:13
*Subject:* [amsat-bb] APRS Satgate Antenna page (More work needed)
Well, someone with time to burn might want to check all these numbers. Today I am getting inconsistent results and probably because to make a 9' ground plane at 2m with good segment sizes, I need more than the 500 point limit in EZNEC.
Also, to cover the USA with omni satgates with good gain above 25 degrees will need almost 9 times as many satgates compared to the number with full AZ/EL OSCAR arrays. But then the omni satgates are 10? Times simpler... (just your HT while you are not actually using it)...
At this point we need to simply see what a 1/4 wave over a large ground plane can actually HEAR. It is easy to just run it for days and see how many PSAT packets are received per 24 hours. And then compare antennas based on that number. If a 1/4 wave can hear down to 25 degrees, then there is no need for the higher 3/4 wave gain at higher angles. Anyway, a great opportunity for study.
-----Original Message----- The gain of the 3/4 wave vertical is a real winner over the basic 1/4 wave vertical for OMNI Satgates with no moving parts optimized for high elevation gain above 30 deg. Low elevations are simply covered by more SATgates.... New: If we can get the angle down to 25 degrees then still need 9 times more stations)
1/4 wave with radials: -2 at 30 and -6 at 60 ==> Basically a dipole pattern
3/4 wave with radials: +2 at 30 and -1 at 60 ==> 4 to 5 dB better, 2 dBi max 3/4 wave w 3' gndpln: +3 at 30 and +1 at 60 ==> 5 to 7 dB better, 3.3 dBi max 3/4 wave w 6' gndpln: +2 at 30 and +3 at 70 ==> 4 to 9 dB better, 5.5 dBi max 3/4 wave w 9' gndpln: +3 at 30 and +3 at 65 ==> 5 to 9 dB better, 5.3 dBi max 3/4 wave perfect gnd: +3 at 30 and +3 at 68 ==> 5 to 9 dB better, 6.9 dBi max
Even the 3/4 vertical with just the four 19" radials gives a huge 4 to 5 dB improvement over a classic ground plane for omni satellite SATgate work. Also, this antenna does not need to be high. Just see sky above 30 deg. In fact, is better to be low to reduce terrestrial QRM.
Notice too that the Lilenblatt, eggbeaters, and all other "omni"s that try to keep their gain down on the horizon, are equally as poor as the 1/4 wave vertical at these higher elevations. This is OK for strong satellits like the ISS with 5 to 10 watts, but abisimal when all that gain on the horizon is completely wasted when you cannot hear the satellite anyway because it is 6 to 10 dB farther away! The result is these "omni's" give up the 4 to 9 dB at higher elevations where the satellite is much stronger.
Ill eventually put all this on the Omni SATGATE page: http://aprs.org/aprs-satellite-igate-antennas.html
Summary: The 3/4 wave vertical makes it so you CAN hear LEO satellites 5 to 9 dB better when they are closer and does this by giving up on hearing them when they are so far away you can't hear them anyway!
THE BIG QUESTION though is What is the lowest elevation angle at which an OMNI can hear PSAT?
Bob, WB4APR
-----Original Message----- From: Robert Bruninga [mailto:[email protected] [email protected]] Subject: RE: [aprssig] APRS Satgate Antenna page
One question,what constitutes a large ground plane? Is it 12"or 12'? Is it a multiple of the vertical whip?
Good question. Most people think that four 1/4 wave radials make a ground plane. But if you model a 1/4 wave vertical over 1/4 wave radials, all you get is the exact pattern of a DIPOLE. The radials are just providing a "groundplane" to complete the electrical part of the antenna and give a good match. They do not affect the pattern at all.
I modeled verticals over 6' or larger ground planes and only found that you get the added "reflection" gain when the ground plane starts getting that big or more. I wish I had time to use EZNEC to show the added gain (skyward) versus the size of the ground plane. And how "radials" (above actual ground) have nothing to do with the "pattern".
SO, the bigger the better. It should be worth 2 to 3 dB if you could make it very large...
This is the page in question: http://aprs.org/aprs-satellite-igate-antennas.html
Bob, WB4aPR
On 6/19/2015 3:57 PM, Robert Bruninga via aprssig wrote:
Subject: APRS Satgate Antenna page
Since the ideal APRS Satellite IGate OMNI antenna is exactly the opposite of the typical terrestrial IGaate antenna, I prepared the following WEB page:
http://aprs.org/aprs-satellite-igate-antennas.html
It shows how a vertical ¼ or ¾ wave VHF omni equals the performance of a full OSCAR class array (over half the sky) but does it with no moving parts. It makes up for the weak-signal horizon part of the sky by there simply being more omni-IGates. The APRS-IS cloud with all of its IGates is probably one of the largest spatially distributed satellite receiver system in the world (?).
But with people used to the 10W transmitter on the ISS, just a few IGates can capture just about every packet from the ISS horizon to horizon on a whip. But with the 14 dB weaker signal from PSAT, we need more SatGates to make up for their smaller skyprint. For the USA we need more than a dozen such Omni-SATgates.
To see the significance of the weaker downlink from PSAT, look at the successful IGates on the http://pcsat.aprs.org page compared to the IGates that hear the ISS packets on http://ariss.net Both are listening on 145.825 and passing along every packet they hear. But only TRACKING IGates or good vertical gain satgates hear PSAT. And since we want these running 24/7/365, we do NOT expect people wearing out motors when an omni will do fine (if we have enough).
The page also shows how every SATgate with a HIGH and terrestrial type antenna actually creates a DEADZONE around it, effectively blocking any nearby user heaerd direct from appearing on any of the APRS-IS cloud satellite web pages. Hence, Omni-satgate antennas should be low to everything surrounding it w hile still seeing the sky above 30 degrees.
If your TH-D7 HT is just sitting there, not in use 99% of the time, then just hook it to a vertical whip and let it be an IGate. With the low antenna it will also probably be safe from all weather lightening too. Put the UHF side on 435.350 and turn up the speaker. When PSAT PSK31 comes into view, you can watch the PSK31 activity as a bonus!
Bob, WB4APR _______________________________________________ aprssig mailing list [email protected] http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig
_______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Mark,
UISS has a Satgate add on module to gate packets like Bob is talking about.
http://users.belgacom.net/hamradio/uissmodules.htm
Dave-KB1PVH
Sent from my Samsung S4
participants (3)
-
Dave Webb KB1PVH -
Mark Johns -
Robert Bruninga