... Censorship in any form without external control is unacceptable ...
AMSAT is not "censoring" anyone. In America, only the government is not allowed to "censor" folks. You know, that First Amendment thingie:
"Congress shall make no law respecting ... abridging the freedom of speech ... "
This messagegroup - and millions of others - is a private party. NOT government-run nor sponsored. We're mere visitors entering and using it, and we have to abide by its rules - else we go elsewhere. Like guests in your home, there's an expected set of rules for behavior, and AMSAT just laid them out in black and white.
Similar to a Web site's "user service agreement" - a concept and device I've been using for my sites' visitors for over twenty years. A properly-drafted user service agreement spells out what I promise to you as the Web site owner, and what I expect from you as a visitor. Kinda like shaking hands before you peruse my sites.
Clint Bradford, K6LCS http://www.k6lcs.com
Clint. I dont agree with much of that.
I agree that the 1st amendment only applies to government at all levels (through the 14th)...but moderating the discussion to delete such things as "death threats" or whatever is far different then moderating it to put a particular group or sub group in a better light. I dont see any evidence of that yet, but the "guidelines" are so broad as to be meaningless.
This is what I really disagree with.
This messagegroup - and millions of others - is a private party. NOT government-run nor sponsored. We're mere visitors entering and using it, and we have to abide by its rules - else we go elsewhere. Like guests in your home, there's an expected set of rules for behavior, and AMSAT just laid them out in black and white.
Clint Bradford, K6LCS http://www.k6lcs.com
not really. AMSAT is a private group, but a group of members. If you are a member of AMSAT in my view short of threatening death or shouting fire when there is no fire...you pretty much get to lay ones two cents on the line.
The AMSAT BOD is more or less acting, in my view, like our politicians in Washington ie once they are elected they are to busy to listen to the people who make up the group.
Robert WB5MZO Life member _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390709/direct/01/
I find the entire thing rather silly. If the organization were flying satellites and functioning well that might be something but as it is...it is sort of like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAeqVGP-GPM&feature=related
"Gentleman you can't fight in here, This is the war room"
courtesy Dr. Strangelove
Robert WB5MZO life member
CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org From: clintbrad4d@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: It's NOT Censorship Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 12:57:22 -0800 To: orbitjet@hotmail.com
... but the "guidelines" are so broad as to be meaningless ...
I see the guidelines as a verbose version of: Be a responsible citizen of the planet. Clint _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390710/direct/01/
Actually my view of it is a bit earthier as I am sure most of those who know will attest, I am a bit of an earthy character. So please allow me not to disappoint.
All of the BS that is in this forum, the manure which has been ripped of any of its nutritional value and thus utterly devoid of content and relevance, spread by the ne'er do wells who have NEVER done a damn thing for us except give a lousy few hundred dollars (at best) and then toss Molotov cocktails, will not launch a single bloody thing into space except my blood pressure.
My attitude is easy to follow. Shut up and do something useful for the organization. When everything you can do in a positive way has been exhausted, write up a report/note/letter giving your constructive criticism and send it to the organization president and then shut up until you find another positive endeavor to undertake. All that has happened here with this policy is valuable time and energy from the VOLUNTEERS who have chosen to take the assault visited upon them hourly in this medium, which should have been spent looking for viable ways to launch anything useful into space, has been wasted by having to write this policy.
Be glad that I could no longer take it. I would have voted to shut this mess off and reveled in the silence. Then I would have been assured that the mindless rot that gets drooled onto the keyboard by the impending senescence of the monstrously inept that visit here and blather would at least have none of the feeding that they get by reading their tripe and congratulating themselves in their continuing delusions that they have accomplished a thing except hurt the organization.
My very best 73's to all who care enough about AMSAT to actually do something for it rather than babble from the depths of the depravity that is surely in most of the ne'er do wells souls.
Bob McGwier Life Member and active engineer for AMSAT since I was 21 years old. N4HY
On 1/15/2010 3:57 PM, Clint Bradford wrote:
... but the "guidelines" are so broad as to be meaningless ...
I see the guidelines as a verbose version of:
Be a responsible citizen of the planet.
Clint _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Right on Clint. Bad behavior used to get you a spanking as a kid. Since things have changed now,
some (now) grown ups have missed out on etiquette.
Peter NH6VB
From: clintbrad4d@earthlink.net Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 12:15:59 -0800 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: It's NOT Censorship
... Censorship in any form without external control is unacceptable ...
AMSAT is not "censoring" anyone. In America, only the government is not allowed to "censor" folks. You know, that First Amendment thingie:
"Congress shall make no law respecting ... abridging the freedom of speech ... "
This messagegroup - and millions of others - is a private party. NOT government-run nor sponsored. We're mere visitors entering and using it, and we have to abide by its rules - else we go elsewhere. Like guests in your home, there's an expected set of rules for behavior, and AMSAT just laid them out in black and white.
Similar to a Web site's "user service agreement" - a concept and device I've been using for my sites' visitors for over twenty years. A properly-drafted user service agreement spells out what I promise to you as the Web site owner, and what I expect from you as a visitor. Kinda like shaking hands before you peruse my sites.
Clint Bradford, K6LCS http://www.k6lcs.com _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I agree that if you don't like how things are being run:
1. leave, 2. vote out the BoD and vote in new, or 3. form your own organization.
What I disagree with is the statement, "AMSAT is not 'censoring' anyone."
Now, I'm no lawyer by any stretch, but I can read. Censoring is limiting speech based on what one finds objectionable. What is objectionable is completely subjective.
"Abridging the freedom of speech" is how it is worded in the First Amendment. Abridging also means limiting. So, whether you call it censorship or abridging, what the AMSAT BoD has done is censorship.
In the end, it's your $44.
73, Joel, W4JBB
Clint Bradford wrote:
... Censorship in any form without external control is unacceptable ...
AMSAT is not "censoring" anyone. In America, only the government is not allowed to "censor" folks. You know, that First Amendment thingie:
"Congress shall make no law respecting ... abridging the freedom of speech ... "
This messagegroup - and millions of others - is a private party. NOT government-run nor sponsored. We're mere visitors entering and using it, and we have to abide by its rules - else we go elsewhere. Like guests in your home, there's an expected set of rules for behavior, and AMSAT just laid them out in black and white.
Similar to a Web site's "user service agreement" - a concept and device I've been using for my sites' visitors for over twenty years. A properly-drafted user service agreement spells out what I promise to you as the Web site owner, and what I expect from you as a visitor. Kinda like shaking hands before you peruse my sites.
Clint Bradford, K6LCS http://www.k6lcs.com _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
So, whether you call it censorship or abridging, what the AMSAT BoD has done is censorship ...
Last time I looked, AMSAT was not an arm of the United States government.
They are not censoring anyone. They are moderating and controlling their messagegroups. This is a private party - NOT a government-run entity.
People love screaming, "Censorship!!!' any time they perceive they've been wronged. But read the rules of membership in this newsgroup. And you have the choice to "open the door," enter, and be welcomed, or not be a member.
I dare say there's no one here who has been involved in online legal issues and telecommunications law than I have (1990). And what AMSAT is doing doesn't infringe upon my rights in any manner.
Background and history of your online rights and responsibilities is available at ... http://www.eff.org
Clint, K6LCS
Sounds like a good definition for "elitist" rule to me, however you coat something, remember at the core is the seed you began with, if all you are looking for is "yea" Sayers then "moderating" a BB is an excellent beginning.
De KD1PE
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Clint Bradford" clintbrad4d@earthlink.net Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 3:37 PM To: "Joel Black" jbblack68@gmail.com Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: It's NOT Censorship
So, whether you call it censorship or abridging, what the AMSAT BoD has done is censorship ...
Last time I looked, AMSAT was not an arm of the United States government.
They are not censoring anyone. They are moderating and controlling their messagegroups. This is a private party - NOT a government-run entity.
People love screaming, "Censorship!!!' any time they perceive they've been wronged. But read the rules of membership in this newsgroup. And you have the choice to "open the door," enter, and be welcomed, or not be a member.
I dare say there's no one here who has been involved in online legal issues and telecommunications law than I have (1990). And what AMSAT is doing doesn't infringe upon my rights in any manner.
Background and history of your online rights and responsibilities is available at ... http://www.eff.org
Clint, K6LCS
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I guess this is as good a time to say this as any...
Ummm... if AMSAT is going to only allow "yea" sayers then would your message have made it through?
Have a nice day!
Eric W4OTN
On 01/15/2010 06:08 PM, Jack K. wrote:
Sounds like a good definition for "elitist" rule to me, however you coat something, remember at the core is the seed you began with, if all you are looking for is "yea" Sayers then "moderating" a BB is an excellent beginning.
De KD1PE
It's not altogether surprising that this topic is being discussed but really folks, lets look at the facts!
The whole issue revolves around just a few members/posters who continually try and push the boundaries on what is a large list with respected and influential members all over the World.
We all know who they are; the ones that immediately post a facetious reply to a newbie question, the ones that post one line,or worse still, one word answers that are ambiguous at best and downright rude at worst; the ones that take childish delight in trying to elicit the maximum controversy with seemingly innocuous postings. We know who they are and they know who they are and the laws of defamation restrict me in naming them!
There is a delete key on your keyboard; there are message filters built in to your e-mail client and if you really get offended then there is always the "un-subscribe" route.
But if anyone on the list ever gets to having to be warned by AMSAT about their conduct on the BB or worse still, be faced with suspension/expulsion from the list then shame on you!
For the most part we are all responsible adults involved in a fairly expensive hobby (note "hobby") that is both highly technical and to most people, quite complicated. If anyone feels that they can do a better job than anyone on the current Board then by all means file a motion of no confidence and see how many fully paid up members back you.
Put up or shut up.
That we have even had to come to an Acceptable Use Policy for this board should make certain members/posters question whether they should even be members.
Rant over
David KG4ZLB
At 02:09 PM 1/15/2010, David - KG4ZLB wrote:
It's not altogether surprising that this topic is being discussed but really folks, lets look at the facts!
The whole issue revolves around just a few members/posters who continually try and push the boundaries on what is a large list with respected and influential members all over the World.
We all know who they are; the ones that immediately post a facetious reply to a newbie question, the ones that post one line,or worse still, one word answers that are ambiguous at best and downright rude at worst; the ones that take childish delight in trying to elicit the maximum controversy with seemingly innocuous postings. We know who they are and they know who they are and the laws of defamation restrict me in naming them!
There is a delete key on your keyboard; there are message filters built in to your e-mail client and if you really get offended then there is always the "un-subscribe" route.
But if anyone on the list ever gets to having to be warned by AMSAT about their conduct on the BB or worse still, be faced with suspension/expulsion from the list then shame on you!
For the most part we are all responsible adults involved in a fairly expensive hobby (note "hobby") that is both highly technical and to most people, quite complicated. If anyone feels that they can do a better job than anyone on the current Board then by all means file a motion of no confidence and see how many fully paid up members back you.
Put up or shut up.
That we have even had to come to an Acceptable Use Policy for this board should make certain members/posters question whether they should even be members.
Rant over
David KG4ZLB
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
My Delete key is overheating...tell you anything? Those that do not cause rules have nothing to worry about. Those that the rules were made for ...well....I have a delete key ;-) I am way too busy in my "hobby" to bother with lurkers or naysayers. For a clue look at my website. Genuine , respectful debate will not be censored.
73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 ====================================== BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com 500-KHz/CW, 144-MHz EME, 1296-MHz EME DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubususa@hotmail.com ======================================
lol
Robert WB5MZO life member
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 16:55:09 -0900 To: kg4zlb@gmail.com; amsat-bb@amsat.org From: kl7uw@acsalaska.net Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: It's NOT Censorship
At 02:09 PM 1/15/2010, David - KG4ZLB wrote:
It's not altogether surprising that this topic is being discussed but really folks, lets look at the facts!
The whole issue revolves around just a few members/posters who continually try and push the boundaries on what is a large list with respected and influential members all over the World.
We all know who they are; the ones that immediately post a facetious reply to a newbie question, the ones that post one line,or worse still, one word answers that are ambiguous at best and downright rude at worst; the ones that take childish delight in trying to elicit the maximum controversy with seemingly innocuous postings. We know who they are and they know who they are and the laws of defamation restrict me in naming them!
There is a delete key on your keyboard; there are message filters built in to your e-mail client and if you really get offended then there is always the "un-subscribe" route.
But if anyone on the list ever gets to having to be warned by AMSAT about their conduct on the BB or worse still, be faced with suspension/expulsion from the list then shame on you!
For the most part we are all responsible adults involved in a fairly expensive hobby (note "hobby") that is both highly technical and to most people, quite complicated. If anyone feels that they can do a better job than anyone on the current Board then by all means file a motion of no confidence and see how many fully paid up members back you.
Put up or shut up.
That we have even had to come to an Acceptable Use Policy for this board should make certain members/posters question whether they should even be members.
Rant over
David KG4ZLB
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
My Delete key is overheating...tell you anything? Those that do not cause rules have nothing to worry about. Those that the rules were made for ...well....I have a delete key ;-) I am way too busy in my "hobby" to bother with lurkers or naysayers. For a clue look at my website. Genuine , respectful debate will not be censored.
73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com 500-KHz/CW, 144-MHz EME, 1296-MHz EME DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubususa@hotmail.com ======================================
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/
Joel Black expunged (jbblack68@gmail.com):
What I disagree with is the statement, "AMSAT is not 'censoring' anyone."
Now, I'm no lawyer by any stretch, but I can read. Censoring is limiting speech based on what one finds objectionable. What is objectionable is completely subjective.
When you are using the private resources of the AMSAT corporation, they can do whatever they like.
That's not censorship, that's protecting their own resources.
I, for one, welcome our new mailing list overlords :)
-Steve
N1JFU - http://n1jfu.blogspot.com - smeuse@twitter
Steve Meuse wrote:
When you are using the private resources of the AMSAT corporation, they can do whatever they like.
That's not censorship, that's protecting their own resources.
I, for one, welcome our new mailing list overlords :)
-Steve
Spot on Steve, along with David's earlier post.
Hell, we even allow non-members to complain about the free services we provide. Just keep it civil and productive. Look at this thread and you'll find at least one already who's never been a paying member.
73, Drew KO4MA
PS I voted yes for the AUP, and probably pushed hardest for it to be implemented. Feel free to vote me out or run against me next election if you object. And if you are a member. Personal communications has been about 20 to 1 in favor of the taming of -bb.
Hi All,
I mostly just read the messages on the -bb, I don't post one very often. But I just wanted to offer my support for the AUP also. It has been needed for a long time. The problem people on here need to quit making problems, and just take action if they think they can do better. Run for BoD or whatever to shape the group into what they would like to see instead of crying about how things are ran now.
73 de Tim KG8OC Life Member
On Jan 15, 2010, at 7:29 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:
Steve Meuse wrote:
When you are using the private resources of the AMSAT corporation, they can do whatever they like.
That's not censorship, that's protecting their own resources.
I, for one, welcome our new mailing list overlords :)
-Steve
Spot on Steve, along with David's earlier post.
Hell, we even allow non-members to complain about the free services we provide. Just keep it civil and productive. Look at this thread and you'll find at least one already who's never been a paying member.
73, Drew KO4MA
PS I voted yes for the AUP, and probably pushed hardest for it to be implemented. Feel free to vote me out or run against me next election if you object. And if you are a member. Personal communications has been about 20 to 1 in favor of the taming of -bb. _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Right on Steve!!!!
73, Bob, K1REM
-----Original Message----- From: amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org]On Behalf Of Steve Meuse Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 7:11 PM To: Joel Black Cc: Clint Bradford; amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: It's NOT Censorship
Joel Black expunged (jbblack68@gmail.com):
What I disagree with is the statement, "AMSAT is not 'censoring' anyone."
Now, I'm no lawyer by any stretch, but I can read. Censoring is limiting speech based on what one finds objectionable. What is objectionable is completely subjective.
When you are using the private resources of the AMSAT corporation, they can do whatever they like.
That's not censorship, that's protecting their own resources.
I, for one, welcome our new mailing list overlords :)
-Steve
N1JFU - http://n1jfu.blogspot.com - smeuse@twitter
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
When you are using the private resources of the AMSAT corporation, they can do whatever they like.
-Steve
N1JFU - http://n1jfu.blogspot.com - smeuse@twitter
that probably holds true (I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV but I have been associated in a governing capacity with "Amsat like" organizations, much larger ones in fact) as long as one is "not a member". If you are a member however, not so much.
Robert WB5MZO life member _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390710/direct/01/
participants (13)
-
Andrew Glasbrenner -
Bob Martinson -
Bob McGwier -
Clint Bradford -
David - KG4ZLB -
Edward Cole -
Eric Christensen -
Jack K. -
Joel Black -
Peter Scheller -
Rocky Jones -
Steve Meuse -
Timothy Pickett