Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Just like rare DX Zach...you must be a great operator on HF too...Ugh!
73 John KI4RO
On 12/12/17 14:25, John KI4RO wrote:
Just like rare DX Zach...you must be a great operator on HF too...Ugh!
73 John KI4RO
John,
I generally avoid 160 meters, as there are too many on there who resort to disparaging insults.
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
Zach,
Do you avoid Satellites too? I've looked thru my logs and I don't have your call in there. I've asked a few other prolific ops and they lack a QSO with you as well. Just curious why the strong feelings on Item 6 if you're not active on the birds.
73,
Dave, KG5CCI
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Zach Metzinger zmetzing@pobox.com wrote:
On 12/12/17 14:25, John KI4RO wrote:
Just like rare DX Zach...you must be a great operator on HF too...Ugh!
73 John KI4RO
John,
I generally avoid 160 meters, as there are too many on there who resort to disparaging insults.
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I don’t have him on my logs either.
Jeff WE4B
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017, David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com wrote:
Zach,
Do you avoid Satellites too? I've looked thru my logs and I don't have your call in there. I've asked a few other prolific ops and they lack a QSO with you as well. Just curious why the strong feelings on Item 6 if you're not active on the birds.
73,
Dave, KG5CCI
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Zach Metzinger zmetzing@pobox.com wrote:
On 12/12/17 14:25, John KI4RO wrote:
Just like rare DX Zach...you must be a great operator on HF too...Ugh!
73 John KI4RO
John,
I generally avoid 160 meters, as there are too many on there who resort to disparaging insults.
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I'll bite. As far as I can tell, there are 2 main reasons for working the satellites. Chasing grids and making contacts via space. This includes both these acts as well as the fun of overcoming the challenges of doing the same.
Maybe Zach has a third option that we haven't considered, one that is contrary to the grid hunt. Rag chews aren't really viable due to the limited resource and short time, but there could be something else.
73, Sean WA1TE
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017, 19:05 Jeff Johns jeff30339@gmail.com wrote:
I don’t have him on my logs either.
Jeff WE4B
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017, David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com wrote:
Zach,
Do you avoid Satellites too? I've looked thru my logs and I don't have
your
call in there. I've asked a few other prolific ops and they lack a QSO
with
you as well. Just curious why the strong feelings on Item 6 if you're not active on the birds.
73,
Dave, KG5CCI
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Zach Metzinger zmetzing@pobox.com wrote:
On 12/12/17 14:25, John KI4RO wrote:
Just like rare DX Zach...you must be a great operator on HF
too...Ugh!
73 John KI4RO
John,
I generally avoid 160 meters, as there are too many on there who resort to disparaging insults.
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of
AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I would hope that another reason for working the satellites is experimentation to broaden the applications of amateur satellites. This is seen, of late, with the resurgence of 'Experimenter's Wednesday' on AO-85. I would like to see more experimentation in other areas. Here are some examples and I'm sure that there are others:
o Use of LEO satellites for emergency response traffic (e.g. Narrow Band Emergency Messaging Software - NBEMS).
o Use/development of alternative modulation schemes on linear transponder satellites to enable more efficient use or lower the barrier to access (e.g. double-sideband modulation, digital voice, low-power digital modes).
o Development and test of homebrew satellite ground stations to lower the barrier to working amateur satellites (e.g. antenna systems, filters, amplifiers, full-duplex transceivers).
73,
Mac Cody - AE5PH
On 12/12/2017 06:36 PM, Sean Waite wrote:
I'll bite. As far as I can tell, there are 2 main reasons for working the satellites. Chasing grids and making contacts via space. This includes both these acts as well as the fun of overcoming the challenges of doing the same.
Maybe Zach has a third option that we haven't considered, one that is contrary to the grid hunt. Rag chews aren't really viable due to the limited resource and short time, but there could be something else.
73, Sean WA1TE
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017, 19:05 Jeff Johns jeff30339@gmail.com wrote:
I don’t have him on my logs either.
Jeff WE4B
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017, David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com wrote:
Zach,
Do you avoid Satellites too? I've looked thru my logs and I don't have
your
call in there. I've asked a few other prolific ops and they lack a QSO
with
you as well. Just curious why the strong feelings on Item 6 if you're not active on the birds.
73,
Dave, KG5CCI
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Zach Metzinger zmetzing@pobox.com wrote:
On 12/12/17 14:25, John KI4RO wrote:
Just like rare DX Zach...you must be a great operator on HF
too...Ugh!
73 John KI4RO
John,
I generally avoid 160 meters, as there are too many on there who resort to disparaging insults.
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of
AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
There's the "Doctor Who" reason:
Satellites are COOL.
-- Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG) email: devin@thecabal.org web: Devin on Earth cell: +1 425.239.2575
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Mac A. Cody Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 5:12 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
I would hope that another reason for working the satellites is experimentation to broaden the applications of amateur satellites. This is seen, of late, with the resurgence of 'Experimenter's Wednesday' on AO-85. I would like to see more experimentation in other areas. Here are some examples and I'm sure that there are others:
o Use of LEO satellites for emergency response traffic (e.g. Narrow Band Emergency Messaging Software - NBEMS).
o Use/development of alternative modulation schemes on linear transponder satellites to enable more efficient use or lower the barrier to access (e.g. double-sideband modulation, digital voice, low-power digital modes).
o Development and test of homebrew satellite ground stations to lower the barrier to working amateur satellites (e.g. antenna systems, filters, amplifiers, full-duplex transceivers).
73,
Mac Cody - AE5PH
On 12/12/2017 06:36 PM, Sean Waite wrote:
I'll bite. As far as I can tell, there are 2 main reasons for working the satellites. Chasing grids and making contacts via space. This includes both these acts as well as the fun of overcoming the challenges of doing the same.
Maybe Zach has a third option that we haven't considered, one that is contrary to the grid hunt. Rag chews aren't really viable due to the limited resource and short time, but there could be something else.
73, Sean WA1TE
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017, 19:05 Jeff Johns jeff30339@gmail.com wrote:
I don’t have him on my logs either.
Jeff WE4B
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017, David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com wrote:
Zach,
Do you avoid Satellites too? I've looked thru my logs and I don't have
your
call in there. I've asked a few other prolific ops and they lack a QSO
with
you as well. Just curious why the strong feelings on Item 6 if you're not active on the birds.
73,
Dave, KG5CCI
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Zach Metzinger zmetzing@pobox.com wrote:
On 12/12/17 14:25, John KI4RO wrote:
Just like rare DX Zach...you must be a great operator on HF
too...Ugh!
73 John KI4RO
John,
I generally avoid 160 meters, as there are too many on there who resort to disparaging insults.
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of
AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Bow ties are cool, too.
So we have a bunch of other uses for the birds. How does this fit into rule 6? Do rare grids make way for DX? Does DX make way for NBEMS?
I'm new to the satellite game, so I don't really have an opinion, but maybe there is more discussion here than a simple dismissal. Maybe not. Almost every grid is a new grid for me.
Sean WA1TE
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017, 20:31 Devin L. Ganger devin@thecabal.org wrote:
There's the "Doctor Who" reason:
Satellites are COOL.
-- Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG) email: devin@thecabal.org web: Devin on Earth cell: +1 425.239.2575
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Mac A. Cody Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 5:12 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
I would hope that another reason for working the satellites is experimentation to broaden the applications of amateur satellites. This is seen, of late, with the resurgence of 'Experimenter's Wednesday' on AO-85. I would like to see more experimentation in other areas. Here are some examples and I'm sure that there are others:
o Use of LEO satellites for emergency response traffic (e.g. Narrow Band Emergency Messaging Software - NBEMS).
o Use/development of alternative modulation schemes on linear transponder satellites to enable more efficient use or lower the barrier to access (e.g. double-sideband modulation, digital voice, low-power digital modes).
o Development and test of homebrew satellite ground stations to lower the barrier to working amateur satellites (e.g. antenna systems, filters, amplifiers, full-duplex transceivers).
73,
Mac Cody - AE5PH
On 12/12/2017 06:36 PM, Sean Waite wrote:
I'll bite. As far as I can tell, there are 2 main reasons for working the satellites. Chasing grids and making contacts via space. This includes both these acts as well as the fun of overcoming the challenges of doing the same.
Maybe Zach has a third option that we haven't considered, one that is contrary to the grid hunt. Rag chews aren't really viable due to the limited resource and short time, but there could be something else.
73, Sean WA1TE
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017, 19:05 Jeff Johns jeff30339@gmail.com wrote:
I don’t have him on my logs either.
Jeff WE4B
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017, David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com wrote:
Zach,
Do you avoid Satellites too? I've looked thru my logs and I don't have
your
call in there. I've asked a few other prolific ops and they lack a QSO
with
you as well. Just curious why the strong feelings on Item 6 if you're not active on the birds.
73,
Dave, KG5CCI
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Zach Metzinger zmetzing@pobox.com wrote:
On 12/12/17 14:25, John KI4RO wrote:
Just like rare DX Zach...you must be a great operator on HF
too...Ugh!
73 John KI4RO
John,
I generally avoid 160 meters, as there are too many on there who resort to disparaging insults.
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of
AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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membership.
Opinions
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the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
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Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi all- Matthew NJ4Y and a few others put it more succinctly than I did: Item 6 in my document is about extending courtesy to a station that goes to the trouble of setting up away from their home or back yard. That can be for a demo, a special event station at a hamfest, or a rare grid. All item 6 is asking for is some consideration for that op's effort. I live in grid FN31. It's a very common location. I tend to focus on calling other stations on FM passes from Connecticut. I activate other grids from time to time. When I do so, I usually take a full-duplex linear station with me, so I can work the more capable stations on SSB. But I still work FM passes, because there are some stations that only have FM capability. Sometimes I only take an HT with me, and am limited to FM only. Here are a couple examples: This July, I was back home in Illinois, and did a few SO50 passes from the EM59/EM69 grid line with my HT and Arrow. EM69 is kind of rare (not sure why), so I was happy to hand it out. One pass, I made 17 QSOs. Another pass, W4FS was on as K2J from North Carolina for the 13 Colonies special event; we split the pass.... I took the first half, Tucker took the second. It all worked out just fine, with no advance planning or coordination. One night, I'd announced on Twitter I was going to the grid line for an SO50 pass. AA5UK was in the Cayman Islands, and announced he was able to make a quick trip to FK09, a very rare grid, but was only there for a day or so. His access to passes was very limited and his time was short. He was in a far rarer location than I was...he was going to be able to hand out a rare grid and possibly a new DXCC entity for many people, so I bailed out and let him take the pass. I went back to my grid line the next night, after AA5UK had left his rare spot. No skin off my nose, and I didn't interfere with people trying to work a much more enticing station than me. That kind of courtesy and awareness is all item 6 is advocating for. If a station is on from a different DXCC entity, a cruise ship handing out water grids, or doing a demo at a Scout Jamboree, throw 'em a bone. If you were the station of interest, I'd wager you would appreciate the opportunity. And of course, if a bona fide emergency pops up and a LEO is the only way a station can get a message out, then everybody else should stand by. Sean Kutzko Amateur Radio KX9X
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017, 9:15:55 PM EST, Sean Waite waisean@gmail.com wrote:
Bow ties are cool, too.
So we have a bunch of other uses for the birds. How does this fit into rule 6? Do rare grids make way for DX? Does DX make way for NBEMS?
I'm new to the satellite game, so I don't really have an opinion, but maybe there is more discussion here than a simple dismissal. Maybe not. Almost every grid is a new grid for me.
Sean WA1TE
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017, 20:31 Devin L. Ganger devin@thecabal.org wrote:
There's the "Doctor Who" reason:
Satellites are COOL.
-- Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG) email: devin@thecabal.org web: Devin on Earth cell: +1 425.239.2575
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Mac A. Cody Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 5:12 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
I would hope that another reason for working the satellites is experimentation to broaden the applications of amateur satellites. This is seen, of late, with the resurgence of 'Experimenter's Wednesday' on AO-85. I would like to see more experimentation in other areas. Here are some examples and I'm sure that there are others:
o Use of LEO satellites for emergency response traffic (e.g. Narrow Band Emergency Messaging Software - NBEMS).
o Use/development of alternative modulation schemes on linear transponder satellites to enable more efficient use or lower the barrier to access (e.g. double-sideband modulation, digital voice, low-power digital modes).
o Development and test of homebrew satellite ground stations to lower the barrier to working amateur satellites (e.g. antenna systems, filters, amplifiers, full-duplex transceivers).
73,
Mac Cody - AE5PH
On 12/12/2017 06:36 PM, Sean Waite wrote:
I'll bite. As far as I can tell, there are 2 main reasons for working the satellites. Chasing grids and making contacts via space. This includes both these acts as well as the fun of overcoming the challenges of doing the same.
Maybe Zach has a third option that we haven't considered, one that is contrary to the grid hunt. Rag chews aren't really viable due to the limited resource and short time, but there could be something else.
73, Sean WA1TE
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017, 19:05 Jeff Johns jeff30339@gmail.com wrote:
I don’t have him on my logs either.
Jeff WE4B
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017, David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com wrote:
Zach,
Do you avoid Satellites too? I've looked thru my logs and I don't have
your
call in there. I've asked a few other prolific ops and they lack a QSO
with
you as well. Just curious why the strong feelings on Item 6 if you're not active on the birds.
73,
Dave, KG5CCI
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Zach Metzinger zmetzing@pobox.com wrote:
On 12/12/17 14:25, John KI4RO wrote:
Just like rare DX Zach...you must be a great operator on HF
too...Ugh!
73 John KI4RO
John,
I generally avoid 160 meters, as there are too many on there who resort to disparaging insults.
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
membership.
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of
AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
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Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a handful of individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite waisean@gmail.com, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators Hi all- Matthew NJ4Y and a few others put it more succinctly than I did: Item 6 in my document is about extending courtesy to a station that goes to the trouble of setting up away from their home or back yard. That can be for a demo, a special event station at a hamfest, or a rare grid. All item 6 is asking for is some consideration for that op's effort. I live in grid FN31. It's a very common location. I tend to focus on calling other stations on FM passes from Connecticut. I activate other grids from time to time. When I do so, I usually take a full-duplex linear station with me, so I can work the more capable stations on SSB. But I still work FM passes, because there are some stations that only have FM capability. Sometimes I only take an HT with me, and am limited to FM only. Here are a couple examples: This July, I was back home in Illinois, and did a few SO50 passes from the EM59/EM69 grid line with my HT and Arrow. EM69 is kind of rare (not sure why), so I was happy to hand it out. One pass, I made 17 QSOs. Another pass, W4FS was on as K2J from North Carolina for the 13 Colonies special event; we split the pass.... I took the first half, Tucker took the second. It all worked out just fine, with no advance planning or coordination. One night, I'd announced on Twitter I was going to the grid line for an SO50 pass. AA5UK was in the Cayman Islands, and announced he was able to make a quick trip to FK09, a very rare grid, but was only there for a day or so. His access to passes was very limited and his time was short. He was in a far rarer location than I was...he was going to be able to hand out a rare grid and possibly a new DXCC entity for many people, so I bailed out and let him take the pass. I went back to my grid line the next night, after AA5UK had left his rare spot. No skin off my nose, and I didn't interfere with people trying to work a much more enticing station than me. That kind of courtesy and awareness is all item 6 is advocating for. If a station is on from a different DXCC entity, a cruise ship handing out water grids, or doing a demo at a Scout Jamboree, throw 'em a bone. If you were the station of interest, I'd wager you would appreciate the opportunity. And of course, if a bona fide emergency pops up and a LEO is the only way a station can get a message out, then everybody else should stand by. Sean Kutzko Amateur Radio KX9X
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017, 9:15:55 PM EST, Sean Waite waisean@gmail.com wrote:
Bow ties are cool, too.
So we have a bunch of other uses for the birds. How does this fit into rule 6? Do rare grids make way for DX? Does DX make way for NBEMS?
I'm new to the satellite game, so I don't really have an opinion, but maybe there is more discussion here than a simple dismissal. Maybe not. Almost every grid is a new grid for me.
Sean WA1TE
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017, 20:31 Devin L. Ganger devin@thecabal.org wrote:
There's the "Doctor Who" reason:
Satellites are COOL.
-- Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG) email: devin@thecabal.org web: Devin on Earth cell: +1 425.239.2575
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Mac A. Cody Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 5:12 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
I would hope that another reason for working the satellites is experimentation to broaden the applications of amateur satellites. This is seen, of late, with the resurgence of 'Experimenter's Wednesday' on AO-85. I would like to see more experimentation in other areas. Here are some examples and I'm sure that there are others:
o Use of LEO satellites for emergency response traffic (e.g. Narrow Band Emergency Messaging Software - NBEMS).
o Use/development of alternative modulation schemes on linear transponder satellites to enable more efficient use or lower the barrier to access (e.g. double-sideband modulation, digital voice, low-power digital modes).
o Development and test of homebrew satellite ground stations to lower the barrier to working amateur satellites (e.g. antenna systems, filters, amplifiers, full-duplex transceivers).
73,
Mac Cody - AE5PH
On 12/12/2017 06:36 PM, Sean Waite wrote:
I'll bite. As far as I can tell, there are 2 main reasons for working the satellites. Chasing grids and making contacts via space. This includes both these acts as well as the fun of overcoming the challenges of doing the same.
Maybe Zach has a third option that we haven't considered, one that is contrary to the grid hunt. Rag chews aren't really viable due to the limited resource and short time, but there could be something else.
73, Sean WA1TE
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017, 19:05 Jeff Johns jeff30339@gmail.com wrote:
I don’t have him on my logs either.
Jeff WE4B
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017, David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com wrote:
Zach,
Do you avoid Satellites too? I've looked thru my logs and I don't have
your
call in there. I've asked a few other prolific ops and they lack a QSO
with
you as well. Just curious why the strong feelings on Item 6 if you're not active on the birds.
73,
Dave, KG5CCI
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Zach Metzinger zmetzing@pobox.com wrote:
On 12/12/17 14:25, John KI4RO wrote:
Just like rare DX Zach...you must be a great operator on HF
too...Ugh!
73 John KI4RO
John,
I generally avoid 160 meters, as there are too many on there who resort to disparaging insults.
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
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I proposed suggested guidelines. These are guidelines, not rules set in stone by AMSAT leadership. Similar operating guidelines have been proposed by other areas of ham radio, such as the DX Code of Conduct. Not everybody adheres to those suggestions, either, to the detriment of the DX pileup (in my opinion). FM satellites are open to all. There has been a chronic issue with FM satellites being congested, and in some cases, misused. This is discouraging to operators who take the trouble to go elsewhere to operate, either to hand out rare grids to other satellite users, or to put on a demonstration. The more experienced operators often use the SSB sats to avoid these very issues. Not everybody has that option. Part of this is stewardship; an attempt to find a solution to the congestion issues that exist on the FM satellites (and have for quite some time). If this trend continues, my concern is the more experienced operators will simply go to the SSB sats, leaving newcomers to fend for themselves on FM. With no understanding of (or in some cases, interest in) sharing an FM sat pass, new users will get discouraged because they can't work anybody and give up. I don't believe anybody wants that to happen.
Sean Kutzko Amateur Radio KX9X
On Wednesday, December 13, 2017, 7:46:02 AM EST, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a handful of individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" amsat-bb@amsat.org Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite waisean@gmail.com, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators Hi all- Matthew NJ4Y and a few others put it more succinctly than I did: Item 6 in my document is about extending courtesy to a station that goes to the trouble of setting up away from their home or back yard. That can be for a demo, a special event station at a hamfest, or a rare grid. All item 6 is asking for is some consideration for that op's effort. I live in grid FN31. It's a very common location. I tend to focus on calling other stations on FM passes from Connecticut. I activate other grids from time to time. When I do so, I usually take a full-duplex linear station with me, so I can work the more capable stations on SSB. But I still work FM passes, because there are some stations that only have FM capability. Sometimes I only take an HT with me, and am limited to FM only. Here are a couple examples: This July, I was back home in Illinois, and did a few SO50 passes from the EM59/EM69 grid line with my HT and Arrow. EM69 is kind of rare (not sure why), so I was happy to hand it out. One pass, I made 17 QSOs. Another pass, W4FS was on as K2J from North Carolina for the 13 Colonies special event; we split the pass.... I took the first half, Tucker took the second. It all worked out just fine, with no advance planning or coordination. One night, I'd announced on Twitter I was going to the grid line for an SO50 pass. AA5UK was in the Cayman Islands, and announced he was able to make a quick trip to FK09, a very rare grid, but was only there for a day or so. His access to passes was very limited and his time was short. He was in a far rarer location than I was...he was going to be able to hand out a rare grid and possibly a new DXCC entity for many people, so I bailed out and let him take the pass. I went back to my grid line the next night, after AA5UK had left his rare spot. No skin off my nose, and I didn't interfere with people trying to work a much more enticing station than me. That kind of courtesy and awareness is all item 6 is advocating for. If a station is on from a different DXCC entity, a cruise ship handing out water grids, or doing a demo at a Scout Jamboree, throw 'em a bone. If you were the station of interest, I'd wager you would appreciate the opportunity. And of course, if a bona fide emergency pops up and a LEO is the only way a station can get a message out, then everybody else should stand by. Sean Kutzko Amateur Radio KX9X
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017, 9:15:55 PM EST, Sean Waite waisean@gmail.com wrote:
Bow ties are cool, too.
So we have a bunch of other uses for the birds. How does this fit into rule 6? Do rare grids make way for DX? Does DX make way for NBEMS?
I'm new to the satellite game, so I don't really have an opinion, but maybe there is more discussion here than a simple dismissal. Maybe not. Almost every grid is a new grid for me.
Sean WA1TE
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017, 20:31 Devin L. Ganger devin@thecabal.org wrote:
There's the "Doctor Who" reason:
Satellites are COOL.
-- Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG) email: devin@thecabal.org web: Devin on Earth cell: +1 425.239.2575
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Mac A. Cody Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 5:12 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
I would hope that another reason for working the satellites is experimentation to broaden the applications of amateur satellites. This is seen, of late, with the resurgence of 'Experimenter's Wednesday' on AO-85. I would like to see more experimentation in other areas. Here are some examples and I'm sure that there are others:
o Use of LEO satellites for emergency response traffic (e.g. Narrow Band Emergency Messaging Software - NBEMS).
o Use/development of alternative modulation schemes on linear transponder satellites to enable more efficient use or lower the barrier to access (e.g. double-sideband modulation, digital voice, low-power digital modes).
o Development and test of homebrew satellite ground stations to lower the barrier to working amateur satellites (e.g. antenna systems, filters, amplifiers, full-duplex transceivers).
73,
Mac Cody - AE5PH
On 12/12/2017 06:36 PM, Sean Waite wrote:
I'll bite. As far as I can tell, there are 2 main reasons for working the satellites. Chasing grids and making contacts via space. This includes both these acts as well as the fun of overcoming the challenges of doing the same.
Maybe Zach has a third option that we haven't considered, one that is contrary to the grid hunt. Rag chews aren't really viable due to the limited resource and short time, but there could be something else.
73, Sean WA1TE
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017, 19:05 Jeff Johns jeff30339@gmail.com wrote:
I don’t have him on my logs either.
Jeff WE4B
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017, David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com wrote:
Zach,
Do you avoid Satellites too? I've looked thru my logs and I don't have
your
call in there. I've asked a few other prolific ops and they lack a QSO
with
you as well. Just curious why the strong feelings on Item 6 if you're not active on the birds.
73,
Dave, KG5CCI
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Zach Metzinger zmetzing@pobox.com wrote:
On 12/12/17 14:25, John KI4RO wrote:
Just like rare DX Zach...you must be a great operator on HF
too...Ugh!
73 John KI4RO
John,
I generally avoid 160 meters, as there are too many on there who resort to disparaging insults.
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
membership.
Opinions
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of
AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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Opinions
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the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
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Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Christopher,
I ask you the same question I asked another earlier in this thread: Do you actually operate on the Amateur Satellites? I have checked my logs, and I don't see you in them with your KG5JUP or your AA5EM call sign. Not saying it's possible I could have missed you, but 5000 logged AMSAT QSOs since 2014 and you're not in them makes a fairly compelling case. Sean is not trying pass a law by tyrannical decree here, he is an active operator who has made a lot of contacts and been on both the chasing side and the DX side of the QSO. He made a list of suggested guidelines based on his (and other active ops) experiences, and he did a bang up job with it too. If that rustles your jimmies too much, then maybe you should re-evaluate what you're expecting by belonging to an organization like AMSAT.
Also - for those that have been around since before AO-91 - please go back and reference the K0D operation I did with AC0RA last month. We activated 20 rares grids thru the Western Dakotas in 3 days. We only got on 3 FM passes the entire trip. I got a lot of flack from FM only operators for avoiding the repeater birds - but this thread is proof positive of exactly why we did it that way. If folks get upset over asking for some courtesy towards the rovers out there busting their tail off, that's fine. I for one am done chasing grids now that I've got my 488 confirmed - and plan to put some serious effort into roving the next few years. I'm happy to stick to the linear birds only when on the road, if treating AO91 "like the extra class" causes people to go to their safe spaces.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a handful of individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" < amsat-bb@amsat.org> Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite < waisean@gmail.com>, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators Hi all- Matthew NJ4Y and a few others put it more succinctly than I did: Item 6 in my document is about extending courtesy to a station that goes to the trouble of setting up away from their home or back yard. That can be for a demo, a special event station at a hamfest, or a rare grid. All item 6 is asking for is some consideration for that op's effort. I live in grid FN31. It's a very common location. I tend to focus on calling other stations on FM passes from Connecticut. I activate other grids from time to time. When I do so, I usually take a full-duplex linear station with me, so I can work the more capable stations on SSB. But I still work FM passes, because there are some stations that only have FM capability. Sometimes I only take an HT with me, and am limited to FM only. Here are a couple examples: This July, I was back home in Illinois, and did a few SO50 passes from the EM59/EM69 grid line with my HT and Arrow. EM69 is kind of rare (not sure why), so I was happy to hand it out. One pass, I made 17 QSOs. Another pass, W4FS was on as K2J from North Carolina for the 13 Colonies special event; we split the pass.... I took the first half, Tucker took the second. It all worked out just fine, with no advance planning or coordination. One night, I'd announced on Twitter I was going to the grid line for an SO50 pass. AA5UK was in the Cayman Islands, and announced he was able to make a quick trip to FK09, a very rare grid, but was only there for a day or so. His access to passes was very limited and his time was short. He was in a far rarer location than I was...he was going to be able to hand out a rare grid and possibly a new DXCC entity for many people, so I bailed out and let him take the pass. I went back to my grid line the next night, after AA5UK had left his rare spot. No skin off my nose, and I didn't interfere with people trying to work a much more enticing station than me. That kind of courtesy and awareness is all item 6 is advocating for. If a station is on from a different DXCC entity, a cruise ship handing out water grids, or doing a demo at a Scout Jamboree, throw 'em a bone. If you were the station of interest, I'd wager you would appreciate the opportunity. And of course, if a bona fide emergency pops up and a LEO is the only way a station can get a message out, then everybody else should stand by. Sean Kutzko Amateur Radio KX9X
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017, 9:15:55 PM EST, Sean Waite <waisean@gmail.com> wrote:
Bow ties are cool, too.
So we have a bunch of other uses for the birds. How does this fit into rule 6? Do rare grids make way for DX? Does DX make way for NBEMS?
I'm new to the satellite game, so I don't really have an opinion, but maybe there is more discussion here than a simple dismissal. Maybe not. Almost every grid is a new grid for me.
Sean WA1TE
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017, 20:31 Devin L. Ganger devin@thecabal.org wrote:
There's the "Doctor Who" reason:
Satellites are COOL.
-- Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG) email: devin@thecabal.org web: Devin on Earth cell: +1 425.239.2575
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Mac A. Cody Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 5:12 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
I would hope that another reason for working the satellites is experimentation to broaden the applications of amateur satellites. This
is
seen, of late, with the resurgence of 'Experimenter's Wednesday' on
AO-85.
I would like to see more experimentation in other areas. Here are some examples and I'm sure that there are others:
o Use of LEO satellites for emergency response traffic (e.g. Narrow Band Emergency Messaging Software - NBEMS).
o Use/development of alternative modulation schemes on linear transponder satellites to enable more efficient use or lower the barrier to access
(e.g.
double-sideband modulation, digital voice, low-power digital modes).
o Development and test of homebrew satellite ground stations to lower the barrier to working amateur satellites (e.g. antenna systems, filters, amplifiers, full-duplex transceivers).
73,
Mac Cody - AE5PH
On 12/12/2017 06:36 PM, Sean Waite wrote:
I'll bite. As far as I can tell, there are 2 main reasons for working the satellites. Chasing grids and making contacts via space. This includes both these acts as well as the fun of overcoming the challenges of doing the same.
Maybe Zach has a third option that we haven't considered, one that is contrary to the grid hunt. Rag chews aren't really viable due to the limited resource and short time, but there could be something else.
73, Sean WA1TE
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017, 19:05 Jeff Johns jeff30339@gmail.com wrote:
I don’t have him on my logs either.
Jeff WE4B
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017, David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com wrote:
Zach,
Do you avoid Satellites too? I've looked thru my logs and I don't have
your
call in there. I've asked a few other prolific ops and they lack a QSO
with
you as well. Just curious why the strong feelings on Item 6 if you're not active on the birds.
73,
Dave, KG5CCI
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Zach Metzinger zmetzing@pobox.com wrote:
On 12/12/17 14:25, John KI4RO wrote: > Just like rare DX Zach...you must be a great operator on HF
too...Ugh!
> 73 > John KI4RO John,
I generally avoid 160 meters, as there are too many on there who resort to disparaging insults.
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
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AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
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the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
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expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Dave,
Thanks for the good words about the reality of SAT operations.
Apparently, some people do not appreciate DX and/or Roving or Gridding QSOs on our Satellites. They don't realize or care that there is a LOT of time and expense involved with providing these contacts for other SAT users from rare locations.
Amazingly, it seems that some of the vocal folks are objecting to being reminded to use courtesy when the resources are busy with highly sought stations. There are very many SAT passes that are not busy at all. Is it that inconvenient to use those passes?
Even more amazing is that it has been pointed out that some of the objectors haven't been actual users of the Satellites. One would wonder why they are voicing objections in the first place.
Our hobby often has a problem getting folks to volunteer to do some of the needed tasks that we all would benefit from. Then, when someone steps forward to help with a needed task (writing an Operating Practice) there are folks that do nothing but complain about what that volunteer actually does! Go figure!!!
73 & Merry Christmas to ALL!!! de Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593)
________________________________ From: David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Christopher,
I ask you the same question I asked another earlier in this thread: Do you
actually operate on the Amateur Satellites? I have checked my logs, and I
don't see you in them with your KG5JUP or your AA5EM call sign. Not saying
it's possible I could have missed you, but 5000 logged AMSAT QSOs since
2014 and you're not in them makes a fairly compelling case. Sean is not
trying pass a law by tyrannical decree here, he is an active operator who
has made a lot of contacts and been on both the chasing side and the DX
side of the QSO. He made a list of suggested guidelines based on his (and
other active ops) experiences, and he did a bang up job with it too. If
that rustles your jimmies too much, then maybe you should re-evaluate what
you're expecting by belonging to an organization like AMSAT.
Also - for those that have been around since before AO-91 - please go back
and reference the K0D operation I did with AC0RA last month. We activated
20 rares grids thru the Western Dakotas in 3 days. We only got on 3 FM
passes the entire trip. I got a lot of flack from FM only operators for
avoiding the repeater birds - but this thread is proof positive of exactly
why we did it that way. If folks get upset over asking for some courtesy
towards the rovers out there busting their tail off, that's fine. I for one
am done chasing grids now that I've got my 488 confirmed - and plan to put
some serious effort into roving the next few years. I'm happy to stick to
the linear birds only when on the road, if treating AO91 "like the extra
class" causes people to go to their safe spaces.
-Dave, KG5CCI
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not
input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a handful of
individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when
convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite <
waisean@gmail.com>, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb]
FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators
Hello there! I am one of the ones you speak of and my only issue was how the suvesstions were presented and that someone can just post to AMSAT site with out a vote or discussion.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message --------From: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net Date: 12/13/17 12:20 (GMT-06:00) To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators Dave,
Thanks for the good words about the reality of SAT operations.
Apparently, some people do not appreciate DX and/or Roving or Gridding QSOs on our Satellites. They don't realize or care that there is a LOT of time and expense involved with providing these contacts for other SAT users from rare locations.
Amazingly, it seems that some of the vocal folks are objecting to being reminded to use courtesy when the resources are busy with highly sought stations. There are very many SAT passes that are not busy at all. Is it that inconvenient to use those passes?
Even more amazing is that it has been pointed out that some of the objectors haven't been actual users of the Satellites. One would wonder why they are voicing objections in the first place.
Our hobby often has a problem getting folks to volunteer to do some of the needed tasks that we all would benefit from. Then, when someone steps forward to help with a needed task (writing an Operating Practice) there are folks that do nothing but complain about what that volunteer actually does! Go figure!!!
73 & Merry Christmas to ALL!!! de Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593)
________________________________ From: David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Christopher,
I ask you the same question I asked another earlier in this thread: Do you
actually operate on the Amateur Satellites? I have checked my logs, and I
don't see you in them with your KG5JUP or your AA5EM call sign. Not saying
it's possible I could have missed you, but 5000 logged AMSAT QSOs since
2014 and you're not in them makes a fairly compelling case. Sean is not
trying pass a law by tyrannical decree here, he is an active operator who
has made a lot of contacts and been on both the chasing side and the DX
side of the QSO. He made a list of suggested guidelines based on his (and
other active ops) experiences, and he did a bang up job with it too. If
that rustles your jimmies too much, then maybe you should re-evaluate what
you're expecting by belonging to an organization like AMSAT.
Also - for those that have been around since before AO-91 - please go back
and reference the K0D operation I did with AC0RA last month. We activated
20 rares grids thru the Western Dakotas in 3 days. We only got on 3 FM
passes the entire trip. I got a lot of flack from FM only operators for
avoiding the repeater birds - but this thread is proof positive of exactly
why we did it that way. If folks get upset over asking for some courtesy
towards the rovers out there busting their tail off, that's fine. I for one
am done chasing grids now that I've got my 488 confirmed - and plan to put
some serious effort into roving the next few years. I'm happy to stick to
the linear birds only when on the road, if treating AO91 "like the extra
class" causes people to go to their safe spaces.
-Dave, KG5CCI
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not
input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a handful of
individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when
convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite <
waisean@gmail.com>, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb]
FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Hi!
The document Sean KX9X created for the AMSAT web site is in the same tradition as the documents offered on the Station and Operating Hints page on AMSAT's web site:
https://www.amsat.org/station-and-operating-hints/
I don't think any of the documents listed there went through any discussion or vote, before being placed on that page. Some of those articles appeared in the AMSAT Journal, and others were posted in other places online but brought to this page as a one-stop place to find this sort of useful information. AMSAT has people that review what is presented on its web site and distributed in its name, so it isn't like KX9X "went rogue" in creating the document and posting it on the AMSAT web site.
This mailing list is an ideal place to discuss what KX9X wrote. I expressed my opinion about it on Monday, suggesting a tweak to one part of it, but also said I liked it. Do you have objections to anything in KX9X's document? Nowhere has it been said that the document represents a set of rules we must follow when working FM satellites, or even AMSAT's FM satellites (AO-85 and AO-91). Just suggestions, and - in my opinion - good suggestions.
I don't have your call signs, current or previous, in my log from a satellite QSO. I'd like to work you sometime, whether it is on AO-91 or one of the other satellites. I think if you tried working some passes, you would gain an appreciation of what has been said in that document.
73!
Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK http://www.wd9ewk.net/ Twitter: @WD9EWK or http://twitter.com/WD9EWK
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 8:11 PM, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
Hello there! I am one of the ones you speak of and my only issue was how the suvesstions were presented and that someone can just post to AMSAT site with out a vote or discussion.
That’s the thing about best practices when applied to just about anything, it’s something rarely voted on. Instead, best practices tend to come from empirical evidence.
Sean has proven himself to be successful on sats. Like others have pointed out, I’ve worked him as both sides of the DX. His methods described are proven and isn’t a matter of opinion. When it comes down to things such as operating best practices then the less opinions (votes) the better because most aren’t qualified.
Sean presented a guide and those that we elected at AMSAT thought it was well worth posting. We should be glad they didn’t wait around to get every unqualified opinion on the matter.
73, Mike Diehl W8LID
On Dec 13, 2017, at 15:11, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
Hello there! I am one of the ones you speak of and my only issue was how the suvesstions were presented and that someone can just post to AMSAT site with out a vote or discussion.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message --------From: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net Date: 12/13/17 12:20 (GMT-06:00) To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators Dave,
Thanks for the good words about the reality of SAT operations.
Apparently, some people do not appreciate DX and/or Roving or Gridding QSOs on our Satellites. They don't realize or care that there is a LOT of time and expense involved with providing these contacts for other SAT users from rare locations.
Amazingly, it seems that some of the vocal folks are objecting to being reminded to use courtesy when the resources are busy with highly sought stations. There are very many SAT passes that are not busy at all. Is it that inconvenient to use those passes?
Even more amazing is that it has been pointed out that some of the objectors haven't been actual users of the Satellites. One would wonder why they are voicing objections in the first place.
Our hobby often has a problem getting folks to volunteer to do some of the needed tasks that we all would benefit from. Then, when someone steps forward to help with a needed task (writing an Operating Practice) there are folks that do nothing but complain about what that volunteer actually does! Go figure!!!
73 & Merry Christmas to ALL!!! de Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593)
From: David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Christopher,
I ask you the same question I asked another earlier in this thread: Do you
actually operate on the Amateur Satellites? I have checked my logs, and I
don't see you in them with your KG5JUP or your AA5EM call sign. Not saying
it's possible I could have missed you, but 5000 logged AMSAT QSOs since
2014 and you're not in them makes a fairly compelling case. Sean is not
trying pass a law by tyrannical decree here, he is an active operator who
has made a lot of contacts and been on both the chasing side and the DX
side of the QSO. He made a list of suggested guidelines based on his (and
other active ops) experiences, and he did a bang up job with it too. If
that rustles your jimmies too much, then maybe you should re-evaluate what
you're expecting by belonging to an organization like AMSAT.
Also - for those that have been around since before AO-91 - please go back
and reference the K0D operation I did with AC0RA last month. We activated
20 rares grids thru the Western Dakotas in 3 days. We only got on 3 FM
passes the entire trip. I got a lot of flack from FM only operators for
avoiding the repeater birds - but this thread is proof positive of exactly
why we did it that way. If folks get upset over asking for some courtesy
towards the rovers out there busting their tail off, that's fine. I for one
am done chasing grids now that I've got my 488 confirmed - and plan to put
some serious effort into roving the next few years. I'm happy to stick to
the linear birds only when on the road, if treating AO91 "like the extra
class" causes people to go to their safe spaces.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not
input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a handful of
individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when
convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite <
waisean@gmail.com>, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb]
FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Really what you are saying is the DXers count. I abhore clickes especially those driven by adolensce mentalities.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Mike Diehl diehl.mike.a@gmail.com Date: 12/13/17 14:49 (GMT-06:00) To: kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com Cc: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators That’s the thing about best practices when applied to just about anything, it’s something rarely voted on. Instead, best practices tend to come from empirical evidence.
Sean has proven himself to be successful on sats. Like others have pointed out, I’ve worked him as both sides of the DX. His methods described are proven and isn’t a matter of opinion. When it comes down to things such as operating best practices then the less opinions (votes) the better because most aren’t qualified.
Sean presented a guide and those that we elected at AMSAT thought it was well worth posting. We should be glad they didn’t wait around to get every unqualified opinion on the matter.
73, Mike Diehl W8LID
On Dec 13, 2017, at 15:11, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
Hello there! I am one of the ones you speak of and my only issue was how the suvesstions were presented and that someone can just post to AMSAT site with out a vote or discussion.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message --------From: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net Date: 12/13/17 12:20 (GMT-06:00) To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators Dave,
Thanks for the good words about the reality of SAT operations.
Apparently, some people do not appreciate DX and/or Roving or Gridding QSOs on our Satellites. They don't realize or care that there is a LOT of time and expense involved with providing these contacts for other SAT users from rare locations.
Amazingly, it seems that some of the vocal folks are objecting to being reminded to use courtesy when the resources are busy with highly sought stations. There are very many SAT passes that are not busy at all. Is it that inconvenient to use those passes?
Even more amazing is that it has been pointed out that some of the objectors haven't been actual users of the Satellites. One would wonder why they are voicing objections in the first place.
Our hobby often has a problem getting folks to volunteer to do some of the needed tasks that we all would benefit from. Then, when someone steps forward to help with a needed task (writing an Operating Practice) there are folks that do nothing but complain about what that volunteer actually does! Go figure!!!
73 & Merry Christmas to ALL!!! de Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593)
From: David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Christopher,
I ask you the same question I asked another earlier in this thread: Do you
actually operate on the Amateur Satellites? I have checked my logs, and I
don't see you in them with your KG5JUP or your AA5EM call sign. Not saying
it's possible I could have missed you, but 5000 logged AMSAT QSOs since
2014 and you're not in them makes a fairly compelling case. Sean is not
trying pass a law by tyrannical decree here, he is an active operator who
has made a lot of contacts and been on both the chasing side and the DX
side of the QSO. He made a list of suggested guidelines based on his (and
other active ops) experiences, and he did a bang up job with it too. If
that rustles your jimmies too much, then maybe you should re-evaluate what
you're expecting by belonging to an organization like AMSAT.
Also - for those that have been around since before AO-91 - please go back
and reference the K0D operation I did with AC0RA last month. We activated
20 rares grids thru the Western Dakotas in 3 days. We only got on 3 FM
passes the entire trip. I got a lot of flack from FM only operators for
avoiding the repeater birds - but this thread is proof positive of exactly
why we did it that way. If folks get upset over asking for some courtesy
towards the rovers out there busting their tail off, that's fine. I for one
am done chasing grids now that I've got my 488 confirmed - and plan to put
some serious effort into roving the next few years. I'm happy to stick to
the linear birds only when on the road, if treating AO91 "like the extra
class" causes people to go to their safe spaces.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not
input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a handful of
individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when
convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite <
waisean@gmail.com>, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb]
FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Then go back to HF or repeaters or whatever and stop trolling us. Getting tired of getting these stupid emails from you fighting with everyone over petty nonsense, enjoy the satellites and hobby however you damn well please and feel free to ignore any advice.
73, Gabe AL6D/VE6NJH
On Dec 13, 2017 12:23 PM, "kg5jup" kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
Really what you are saying is the DXers count. I abhore clickes especially those driven by adolensce mentalities.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Mike Diehl diehl.mike.a@gmail.com Date: 12/13/17 14:49 (GMT-06:00) To: kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com Cc: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators That’s the thing about best practices when applied to just about anything, it’s something rarely voted on. Instead, best practices tend to come from empirical evidence.
Sean has proven himself to be successful on sats. Like others have pointed out, I’ve worked him as both sides of the DX. His methods described are proven and isn’t a matter of opinion. When it comes down to things such as operating best practices then the less opinions (votes) the better because most aren’t qualified.
Sean presented a guide and those that we elected at AMSAT thought it was well worth posting. We should be glad they didn’t wait around to get every unqualified opinion on the matter.
73, Mike Diehl W8LID
On Dec 13, 2017, at 15:11, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
Hello there! I am one of the ones you speak of and my only issue was
how the suvesstions were presented and that someone can just post to AMSAT site with out a vote or discussion.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message --------From: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net
Date: 12/13/17 12:20 (GMT-06:00) To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators Dave,
Thanks for the good words about the reality of SAT operations.
Apparently, some people do not appreciate DX and/or Roving or Gridding QSOs on our Satellites. They don't realize or care that there is a LOT of time and expense involved with providing these contacts for other SAT users from rare locations.
Amazingly, it seems that some of the vocal folks are objecting to being reminded to use courtesy when the resources are busy with highly sought stations. There are very many SAT passes that are not busy at all. Is it that inconvenient to use those passes?
Even more amazing is that it has been pointed out that some of the objectors haven't been actual users of the Satellites. One would wonder why they are voicing objections in the first place.
Our hobby often has a problem getting folks to volunteer to do some of the needed tasks that we all would benefit from. Then, when someone steps forward to help with a needed task (writing an Operating Practice) there are folks that do nothing but complain about what that volunteer actually does! Go figure!!!
73 & Merry Christmas to ALL!!! de Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593)
From: David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators
Christopher,
I ask you the same question I asked another earlier in this thread: Do
you
actually operate on the Amateur Satellites? I have checked my logs, and I
don't see you in them with your KG5JUP or your AA5EM call sign. Not
saying
it's possible I could have missed you, but 5000 logged AMSAT QSOs since
2014 and you're not in them makes a fairly compelling case. Sean is not
trying pass a law by tyrannical decree here, he is an active operator who
has made a lot of contacts and been on both the chasing side and the DX
side of the QSO. He made a list of suggested guidelines based on his (and
other active ops) experiences, and he did a bang up job with it too. If
that rustles your jimmies too much, then maybe you should re-evaluate
what
you're expecting by belonging to an organization like AMSAT.
Also - for those that have been around since before AO-91 - please go
back
and reference the K0D operation I did with AC0RA last month. We activated
20 rares grids thru the Western Dakotas in 3 days. We only got on 3 FM
passes the entire trip. I got a lot of flack from FM only operators for
avoiding the repeater birds - but this thread is proof positive of
exactly
why we did it that way. If folks get upset over asking for some courtesy
towards the rovers out there busting their tail off, that's fine. I for
one
am done chasing grids now that I've got my 488 confirmed - and plan to
put
some serious effort into roving the next few years. I'm happy to stick to
the linear birds only when on the road, if treating AO91 "like the extra
class" causes people to go to their safe spaces.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not
input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a
handful of
individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when
convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite <
waisean@gmail.com>, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re:
[amsat-bb]
FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I am too tall to be a troll. This has however gotten out of hand a long time ago. Sean great work on the suggestions for good practices they are super helpful for a new operator like myself.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Gabriel Zeifman gabrielzeifman@gmail.com Date: 12/13/17 15:26 (GMT-06:00) To: kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com Cc: Mike Diehl diehl.mike.a@gmail.com, AMSAT Mailing List amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators Then go back to HF or repeaters or whatever and stop trolling us. Getting tired of getting these stupid emails from you fighting with everyone over petty nonsense, enjoy the satellites and hobby however you damn well please and feel free to ignore any advice. 73,GabeAL6D/VE6NJH On Dec 13, 2017 12:23 PM, "kg5jup" kg5jup@gmail.com wrote: Really what you are saying is the DXers count. I abhore clickes especially those driven by adolensce mentalities.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Mike Diehl diehl.mike.a@gmail.com Date: 12/13/17 14:49 (GMT-06:00) To: kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com Cc: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
That’s the thing about best practices when applied to just about anything, it’s something rarely voted on. Instead, best practices tend to come from empirical evidence.
Sean has proven himself to be successful on sats. Like others have pointed out, I’ve worked him as both sides of the DX. His methods described are proven and isn’t a matter of opinion. When it comes down to things such as operating best practices then the less opinions (votes) the better because most aren’t qualified.
Sean presented a guide and those that we elected at AMSAT thought it was well worth posting. We should be glad they didn’t wait around to get every unqualified opinion on the matter.
73,
Mike Diehl
W8LID
On Dec 13, 2017, at 15:11, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
Hello there! I am one of the ones you speak of and my only issue was how the suvesstions were presented and that someone can just post to AMSAT site with out a vote or discussion.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net Date: 12/13/17 12:20 (GMT-06:00) To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators
Dave,
Thanks for the good words about the reality of SAT operations.
Apparently, some people do not appreciate DX and/or Roving
or Gridding QSOs on our Satellites. They don't realize or care
that there is a LOT of time and expense involved with providing
these contacts for other SAT users from rare locations.
Amazingly, it seems that some of the vocal folks are objecting
to being reminded to use courtesy when the resources are busy
with highly sought stations. There are very many SAT passes that
are not busy at all. Is it that inconvenient to use those passes?
Even more amazing is that it has been pointed out that some of
the objectors haven't been actual users of the Satellites. One would
wonder why they are voicing objections in the first place.
Our hobby often has a problem getting folks to volunteer to do
some of the needed tasks that we all would benefit from. Then, when
someone steps forward to help with a needed task (writing an Operating
Practice) there are folks that do nothing but complain about what that
volunteer actually does! Go figure!!!
73 & Merry Christmas to ALL!!! de Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593)
From: David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com
To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Christopher,
I ask you the same question I asked another earlier in this thread: Do you
actually operate on the Amateur Satellites? I have checked my logs, and I
don't see you in them with your KG5JUP or your AA5EM call sign. Not saying
it's possible I could have missed you, but 5000 logged AMSAT QSOs since
2014 and you're not in them makes a fairly compelling case. Sean is not
trying pass a law by tyrannical decree here, he is an active operator who
has made a lot of contacts and been on both the chasing side and the DX
side of the QSO. He made a list of suggested guidelines based on his (and
other active ops) experiences, and he did a bang up job with it too. If
that rustles your jimmies too much, then maybe you should re-evaluate what
you're expecting by belonging to an organization like AMSAT.
Also - for those that have been around since before AO-91 - please go back
and reference the K0D operation I did with AC0RA last month. We activated
20 rares grids thru the Western Dakotas in 3 days. We only got on 3 FM
passes the entire trip. I got a lot of flack from FM only operators for
avoiding the repeater birds - but this thread is proof positive of exactly
why we did it that way. If folks get upset over asking for some courtesy
towards the rovers out there busting their tail off, that's fine. I for one
am done chasing grids now that I've got my 488 confirmed - and plan to put
some serious effort into roving the next few years. I'm happy to stick to
the linear birds only when on the road, if treating AO91 "like the extra
class" causes people to go to their safe spaces.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not
input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a handful of
individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when
convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite <
waisean@gmail.com>, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb]
FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Chris, why are you beating this to death? No one here or from AMSAT has told you Sean's write up was the LAW etched in stone. Sean simply took the time to put in cogent writing what is always discussed and thought by many operators. Sean just took the initiative to do a 'white paper' on the topic.
You are free to adopt his suggestions or not. There is no 'vote', but there is honest discussion. NO one is making you follow Sean's suggestions...key word be SUGGESTIONS
73, Ted K7TRK
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of kg5jup Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:11 PM To: R.T.Liddy; AMSAT BB Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Hello there! I am one of the ones you speak of and my only issue was how the suvesstions were presented and that someone can just post to AMSAT site with out a vote or discussion.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message --------From: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net Date: 12/13/17 12:20 (GMT-06:00) To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators Dave,
Thanks for the good words about the reality of SAT operations.
Apparently, some people do not appreciate DX and/or Roving or Gridding QSOs on our Satellites. They don't realize or care that there is a LOT of time and expense involved with providing these contacts for other SAT users from rare locations.
Amazingly, it seems that some of the vocal folks are objecting to being reminded to use courtesy when the resources are busy with highly sought stations. There are very many SAT passes that are not busy at all. Is it that inconvenient to use those passes?
Even more amazing is that it has been pointed out that some of the objectors haven't been actual users of the Satellites. One would wonder why they are voicing objections in the first place.
Our hobby often has a problem getting folks to volunteer to do some of the needed tasks that we all would benefit from. Then, when someone steps forward to help with a needed task (writing an Operating Practice) there are folks that do nothing but complain about what that volunteer actually does! Go figure!!!
73 & Merry Christmas to ALL!!! de Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593)
________________________________ From: David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Christopher,
I ask you the same question I asked another earlier in this thread: Do you
actually operate on the Amateur Satellites? I have checked my logs, and I
don't see you in them with your KG5JUP or your AA5EM call sign. Not saying
it's possible I could have missed you, but 5000 logged AMSAT QSOs since
2014 and you're not in them makes a fairly compelling case. Sean is not
trying pass a law by tyrannical decree here, he is an active operator who
has made a lot of contacts and been on both the chasing side and the DX
side of the QSO. He made a list of suggested guidelines based on his (and
other active ops) experiences, and he did a bang up job with it too. If
that rustles your jimmies too much, then maybe you should re-evaluate what
you're expecting by belonging to an organization like AMSAT.
Also - for those that have been around since before AO-91 - please go back
and reference the K0D operation I did with AC0RA last month. We activated
20 rares grids thru the Western Dakotas in 3 days. We only got on 3 FM
passes the entire trip. I got a lot of flack from FM only operators for
avoiding the repeater birds - but this thread is proof positive of exactly
why we did it that way. If folks get upset over asking for some courtesy
towards the rovers out there busting their tail off, that's fine. I for one
am done chasing grids now that I've got my 488 confirmed - and plan to put
some serious effort into roving the next few years. I'm happy to stick to
the linear birds only when on the road, if treating AO91 "like the extra
class" causes people to go to their safe spaces.
-Dave, KG5CCI
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not
input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a handful of
individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when
convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite <
waisean@gmail.com>, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb]
FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
KG5JUP,
The AMSAT BB is open to all & no membership/dues required.
Anyone can comment on whatever is posted on it, which you did.
Someone volunteered their time to summarize what many folks feel are good operating procedures. Without guidelines, there would continue to be the chaos on the FM Satellites that has been seen.
New people should appreciate having guidance on how to operate on a shared resource. Otherwise, they merely contribute to the chaos.
FYI, there is no voting on a volunteered set of guidelines. You either follow them or you don't. They aren't Rules.
You could have suggested a rewording of portions of the guidelines and asked for discussion and a reissue. Instead, you inferred that the SATs are being controlled by only certain individuals and they are whiners.
Now, why don't you tell the users here what you feel should be different in those guidelines based on your experience and observations. Then, people can comment on the pros and cons of your ideas. Perhaps, the guidelines can be improved.
TNX/73, Bob K8BL
P.S. Please sign your posts with your Name/Call so we know who you are.
________________________________ From: kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com To: R.T.Liddy k8bl@ameritech.net; AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Hello there! I am one of the ones you speak of and my only issue was how the suvesstions were presented and that someone can just post to AMSAT site with out a vote or discussion.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message -------- From: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net Date: 12/13/17 12:20 (GMT-06:00) To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Dave,
Thanks for the good words about the reality of SAT operations.
Apparently, some people do not appreciate DX and/or Roving or Gridding QSOs on our Satellites. They don't realize or care that there is a LOT of time and expense involved with providing these contacts for other SAT users from rare locations.
Amazingly, it seems that some of the vocal folks are objecting to being reminded to use courtesy when the resources are busy with highly sought stations. There are very many SAT passes that are not busy at all. Is it that inconvenient to use those passes?
Even more amazing is that it has been pointed out that some of the objectors haven't been actual users of the Satellites. One would wonder why they are voicing objections in the first place.
Our hobby often has a problem getting folks to volunteer to do some of the needed tasks that we all would benefit from. Then, when someone steps forward to help with a needed task (writing an Operating Practice) there are folks that do nothing but complain about what that volunteer actually does! Go figure!!!
73 & Merry Christmas to ALL!!! de Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593)
________________________________ From: David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Christopher,
I ask you the same question I asked another earlier in this thread: Do you
actually operate on the Amateur Satellites? I have checked my logs, and I
don't see you in them with your KG5JUP or your AA5EM call sign. Not saying
it's possible I could have missed you, but 5000 logged AMSAT QSOs since
2014 and you're not in them makes a fairly compelling case. Sean is not
trying pass a law by tyrannical decree here, he is an active operator who
has made a lot of contacts and been on both the chasing side and the DX
side of the QSO. He made a list of suggested guidelines based on his (and
other active ops) experiences, and he did a bang up job with it too. If
that rustles your jimmies too much, then maybe you should re-evaluate what
you're expecting by belonging to an organization like AMSAT.
Also - for those that have been around since before AO-91 - please go back
and reference the K0D operation I did with AC0RA last month. We activated
20 rares grids thru the Western Dakotas in 3 days. We only got on 3 FM
passes the entire trip. I got a lot of flack from FM only operators for
avoiding the repeater birds - but this thread is proof positive of exactly
why we did it that way. If folks get upset over asking for some courtesy
towards the rovers out there busting their tail off, that's fine. I for one
am done chasing grids now that I've got my 488 confirmed - and plan to put
some serious effort into roving the next few years. I'm happy to stick to
the linear birds only when on the road, if treating AO91 "like the extra
class" causes people to go to their safe spaces.
-Dave, KG5CCI
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not
input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a handful of
individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when
convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite <
waisean@gmail.com>, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb]
FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Many things in life have “best practices” that are not “voted” on including engineering, surgery , etc. Why is the best practices obtained over years of operations even in question.
Greg N3MVF
On Dec 13, 2017, at 4:30 PM, R.T.Liddy k8bl@ameritech.net wrote:
KG5JUP,
The AMSAT BB is open to all & no membership/dues required.
Anyone can comment on whatever is posted on it, which you did.
Someone volunteered their time to summarize what many folks feel are good operating procedures. Without guidelines, there would continue to be the chaos on the FM Satellites that has been seen.
New people should appreciate having guidance on how to operate on a shared resource. Otherwise, they merely contribute to the chaos.
FYI, there is no voting on a volunteered set of guidelines. You either follow them or you don't. They aren't Rules.
You could have suggested a rewording of portions of the guidelines and asked for discussion and a reissue. Instead, you inferred that the SATs are being controlled by only certain individuals and they are whiners.
Now, why don't you tell the users here what you feel should be different in those guidelines based on your experience and observations. Then, people can comment on the pros and cons of your ideas. Perhaps, the guidelines can be improved.
TNX/73, Bob K8BL
P.S. Please sign your posts with your Name/Call so we know who you are.
________________________________ From: kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com To: R.T.Liddy k8bl@ameritech.net; AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Hello there! I am one of the ones you speak of and my only issue was how the suvesstions were presented and that someone can just post to AMSAT site with out a vote or discussion.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message -------- From: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net Date: 12/13/17 12:20 (GMT-06:00) To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Dave,
Thanks for the good words about the reality of SAT operations.
Apparently, some people do not appreciate DX and/or Roving or Gridding QSOs on our Satellites. They don't realize or care that there is a LOT of time and expense involved with providing these contacts for other SAT users from rare locations.
Amazingly, it seems that some of the vocal folks are objecting to being reminded to use courtesy when the resources are busy with highly sought stations. There are very many SAT passes that are not busy at all. Is it that inconvenient to use those passes?
Even more amazing is that it has been pointed out that some of the objectors haven't been actual users of the Satellites. One would wonder why they are voicing objections in the first place.
Our hobby often has a problem getting folks to volunteer to do some of the needed tasks that we all would benefit from. Then, when someone steps forward to help with a needed task (writing an Operating Practice) there are folks that do nothing but complain about what that volunteer actually does! Go figure!!!
73 & Merry Christmas to ALL!!! de Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593)
________________________________ From: David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Christopher,
I ask you the same question I asked another earlier in this thread: Do you
actually operate on the Amateur Satellites? I have checked my logs, and I
don't see you in them with your KG5JUP or your AA5EM call sign. Not saying
it's possible I could have missed you, but 5000 logged AMSAT QSOs since
2014 and you're not in them makes a fairly compelling case. Sean is not
trying pass a law by tyrannical decree here, he is an active operator who
has made a lot of contacts and been on both the chasing side and the DX
side of the QSO. He made a list of suggested guidelines based on his (and
other active ops) experiences, and he did a bang up job with it too. If
that rustles your jimmies too much, then maybe you should re-evaluate what
you're expecting by belonging to an organization like AMSAT.
Also - for those that have been around since before AO-91 - please go back
and reference the K0D operation I did with AC0RA last month. We activated
20 rares grids thru the Western Dakotas in 3 days. We only got on 3 FM
passes the entire trip. I got a lot of flack from FM only operators for
avoiding the repeater birds - but this thread is proof positive of exactly
why we did it that way. If folks get upset over asking for some courtesy
towards the rovers out there busting their tail off, that's fine. I for one
am done chasing grids now that I've got my 488 confirmed - and plan to put
some serious effort into roving the next few years. I'm happy to stick to
the linear birds only when on the road, if treating AO91 "like the extra
class" causes people to go to their safe spaces.
-Dave, KG5CCI
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not
input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a handful of
individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when
convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite <
waisean@gmail.com>, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb]
FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
There are two things that are sad about all of this is... The discussion about the FM satellites has been going on for as long as I've been working the sats, coming up on 30 years. Geez am I getting old. It will never change. What happens is as the newness of AO-91 wears off it will settle down. it always does Let's all be patient. The second thing is I wouldn't even be involved in this discussion, I know better but I elmered my good friend Russ kl1nk today on two passes of AO-91. The first pass low over the Caribbean went well, he made two contacts, the second high pass over the US was a disaster. He didn't make a single contact, as far as I can tell he wasn't even heard. He could not believe what a mess it was. I told him the SSB satellites were much more relaxed, but being retired on a fixed income, I don't think he has the money to invest in the required equipment. Trying to get new people interested in sat operation is a very hard sell. I had to almost beg him to take my Arrow antenna I loaned him home to work on it. Back to the linear birds for me :-)
73 Jeff kb2m
-----Original Message----- From: R.T.Liddy Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 4:30 PM To: AMSAT BB Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
KG5JUP,
The AMSAT BB is open to all & no membership/dues required.
Anyone can comment on whatever is posted on it, which you did.
Someone volunteered their time to summarize what many folks feel are good operating procedures. Without guidelines, there would continue to be the chaos on the FM Satellites that has been seen.
New people should appreciate having guidance on how to operate on a shared resource. Otherwise, they merely contribute to the chaos.
FYI, there is no voting on a volunteered set of guidelines. You either follow them or you don't. They aren't Rules.
You could have suggested a rewording of portions of the guidelines and asked for discussion and a reissue. Instead, you inferred that the SATs are being controlled by only certain individuals and they are whiners.
Now, why don't you tell the users here what you feel should be different in those guidelines based on your experience and observations. Then, people can comment on the pros and cons of your ideas. Perhaps, the guidelines can be improved.
TNX/73, Bob K8BL
P.S. Please sign your posts with your Name/Call so we know who you are.
________________________________ From: kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com To: R.T.Liddy k8bl@ameritech.net; AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Hello there! I am one of the ones you speak of and my only issue was how the suvesstions were presented and that someone can just post to AMSAT site with out a vote or discussion.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message -------- From: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net Date: 12/13/17 12:20 (GMT-06:00) To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Dave,
Thanks for the good words about the reality of SAT operations.
Apparently, some people do not appreciate DX and/or Roving or Gridding QSOs on our Satellites. They don't realize or care that there is a LOT of time and expense involved with providing these contacts for other SAT users from rare locations.
Amazingly, it seems that some of the vocal folks are objecting to being reminded to use courtesy when the resources are busy with highly sought stations. There are very many SAT passes that are not busy at all. Is it that inconvenient to use those passes?
Even more amazing is that it has been pointed out that some of the objectors haven't been actual users of the Satellites. One would wonder why they are voicing objections in the first place.
Our hobby often has a problem getting folks to volunteer to do some of the needed tasks that we all would benefit from. Then, when someone steps forward to help with a needed task (writing an Operating Practice) there are folks that do nothing but complain about what that volunteer actually does! Go figure!!!
73 & Merry Christmas to ALL!!! de Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593)
________________________________ From: David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Christopher,
I ask you the same question I asked another earlier in this thread: Do you
actually operate on the Amateur Satellites? I have checked my logs, and I
don't see you in them with your KG5JUP or your AA5EM call sign. Not saying
it's possible I could have missed you, but 5000 logged AMSAT QSOs since
2014 and you're not in them makes a fairly compelling case. Sean is not
trying pass a law by tyrannical decree here, he is an active operator who
has made a lot of contacts and been on both the chasing side and the DX
side of the QSO. He made a list of suggested guidelines based on his (and
other active ops) experiences, and he did a bang up job with it too. If
that rustles your jimmies too much, then maybe you should re-evaluate what
you're expecting by belonging to an organization like AMSAT.
Also - for those that have been around since before AO-91 - please go back
and reference the K0D operation I did with AC0RA last month. We activated
20 rares grids thru the Western Dakotas in 3 days. We only got on 3 FM
passes the entire trip. I got a lot of flack from FM only operators for
avoiding the repeater birds - but this thread is proof positive of exactly
why we did it that way. If folks get upset over asking for some courtesy
towards the rovers out there busting their tail off, that's fine. I for one
am done chasing grids now that I've got my 488 confirmed - and plan to put
some serious effort into roving the next few years. I'm happy to stick to
the linear birds only when on the road, if treating AO91 "like the extra
class" causes people to go to their safe spaces.
-Dave, KG5CCI
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not
input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a handful of
individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when
convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite <
waisean@gmail.com>, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb]
FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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I'd love to see Sean's guidelines included in the next "Getting Started with Amateur Satellites" book. Listening, Courtesy, and Situational Awareness prevents many problems.
73 de Bill, KG5FQX
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 4:00 PM, kb2mjeff@att.net wrote:
There are two things that are sad about all of this is... The discussion about the FM satellites has been going on for as long as I've been working the sats, coming up on 30 years. Geez am I getting old. It will never change. What happens is as the newness of AO-91 wears off it will settle down. it always does Let's all be patient. The second thing is I wouldn't even be involved in this discussion, I know better but I elmered my good friend Russ kl1nk today on two passes of AO-91. The first pass low over the Caribbean went well, he made two contacts, the second high pass over the US was a disaster. He didn't make a single contact, as far as I can tell he wasn't even heard. He could not believe what a mess it was. I told him the SSB satellites were much more relaxed, but being retired on a fixed income, I don't think he has the money to invest in the required equipment. Trying to get new people interested in sat operation is a very hard sell. I had to almost beg him to take my Arrow antenna I loaned him home to work on it. Back to the linear birds for me :-)
73 Jeff kb2m
-----Original Message----- From: R.T.Liddy Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 4:30 PM To: AMSAT BB
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
KG5JUP,
The AMSAT BB is open to all & no membership/dues required.
Anyone can comment on whatever is posted on it, which you did.
Someone volunteered their time to summarize what many folks feel are good operating procedures. Without guidelines, there would continue to be the chaos on the FM Satellites that has been seen.
New people should appreciate having guidance on how to operate on a shared resource. Otherwise, they merely contribute to the chaos.
FYI, there is no voting on a volunteered set of guidelines. You either follow them or you don't. They aren't Rules.
You could have suggested a rewording of portions of the guidelines and asked for discussion and a reissue. Instead, you inferred that the SATs are being controlled by only certain individuals and they are whiners.
Now, why don't you tell the users here what you feel should be different in those guidelines based on your experience and observations. Then, people can comment on the pros and cons of your ideas. Perhaps, the guidelines can be improved.
TNX/73, Bob K8BL
P.S. Please sign your posts with your Name/Call so we know who you are.
From: kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com To: R.T.Liddy k8bl@ameritech.net; AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Hello there! I am one of the ones you speak of and my only issue was how the suvesstions were presented and that someone can just post to AMSAT site with out a vote or discussion.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message -------- From: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net Date: 12/13/17 12:20 (GMT-06:00) To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Dave,
Thanks for the good words about the reality of SAT operations.
Apparently, some people do not appreciate DX and/or Roving or Gridding QSOs on our Satellites. They don't realize or care that there is a LOT of time and expense involved with providing these contacts for other SAT users from rare locations.
Amazingly, it seems that some of the vocal folks are objecting to being reminded to use courtesy when the resources are busy with highly sought stations. There are very many SAT passes that are not busy at all. Is it that inconvenient to use those passes?
Even more amazing is that it has been pointed out that some of the objectors haven't been actual users of the Satellites. One would wonder why they are voicing objections in the first place.
Our hobby often has a problem getting folks to volunteer to do some of the needed tasks that we all would benefit from. Then, when someone steps forward to help with a needed task (writing an Operating Practice) there are folks that do nothing but complain about what that volunteer actually does! Go figure!!!
73 & Merry Christmas to ALL!!! de Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593)
From: David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Christopher,
I ask you the same question I asked another earlier in this thread: Do you
actually operate on the Amateur Satellites? I have checked my logs, and I
don't see you in them with your KG5JUP or your AA5EM call sign. Not saying
it's possible I could have missed you, but 5000 logged AMSAT QSOs since
2014 and you're not in them makes a fairly compelling case. Sean is not
trying pass a law by tyrannical decree here, he is an active operator who
has made a lot of contacts and been on both the chasing side and the DX
side of the QSO. He made a list of suggested guidelines based on his (and
other active ops) experiences, and he did a bang up job with it too. If
that rustles your jimmies too much, then maybe you should re-evaluate what
you're expecting by belonging to an organization like AMSAT.
Also - for those that have been around since before AO-91 - please go back
and reference the K0D operation I did with AC0RA last month. We activated
20 rares grids thru the Western Dakotas in 3 days. We only got on 3 FM
passes the entire trip. I got a lot of flack from FM only operators for
avoiding the repeater birds - but this thread is proof positive of exactly
why we did it that way. If folks get upset over asking for some courtesy
towards the rovers out there busting their tail off, that's fine. I for one
am done chasing grids now that I've got my 488 confirmed - and plan to put
some serious effort into roving the next few years. I'm happy to stick to
the linear birds only when on the road, if treating AO91 "like the extra
class" causes people to go to their safe spaces.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not
input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a handful of
individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when
convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite <
waisean@gmail.com>, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb]
FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Been a Ham over 40 yrs have not actually worked the sats much other than listen, I do have friends who have Here is a Question I would like a real answer on .. I have been told other than the expense the reason We do not have a geostationary fixed Sat . Is that We would unfortunately have Hams that would just set on their and rag chew all the time and tie it up we all know they type .. Is there any actual truth to this theory I have herd of some now that get bigger antennas and Amps to stay in longer in the pass , I would think that would knock out the little Guys trying to enjoy it too...
73 and Happy Holidays
Don KA9QJG
Don,
While someone may have opined that, from the AMSAT perspective the expense is the reason. The designs for Phase 4B include ragchewing and uplink power (other than the minimums required) would make no difference in who is on or not.
Jerry Buxton, NØJY
On 12/13/2017 16:31, KA9QJG wrote:
Been a Ham over 40 yrs have not actually worked the sats much other than listen, I do have friends who have Here is a Question I would like a real answer on .. I have been told other than the expense the reason We do not have a geostationary fixed Sat . Is that We would unfortunately have Hams that would just set on their and rag chew all the time and tie it up we all know they type .. Is there any actual truth to this theory I have herd of some now that get bigger antennas and Amps to stay in longer in the pass , I would think that would knock out the little Guys trying to enjoy it too...
73 and Happy Holidays
Don KA9QJG
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
I have several more comments.
I do think Sean's draft is reasonable. I'd hesitate to say it ought to have force of law (and indeed, it is likely unenforceable in any event) because there's no one absolute "right" way to operate, other than what's laid out in FCC regulations. Certainly, one of the reasons I've never been a grid chaser is that I've simply been working too much at my job to spend the time doing it. Now that I am retired, I have been devoting more time to ham radio, and indeed, am taking steps to upgrade my satellite operating position (primarily automating tracking and auto-adjusting for doppler). But, the fact that I operated in small spurts on the satellites for years before retirement leads to one of my concerns about always stepping aside for "DX grids". Many on here have commented that other passes will occur for people who aren't interested in the grid chase. For me, that one or two passes available on a Saturday were usually the only passes I had available to me, regardless of whether someone was on there with a rare grid (I don't /think/ I've ever been a lid and stepped on someone during a pass but it could have happened). So, what is the response to folks who don't have the opportunity to get on for multiple passes of a bird in a short period of time? What do you say to the newbie who is on for maybe the 4th or 5th time, from a very non-rare grid and just wants to make some contacts? In asking the questions, I don't mean to say (as I stated earlier on this thread) that people never have to step aside for grid chasers. I'm only trying to show that it's not so easy for everyone as has been inferred.
Another comment I have is a fairly narrow concern that arose during the course of this thread. Some commenters have suggested that some folks shouldn't express their opinions because they don't show up in enough logbooks. This kind of attitude, at least to me, seems to reinforce the idea that a commentator made regarding the satellite community being somewhat closed off. Although experienced satellite operators' opinions should certainly be given weight, the opinion of someone who doesn't show up in enough logs but has expressed an interest in satellites and is a dues-paying AMSAT member shouldn't be ignored merely on that basis. After all, as another commenttator noted, it's not necessarily easy to get people to get into satellite operation and I'd hate to see new folks turned off by a cliquish attitude. Please understand that I'm not pointing fingers, but am just suggesting that all reasonable opinions need to be heard. I practiced law for 38 years, and I used to get some of my best ideas for my cases from my lay-clients. We need to listen because we don't know where the next good idea is going to originate.
That said, I had a lot of fun yesterday, turning on my satellite rig, hearing voices immediately, and realizing that my antenna array was pointing directly at AO-91 just a couple of minutes before LOS. Before it sunk below the horizon, I was able to work WD9EWK who was roving in a (I believe but don't know for sure because I can't tell which grid is which off the top of my head) not particularly active grid in Arizona. I've now worked Pat on about 5 different satellites over a number of years and I appreciate getting to work him on so many different birds (anyone remember AO-27? I worked Pat on that bird in 2006). After AO-91 dipped below the horizon, I looked at my tracking program and realized that I was in AO-7's footprint. I was able to work two SSB stations and one CW station throughout the rest of that pass. It's a hoot to work sophisticated satellites with a mode (CW) that lay people think is antiquated.
I say this just to try and tell you all that I truly love this hobby (especially the satellite aspect), and I have a lot of fun with it. That's why I care so much about this discussion.
73 de Bernie, KF0QS
On 12/13/2017 3:00 PM, kb2mjeff@att.net wrote:
There are two things that are sad about all of this is... The discussion about the FM satellites has been going on for as long as I've been working the sats, coming up on 30 years. Geez am I getting old. It will never change. What happens is as the newness of AO-91 wears off it will settle down. it always does Let's all be patient. The second thing is I wouldn't even be involved in this discussion, I know better but I elmered my good friend Russ kl1nk today on two passes of AO-91. The first pass low over the Caribbean went well, he made two contacts, the second high pass over the US was a disaster. He didn't make a single contact, as far as I can tell he wasn't even heard. He could not believe what a mess it was. I told him the SSB satellites were much more relaxed, but being retired on a fixed income, I don't think he has the money to invest in the required equipment. Trying to get new people interested in sat operation is a very hard sell. I had to almost beg him to take my Arrow antenna I loaned him home to work on it. Back to the linear birds for me :-)
73 Jeff kb2m
-----Original Message----- From: R.T.Liddy Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 4:30 PM To: AMSAT BB Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
KG5JUP,
The AMSAT BB is open to all & no membership/dues required.
Anyone can comment on whatever is posted on it, which you did.
Someone volunteered their time to summarize what many folks feel are good operating procedures. Without guidelines, there would continue to be the chaos on the FM Satellites that has been seen.
New people should appreciate having guidance on how to operate on a shared resource. Otherwise, they merely contribute to the chaos.
FYI, there is no voting on a volunteered set of guidelines. You either follow them or you don't. They aren't Rules.
You could have suggested a rewording of portions of the guidelines and asked for discussion and a reissue. Instead, you inferred that the SATs are being controlled by only certain individuals and they are whiners.
Now, why don't you tell the users here what you feel should be different in those guidelines based on your experience and observations. Then, people can comment on the pros and cons of your ideas. Perhaps, the guidelines can be improved.
TNX/73, Bob K8BL
P.S. Please sign your posts with your Name/Call so we know who you are.
From: kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com To: R.T.Liddy k8bl@ameritech.net; AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Hello there! I am one of the ones you speak of and my only issue was how the suvesstions were presented and that someone can just post to AMSAT site with out a vote or discussion.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message -------- From: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net Date: 12/13/17 12:20 (GMT-06:00) To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Dave,
Thanks for the good words about the reality of SAT operations.
Apparently, some people do not appreciate DX and/or Roving or Gridding QSOs on our Satellites. They don't realize or care that there is a LOT of time and expense involved with providing these contacts for other SAT users from rare locations.
Amazingly, it seems that some of the vocal folks are objecting to being reminded to use courtesy when the resources are busy with highly sought stations. There are very many SAT passes that are not busy at all. Is it that inconvenient to use those passes?
Even more amazing is that it has been pointed out that some of the objectors haven't been actual users of the Satellites. One would wonder why they are voicing objections in the first place.
Our hobby often has a problem getting folks to volunteer to do some of the needed tasks that we all would benefit from. Then, when someone steps forward to help with a needed task (writing an Operating Practice) there are folks that do nothing but complain about what that volunteer actually does! Go figure!!!
73 & Merry Christmas to ALL!!! de Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593)
From: David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Christopher,
I ask you the same question I asked another earlier in this thread: Do you
actually operate on the Amateur Satellites? I have checked my logs, and I
don't see you in them with your KG5JUP or your AA5EM call sign. Not saying
it's possible I could have missed you, but 5000 logged AMSAT QSOs since
2014 and you're not in them makes a fairly compelling case. Sean is not
trying pass a law by tyrannical decree here, he is an active operator who
has made a lot of contacts and been on both the chasing side and the DX
side of the QSO. He made a list of suggested guidelines based on his (and
other active ops) experiences, and he did a bang up job with it too. If
that rustles your jimmies too much, then maybe you should re-evaluate what
you're expecting by belonging to an organization like AMSAT.
Also - for those that have been around since before AO-91 - please go back
and reference the K0D operation I did with AC0RA last month. We activated
20 rares grids thru the Western Dakotas in 3 days. We only got on 3 FM
passes the entire trip. I got a lot of flack from FM only operators for
avoiding the repeater birds - but this thread is proof positive of exactly
why we did it that way. If folks get upset over asking for some courtesy
towards the rovers out there busting their tail off, that's fine. I for one
am done chasing grids now that I've got my 488 confirmed - and plan to put
some serious effort into roving the next few years. I'm happy to stick to
the linear birds only when on the road, if treating AO91 "like the extra
class" causes people to go to their safe spaces.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not
input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a handful of
individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when
convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite <
waisean@gmail.com>, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb]
FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
My presence or non presence on the birdies makes no difference. I am a paying member of AMSAT and I hold a ham license (like all of you) therefore my input SHOULD be of value. I am sorry I have disrupted the status quo and enraged the Satellite illuminati. I am going office until such time as I have been sent an RSVP to adult table. Yes my response is almost as childish and absurd what prompted it.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message --------From: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net Date: 12/13/17 12:20 (GMT-06:00) To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators Dave,
Thanks for the good words about the reality of SAT operations.
Apparently, some people do not appreciate DX and/or Roving or Gridding QSOs on our Satellites. They don't realize or care that there is a LOT of time and expense involved with providing these contacts for other SAT users from rare locations.
Amazingly, it seems that some of the vocal folks are objecting to being reminded to use courtesy when the resources are busy with highly sought stations. There are very many SAT passes that are not busy at all. Is it that inconvenient to use those passes?
Even more amazing is that it has been pointed out that some of the objectors haven't been actual users of the Satellites. One would wonder why they are voicing objections in the first place.
Our hobby often has a problem getting folks to volunteer to do some of the needed tasks that we all would benefit from. Then, when someone steps forward to help with a needed task (writing an Operating Practice) there are folks that do nothing but complain about what that volunteer actually does! Go figure!!!
73 & Merry Christmas to ALL!!! de Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593)
________________________________ From: David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Christopher,
I ask you the same question I asked another earlier in this thread: Do you
actually operate on the Amateur Satellites? I have checked my logs, and I
don't see you in them with your KG5JUP or your AA5EM call sign. Not saying
it's possible I could have missed you, but 5000 logged AMSAT QSOs since
2014 and you're not in them makes a fairly compelling case. Sean is not
trying pass a law by tyrannical decree here, he is an active operator who
has made a lot of contacts and been on both the chasing side and the DX
side of the QSO. He made a list of suggested guidelines based on his (and
other active ops) experiences, and he did a bang up job with it too. If
that rustles your jimmies too much, then maybe you should re-evaluate what
you're expecting by belonging to an organization like AMSAT.
Also - for those that have been around since before AO-91 - please go back
and reference the K0D operation I did with AC0RA last month. We activated
20 rares grids thru the Western Dakotas in 3 days. We only got on 3 FM
passes the entire trip. I got a lot of flack from FM only operators for
avoiding the repeater birds - but this thread is proof positive of exactly
why we did it that way. If folks get upset over asking for some courtesy
towards the rovers out there busting their tail off, that's fine. I for one
am done chasing grids now that I've got my 488 confirmed - and plan to put
some serious effort into roving the next few years. I'm happy to stick to
the linear birds only when on the road, if treating AO91 "like the extra
class" causes people to go to their safe spaces.
-Dave, KG5CCI
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not
input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a handful of
individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when
convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite <
waisean@gmail.com>, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb]
FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Err... huh? What does any of this have to do with an unofficial operators guide created by an active operator and Amsat member? Amsat didn’t create the guide. They just thought it good enough to share on the website, as many other member-generated articles have been for years. No one has to vote on what in the end is someone’s opinion! If anything, what Sean did by sharing here on the BB for peer review and suggestions seems like exactly what you’re asking for..
And, as you see from all but a few of the responses, virtually every active operator concurs with his suggested guidelines! This type of thing is best created by someone who has experience in the topic... and Sean does. I personally think he did a great job, and addressed some things that no one really has in writing for a number of years. It’s always great to see a fellow member contributing to everyone’s enjoyment of amateur satellites, instead of just endlessly talking about “some day someone ought to do something.”
73,
- Matthew nj4y
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 13, 2017, at 15:45, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
My presence or non presence on the birdies makes no difference. I am a paying member of AMSAT and I hold a ham license (like all of you) therefore my input SHOULD be of value. I am sorry I have disrupted the status quo and enraged the Satellite illuminati. I am going office until such time as I have been sent an RSVP to adult table. Yes my response is almost as childish and absurd what prompted it.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message --------From: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net Date: 12/13/17 12:20 (GMT-06:00) To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators Dave,
Thanks for the good words about the reality of SAT operations.
Apparently, some people do not appreciate DX and/or Roving or Gridding QSOs on our Satellites. They don't realize or care that there is a LOT of time and expense involved with providing these contacts for other SAT users from rare locations.
Amazingly, it seems that some of the vocal folks are objecting to being reminded to use courtesy when the resources are busy with highly sought stations. There are very many SAT passes that are not busy at all. Is it that inconvenient to use those passes?
Even more amazing is that it has been pointed out that some of the objectors haven't been actual users of the Satellites. One would wonder why they are voicing objections in the first place.
Our hobby often has a problem getting folks to volunteer to do some of the needed tasks that we all would benefit from. Then, when someone steps forward to help with a needed task (writing an Operating Practice) there are folks that do nothing but complain about what that volunteer actually does! Go figure!!!
73 & Merry Christmas to ALL!!! de Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593)
From: David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Christopher,
I ask you the same question I asked another earlier in this thread: Do you
actually operate on the Amateur Satellites? I have checked my logs, and I
don't see you in them with your KG5JUP or your AA5EM call sign. Not saying
it's possible I could have missed you, but 5000 logged AMSAT QSOs since
2014 and you're not in them makes a fairly compelling case. Sean is not
trying pass a law by tyrannical decree here, he is an active operator who
has made a lot of contacts and been on both the chasing side and the DX
side of the QSO. He made a list of suggested guidelines based on his (and
other active ops) experiences, and he did a bang up job with it too. If
that rustles your jimmies too much, then maybe you should re-evaluate what
you're expecting by belonging to an organization like AMSAT.
Also - for those that have been around since before AO-91 - please go back
and reference the K0D operation I did with AC0RA last month. We activated
20 rares grids thru the Western Dakotas in 3 days. We only got on 3 FM
passes the entire trip. I got a lot of flack from FM only operators for
avoiding the repeater birds - but this thread is proof positive of exactly
why we did it that way. If folks get upset over asking for some courtesy
towards the rovers out there busting their tail off, that's fine. I for one
am done chasing grids now that I've got my 488 confirmed - and plan to put
some serious effort into roving the next few years. I'm happy to stick to
the linear birds only when on the road, if treating AO91 "like the extra
class" causes people to go to their safe spaces.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not
input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a handful of
individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when
convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite <
waisean@gmail.com>, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb]
FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Correct. In the wake of the growing controversy over the crowded conditions on AO-91, Sean approached AMSAT with an article that he had wrote and it was published on the website. I don't believe it conveys or implies that it's conveying any sort of official guidelines. After all, AMSAT doesn't own every single channel satellite in orbit! It's just a document that explains some best practices for how to operate successfully on an FM satellite.
The bottom line is that the satellites are available for all amateurs for both recreation and experimentation. If everyone operates with courtesy, we can all successfully share these wonderful resources we have in orbit.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 4:05 PM, Matthew Stevens matthew@mrstevens.net wrote:
Err... huh? What does any of this have to do with an unofficial operators guide created by an active operator and Amsat member? Amsat didn’t create the guide. They just thought it good enough to share on the website, as many other member-generated articles have been for years. No one has to vote on what in the end is someone’s opinion! If anything, what Sean did by sharing here on the BB for peer review and suggestions seems like exactly what you’re asking for..
And, as you see from all but a few of the responses, virtually every active operator concurs with his suggested guidelines! This type of thing is best created by someone who has experience in the topic... and Sean does. I personally think he did a great job, and addressed some things that no one really has in writing for a number of years. It’s always great to see a fellow member contributing to everyone’s enjoyment of amateur satellites, instead of just endlessly talking about “some day someone ought to do something.”
73,
- Matthew nj4y
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 13, 2017, at 15:45, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
My presence or non presence on the birdies makes no difference. I am a paying member of AMSAT and I hold a ham license (like all of you) therefore my input SHOULD be of value. I am sorry I have disrupted the status quo and enraged the Satellite illuminati. I am going office until such time as I have been sent an RSVP to adult table. Yes my response is almost as childish and absurd what prompted it.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message --------From: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net Date: 12/13/17 12:20 (GMT-06:00) To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators Dave,
Thanks for the good words about the reality of SAT operations.
Apparently, some people do not appreciate DX and/or Roving or Gridding QSOs on our Satellites. They don't realize or care that there is a LOT of time and expense involved with providing these contacts for other SAT users from rare locations.
Amazingly, it seems that some of the vocal folks are objecting to being reminded to use courtesy when the resources are busy with highly sought stations. There are very many SAT passes that are not busy at all. Is it that inconvenient to use those passes?
Even more amazing is that it has been pointed out that some of the objectors haven't been actual users of the Satellites. One would wonder why they are voicing objections in the first place.
Our hobby often has a problem getting folks to volunteer to do some of the needed tasks that we all would benefit from. Then, when someone steps forward to help with a needed task (writing an Operating Practice) there are folks that do nothing but complain about what that volunteer actually does! Go figure!!!
73 & Merry Christmas to ALL!!! de Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593)
From: David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Christopher,
I ask you the same question I asked another earlier in this thread: Do you
actually operate on the Amateur Satellites? I have checked my logs, and I
don't see you in them with your KG5JUP or your AA5EM call sign. Not saying
it's possible I could have missed you, but 5000 logged AMSAT QSOs since
2014 and you're not in them makes a fairly compelling case. Sean is not
trying pass a law by tyrannical decree here, he is an active operator who
has made a lot of contacts and been on both the chasing side and the DX
side of the QSO. He made a list of suggested guidelines based on his (and
other active ops) experiences, and he did a bang up job with it too. If
that rustles your jimmies too much, then maybe you should re-evaluate what
you're expecting by belonging to an organization like AMSAT.
Also - for those that have been around since before AO-91 - please go back
and reference the K0D operation I did with AC0RA last month. We activated
20 rares grids thru the Western Dakotas in 3 days. We only got on 3 FM
passes the entire trip. I got a lot of flack from FM only operators for
avoiding the repeater birds - but this thread is proof positive of exactly
why we did it that way. If folks get upset over asking for some courtesy
towards the rovers out there busting their tail off, that's fine. I for one
am done chasing grids now that I've got my 488 confirmed - and plan to put
some serious effort into roving the next few years. I'm happy to stick to
the linear birds only when on the road, if treating AO91 "like the extra
class" causes people to go to their safe spaces.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not
input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a handful of
individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when
convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite <
waisean@gmail.com>, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb]
FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
There's the answer I sought AMSAT felt it belonged online and I agree.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Matthew Stevens matthew@mrstevens.net Date: 12/13/17 15:05 (GMT-06:00) To: kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com Cc: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators Err... huh? What does any of this have to do with an unofficial operators guide created by an active operator and Amsat member? Amsat didn’t create the guide. They just thought it good enough to share on the website, as many other member-generated articles have been for years. No one has to vote on what in the end is someone’s opinion! If anything, what Sean did by sharing here on the BB for peer review and suggestions seems like exactly what you’re asking for..
And, as you see from all but a few of the responses, virtually every active operator concurs with his suggested guidelines! This type of thing is best created by someone who has experience in the topic... and Sean does. I personally think he did a great job, and addressed some things that no one really has in writing for a number of years. It’s always great to see a fellow member contributing to everyone’s enjoyment of amateur satellites, instead of just endlessly talking about “some day someone ought to do something.”
73,
- Matthew nj4y
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 13, 2017, at 15:45, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
My presence or non presence on the birdies makes no difference. I am a paying member of AMSAT and I hold a ham license (like all of you) therefore my input SHOULD be of value. I am sorry I have disrupted the status quo and enraged the Satellite illuminati. I am going office until such time as I have been sent an RSVP to adult table. Yes my response is almost as childish and absurd what prompted it.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message --------From: "R.T.Liddy" k8bl@ameritech.net Date: 12/13/17 12:20 (GMT-06:00) To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators Dave,
Thanks for the good words about the reality of SAT operations.
Apparently, some people do not appreciate DX and/or Roving or Gridding QSOs on our Satellites. They don't realize or care that there is a LOT of time and expense involved with providing these contacts for other SAT users from rare locations.
Amazingly, it seems that some of the vocal folks are objecting to being reminded to use courtesy when the resources are busy with highly sought stations. There are very many SAT passes that are not busy at all. Is it that inconvenient to use those passes?
Even more amazing is that it has been pointed out that some of the objectors haven't been actual users of the Satellites. One would wonder why they are voicing objections in the first place.
Our hobby often has a problem getting folks to volunteer to do some of the needed tasks that we all would benefit from. Then, when someone steps forward to help with a needed task (writing an Operating Practice) there are folks that do nothing but complain about what that volunteer actually does! Go figure!!!
73 & Merry Christmas to ALL!!! de Bob K8BL (AMSAT #6593)
From: David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com To: AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
Christopher,
I ask you the same question I asked another earlier in this thread: Do you
actually operate on the Amateur Satellites? I have checked my logs, and I
don't see you in them with your KG5JUP or your AA5EM call sign. Not saying
it's possible I could have missed you, but 5000 logged AMSAT QSOs since
2014 and you're not in them makes a fairly compelling case. Sean is not
trying pass a law by tyrannical decree here, he is an active operator who
has made a lot of contacts and been on both the chasing side and the DX
side of the QSO. He made a list of suggested guidelines based on his (and
other active ops) experiences, and he did a bang up job with it too. If
that rustles your jimmies too much, then maybe you should re-evaluate what
you're expecting by belonging to an organization like AMSAT.
Also - for those that have been around since before AO-91 - please go back
and reference the K0D operation I did with AC0RA last month. We activated
20 rares grids thru the Western Dakotas in 3 days. We only got on 3 FM
passes the entire trip. I got a lot of flack from FM only operators for
avoiding the repeater birds - but this thread is proof positive of exactly
why we did it that way. If folks get upset over asking for some courtesy
towards the rovers out there busting their tail off, that's fine. I for one
am done chasing grids now that I've got my 488 confirmed - and plan to put
some serious effort into roving the next few years. I'm happy to stick to
the linear birds only when on the road, if treating AO91 "like the extra
class" causes people to go to their safe spaces.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM, kg5jup kg5jup@gmail.com wrote:
I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not
input. I am a paying member I had no input. Honest feel like a handful of
individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when
convent and whine when they don't get their way.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" <
amsat-bb@amsat.org> Date: 12/12/17 21:48 (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite <
waisean@gmail.com>, AMSAT BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb]
FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
Beginning and Experienced Operators
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
This all times back to part 97 rules the bands belong to everyone but a courtesy nod to DX chasers would be nice. Personally the birds are not taught enough in ham testing nor is repeater operation. The only rules we need are part 97 and common sense.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Sean Waite waisean@gmail.com Date: 12/12/17 20:15 (GMT-06:00) To: "Devin L. Ganger" devin@thecabal.org Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators Bow ties are cool, too.
So we have a bunch of other uses for the birds. How does this fit into rule 6? Do rare grids make way for DX? Does DX make way for NBEMS?
I'm new to the satellite game, so I don't really have an opinion, but maybe there is more discussion here than a simple dismissal. Maybe not. Almost every grid is a new grid for me.
Sean WA1TE
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017, 20:31 Devin L. Ganger devin@thecabal.org wrote:
There's the "Doctor Who" reason:
Satellites are COOL.
-- Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG) email: devin@thecabal.org web: Devin on Earth cell: +1 425.239.2575
-----Original Message----- From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Mac A. Cody Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 5:12 PM To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators
I would hope that another reason for working the satellites is experimentation to broaden the applications of amateur satellites. This is seen, of late, with the resurgence of 'Experimenter's Wednesday' on AO-85. I would like to see more experimentation in other areas. Here are some examples and I'm sure that there are others:
o Use of LEO satellites for emergency response traffic (e.g. Narrow Band Emergency Messaging Software - NBEMS).
o Use/development of alternative modulation schemes on linear transponder satellites to enable more efficient use or lower the barrier to access (e.g. double-sideband modulation, digital voice, low-power digital modes).
o Development and test of homebrew satellite ground stations to lower the barrier to working amateur satellites (e.g. antenna systems, filters, amplifiers, full-duplex transceivers).
73,
Mac Cody - AE5PH
On 12/12/2017 06:36 PM, Sean Waite wrote:
I'll bite. As far as I can tell, there are 2 main reasons for working the satellites. Chasing grids and making contacts via space. This includes both these acts as well as the fun of overcoming the challenges of doing the same.
Maybe Zach has a third option that we haven't considered, one that is contrary to the grid hunt. Rag chews aren't really viable due to the limited resource and short time, but there could be something else.
73, Sean WA1TE
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017, 19:05 Jeff Johns jeff30339@gmail.com wrote:
I don’t have him on my logs either.
Jeff WE4B
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017, David Swanson dave@druidnetworks.com wrote:
Zach,
Do you avoid Satellites too? I've looked thru my logs and I don't have
your
call in there. I've asked a few other prolific ops and they lack a QSO
with
you as well. Just curious why the strong feelings on Item 6 if you're not active on the birds.
73,
Dave, KG5CCI
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Zach Metzinger zmetzing@pobox.com wrote:
On 12/12/17 14:25, John KI4RO wrote:
Just like rare DX Zach...you must be a great operator on HF
too...Ugh!
73 John KI4RO
John,
I generally avoid 160 meters, as there are too many on there who resort to disparaging insults.
73,
--- Zach N0ZGO
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of
AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
membership.
Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect
the official views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb _______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
participants (22)
-
Bernie and Cheryl -
Bill Dillon -
David Swanson -
Devin L. Ganger -
Gabriel Zeifman -
Greg -
Jeff Johns -
Jerry Buxton -
John KI4RO -
KA9QJG -
kb2mjeff＠att.net -
kg5jup -
Mac A. Cody -
Matthew Stevens -
Mike Diehl -
Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) -
Paul Stoetzer -
R.T.Liddy -
Sean K. -
Sean Waite -
Ted -
Zach Metzinger