Solar Power (I was wrong)
Since Satellite design is heavy into Solar power, and I talk about that a lot, you may have heard me compare my Solar car to Solar panels on the roof of your house as not economical, I WAS WRONG. I was overlooking many recent changes in the environment:
1) Solar panels (PV) are 1% of what they cost in 1970 2) PV dropped 40% this year due to 2007 Energy Boom and 2009 economic bust 4) $5,000 to $20,000 tax and cash back incentives for YOU 5) Grid-tie systems operate at 95% efficiency compared to 70% of battery systems 6) Local electric rates DOUBLED in the last 2 years 7) Laws require utilities to pay you the same peak rates they charge you. 8) Solar Energy credits can gain an additional $275 per 1Kw system per year 9) Payback is at least 10% per year or better 10) The same money in the bank gets 1% interest
So I was wrong in not keeping current with all the changing environment, and now I am full speed to get my system approved and built and correct any miss-guidance I may have helped propagate.
Sorry. I am claiming this particular email is on-topic because of public statements to the contrary I have made at satellite forums. But this hot topic should probably spin off elsewhere. We need a HAM Solar Power group somewhere...?
Summary: Do NOT make the mistake (as most of us do) of thinking in terms of stand-alone Battery back-up solar power systems . They cost more and you don't need it in most places where you have access to the grid. They cost $5 to $10,000 more, are only 70% efficient (compared to 95% for grid-tie) and are a never ending maintenance headache. Instead, most any enterprising ham should be able to provide his own backup power using a cheap 1 kW inverter for about $150 from any auto store or radio shack running off his car's 12V system for any power outages.
That, a few deep cycle batteries, (and using CFL lightbulbs in your house) will give you enough emergency power to operate your full Ham station, all the lights in the house you want plus your refrigerator for as long as you can buy gas. But the other 99.99% of the time, sell your solar power to the power company (at peak rates during the day) and buy it back cheap at night (you win and you don't even have to worrry about batteries)...
And even if your grid-tie solar array produces nothing (in the way of AC power) when the grid goes out, you still have many Killowatts of DC power on your roof, that you can surely find lots of things to do with until the grid comes back. For example, have the electrician wire a 250 volt string of the 200 Watt solar panels in the array to a DPDT switch so they can be disconnected from the Grid Tie system and the 250 VDC can be available to you. THen you can plug in as many modern DC/DC pwer supplies into that 250 VDC to give you LOTS of amps at 12 volts, or ... almost any modern gizmo has a universal power supply input that will run on anything from 110V to 330V DC as is.
Anyway, for similar hints www.aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
Sorry for the off-topic. But I was wrong. PV works! (even in Maryland). If you live in the SW, you are lucky, and it works TWICE as much or at HALF the price!
A Born-again Home PV junkie Bob, WB4APR
Interesting topic. Here in the desert, Las Vegas, NV, I've seen a few homes with solar panels on their roofs. Not a lot but a few here and there. Actually, I see more with roof heating systems for the pools than anything else. However, I'm sure there are more out there than I'm seeing. In any case, a topic has risen about generating and selling power back to the utility company.....taxes. Some states are now implementing taxes on residential owners who generate and "sell back" their power to the utility company. Pennsylvania happens to be one of them. I believe the standing is if you sell back over 50,000 watts of power you will incur additional taxes, adding to your state personal income tax. Apparantly, after 50,000 watts your considered a "generating" or "generator" entity and are subject to tax. Lets say you were able to generate and sell back 100,000 watts to the utility company. The first 50,000 watts would be "free". From then on out, it's taxed. Not sure what rate they are or would be applying but lets say 15 cents per KW. At 50,000 watts that would be $7.50. Doesn't sound like much, then again 15 cents per KW is probably nowhere near what they really want.
I believe you will see this happen more often as states look for additional revenue.
73,
Jeff WB3JFS
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Bruninga" bruninga@usna.edu To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:37 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Solar Power (I was wrong)
Since Satellite design is heavy into Solar power, and I talk about that a lot, you may have heard me compare my Solar car to Solar panels on the roof of your house as not economical, I WAS WRONG. I was overlooking many recent changes in the environment:
- Solar panels (PV) are 1% of what they cost in 1970
- PV dropped 40% this year due to 2007 Energy Boom and 2009
economic bust 4) $5,000 to $20,000 tax and cash back incentives for YOU 5) Grid-tie systems operate at 95% efficiency compared to 70% of battery systems 6) Local electric rates DOUBLED in the last 2 years 7) Laws require utilities to pay you the same peak rates they charge you. 8) Solar Energy credits can gain an additional $275 per 1Kw system per year 9) Payback is at least 10% per year or better 10) The same money in the bank gets 1% interest
So I was wrong in not keeping current with all the changing environment, and now I am full speed to get my system approved and built and correct any miss-guidance I may have helped propagate.
Sorry. I am claiming this particular email is on-topic because of public statements to the contrary I have made at satellite forums. But this hot topic should probably spin off elsewhere. We need a HAM Solar Power group somewhere...?
Summary: Do NOT make the mistake (as most of us do) of thinking in terms of stand-alone Battery back-up solar power systems . They cost more and you don't need it in most places where you have access to the grid. They cost $5 to $10,000 more, are only 70% efficient (compared to 95% for grid-tie) and are a never ending maintenance headache. Instead, most any enterprising ham should be able to provide his own backup power using a cheap 1 kW inverter for about $150 from any auto store or radio shack running off his car's 12V system for any power outages.
That, a few deep cycle batteries, (and using CFL lightbulbs in your house) will give you enough emergency power to operate your full Ham station, all the lights in the house you want plus your refrigerator for as long as you can buy gas. But the other 99.99% of the time, sell your solar power to the power company (at peak rates during the day) and buy it back cheap at night (you win and you don't even have to worrry about batteries)...
And even if your grid-tie solar array produces nothing (in the way of AC power) when the grid goes out, you still have many Killowatts of DC power on your roof, that you can surely find lots of things to do with until the grid comes back. For example, have the electrician wire a 250 volt string of the 200 Watt solar panels in the array to a DPDT switch so they can be disconnected from the Grid Tie system and the 250 VDC can be available to you. THen you can plug in as many modern DC/DC pwer supplies into that 250 VDC to give you LOTS of amps at 12 volts, or ... almost any modern gizmo has a universal power supply input that will run on anything from 110V to 330V DC as is.
Anyway, for similar hints www.aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
Sorry for the off-topic. But I was wrong. PV works! (even in Maryland). If you live in the SW, you are lucky, and it works TWICE as much or at HALF the price!
A Born-again Home PV junkie Bob, WB4APR
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I've recently looked into PV home installations in California. Unfortunately, here at least, the power company is only required to pay you the WHOLESALE cost of electricity. This amounts to 3 to 4 cents per kw-hr. Hence, most folks size their PV system to exactly meet their needs. I have three friends who have had systems running for 3 years. You get credits from the power company for the power you generated during the year. Then they even up at the end of the year. If you made more electricity than you used, you lose it. If you made less, then you owe them the difference. Since they have sized the systems correctly, they owe very little money.
One of my friends installed a water spray system to cool the panels since they lose efficiency fast as the temperature goes up. Also, it doesn't take much dust or bird poop to cut the efficiency. So if you install a system, be prepared to get on the roof every month or so to clean the panels.
Regards,
Pete
WA6WOA
--- On Thu, 10/1/09, Jeff Yanko wb3jfs@cox.net wrote:
From: Jeff Yanko wb3jfs@cox.net Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Solar Power (I was wrong) To: bruninga@usna.edu, amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 6:04 PM
Interesting topic. Here in the desert, Las Vegas, NV, I've seen a few homes with solar panels on their roofs. Not a lot but a few here and there. Actually, I see more with roof heating systems for the pools than anything else. However, I'm sure there are more out there than I'm seeing. In any case, a topic has risen about generating and selling power back to the utility company.....taxes. Some states are now implementing taxes on residential owners who generate and "sell back" their power to the utility company. Pennsylvania happens to be one of them. I believe the standing is if you sell back over 50,000 watts of power you will incur additional taxes, adding to your state personal income tax. Apparantly, after 50,000 watts your considered a "generating" or "generator" entity and are subject to tax. Lets say you were able to generate and sell back 100,000 watts to the utility company. The first 50,000 watts would be "free". From then on out, it's taxed. Not sure what rate they are or would be applying but lets say 15 cents per KW. At 50,000 watts that would be $7.50. Doesn't sound like much, then again 15 cents per KW is probably nowhere near what they really want.
I believe you will see this happen more often as states look for additional revenue.
73,
Jeff WB3JFS
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Bruninga" bruninga@usna.edu To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:37 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Solar Power (I was wrong)
Since Satellite design is heavy into Solar power, and I talk about that a lot, you may have heard me compare my Solar car to Solar panels on the roof of your house as not economical, I WAS WRONG. I was overlooking many recent changes in the environment:
- Solar panels (PV) are 1% of what they cost in 1970
- PV dropped 40% this year due to 2007 Energy Boom and 2009
economic bust 4) $5,000 to $20,000 tax and cash back incentives for YOU 5) Grid-tie systems operate at 95% efficiency compared to 70% of battery systems 6) Local electric rates DOUBLED in the last 2 years 7) Laws require utilities to pay you the same peak rates they charge you. 8) Solar Energy credits can gain an additional $275 per 1Kw system per year 9) Payback is at least 10% per year or better 10) The same money in the bank gets 1% interest
So I was wrong in not keeping current with all the changing environment, and now I am full speed to get my system approved and built and correct any miss-guidance I may have helped propagate.
Sorry. I am claiming this particular email is on-topic because of public statements to the contrary I have made at satellite forums. But this hot topic should probably spin off elsewhere. We need a HAM Solar Power group somewhere...?
Summary: Do NOT make the mistake (as most of us do) of thinking in terms of stand-alone Battery back-up solar power systems . They cost more and you don't need it in most places where you have access to the grid. They cost $5 to $10,000 more, are only 70% efficient (compared to 95% for grid-tie) and are a never ending maintenance headache. Instead, most any enterprising ham should be able to provide his own backup power using a cheap 1 kW inverter for about $150 from any auto store or radio shack running off his car's 12V system for any power outages.
That, a few deep cycle batteries, (and using CFL lightbulbs in your house) will give you enough emergency power to operate your full Ham station, all the lights in the house you want plus your refrigerator for as long as you can buy gas. But the other 99.99% of the time, sell your solar power to the power company (at peak rates during the day) and buy it back cheap at night (you win and you don't even have to worrry about batteries)...
And even if your grid-tie solar array produces nothing (in the way of AC power) when the grid goes out, you still have many Killowatts of DC power on your roof, that you can surely find lots of things to do with until the grid comes back. For example, have the electrician wire a 250 volt string of the 200 Watt solar panels in the array to a DPDT switch so they can be disconnected from the Grid Tie system and the 250 VDC can be available to you. THen you can plug in as many modern DC/DC pwer supplies into that 250 VDC to give you LOTS of amps at 12 volts, or ... almost any modern gizmo has a universal power supply input that will run on anything from 110V to 330V DC as is.
Anyway, for similar hints www.aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
Sorry for the off-topic. But I was wrong. PV works! (even in Maryland). If you live in the SW, you are lucky, and it works TWICE as much or at HALF the price!
A Born-again Home PV junkie Bob, WB4APR
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi Pete,
FB on friends and their systems. What will happen is since each state has its own PUC, Public Utility Commission, and laws there will be 50 different ways of handling how to reimburse, tax or otherwise garnish money from this process.
I've also been wondering. Since a basic grid-tie system can cost from $15,000 to $25,000, they only last so long. Twenty years, tops maybe? Do they really pay for themselves, even wth tax credits, when you have to replace them in say twenty years?
73,
Jeff WB3JFS ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete Rowe To: bruninga@usna.edu ; amsat-bb@amsat.org ; Jeff Yanko Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Solar Power (I was wrong)
I've recently looked into PV home installations in California. Unfortunately, here at least, the power company is only required to pay you the WHOLESALE cost of electricity. This amounts to 3 to 4 cents per kw-hr. Hence, most folks size their PV system to exactly meet their needs. I have three friends who have had systems running for 3 years. You get credits from the power company for the power you generated during the year. Then they even up at the end of the year. If you made more electricity than you used, you lose it. If you made less, then you owe them the difference. Since they have sized the systems correctly, they owe very little money. One of my friends installed a water spray system to cool the panels since they lose efficiency fast as the temperature goes up. Also, it doesn't take much dust or bird poop to cut the efficiency. So if you install a system, be prepared to get on the roof every month or so to clean the panels.
Regards, Pete WA6WOA
--- On Thu, 10/1/09, Jeff Yanko wb3jfs@cox.net wrote:
From: Jeff Yanko wb3jfs@cox.net Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Solar Power (I was wrong) To: bruninga@usna.edu, amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 6:04 PM
Interesting topic. Here in the desert, Las Vegas, NV, I've seen a few homes with solar panels on their roofs. Not a lot but a few here and there. Actually, I see more with roof heating systems for the pools than anything else. However, I'm sure there are more out there than I'm seeing. In any case, a topic has risen about generating and selling power back to the utility company.....taxes. Some states are now implementing taxes on residential owners who generate and "sell back" their power to the utility company. Pennsylvania happens to be one of them. I believe the standing is if you sell back over 50,000 watts of power you will incur additional taxes, adding to your state personal income tax. Apparantly, after 50,000 watts your considered a "generating" or "generator" entity and are subject to tax. Lets say you were able to generate and sell back 100,000 watts to the utility company. The first 50,000 watts would be "free". >From then on out, it's taxed. Not sure what rate they are or would be applying but lets say 15 cents per KW. At 50,000 watts that would be $7.50. Doesn't sound like much, then again 15 cents per KW is probably nowhere near what they really want.
I believe you will see this happen more often as states look for additional revenue.
73,
Jeff WB3JFS
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Bruninga" bruninga@usna.edu To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:37 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Solar Power (I was wrong)
> Since Satellite design is heavy into Solar power, and I talk > about that a lot, you may have heard me compare my Solar car to > Solar panels on the roof of your house as not economical, I WAS > WRONG. I was overlooking many recent changes in the > environment: > > 1) Solar panels (PV) are 1% of what they cost in 1970 > 2) PV dropped 40% this year due to 2007 Energy Boom and 2009 > economic bust > 4) $5,000 to $20,000 tax and cash back incentives for YOU > 5) Grid-tie systems operate at 95% efficiency compared to 70% of > battery systems > 6) Local electric rates DOUBLED in the last 2 years > 7) Laws require utilities to pay you the same peak rates they > charge you. > 8) Solar Energy credits can gain an additional $275 per 1Kw > system per year > 9) Payback is at least 10% per year or better > 10) The same money in the bank gets 1% interest > > So I was wrong in not keeping current with all the changing > environment, and now I am full speed to get my system approved > and built and correct any miss-guidance I may have helped > propagate. > > Sorry. I am claiming this particular email is on-topic because > of public statements to the contrary I have made at satellite > forums. But this hot topic should probably spin off elsewhere. > We need a HAM Solar Power group somewhere...? > > Summary: Do NOT make the mistake (as most of us do) of thinking > in terms of stand-alone Battery back-up solar power systems . > They cost more and you don't need it in most places where you > have access to the grid. They cost $5 to $10,000 more, are only > 70% efficient (compared to 95% for grid-tie) and are a never > ending maintenance headache. Instead, most any enterprising ham > should be able to provide his own backup power using a cheap 1 > kW inverter for about $150 from any auto store or radio shack > running off his car's 12V system for any power outages. > > That, a few deep cycle batteries, (and using CFL lightbulbs in > your house) will give you enough emergency power to operate your > full Ham station, all the lights in the house you want plus your > refrigerator for as long as you can buy gas. But the other > 99.99% of the time, sell your solar power to the power company > (at peak rates during the day) and buy it back cheap at night > (you win and you don't even have to worrry about batteries)... > > And even if your grid-tie solar array produces nothing (in the > way of AC power) when the grid goes out, you still have many > Killowatts of DC power on your roof, that you can surely find > lots of things to do with until the grid comes back. For > example, have the electrician wire a 250 volt string of the 200 > Watt solar panels in the array to a DPDT switch so they can be > disconnected from the Grid Tie system and the 250 VDC can be > available to you. THen you can plug in as many modern DC/DC > pwer supplies into that 250 VDC to give you LOTS of amps at 12 > volts, or ... almost any modern gizmo has a universal power > supply input that will run on anything from 110V to 330V DC as > is. > > Anyway, for similar hints www.aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html > > Sorry for the off-topic. But I was wrong. PV works! (even in > Maryland). If you live in the SW, you are lucky, and it works > TWICE as much or at HALF the price! > > A Born-again Home PV junkie > Bob, WB4APR > > > _______________________________________________ > Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb >
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
My simple math says it'll take almost 16 years to be reimbursed on a $30k system.
Initial outlay: $30,000 US tax credit: 5% (I guessed, I have no idea so this number could be high or low) US reimbursement: $1500 (this is not real money, but a reduction in taxable income) Total: $28,500 (realizing you *still* paid $30k out-of-pocket and only saw a $1500 savings in taxable income) Savings per year: $1800 (someone posted earlier that their friend realized a savings of ~$150 / month) $30k / 1.8k = 15.83 years
One of the points of the post, I think, was to make ourselves less dependent on foreign oil, not, necessarily a savings in utility costs for the household. The other point was to build and experiment. So, if you want to build it and try it out, do so.
Personally, I do not think PV cells are that efficient. To get the 12VDC I need to power my remote, low-powered SCADA repeaters, I have to install PV cells that generate about 19 - 20 VDC and run them through charge controllers. I've just lost more than 30% in generated electricity to heat. I suppose I could investigate and have the company purchase more efficient PV cells, but I've been told numerous times, "That's not your job."
Now, if someone could tell me how to do it more efficiently, I'm all ears.
73, Joel, W4JBB
Jeff Yanko wrote:
Hi Pete,
FB on friends and their systems. What will happen is since each state has its own PUC, Public Utility Commission, and laws there will be 50 different ways of handling how to reimburse, tax or otherwise garnish money from this process.
I've also been wondering. Since a basic grid-tie system can cost from $15,000 to $25,000, they only last so long. Twenty years, tops maybe? Do they really pay for themselves, even wth tax credits, when you have to replace them in say twenty years?
73,
Jeff WB3JFS ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete Rowe To: bruninga@usna.edu ; amsat-bb@amsat.org ; Jeff Yanko Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Solar Power (I was wrong)
I've recently looked into PV home installations in California. Unfortunately, here at least, the power company is only required to pay you the WHOLESALE cost of electricity. This amounts to 3 to 4 cents per kw-hr. Hence, most folks size their PV system to exactly meet their needs. I have three friends who have had systems running for 3 years. You get credits from the power company for the power you generated during the year. Then they even up at the end of the year. If you made more electricity than you used, you lose it. If you made less, then you owe them the difference. Since they have sized the systems correctly, they owe very little money. One of my friends installed a water spray system to cool the panels since they lose efficiency fast as the temperature goes up. Also, it doesn't take much dust or bird poop to cut the efficiency. So if you install a system, be prepared to get on the roof every month or so to clean the panels. Regards, Pete WA6WOA --- On Thu, 10/1/09, Jeff Yanko <wb3jfs@cox.net> wrote: From: Jeff Yanko <wb3jfs@cox.net> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Solar Power (I was wrong) To: bruninga@usna.edu, amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 6:04 PM Interesting topic. Here in the desert, Las Vegas, NV, I've seen a few homes with solar panels on their roofs. Not a lot but a few here and there. Actually, I see more with roof heating systems for the pools than anything else. However, I'm sure there are more out there than I'm seeing. In any case, a topic has risen about generating and selling power back to the utility company.....taxes. Some states are now implementing taxes on residential owners who generate and "sell back" their power to the utility company. Pennsylvania happens to be one of them. I believe the standing is if you sell back over 50,000 watts of power you will incur additional taxes, adding to your state personal income tax. Apparantly, after 50,000 watts your considered a "generating" or "generator" entity and are subject to tax. Lets say you were able to generate and sell back 100,000 watts to the utility company. The first 50,000 watts would be "free". From then on out, it's taxed. Not sure what rate they are or would be applying but lets say 15 cents per KW. At 50,000 watts that would be $7.50. Doesn't sound like much, then again 15 cents per KW is probably nowhere near what they really want. I believe you will see this happen more often as states look for additional revenue. 73, Jeff WB3JFS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga@usna.edu> To: <amsat-bb@amsat.org> Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:37 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Solar Power (I was wrong) > Since Satellite design is heavy into Solar power, and I talk > about that a lot, you may have heard me compare my Solar car to > Solar panels on the roof of your house as not economical, I WAS > WRONG. I was overlooking many recent changes in the > environment: > > 1) Solar panels (PV) are 1% of what they cost in 1970 > 2) PV dropped 40% this year due to 2007 Energy Boom and 2009 > economic bust > 4) $5,000 to $20,000 tax and cash back incentives for YOU > 5) Grid-tie systems operate at 95% efficiency compared to 70% of > battery systems > 6) Local electric rates DOUBLED in the last 2 years > 7) Laws require utilities to pay you the same peak rates they > charge you. > 8) Solar Energy credits can gain an additional $275 per 1Kw > system per year > 9) Payback is at least 10% per year or better > 10) The same money in the bank gets 1% interest > > So I was wrong in not keeping current with all the changing > environment, and now I am full speed to get my system approved > and built and correct any miss-guidance I may have helped > propagate. > > Sorry. I am claiming this particular email is on-topic because > of public statements to the contrary I have made at satellite > forums. But this hot topic should probably spin off elsewhere. > We need a HAM Solar Power group somewhere...? > > Summary: Do NOT make the mistake (as most of us do) of thinking > in terms of stand-alone Battery back-up solar power systems . > They cost more and you don't need it in most places where you > have access to the grid. They cost $5 to $10,000 more, are only > 70% efficient (compared to 95% for grid-tie) and are a never > ending maintenance headache. Instead, most any enterprising ham > should be able to provide his own backup power using a cheap 1 > kW inverter for about $150 from any auto store or radio shack > running off his car's 12V system for any power outages. > > That, a few deep cycle batteries, (and using CFL lightbulbs in > your house) will give you enough emergency power to operate your > full Ham station, all the lights in the house you want plus your > refrigerator for as long as you can buy gas. But the other > 99.99% of the time, sell your solar power to the power company > (at peak rates during the day) and buy it back cheap at night > (you win and you don't even have to worrry about batteries)... > > And even if your grid-tie solar array produces nothing (in the > way of AC power) when the grid goes out, you still have many > Killowatts of DC power on your roof, that you can surely find > lots of things to do with until the grid comes back. For > example, have the electrician wire a 250 volt string of the 200 > Watt solar panels in the array to a DPDT switch so they can be > disconnected from the Grid Tie system and the 250 VDC can be > available to you. THen you can plug in as many modern DC/DC > pwer supplies into that 250 VDC to give you LOTS of amps at 12 > volts, or ... almost any modern gizmo has a universal power > supply input that will run on anything from 110V to 330V DC as > is. > > Anyway, for similar hints www.aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html > > Sorry for the off-topic. But I was wrong. PV works! (even in > Maryland). If you live in the SW, you are lucky, and it works > TWICE as much or at HALF the price! > > A Born-again Home PV junkie > Bob, WB4APR > > > _______________________________________________ > Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
My simple math says it'll take almost 16 years to be reimbursed on a $30k system.
Its more like 5.5 years.. I'll show you my numbers for Maryland:
Initial outlay: $30,000 US tax credit: 5%
No, Federal Credit is 30%
US reimbursement: $1500 (this is not real money, but a reduction in taxable income)
at 30% it is $9,000 and it is a *credit*, not a deduction, so that is cash in your pocket off the tax you pay.
Then most states, give either similar Tax *credits* or grants, in my state it would be about $4,000 check, payable to me when installation is complete. Then the county makes up the difference to 50% of the cost of the system.
Total: $28,500
No, here, my net outlay is reduced to 50% or only $15,000.
Savings per year in electricity: $1800
That, plus Solar Energy Renewable credits paid to you by the power company or brokers at about $250 per KW capacity for a 4 Kw system = $1000 per year. They buy this credit from you so that they dont have to build solar systems. By paying you this credit, they get to subtract the capacity from the amount they are required to build by the year 2020? or whatever. So add the two and you get a payback of $2800/year.
$30k / 1.8k = 15.83 years
* My numbers show $15k / 2.8 = 5.3 years (even less if electric rates go up)
One of the points of the post, I think, was to make ourselves less dependent on foreign oil..
Personally, I do not think PV cells are that efficient. To get the 12VDC I need to power my remote... repeaters, I... lose more than 30% in generated heat.
Yes! That was my mistake too. Energy Storage in batteries is very inefficient. About 30% or more losses. But GRID-TIE systems are 95% efficient PLUS you are selling the power to the grid at PEAK rates in the middle of the day, and buying it back at discout rates at night. Net effect is not a loss, but a GAIN. Of course, this does not help at a repeater, but do not carryover these losses to a Grid Tie system where it does not apply...
they only last so long. Twenty years, tops maybe? Do they really pay for themselves?
You bet for sure! Compare that to a $30,000 car, which is junk in 10 years and you have nothing. The solar system cost $30,000 (actually $15K) and you MAKE $15k in the first 5 years, and for the next 15, you make $45,000, and then your array has decayed to maybe only 80% of its original life... but it is still MAKING money at then CURRENT rates...
The 20 and 30 year life does not mean they die, it is just that their power has dropped by XX%... Im guessing that the threshold is 80%?
in California. .. the power company is only required to pay you the WHOLESALE cost of electricity. This amounts to 3 to 4 cents per kw-hr.
Ah, but if you pay 15 cents per KWH during the day to run your home, and you have enough solar to balance that, then the payback to you is still 15 cents per KwH. Its only the excess you generate that pays you the low rates.
The key word is "net metering". In other states with net-metering, they have to give you the full 15 cents credit for the excess power you generate. But in most all cases, you cannot beuild up credits beyond a year cycle.
... bird poop to cut the efficiency. be prepared to get on the roof every month or so to clean the panels.
AMEN. PV cells are in series. One big splat that covers one CELL, reduces the power of the ENTIRE PANEL. A single Flag Pole shadow across a roof, can reduce the power of the entire roof array tremendously...
if you sell back over 50,000 watts of power you will incur additional taxes, ... you are considered a "generator"
I assume that is NET. To build up that much excess capacity would require an array on my house covering 3 times the roof area I have available. And it would make no sense to build an array that big, since you aleady know that you get paid peanuts for excess net power (wholesale).
Lets say you were able to generate and sell back 100,000 watts to the utility company.
Yes, that is my annual consumption. But my array will be sized so that I generate 100,000 in that same year. SO the NET "sell back" is ZERO. And I got all my electricity for FREE that year. You are right, that if I make my array TWICE as big as I need, and spent about $100,000 for it, that then, I would generate twice the electricity I need, and would not get paid but probably HALF the rate for it PLUS the taxes you mentino. Oh, and that array would coer 8,000 square feet almost an Acre... So I would not worry about a homeower making the mistake of building too big a system...
- Solar panels (PV) are 1% of what they cost in 1970
- PV dropped 40% this year due to 2007 Energy Boom and 2009 economic bust
- $5,000 to $20,000 tax and cash back incentives for YOU
- Grid-tie systems operate at 95% efficiency compared to 70% of battery systems
- Local electric rates DOUBLED in the last 2 years
- Laws require utilities to pay you the same peak rates they charge you.
- Solar Energy credits can gain an additional $275 per 1Kw system per year
- Payback is at least 10% per year or better
- The same money in the bank gets 1% interest
Hi Jeff and all,
I got 25 years warranty on the panels, meaning that after 25years at least 80% of the power output will remain.
The weak point in the installation is the converter which has an life expectancy of 8-10 years. It is also cheap in the overall picture. Less than 5% of the cost of the total installation: 1200euros for a 5KW peak converter.
BR, -- //\arc
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Yanko Sent: vrijdag 2 oktober 2009 4:49 To: Pete Rowe; bruninga@usna.edu; amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Solar Power (I was wrong)
Hi Pete,
FB on friends and their systems. What will happen is since each state has its own PUC, Public Utility Commission, and laws there will be 50 different ways of handling how to reimburse, tax or otherwise garnish money from this process.
I've also been wondering. Since a basic grid-tie system can cost from $15,000 to $25,000, they only last so long. Twenty years, tops maybe? Do they really pay for themselves, even wth tax credits, when you have to replace them in say twenty years?
Bob, I *never* consider your posts as "Off Topic"! As others have replied, it varies greatly state-by-state. I have a very good friend who installed a grid-tie system at his house. He was $30,000 out-of-pocket, and got some fraction of that back in tax credits. Where he lives in California (Orange County), the utility DOES NOT buy power back from him; he only reduces his bill, a significant amount in summer, and less in the winter. IIRC, he told me his lowest power bill was a few dollars, and his highest was $45~$50. His bill *was* running $200 and higher before he bought his system. Jim KQ6EA
--- On Thu, 10/1/09, Robert Bruninga bruninga@usna.edu wrote:
From: Robert Bruninga bruninga@usna.edu Subject: [amsat-bb] Solar Power (I was wrong) To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 5:37 PM Since Satellite design is heavy into Solar power, and I talk about that a lot, you may have heard me compare my Solar car to Solar panels on the roof of your house as not economical, I WAS WRONG. I was overlooking many recent changes in the environment:
- Solar panels (PV) are 1% of what they cost in 1970
- PV dropped 40% this year due to 2007 Energy Boom and
2009 economic bust 4) $5,000 to $20,000 tax and cash back incentives for YOU 5) Grid-tie systems operate at 95% efficiency compared to 70% of battery systems 6) Local electric rates DOUBLED in the last 2 years 7) Laws require utilities to pay you the same peak rates they charge you. 8) Solar Energy credits can gain an additional $275 per 1Kw system per year 9) Payback is at least 10% per year or better 10) The same money in the bank gets 1% interest
So I was wrong in not keeping current with all the changing environment, and now I am full speed to get my system approved and built and correct any miss-guidance I may have helped propagate.
Sorry. I am claiming this particular email is on-topic because of public statements to the contrary I have made at satellite forums. But this hot topic should probably spin off elsewhere. We need a HAM Solar Power group somewhere...?
Summary: Do NOT make the mistake (as most of us do) of thinking in terms of stand-alone Battery back-up solar power systems . They cost more and you don't need it in most places where you have access to the grid. They cost $5 to $10,000 more, are only 70% efficient (compared to 95% for grid-tie) and are a never ending maintenance headache. Instead, most any enterprising ham should be able to provide his own backup power using a cheap 1 kW inverter for about $150 from any auto store or radio shack running off his car's 12V system for any power outages.
That, a few deep cycle batteries, (and using CFL lightbulbs in your house) will give you enough emergency power to operate your full Ham station, all the lights in the house you want plus your refrigerator for as long as you can buy gas. But the other 99.99% of the time, sell your solar power to the power company (at peak rates during the day) and buy it back cheap at night (you win and you don't even have to worrry about batteries)...
And even if your grid-tie solar array produces nothing (in the way of AC power) when the grid goes out, you still have many Killowatts of DC power on your roof, that you can surely find lots of things to do with until the grid comes back. For example, have the electrician wire a 250 volt string of the 200 Watt solar panels in the array to a DPDT switch so they can be disconnected from the Grid Tie system and the 250 VDC can be available to you. THen you can plug in as many modern DC/DC pwer supplies into that 250 VDC to give you LOTS of amps at 12 volts, or ... almost any modern gizmo has a universal power supply input that will run on anything from 110V to 330V DC as is.
Anyway, for similar hints www.aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
Sorry for the off-topic. But I was wrong. PV works! (even in Maryland). If you live in the SW, you are lucky, and it works TWICE as much or at HALF the price!
A Born-again Home PV junkie Bob, WB4APR
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
At 04:37 PM 10/1/2009, Robert Bruninga wrote:
Since Satellite design is heavy into Solar power, and I talk about that a lot, you may have heard me compare my Solar car to Solar panels on the roof of your house as not economical, I WAS WRONG. I was overlooking many recent changes in the environment:
- Solar panels (PV) are 1% of what they cost in 1970
- PV dropped 40% this year due to 2007 Energy Boom and 2009
economic bust 4) $5,000 to $20,000 tax and cash back incentives for YOU 5) Grid-tie systems operate at 95% efficiency compared to 70% of battery systems 6) Local electric rates DOUBLED in the last 2 years 7) Laws require utilities to pay you the same peak rates they charge you. 8) Solar Energy credits can gain an additional $275 per 1Kw system per year 9) Payback is at least 10% per year or better 10) The same money in the bank gets 1% interest
So I was wrong in not keeping current with all the changing environment, and now I am full speed to get my system approved and built and correct any miss-guidance I may have helped propagate.
Sorry. I am claiming this particular email is on-topic because of public statements to the contrary I have made at satellite forums. But this hot topic should probably spin off elsewhere. We need a HAM Solar Power group somewhere...?
Summary: Do NOT make the mistake (as most of us do) of thinking in terms of stand-alone Battery back-up solar power systems . They cost more and you don't need it in most places where you have access to the grid. They cost $5 to $10,000 more, are only 70% efficient (compared to 95% for grid-tie) and are a never ending maintenance headache. Instead, most any enterprising ham should be able to provide his own backup power using a cheap 1 kW inverter for about $150 from any auto store or radio shack running off his car's 12V system for any power outages.
That, a few deep cycle batteries, (and using CFL lightbulbs in your house) will give you enough emergency power to operate your full Ham station, all the lights in the house you want plus your refrigerator for as long as you can buy gas. But the other 99.99% of the time, sell your solar power to the power company (at peak rates during the day) and buy it back cheap at night (you win and you don't even have to worrry about batteries)...
And even if your grid-tie solar array produces nothing (in the way of AC power) when the grid goes out, you still have many Killowatts of DC power on your roof, that you can surely find lots of things to do with until the grid comes back. For example, have the electrician wire a 250 volt string of the 200 Watt solar panels in the array to a DPDT switch so they can be disconnected from the Grid Tie system and the 250 VDC can be available to you. THen you can plug in as many modern DC/DC pwer supplies into that 250 VDC to give you LOTS of amps at 12 volts, or ... almost any modern gizmo has a universal power supply input that will run on anything from 110V to 330V DC as is.
Anyway, for similar hints www.aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
Sorry for the off-topic. But I was wrong. PV works! (even in Maryland). If you live in the SW, you are lucky, and it works TWICE as much or at HALF the price!
A Born-again Home PV junkie Bob, WB4APR
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Couple comments:
A 12-vdc battery back-up for your stations requires no conversion to AC, since most ham gear runs on 12v. A PV to battery system will keep one going when "the lights go out"! may not happen much down there in "civilization" but here in Alaska, several outages a year happen, some go for days. We have a 2500w standby gen that outputs 240vac to feed the main ckt breaker (with mains isolated). We have to load shed some areas of the house in that scenario. The same ckt can be connected to my shack to feed a small breaker box that supplies 240vc to the HV Power Supplies. (obviously we do not run the big amps when the power is out).
I have installed many PV panels in remote sites over the years. They are much more efficient these days. It gets more challenging to depend on solar year-round since winter sunlight is only 5.5 hours/day. At my company's sites we opted to use supplemental solar during the warmer months when there is long sunlight and have an auto switch that detects low voltage to switch to the primary oxygen-activated alkaline battery plant (15vdc @ 10,800 AH). The primary batteries have a life of 3-years+ so we schedule their replacement (involves helicopter delivery= $2500) on the third year ($5500). Cheaper power exists but due to extreme weather on the mountain (-30F and >200mph winds), it is not feasible to visit the mountain 8-months/year!
If one is still planning to utilize a stand-alone PV electric system, then they should look at the sine-wave inverters that are very efficient (some at 98%). They do cost more!
Side Note: one of Alaska's utilities is installing 27 wind generators to supply the grid (on an island 8-miles from Anchorage). These are the 300-foot prop "babies"! I'm sure that this implies megawatts.
73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 ====================================== BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com 500-KHz/CW, 144-MHz EME, 1296-MHz EME DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubususa@hotmail.com ======================================
participants (8)
-
Bob Bruninga -
Edward Cole -
Jeff Yanko -
Jim Jerzycke -
Joel Black -
Marc Vermeersch -
Pete Rowe -
Robert Bruninga