Hard times for satellite radio buyers?
Hello all,
Is it not hard times for new and prospective satellite operators (like me) in terms of equipment choices, at least in terms of the "big three"? (And, to be clear, I'm talking about current, in-production models only.)
I'm looking for an HF base/mobile radio, and also a VHF/UHF-only all-mode base/mobile radio that I can use for the linear satellites but - wait - there are no VHF/UHF-only all mode radios! That means I need to buy a "shack in a box" but - wait - there are only two choices (at what I will call moderate prices), the ancient TS-2000 and equally ancient FT-857D. There is the new and somewhat more expensive FT-991A and, although that sounds like a very good radio, for HF at that price point I might prefer the IC-7300 but that would mean no satellite work.
I'm also looking for a portable HF QRP radio, and a portable radio I can use for the linear satellites. Again the venerable but ancient FT-817ND is pretty much the only game in town. As with the HF base radios above, if I am only interested in HF QRP I would probably rather put my money toward a KX2 or KX3 of newer design but, again, that would mean no satellite work.
So as a new operator, to get into linear satellites it seems I am forced to either (1) troll the swap meets for ancient gear; (2) buy new gear of old design (which in my mind is even worse); or (3) buy new gear of modern design that works for satellite and HF, but is not necessarily the radio I would choose for HF alone.
I should add that the situation is not much better for HT/mobile radios for the FM satellites, but at least there are some cost effective workarounds including the less expensive Baofeng/Wouxun/Tytera radios and their clones.
Thanks for indulging my shopping frustrations, and my inexperience, but I have to think there are others new to the hobby that are having similar thoughts. Do Amsat members see this as a problem?
Probably off to spend some new money on an old radio...
73 - Ken - VA7KBM
On 2017-03-19 1:53 AM, Ken M wrote:
Thanks for indulging my shopping frustrations, and my inexperience, but I have to think there are others new to the hobby that are having similar thoughts. Do Amsat members see this as a problem?
Well Ken I am of the same thinking but a bit different. I have an old 970 and it works great for the birds, but like to do some EME as well at 23cm. The field is like you say do it all or nothing. The 9100 is nice but has HF in it. and looks real small sitting next to my 7700 HF rig.
I bet the next rigs will be SDR driven and the size of your phone........
Hi Ken,
Welcome, and glad you've found fascination with the Amateur Satellites
Theres always the opportunity to acquire gear from a fellow satellite enthusiast which you can inquire with folks here on the BB (I've got no surplus gear right now)
Check out how many all mode rigs are available if you recognize them, they're often inexpensive if you find them on a hamfest table:
http://www.rigpix.com/index.shtml
There's lots of fun to be had on the satellites, I look forward to hearing you on the air !
(BTW, even the most modern gear by any definition can only make "Ancient SSB" sound so good)
Mike W4UOO
On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Bill Booth [email protected] wrote:
On 2017-03-19 1:53 AM, Ken M wrote:
Thanks for indulging my shopping frustrations, and my inexperience, but I have to think there are others new to the hobby that are having similar thoughts. Do Amsat members see this as a problem?
Well Ken I am of the same thinking but a bit different. I have an old 970 and it works great for the birds, but like to do some EME as well at 23cm. The field is like you say do it all or nothing. The 9100 is nice but has HF in it. and looks real small sitting next to my 7700 HF rig.
I bet the next rigs will be SDR driven and the size of your phone........
-- Bill Booth VE3NXK Sundridge ON, Canada 79.23.37 W x 45.46.18 N FN05ns
Visit my weather WebCam at http://www.almaguin.com/wxcurrent/weather.html
Organ and Tissue Donation - The Gift of Life Talk to your family. Your decision can make a difference.
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
One thing I always try to do when I'm at a hamfest and a manufacturer is present is to mention the features I want on a radio. In my experience I have found that that they will listen when I say that I want a 2m/70cm full duplex SSB radio, and often say that they have heard other operators say that they want those features. But when I mention the word "satellite" they immediately brush me off by saying that it is just a niche area of the hobby.
I always encourage hams to voice their frustrations with the manufacturers in not being able to find a radio today that will really do what we need. If everyone continues to bug them at places like Dayton perhaps one day at least one manufacturer will listen and help us.
Steve May, W5IEM Amateur Extra - Georgetown, KY (520) 261-7847 - Cell Skype: USHorseman [email protected]
*This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any retention, dissemination, distribution, or copying the communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the email along with any and all attachments from your system*
On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Mike Sprenger [email protected] wrote:
Hi Ken,
Welcome, and glad you've found fascination with the Amateur Satellites
Theres always the opportunity to acquire gear from a fellow satellite enthusiast which you can inquire with folks here on the BB (I've got no surplus gear right now)
Check out how many all mode rigs are available if you recognize them, they're often inexpensive if you find them on a hamfest table:
http://www.rigpix.com/index.shtml
There's lots of fun to be had on the satellites, I look forward to hearing you on the air !
(BTW, even the most modern gear by any definition can only make "Ancient SSB" sound so good)
Mike W4UOO
On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Bill Booth [email protected] wrote:
On 2017-03-19 1:53 AM, Ken M wrote:
Thanks for indulging my shopping frustrations, and my inexperience, but I have to think there are others new to the hobby that are having similar thoughts. Do Amsat members see this as a problem?
Well Ken I am of the same thinking but a bit different. I have an old
970
and it works great for the birds, but like to do some EME as well at
23cm.
The field is like you say do it all or nothing. The 9100 is nice but has HF in it. and looks real small sitting next to my 7700 HF rig.
I bet the next rigs will be SDR driven and the size of your phone........
-- Bill Booth VE3NXK Sundridge ON, Canada 79.23.37 W x 45.46.18 N FN05ns
Visit my weather WebCam at http://www.almaguin.com/
wxcurrent/weather.html
Organ and Tissue Donation - The Gift of Life Talk to your family. Your decision can make a difference.
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
-- Thanks, Mike Sprenger (37.9167N 81.1244W is the Summit) _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
It's problematic now to be sure. You buy old or you buy the THD-72 from Kenwood.
But the "big three" are going to be ignored in the end. They don't support us now and the future will be twenty dollar modules from Amazon plugged together with a Raspberry Pi to give us the sort of functionality we need to work future payloads.
Perhaps they understand that and have written this facet of the hobby off entirely?
73, Jeff KE9V
On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Mike Sprenger [email protected] wrote:
Hi Ken,
Welcome, and glad you've found fascination with the Amateur Satellites
Theres always the opportunity to acquire gear from a fellow satellite enthusiast which you can inquire with folks here on the BB (I've got no surplus gear right now)
Check out how many all mode rigs are available if you recognize them, they're often inexpensive if you find them on a hamfest table:
http://www.rigpix.com/index.shtml
There's lots of fun to be had on the satellites, I look forward to hearing you on the air !
(BTW, even the most modern gear by any definition can only make "Ancient SSB" sound so good)
Mike W4UOO
On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Bill Booth [email protected] wrote:
On 2017-03-19 1:53 AM, Ken M wrote:
Thanks for indulging my shopping frustrations, and my inexperience, but I have to think there are others new to the hobby that are having similar thoughts. Do Amsat members see this as a problem?
Well Ken I am of the same thinking but a bit different. I have an old
970
and it works great for the birds, but like to do some EME as well at
23cm.
The field is like you say do it all or nothing. The 9100 is nice but has HF in it. and looks real small sitting next to my 7700 HF rig.
I bet the next rigs will be SDR driven and the size of your phone........
-- Bill Booth VE3NXK Sundridge ON, Canada 79.23.37 W x 45.46.18 N FN05ns
Visit my weather WebCam at http://www.almaguin.com/
wxcurrent/weather.html
Organ and Tissue Donation - The Gift of Life Talk to your family. Your decision can make a difference.
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
-- Thanks, Mike Sprenger (37.9167N 81.1244W is the Summit) _______________________________________________ Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Let me add a vote of support to this idea. Like Steve, I have been talking with vendors for a while now, at places like Dayton. I have gone to my favorite company, ICOM, every year now and asked about all sorts of things like weak signal equipment, the lack of 222Mhz gear, lack of multi-band HTs like the ic-T81a, etc.
Only when politely pummelled with queries will they think about changing. I'm sure that the big three are very nervous about the future with Chinese companies making inroads with usually checp not great products, but if they don't don't offer what people want, they will die. It will be interesting to see what Chinese ham companies do in the future.
Lastly, try to influence American companies to make ham gear. I am thankful for Elecraft and Ten-Tec and hope there will be more. There should be. Not disparaging the kit-based SDR people--they're great but I think there is room for all.
--STeve Andre' wb8wsf en72
On 03/19/17 18:33, Steve May wrote:
One thing I always try to do when I'm at a hamfest and a manufacturer is present is to mention the features I want on a radio. In my experience I have found that that they will listen when I say that I want a 2m/70cm full duplex SSB radio, and often say that they have heard other operators say that they want those features. But when I mention the word "satellite" they immediately brush me off by saying that it is just a niche area of the hobby.
I always encourage hams to voice their frustrations with the manufacturers in not being able to find a radio today that will really do what we need. If everyone continues to bug them at places like Dayton perhaps one day at least one manufacturer will listen and help us.
Steve May, W5IEM Amateur Extra - Georgetown, KY (520) 261-7847 - Cell Skype: USHorseman [email protected]
*This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any retention, dissemination, distribution, or copying the communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the email along with any and all attachments from your system*
On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Mike Sprenger [email protected] wrote:
Hi Ken,
Welcome, and glad you've found fascination with the Amateur Satellites
Theres always the opportunity to acquire gear from a fellow satellite enthusiast which you can inquire with folks here on the BB (I've got no surplus gear right now)
Check out how many all mode rigs are available if you recognize them, they're often inexpensive if you find them on a hamfest table:
http://www.rigpix.com/index.shtml
There's lots of fun to be had on the satellites, I look forward to hearing you on the air !
(BTW, even the most modern gear by any definition can only make "Ancient SSB" sound so good)
Mike W4UOO
On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Bill Booth [email protected] wrote:
On 2017-03-19 1:53 AM, Ken M wrote:
Thanks for indulging my shopping frustrations, and my inexperience, but I have to think there are others new to the hobby that are having similar thoughts. Do Amsat members see this as a problem?
Well Ken I am of the same thinking but a bit different. I have an old
970
and it works great for the birds, but like to do some EME as well at
23cm.
The field is like you say do it all or nothing. The 9100 is nice but has HF in it. and looks real small sitting next to my 7700 HF rig.
I bet the next rigs will be SDR driven and the size of your phone........
-- Bill Booth VE3NXK Sundridge ON, Canada 79.23.37 W x 45.46.18 N FN05ns
Visit my weather WebCam at http://www.almaguin.com/
wxcurrent/weather.html
Organ and Tissue Donation - The Gift of Life Talk to your family. Your decision can make a difference.
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
-- Thanks, Mike Sprenger (37.9167N 81.1244W is the Summit)
Ken,
I too wish for a V/U purpose built rig and in particular a portable one. A rig with dual VFOs and full duplex capability. I don't see this type of rig offered from the "Big 3" anytime soon.
I think instead of everyone trying to get them on board, we should pursue the smaller manufacturers. I see these Xiegu HF rigs and they look pretty nice. My guess is a company like this has facilities to produce a nice, modern sat rig. Perhaps we should send our votes of support to a company that would cater to a niche market.
As far as ancient tech goes, I think it still works pretty good. Used two 817s to work Russia from a park in LA county about a week ago on AO-7, launched back in 1974. It's not the most ideal rig but it can still get the job done.
73's
Mike Diehl AI6GS
On Mar 18, 2017, at 10:53 PM, Ken M [email protected] wrote:
Hello all,
Is it not hard times for new and prospective satellite operators (like me) in terms of equipment choices, at least in terms of the "big three"? (And, to be clear, I'm talking about current, in-production models only.)
I'm looking for an HF base/mobile radio, and also a VHF/UHF-only all-mode base/mobile radio that I can use for the linear satellites but
- wait - there are no VHF/UHF-only all mode radios! That means I need to
buy a "shack in a box" but - wait - there are only two choices (at what I will call moderate prices), the ancient TS-2000 and equally ancient FT-857D. There is the new and somewhat more expensive FT-991A and, although that sounds like a very good radio, for HF at that price point I might prefer the IC-7300 but that would mean no satellite work.
I'm also looking for a portable HF QRP radio, and a portable radio I can use for the linear satellites. Again the venerable but ancient FT-817ND is pretty much the only game in town. As with the HF base radios above, if I am only interested in HF QRP I would probably rather put my money toward a KX2 or KX3 of newer design but, again, that would mean no satellite work.
So as a new operator, to get into linear satellites it seems I am forced to either (1) troll the swap meets for ancient gear; (2) buy new gear of old design (which in my mind is even worse); or (3) buy new gear of modern design that works for satellite and HF, but is not necessarily the radio I would choose for HF alone.
I should add that the situation is not much better for HT/mobile radios for the FM satellites, but at least there are some cost effective workarounds including the less expensive Baofeng/Wouxun/Tytera radios and their clones.
Thanks for indulging my shopping frustrations, and my inexperience, but I have to think there are others new to the hobby that are having similar thoughts. Do Amsat members see this as a problem?
Probably off to spend some new money on an old radio...
73 - Ken - VA7KBM
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Ettus B210. Tested with another radio as the uplink. Blasted away with 50 watts (accidentally) and the B210 didn't complain (or croak).
It has other advantages, as it's rx goes out to 6 GHz.
The amps/control hardware need way more testing before cabling all the stuff together and trying it out. Creating a smoking pile of junk makes me want to cry. No oopsies so far.
Computer control (using windowz) is a nightmare due to lack of support for the B210. Lots of promises. No one has delivered. There is a Linux solution. The dark side beckons.
Simple enough amplifier circuitry. Biggest wow was the amount of heat produced (wasted power). Fans, heat sinks, power supplies with regulation and filtering....
Test setup is runs from +24VDC battery stack (D cells) using surplus power bricks. Lots of documentation on how to make them RF quiet.
The down side of these bricks is that for them to meet spec, there must be a minimum load.
Currently portable with an 857d and an IC 7000.
The longer a product is produced, the more spare parts available and the better the support (most of the time). The 857d is a great radio. Strapping two together would make a great station. Much to be said for this approach.
Norm n3ykf
On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 1:33 AM, Mike Diehl [email protected] wrote:
Ken,
I too wish for a V/U purpose built rig and in particular a portable one. A rig with dual VFOs and full duplex capability. I don't see this type of rig offered from the "Big 3" anytime soon.
I think instead of everyone trying to get them on board, we should pursue the smaller manufacturers. I see these Xiegu HF rigs and they look pretty nice. My guess is a company like this has facilities to produce a nice, modern sat rig. Perhaps we should send our votes of support to a company that would cater to a niche market.
As far as ancient tech goes, I think it still works pretty good. Used two 817s to work Russia from a park in LA county about a week ago on AO-7, launched back in 1974. It's not the most ideal rig but it can still get the job done.
73's
Mike Diehl AI6GS
On Mar 18, 2017, at 10:53 PM, Ken M [email protected] wrote:
Hello all,
Is it not hard times for new and prospective satellite operators (like me) in terms of equipment choices, at least in terms of the "big three"? (And, to be clear, I'm talking about current, in-production models only.)
I'm looking for an HF base/mobile radio, and also a VHF/UHF-only all-mode base/mobile radio that I can use for the linear satellites but
- wait - there are no VHF/UHF-only all mode radios! That means I need to
buy a "shack in a box" but - wait - there are only two choices (at what I will call moderate prices), the ancient TS-2000 and equally ancient FT-857D. There is the new and somewhat more expensive FT-991A and, although that sounds like a very good radio, for HF at that price point I might prefer the IC-7300 but that would mean no satellite work.
I'm also looking for a portable HF QRP radio, and a portable radio I can use for the linear satellites. Again the venerable but ancient FT-817ND is pretty much the only game in town. As with the HF base radios above, if I am only interested in HF QRP I would probably rather put my money toward a KX2 or KX3 of newer design but, again, that would mean no satellite work.
So as a new operator, to get into linear satellites it seems I am forced to either (1) troll the swap meets for ancient gear; (2) buy new gear of old design (which in my mind is even worse); or (3) buy new gear of modern design that works for satellite and HF, but is not necessarily the radio I would choose for HF alone.
I should add that the situation is not much better for HT/mobile radios for the FM satellites, but at least there are some cost effective workarounds including the less expensive Baofeng/Wouxun/Tytera radios and their clones.
Thanks for indulging my shopping frustrations, and my inexperience, but I have to think there are others new to the hobby that are having similar thoughts. Do Amsat members see this as a problem?
Probably off to spend some new money on an old radio...
73 - Ken - VA7KBM
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
When you step back and look at the state of the satellite transceiver market, it's not all that different from the 1990s. The difference is that Yaesu doesn't produce one, otherwise each of the "Big 3" have only produced one model at a time. The other difference is that both the Icom IC-9100 and Kenwood TS-2000 are "shacks-in-a-box" which increases costs for those who already have or don't want HF capability. The TS-2000 is also lacking because of its birdie on the SO-50 downlink frequency which prevents me from ever recommending it.
The other downside is that both of those options are not exactly "field friendly." The Icom IC-820H, 821H, 910H, and Yaesu FT-847 are all small enough to be used in the field. Many have remarked that the Icom IC-910 and an Arrow antenna is the simplest and best performing portable satellite station available. These transceivers are not to difficult to find on the used market, but the prices can be a bit high owing to continued demand.
If you want to buy new equipment for the field, Norm's suggestion of two Yaesus is not a bad one. Dual FT-817s are very commonly used. NJ7H has used his "FT-1634" to activate 250 grids and 7 DXCCs on satellite over the past year. I use a "FT-1634" plus a small dual band amplifier (a Microset VUR-30) and preamps for a well performing portable setup. Others have used the "FT-1674" (a Yaesu FT-817 and FT-857 combo) with great results. The downside is that you often need filtering to eliminate desense between the two radios. A common diplexer such as those made by MFJ or Comet works for this purpose.
As suggested, the future lies in the SDR realm. At the present time, these solutions are not ideal for the field. Many have used SDRs such as a FUNcube Dongle or SDRPlay as their downlink receiver paired with an all-mode transceiver for the uplink. Properly configured, this can work very well, but use in the field can be difficult due to glare on laptop or tablet screens. Many have used this type of setup with great results in home stations. Another downside is SDR processing delay and its difficulties with full-duplex operation, but this can be mitigated with more efficient programming and/or more processing power.
When it comes to a full SDR transceiver setup, as Norm suggests, this is doable today. While Flex no longers offers the Flex 5000 and V/U modules, there are other options that could work quite well. The downside is that it is not "plug and play" at the moment, you need to add filtering and amplification to the available SDRs. I don't think any user friendly software exists at the moment either, but there is definitely an opportunity there.
The AMSAT Ground Terminal team is working on a full SDR based ground terminal for use with digital 5 GHz uplinks and 10 GHz downlinks, to be used with a number of future AMSAT satellite projects/payloads in GEO, HEO, and beyond.
When you consider all the options, there are likely more options for getting on the satellites today than have existed in the past. There might not be as many plug and play boxes available from major manufacturers, but there are lots of ways to build a ground station for home or field use, and ways to do that to meet almost any budget.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 03:20 Norm n3ykf [email protected] wrote:
Ettus B210. Tested with another radio as the uplink. Blasted away with 50 watts (accidentally) and the B210 didn't complain (or croak).
It has other advantages, as it's rx goes out to 6 GHz.
The amps/control hardware need way more testing before cabling all the stuff together and trying it out. Creating a smoking pile of junk makes me want to cry. No oopsies so far.
Computer control (using windowz) is a nightmare due to lack of support for the B210. Lots of promises. No one has delivered. There is a Linux solution. The dark side beckons.
Simple enough amplifier circuitry. Biggest wow was the amount of heat produced (wasted power). Fans, heat sinks, power supplies with regulation and filtering....
Test setup is runs from +24VDC battery stack (D cells) using surplus power bricks. Lots of documentation on how to make them RF quiet.
The down side of these bricks is that for them to meet spec, there must be a minimum load.
Currently portable with an 857d and an IC 7000.
The longer a product is produced, the more spare parts available and the better the support (most of the time). The 857d is a great radio. Strapping two together would make a great station. Much to be said for this approach.
Norm n3ykf
On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 1:33 AM, Mike Diehl [email protected] wrote:
Ken,
I too wish for a V/U purpose built rig and in particular a portable one.
A rig with dual VFOs and full duplex capability. I don't see this type of rig offered from the "Big 3" anytime soon.
I think instead of everyone trying to get them on board, we should
pursue the smaller manufacturers. I see these Xiegu HF rigs and they look pretty nice. My guess is a company like this has facilities to produce a nice, modern sat rig. Perhaps we should send our votes of support to a company that would cater to a niche market.
As far as ancient tech goes, I think it still works pretty good. Used
two 817s to work Russia from a park in LA county about a week ago on AO-7, launched back in 1974. It's not the most ideal rig but it can still get the job done.
73's
Mike Diehl AI6GS
On Mar 18, 2017, at 10:53 PM, Ken M [email protected] wrote:
Hello all,
Is it not hard times for new and prospective satellite operators (like me) in terms of equipment choices, at least in terms of the "big three"? (And, to be clear, I'm talking about current, in-production models
only.)
I'm looking for an HF base/mobile radio, and also a VHF/UHF-only all-mode base/mobile radio that I can use for the linear satellites but
- wait - there are no VHF/UHF-only all mode radios! That means I need to
buy a "shack in a box" but - wait - there are only two choices (at what I will call moderate prices), the ancient TS-2000 and equally ancient FT-857D. There is the new and somewhat more expensive FT-991A and, although that sounds like a very good radio, for HF at that price point I might prefer the IC-7300 but that would mean no satellite work.
I'm also looking for a portable HF QRP radio, and a portable radio I can use for the linear satellites. Again the venerable but ancient FT-817ND is pretty much the only game in town. As with the HF base radios above, if I am only interested in HF QRP I would probably rather put my money toward a KX2 or KX3 of newer design but, again, that would mean no satellite work.
So as a new operator, to get into linear satellites it seems I am forced to either (1) troll the swap meets for ancient gear; (2) buy new gear of old design (which in my mind is even worse); or (3) buy new gear of modern design that works for satellite and HF, but is not necessarily the radio I would choose for HF alone.
I should add that the situation is not much better for HT/mobile radios for the FM satellites, but at least there are some cost effective workarounds including the less expensive Baofeng/Wouxun/Tytera radios and their clones.
Thanks for indulging my shopping frustrations, and my inexperience, but I have to think there are others new to the hobby that are having similar thoughts. Do Amsat members see this as a problem?
Probably off to spend some new money on an old radio...
73 - Ken - VA7KBM
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via [email protected]. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
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Talk to the guys at Flex :)
They are participating in the Phase 4 ground station work and they know who we are.
Then again, they know who we are (grin)
Thanks, Mike W4UOO
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 20, 2017, at 8:11 AM, Paul Stoetzer [email protected] wrote:
When you step back and look at the state of the satellite transceiver market, it's not all that different from the 1990s. The difference is that Yaesu doesn't produce one, otherwise each of the "Big 3" have only produced one model at a time. The other difference is that both the Icom IC-9100 and Kenwood TS-2000 are "shacks-in-a-box" which increases costs for those who already have or don't want HF capability. The TS-2000 is also lacking because of its birdie on the SO-50 downlink frequency which prevents me from ever recommending it.
The other downside is that both of those options are not exactly "field friendly." The Icom IC-820H, 821H, 910H, and Yaesu FT-847 are all small enough to be used in the field. Many have remarked that the Icom IC-910 and an Arrow antenna is the simplest and best performing portable satellite station available. These transceivers are not to difficult to find on the used market, but the prices can be a bit high owing to continued demand.
If you want to buy new equipment for the field, Norm's suggestion of two Yaesus is not a bad one. Dual FT-817s are very commonly used. NJ7H has used his "FT-1634" to activate 250 grids and 7 DXCCs on satellite over the past year. I use a "FT-1634" plus a small dual band amplifier (a Microset VUR-30) and preamps for a well performing portable setup. Others have used the "FT-1674" (a Yaesu FT-817 and FT-857 combo) with great results. The downside is that you often need filtering to eliminate desense between the two radios. A common diplexer such as those made by MFJ or Comet works for this purpose.
As suggested, the future lies in the SDR realm. At the present time, these solutions are not ideal for the field. Many have used SDRs such as a FUNcube Dongle or SDRPlay as their downlink receiver paired with an all-mode transceiver for the uplink. Properly configured, this can work very well, but use in the field can be difficult due to glare on laptop or tablet screens. Many have used this type of setup with great results in home stations. Another downside is SDR processing delay and its difficulties with full-duplex operation, but this can be mitigated with more efficient programming and/or more processing power.
When it comes to a full SDR transceiver setup, as Norm suggests, this is doable today. While Flex no longers offers the Flex 5000 and V/U modules, there are other options that could work quite well. The downside is that it is not "plug and play" at the moment, you need to add filtering and amplification to the available SDRs. I don't think any user friendly software exists at the moment either, but there is definitely an opportunity there.
The AMSAT Ground Terminal team is working on a full SDR based ground terminal for use with digital 5 GHz uplinks and 10 GHz downlinks, to be used with a number of future AMSAT satellite projects/payloads in GEO, HEO, and beyond.
When you consider all the options, there are likely more options for getting on the satellites today than have existed in the past. There might not be as many plug and play boxes available from major manufacturers, but there are lots of ways to build a ground station for home or field use, and ways to do that to meet almost any budget.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 03:20 Norm n3ykf [email protected] wrote:
Ettus B210. Tested with another radio as the uplink. Blasted away with 50 watts (accidentally) and the B210 didn't complain (or croak).
It has other advantages, as it's rx goes out to 6 GHz.
The amps/control hardware need way more testing before cabling all the stuff together and trying it out. Creating a smoking pile of junk makes me want to cry. No oopsies so far.
Computer control (using windowz) is a nightmare due to lack of support for the B210. Lots of promises. No one has delivered. There is a Linux solution. The dark side beckons.
Simple enough amplifier circuitry. Biggest wow was the amount of heat produced (wasted power). Fans, heat sinks, power supplies with regulation and filtering....
Test setup is runs from +24VDC battery stack (D cells) using surplus power bricks. Lots of documentation on how to make them RF quiet.
The down side of these bricks is that for them to meet spec, there must be a minimum load.
Currently portable with an 857d and an IC 7000.
The longer a product is produced, the more spare parts available and the better the support (most of the time). The 857d is a great radio. Strapping two together would make a great station. Much to be said for this approach.
Norm n3ykf
On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 1:33 AM, Mike Diehl [email protected] wrote:
Ken,
I too wish for a V/U purpose built rig and in particular a portable one.
A rig with dual VFOs and full duplex capability. I don't see this type of rig offered from the "Big 3" anytime soon.
I think instead of everyone trying to get them on board, we should
pursue the smaller manufacturers. I see these Xiegu HF rigs and they look pretty nice. My guess is a company like this has facilities to produce a nice, modern sat rig. Perhaps we should send our votes of support to a company that would cater to a niche market.
As far as ancient tech goes, I think it still works pretty good. Used
two 817s to work Russia from a park in LA county about a week ago on AO-7, launched back in 1974. It's not the most ideal rig but it can still get the job done.
73's
Mike Diehl AI6GS
On Mar 18, 2017, at 10:53 PM, Ken M [email protected] wrote:
Hello all,
Is it not hard times for new and prospective satellite operators (like me) in terms of equipment choices, at least in terms of the "big three"? (And, to be clear, I'm talking about current, in-production models
only.)
I'm looking for an HF base/mobile radio, and also a VHF/UHF-only all-mode base/mobile radio that I can use for the linear satellites but
- wait - there are no VHF/UHF-only all mode radios! That means I need to
buy a "shack in a box" but - wait - there are only two choices (at what I will call moderate prices), the ancient TS-2000 and equally ancient FT-857D. There is the new and somewhat more expensive FT-991A and, although that sounds like a very good radio, for HF at that price point I might prefer the IC-7300 but that would mean no satellite work.
I'm also looking for a portable HF QRP radio, and a portable radio I can use for the linear satellites. Again the venerable but ancient FT-817ND is pretty much the only game in town. As with the HF base radios above, if I am only interested in HF QRP I would probably rather put my money toward a KX2 or KX3 of newer design but, again, that would mean no satellite work.
So as a new operator, to get into linear satellites it seems I am forced to either (1) troll the swap meets for ancient gear; (2) buy new gear of old design (which in my mind is even worse); or (3) buy new gear of modern design that works for satellite and HF, but is not necessarily the radio I would choose for HF alone.
I should add that the situation is not much better for HT/mobile radios for the FM satellites, but at least there are some cost effective workarounds including the less expensive Baofeng/Wouxun/Tytera radios and their clones.
Thanks for indulging my shopping frustrations, and my inexperience, but I have to think there are others new to the hobby that are having similar thoughts. Do Amsat members see this as a problem?
Probably off to spend some new money on an old radio...
73 - Ken - VA7KBM
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AMSAT-NA.
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Hello all,
Thanks for all the helpful comments on my earlier post!
Several folks mentioned the IC-9100 which looks like an excellent radio. I left it off my list only because of the higher price-point which makes it less approachable for some. Likewise with Flex. I wonder if ICOM will offer some deals on the IC-9100 soon, when the IC-7610 comes out? It seems they will compete at the same price point.
The points on SDR as the future are well-taken, but sometimes it's nice to simply turn on a device and just have work, without fussing about with computers and software (and I'm an IT guy, which is perhaps all the more reason I think that way). I look forward to acquiring that elusive VHF/UHF all-mode radio (even if it is an "ancient" one). ;-)
Thanks again & 73 Ken - VA7KBM
On 2017-03-18 10:53 PM, Ken M wrote:
Hello all,
Is it not hard times for new and prospective satellite operators (like me) in terms of equipment choices, at least in terms of the "big three"? (And, to be clear, I'm talking about current, in-production models only.)
I'm looking for an HF base/mobile radio, and also a VHF/UHF-only all-mode base/mobile radio that I can use for the linear satellites but - wait - there are no VHF/UHF-only all mode radios! That means I need to buy a "shack in a box" but - wait - there are only two choices (at what I will call moderate prices), the ancient TS-2000 and equally ancient FT-857D. There is the new and somewhat more expensive FT-991A and, although that sounds like a very good radio, for HF at that price point I might prefer the IC-7300 but that would mean no satellite work.
I'm also looking for a portable HF QRP radio, and a portable radio I can use for the linear satellites. Again the venerable but ancient FT-817ND is pretty much the only game in town. As with the HF base radios above, if I am only interested in HF QRP I would probably rather put my money toward a KX2 or KX3 of newer design but, again, that would mean no satellite work.
So as a new operator, to get into linear satellites it seems I am forced to either (1) troll the swap meets for ancient gear; (2) buy new gear of old design (which in my mind is even worse); or (3) buy new gear of modern design that works for satellite and HF, but is not necessarily the radio I would choose for HF alone.
I should add that the situation is not much better for HT/mobile radios for the FM satellites, but at least there are some cost effective workarounds including the less expensive Baofeng/Wouxun/Tytera radios and their clones.
Thanks for indulging my shopping frustrations, and my inexperience, but I have to think there are others new to the hobby that are having similar thoughts. Do Amsat members see this as a problem?
Probably off to spend some new money on an old radio...
73 - Ken - VA7KBM
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Maybe the new radios of old design are still on the market because there is nothing wrong with their design and they still work well. Newer doesn't always mean better.
73 John AF5CC
On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Ken M [email protected] wrote:
Hello all,
Thanks for all the helpful comments on my earlier post!
Several folks mentioned the IC-9100 which looks like an excellent radio. I left it off my list only because of the higher price-point which makes it less approachable for some. Likewise with Flex. I wonder if ICOM will offer some deals on the IC-9100 soon, when the IC-7610 comes out? It seems they will compete at the same price point.
The points on SDR as the future are well-taken, but sometimes it's nice to simply turn on a device and just have work, without fussing about with computers and software (and I'm an IT guy, which is perhaps all the more reason I think that way). I look forward to acquiring that elusive VHF/UHF all-mode radio (even if it is an "ancient" one). ;-)
Thanks again & 73 Ken - VA7KBM
On 2017-03-18 10:53 PM, Ken M wrote:
Hello all,
Is it not hard times for new and prospective satellite operators (like me) in terms of equipment choices, at least in terms of the "big three"? (And, to be clear, I'm talking about current, in-production models only.)
I'm looking for an HF base/mobile radio, and also a VHF/UHF-only all-mode base/mobile radio that I can use for the linear satellites but
- wait - there are no VHF/UHF-only all mode radios! That means I need to
buy a "shack in a box" but - wait - there are only two choices (at what I will call moderate prices), the ancient TS-2000 and equally ancient FT-857D. There is the new and somewhat more expensive FT-991A and, although that sounds like a very good radio, for HF at that price point I might prefer the IC-7300 but that would mean no satellite work.
I'm also looking for a portable HF QRP radio, and a portable radio I can use for the linear satellites. Again the venerable but ancient FT-817ND is pretty much the only game in town. As with the HF base radios above, if I am only interested in HF QRP I would probably rather put my money toward a KX2 or KX3 of newer design but, again, that would mean no satellite work.
So as a new operator, to get into linear satellites it seems I am forced to either (1) troll the swap meets for ancient gear; (2) buy new gear of old design (which in my mind is even worse); or (3) buy new gear of modern design that works for satellite and HF, but is not necessarily the radio I would choose for HF alone.
I should add that the situation is not much better for HT/mobile radios for the FM satellites, but at least there are some cost effective workarounds including the less expensive Baofeng/Wouxun/Tytera radios and their clones.
Thanks for indulging my shopping frustrations, and my inexperience, but I have to think there are others new to the hobby that are having similar thoughts. Do Amsat members see this as a problem?
Probably off to spend some new money on an old radio...
73 - Ken - VA7KBM
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This is the correct state of play in my opinion.
RFIC's are making every band from 50 MHz - 6 GHz commodity priced and capable of supporting narrow band analog modes through 25 MHz wide digital waveforms. This is the future because people want more for the less money.
Bob
On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 7:53 PM, Jeff Davis [email protected] wrote:
It's problematic now to be sure. You buy old or you buy the THD-72 from Kenwood.
But the "big three" are going to be ignored in the end. They don't support us now and the future will be twenty dollar modules from Amazon plugged together with a Raspberry Pi to give us the sort of functionality we need to work future payloads.
Perhaps they understand that and have written this facet of the hobby off entirely?
73, Jeff KE9V
On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Mike Sprenger [email protected] wrote:
Hi Ken,
Welcome, and glad you've found fascination with the Amateur Satellites
Theres always the opportunity to acquire gear from a fellow satellite enthusiast which you can inquire with folks here on the BB (I've got no surplus gear right now)
Check out how many all mode rigs are available if you recognize them, they're often inexpensive if you find them on a hamfest table:
http://www.rigpix.com/index.shtml
There's lots of fun to be had on the satellites, I look forward to
hearing
you on the air !
(BTW, even the most modern gear by any definition can only make "Ancient SSB" sound so good)
Mike W4UOO
On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Bill Booth [email protected] wrote:
On 2017-03-19 1:53 AM, Ken M wrote:
Thanks for indulging my shopping frustrations, and my inexperience,
but
I have to think there are others new to the hobby that are having similar thoughts. Do Amsat members see this as a problem?
Well Ken I am of the same thinking but a bit different. I have an old
970
and it works great for the birds, but like to do some EME as well at
23cm.
The field is like you say do it all or nothing. The 9100 is nice but
has
HF in it. and looks real small sitting next to my 7700 HF rig.
I bet the next rigs will be SDR driven and the size of your
phone........
-- Bill Booth VE3NXK Sundridge ON, Canada 79.23.37 W x 45.46.18 N FN05ns
Visit my weather WebCam at http://www.almaguin.com/
wxcurrent/weather.html
Organ and Tissue Donation - The Gift of Life Talk to your family. Your decision can make a difference.
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participants (11)
-
Bill Booth -
Jeff Davis -
John Geiger -
Ken M -
Mike Diehl -
Mike Sprenger -
Norm n3ykf -
Paul Stoetzer -
Robert McGwier -
STeve Andre' -
Steve May