Proximity to grid line boundary
For my information, as I am not much of a rover, but as I may be doing a little local grid rove sometime next weekend by request, how far from a grid boundary can you be for it to count? I found a 4 corners grid boundary in my area, but it is way rural in a deep clump of vegetation with a dirt road a couple hundred feet away. What is the maximum deviation from an X .000000; Y.000000 location for it to be legal as a 4 grid location? I will probably do a much easier 2 grid line location, but just wondering.
Thanks much.
Tom Schuessler, N5HYP EM12ms
The VUCC rules ( http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Awards/VUCC%20Rules%20April%202020.pdf) state:
(F) Grid boundary lines and grid corners must be established using a GPS receiver whose map datum is set to WGS84, the global default for curif nt GPS receivers. The GPS receiver should be set to use WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System) if so equipped, since this improves the error figure to as little as 5 feet. In no case may the GPS receiver show an error figure in excess of 20 feet. Any modern GPS receiver equipped with WAAS will easily meet this requirement, as will most older units without WAAS.
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 12:37 Tom Schuessler, N5HYP via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
For my information, as I am not much of a rover, but as I may be doing a little local grid rove sometime next weekend by request, how far from a grid boundary can you be for it to count? I found a 4 corners grid boundary in my area, but it is way rural in a deep clump of vegetation with a dirt road a couple hundred feet away. What is the maximum deviation from an X .000000; Y.000000 location for it to be legal as a 4 grid location? I will probably do a much easier 2 grid line location, but just wondering.
Thanks much.
Tom Schuessler, N5HYP EM12ms
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
You should operate at the spot where your GPS receiver (using the settings/rules that Don highlighted) reads out *.000000 for a line or *.000000, *.000000 for a corner.
73, Michael, N4DCW
--
Michael Whitman michael@n4dcw.com Home Grid: EM78
On Aug 29, 2020, at 12:46 PM, Don KB2YSI via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
The VUCC rules ( http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Awards/VUCC%20Rules%20April%202020.pdf) state:
(F) Grid boundary lines and grid corners must be established using a GPS receiver whose map datum is set to WGS84, the global default for curif nt GPS receivers. The GPS receiver should be set to use WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System) if so equipped, since this improves the error figure to as little as 5 feet. In no case may the GPS receiver show an error figure in excess of 20 feet. Any modern GPS receiver equipped with WAAS will easily meet this requirement, as will most older units without WAAS.
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 12:37 Tom Schuessler, N5HYP via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
For my information, as I am not much of a rover, but as I may be doing a little local grid rove sometime next weekend by request, how far from a grid boundary can you be for it to count? I found a 4 corners grid boundary in my area, but it is way rural in a deep clump of vegetation with a dirt road a couple hundred feet away. What is the maximum deviation from an X .000000; Y.000000 location for it to be legal as a 4 grid location? I will probably do a much easier 2 grid line location, but just wondering.
Thanks much.
Tom Schuessler, N5HYP EM12ms
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Which is obviously why it is a lot harder to hit a 4 corners location because it will invariably plop you in a grove of dense vegetation. I will stick with the two grid on the line on a main rod thing because I can get it right.
From: Michael Whitman michael@n4dcw.com Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 11:54 AM To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Cc: Don KB2YSI kb2ysi@gmail.com; Tom Schuessler tjschuessler@verizon.net Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Proximity to grid line boundary
You should operate at the spot where your GPS receiver (using the settings/rules that Don highlighted) reads out *.000000 for a line or *.000000, *.000000 for a corner.
73, Michael, N4DCW
--
Michael Whitman mailto:michael@n4dcw.com Home Grid: EM78
On Aug 29, 2020, at 12:46 PM, Don KB2YSI via AMSAT-BB mailto:amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
The VUCC rules ( http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Awards/VUCC%20Rules%20April%202020.pdf) state:
(F) Grid boundary lines and grid corners must be established using a GPS receiver whose map datum is set to WGS84, the global default for curif nt GPS receivers. The GPS receiver should be set to use WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System) if so equipped, since this improves the error figure to as little as 5 feet. In no case may the GPS receiver show an error figure in excess of 20 feet. Any modern GPS receiver equipped with WAAS will easily meet this requirement, as will most older units without WAAS.
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 12:37 Tom Schuessler, N5HYP via AMSAT-BB < mailto:amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
For my information, as I am not much of a rover, but as I may be doing a little local grid rove sometime next weekend by request, how far from a grid boundary can you be for it to count? I found a 4 corners grid boundary in my area, but it is way rural in a deep clump of vegetation with a dirt road a couple hundred feet away. What is the maximum deviation from an X .000000; Y.000000 location for it to be legal as a 4 grid location? I will probably do a much easier 2 grid line location, but just wondering.
Thanks much.
Tom Schuessler, N5HYP EM12ms
_______________________________________________ Sent via mailto:AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via mailto:AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Just out of curiosity, how do the rules for states? I tried to activate 3 states from a three-state boundary where there was a marker. (It did not work because of the same problem--trees and grass) but I'm wondering if the marker would be sufficient evidence? Depends who placed it, I suppose?
This was for an informal 'contest' but for something like WAS, I can imagine it would be important.
Burns WB1FJ
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 1:24 PM Tom Schuessler, N5HYP via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Which is obviously why it is a lot harder to hit a 4 corners location because it will invariably plop you in a grove of dense vegetation. I will stick with the two grid on the line on a main rod thing because I can get it right.
From: Michael Whitman michael@n4dcw.com Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 11:54 AM To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Cc: Don KB2YSI kb2ysi@gmail.com; Tom Schuessler < tjschuessler@verizon.net> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Proximity to grid line boundary
You should operate at the spot where your GPS receiver (using the settings/rules that Don highlighted) reads out *.000000 for a line or *.000000, *.000000 for a corner.
73, Michael, N4DCW
--
Michael Whitman mailto:michael@n4dcw.com Home Grid: EM78
On Aug 29, 2020, at 12:46 PM, Don KB2YSI via AMSAT-BB mailto:amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
The VUCC rules ( http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Awards/VUCC%20Rules%20April%202020.pdf) state:
(F) Grid boundary lines and grid corners must be established using a GPS receiver whose map datum is set to WGS84, the global default for curif nt GPS receivers. The GPS receiver should be set to use WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System) if so equipped, since this improves the error figure to as little as 5 feet. In no case may the GPS receiver show an error figure in excess of 20 feet. Any modern GPS receiver equipped with WAAS will easily meet this requirement, as will most older units without WAAS.
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 12:37 Tom Schuessler, N5HYP via AMSAT-BB < mailto:amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
For my information, as I am not much of a rover, but as I may be doing a little local grid rove sometime next weekend by request, how far from a grid boundary can you be for it to count? I found a 4 corners grid boundary in my area, but it is way rural in a deep clump of vegetation with a dirt road a couple hundred feet away. What is the maximum deviation from an X .000000; Y.000000 location for it to be legal as a 4 grid location? I will probably do a much easier 2 grid line location, but just wondering.
Thanks much.
Tom Schuessler, N5HYP EM12ms
Sent via mailto:AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via mailto:AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi Burns!
The WAS rules do not go into detail about operating on state boundaries, like we see in the VUCC rules about operating from grid boundaries and intersections. WAS rules seem to be more concerned about the location of the stations working toward a WAS award:
"Contacts must be made from same location, or from locations no two of which are more than 50 miles (80 kilometers) apart."
(from http://www.arrl.org/was )
I look for either markers or signs showing the boundaries. Then I set up either next to those signs, or in between the signs for those states. Sometimes there are markers on the boundaries, which makes this a little easier. Then I take pictures of my station, just like I would to satisfy VUCC requirements to document a station on a grid line or intersection. This includes my 2015 trip before the AMSAT Symposium in Dayton, when I operated from the Indiana/Michigan/Ohio tripoint:
https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=62129
I wrote about my operation from this tripoint as part of an article in the January 2016 AMSAT Journal. The article included a picture of me standing on the tripoint, in the middle of a very quiet road where the tripoint marker is located.
73!
Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK http://www.wd9ewk.net/ Twitter: @WD9EWK or http://twitter.com/WD9EWK
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 7:09 PM Burns Fisher via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how do the rules for states? I tried to activate 3 states from a three-state boundary where there was a marker. (It did not work because of the same problem--trees and grass) but I'm wondering if the marker would be sufficient evidence? Depends who placed it, I suppose?
This was for an informal 'contest' but for something like WAS, I can imagine it would be important.
Burns WB1FJ
Thanks, Patrick. I was doing the state activation for AMSAT 50th anniversary and very close to the tripoint for MA, CT, RI. There was a marker there, but I never could have reached a satellite :-)
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 6:33 PM Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) < amsat-bb@wd9ewk.net> wrote:
Hi Burns!
The WAS rules do not go into detail about operating on state boundaries, like we see in the VUCC rules about operating from grid boundaries and intersections. WAS rules seem to be more concerned about the location of the stations working toward a WAS award:
"Contacts must be made from same location, or from locations no two of which are more than 50 miles (80 kilometers) apart."
(from http://www.arrl.org/was )
I look for either markers or signs showing the boundaries. Then I set up either next to those signs, or in between the signs for those states. Sometimes there are markers on the boundaries, which makes this a little easier. Then I take pictures of my station, just like I would to satisfy VUCC requirements to document a station on a grid line or intersection. This includes my 2015 trip before the AMSAT Symposium in Dayton, when I operated from the Indiana/Michigan/Ohio tripoint:
https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=62129
I wrote about my operation from this tripoint as part of an article in the January 2016 AMSAT Journal. The article included a picture of me standing on the tripoint, in the middle of a very quiet road where the tripoint marker is located.
73!
Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK http://www.wd9ewk.net/ Twitter: @WD9EWK or http://twitter.com/WD9EWK
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 7:09 PM Burns Fisher via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how do the rules for states? I tried to activate 3 states from a three-state boundary where there was a marker. (It did not work because of the same problem--trees and grass) but I'm wondering if the marker would be sufficient evidence? Depends who placed it, I suppose?
This was for an informal 'contest' but for something like WAS, I can imagine it would be important.
Burns WB1FJ
Hi Tom- I helped overhaul the VUCC rules when I was at ARRL HQ.
This paragraph spells it out:
"Stations who claim to operate from more than one grid locator simultaneously (i.e., from the boundary between two grid locators or from the intersection of four grid locators) must be physically present in all locators to give multiple locator credit with a single contact. These stations should be prepared to validate their claim. For a mobile station, this means parking the vehicle exactly on the line or corner. For a portable station, this means that the total area occupied by the station's physical setup, including operating position(s), power source(s), and antenna(s), must occupy some portion of each of the two/four grid squares simultaneously. Operators of boundary/corner stations should be prepared to provide evidence of meeting the simultaneous occupation test if called upon to do so. Two photographs -- one showing the placement of the GPS receiver in the station setup, and a close-up legibly showing the GPS reading – are typically needed as evidence of compliance. Video footage showing an overview of the operating site and then, uncut and in real time, zooming in on the GPS display coordinates is even better." Sean Kutzko Amateur Radio KX9XAMSAT Volunteer Coordinatorhttps://amsat.org/volunteer
On Saturday, August 29, 2020, 11:48:39 AM CDT, Don KB2YSI via AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org wrote:
The VUCC rules ( http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Awards/VUCC%20Rules%20April%202020.pdf) state:
(F) Grid boundary lines and grid corners must be established using a GPS receiver whose map datum is set to WGS84, the global default for curif nt GPS receivers. The GPS receiver should be set to use WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System) if so equipped, since this improves the error figure to as little as 5 feet. In no case may the GPS receiver show an error figure in excess of 20 feet. Any modern GPS receiver equipped with WAAS will easily meet this requirement, as will most older units without WAAS.
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 12:37 Tom Schuessler, N5HYP via AMSAT-BB < amsat-bb@amsat.org> wrote:
For my information, as I am not much of a rover, but as I may be doing a little local grid rove sometime next weekend by request, how far from a grid boundary can you be for it to count? I found a 4 corners grid boundary in my area, but it is way rural in a deep clump of vegetation with a dirt road a couple hundred feet away. What is the maximum deviation from an X .000000; Y.000000 location for it to be legal as a 4 grid location? I will probably do a much easier 2 grid line location, but just wondering.
Thanks much.
Tom Schuessler, N5HYP EM12ms
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (6)
-
Burns Fisher -
Don KB2YSI -
Michael Whitman -
Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) -
Sean K. -
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